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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2020 :  04:03:42  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:
Of all the great and mighty fighters and warriors and spellblades, and bladesingers and Duskblades and spellsingers and Sword-maidens, and heroic Scouts and Rangers, Druids and Clerics. Of all the Mighty who have fallen and yet stand. who would you choose as best fighter ever?

Choices:

Drizzt Do''Urdun.
Artemis Entreri.
Drasek Riven.
Zaknafein Do''Urdun
Xelbon Lu''''''''nrae
Elaith Craulnober
Melandrach
Tarnheel Embuirhan
Starbrow Malruth
Kelvhan Olortynnal
Grandmaster Kane
Jarlaxle baenrae.

(Anonymous Vote)

Edited by - Copper Elven Vampire on 09 May 2020 05:04:12

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1421 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2020 :  04:12:39  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None of them.

Abordabe, Zaknafein, Azoun, Eltargrim and Shuruppak are all better fighters.

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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2020 :  04:25:29  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I understand I didn't name all the classic fighters in FR history. Just choose from this limited list. It's all the choice you're given.
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
226 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2020 :  11:24:52  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Request for a Moderator to change the spelling of canon in the title.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1421 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2020 :  13:28:57  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see a distinct lack of canon characters, namely because Laeirlefain Starleaf isn't a canon NPC. He's one of CEV's own creations.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35986 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2020 :  16:34:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane

Request for a Moderator to change the spelling of canon in the title.



I generally allow typos to stand, unless the subject matter is something someone would actively search for and thus miss because of a typo.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 May 2020 16:35:17
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
661 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2020 :  21:56:14  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are we using a particular edition of rules? I believe CEV prefers 3.5 edition, but am happy to stand publicly corrected. Enteri, Drizzt and Kane tend to follow Salvatore novel rules rather than any particular edition.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11163 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  01:56:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, is that's Drizzt Do'urden's cousin? Maybe Fflar's cousin too? Does Drasik know the rogue named Drasek Riven? There's at least 5 others that I just go "who"?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  05:20:49  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From my understanding, it's been pretty clear that most of the warriors are so close in capability and items that a lot of time it's up to luck (dice rolls) and other outside factors.

Not to mention that a LOT of these characters have about +40 plot armor to make a great story so it really comes down to how you want to write it.

Honestly, Drizzt is at 21st level in 1479 DR (4e rules) and has a staggering 764 HP. Those stats are supposed to make him a Solo challenge against 5 separate player characters (should they so choose to fight him). In 5e, I dunno if they statted him or not or if there's a good NPC write-up for 5e?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35986 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  05:34:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

There's at least 5 others that I just go "who"?



Yeah, I've no clue who five of the listed names are, myself.

Of the remaining names, one I know of but I've not read anything he's in. Two I like -- though one wouldn't be anyone's pick for the best fighter -- and the remaining ones I simply don't care about.

Also, if I was picking the best fighter, I'd stick to members of the Warrior classes. I know one person on this list isn't a warrior-type at all, and I suspect others aren't, either. If the category was broadened to "melee combatant", then that would be a different story.

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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1421 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  05:52:43  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Starleaf dude is one of CEV's own NPCs. I'm guessing a lot of the more bizarre names aren't canon outside of CEV's own table.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
661 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  08:22:52  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are three characters I do not recognize at all. Google searches turned up with nothing at all.
  • Jessidiia Orlortynnal
  • Rassiitass Moonglammar
  • Xelbon Lu''nrae

CEV, could you please jog our memories and tell us which sources mention these names? We cannot rate those we cannot recognize.

It looks as if Laeirlefain Starleaf ia a member of CEV's Rogues of the Laughing Midnight.

Edit: I just read Lord of Bones' message about Starleaf and obscure names. If that is the case, then my request is moot.

Edited by - Delnyn on 03 May 2020 13:02:38
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  12:11:04  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would say any fighters with more than 20 levels are roughly equal and down to equipment and luck to see who wins. If we strip out non-fighter classes (like Kane) I am not sure where a complete list of 20+ level fighters are (I'm using 2nd edition terms here cause I'm over 40). Ones I believe were all statted as higher than 20th level fighter, and would be in my list to pick from:

Azoun IV
Naergoth Bladelord
Zaknafein
Eltan of the Flaming Fist
Yamun Kahan
Harmel Artru (not statted that I can find but listed by Ed as the best "swordsman" in the Realms in 1375, ahead of Drizzt & Artemis by a lot in his words)
King Obould

There's a lot more to add I'm sure but it's hard to find stats on the 20th level + pure fighters.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3241 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  13:21:40  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


Honestly, Drizzt is at 21st level in 1479 DR (4e rules) and has a staggering 764 HP. Those stats are supposed to make him a Solo challenge against 5 separate player characters (should they so choose to fight him). In 5e, I dunno if they statted him or not or if there's a good NPC write-up for 5e?


I believe he is an 8th level fighter in 5E...

https://www.enworld.org/threads/check-out-drizzt-dourdens-5e-character-sheet.663761/

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 03 May 2020 13:26:11
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  14:13:57  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


Honestly, Drizzt is at 21st level in 1479 DR (4e rules) and has a staggering 764 HP. Those stats are supposed to make him a Solo challenge against 5 separate player characters (should they so choose to fight him). In 5e, I dunno if they statted him or not or if there's a good NPC write-up for 5e?


I believe he is an 8th level fighter in 5E...

https://www.enworld.org/threads/check-out-drizzt-dourdens-5e-character-sheet.663761/



Well Chris stated it wouldn't be fair to bring a 15th level character to an 8th level party, hence the demotion in power. Also, considering how 5e treats NPCs, it's more than likely that Drizzt has over 18 to 20 Hit Die if he's to be a challenge for level 9+ PCs. Just for comparison's sake - an Archdruid NPC listed in Volo's Guide - has 24 HD (132 HP), casts 9th level spells, and shape changes - yet is still only has a Challenge Rating of 12. The Champion NPC (the premiere Fighter) has 22 HD (143 HP) and is only a CR 9.

So in other words it doesn't make too much sense.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
661 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  14:16:31  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

From my understanding, it's been pretty clear that most of the warriors are so close in capability and items that a lot of time it's up to luck (dice rolls) and other outside factors.

Not to mention that a LOT of these characters have about +40 plot armor to make a great story so it really comes down to how you want to write it.

Honestly, Drizzt is at 21st level in 1479 DR (4e rules) and has a staggering 764 HP. Those stats are supposed to make him a Solo challenge against 5 separate player characters (should they so choose to fight him). In 5e, I dunno if they statted him or not or if there's a good NPC write-up for 5e?



The 4e FRCG (p. 251 at bottom) lists Jarlaxle as a Level 21 Elite Skirmisher with 392 HP at full health. Why would Drizzt evidently be a Solo challenge (764 HP sounds over the top) when Jarlaxle is "only" an Elite?
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  14:34:24  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn


The 4e FRCG (p. 251 at bottom) lists Jarlaxle as a Level 21 Elite Skirmisher with 392 HP at full health. Why would Drizzt evidently be a Solo challenge (764 HP sounds over the top) when Jarlaxle is "only" an Elite?



The Role of the character plays a stronger part in determining HP than the character's level. For example, a level 7 Solo monster (I picked Agera of the Shadow Face, Dungeon #169) has 316 HP. The concept is that these guys are supposed to be stand alone encounters with little support and face off against 4-6 player characters. In terms of action economy, the PCs have MUCH better odds because they have multiple rounds of actions vs the Monsters 1 turn.

Edit: oh, and Jarlaxle is an Elite probably because he's never without aid from Bregan D'earthe. So he likely has Drow scouts, mages, and fighters to help pitch in should he be drawn into a fight.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 03 May 2020 14:37:25
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2020 :  19:14:02  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had some hicckups... resolved now. No homebrew NPC's involved. Just canon entries.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2020 :  05:02:49  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I forgot about Shuurpackk? (SP)
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1421 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2020 :  09:35:59  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kane is a monk, and who are Xelborn and Starbrow?
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2020 :  15:02:07  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fflar Starbrow

An elven warrior during the fall of Myth Drannor, died in it's defense but brought back to life for the Crusade to reclaim Myth Drannor in 1374 DR.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35986 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2020 :  16:55:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


Honestly, Drizzt is at 21st level in 1479 DR (4e rules) and has a staggering 764 HP. Those stats are supposed to make him a Solo challenge against 5 separate player characters (should they so choose to fight him). In 5e, I dunno if they statted him or not or if there's a good NPC write-up for 5e?


I believe he is an 8th level fighter in 5E...

https://www.enworld.org/threads/check-out-drizzt-dourdens-5e-character-sheet.663761/



Well Chris stated it wouldn't be fair to bring a 15th level character to an 8th level party, hence the demotion in power. Also, considering how 5e treats NPCs, it's more than likely that Drizzt has over 18 to 20 Hit Die if he's to be a challenge for level 9+ PCs. Just for comparison's sake - an Archdruid NPC listed in Volo's Guide - has 24 HD (132 HP), casts 9th level spells, and shape changes - yet is still only has a Challenge Rating of 12. The Champion NPC (the premiere Fighter) has 22 HD (143 HP) and is only a CR 9.

So in other words it doesn't make too much sense.



This is part of why I've never liked having novel characters statted… They often change wildly, even within a single edition.

Drizzt Do'Urden, in 2nd edition, was a 10th-level ranger (Hall of Heroes, 1989), a 15th-level ranger (Menzoberranzan, 1992), then 16th level (Heroes' Lorebook, 1996; Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set, 1993; The North boxed set, 1996). And sure, you can say he gained levels... But it's odd to pick up 5 levels in 3 years, then 1 level a year later, and then none for 4 years.

On top of that, as soon as 3E came out, he was Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 -- the same number of levels, and a better fit, perhaps, but still a demotion as a ranger.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 May 2020 16:56:38
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2020 :  19:19:43  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This is part of why I've never liked having novel characters statted… They often change wildly, even within a single edition.


In my later years playing D&D, I find myself agreeing with your sentiment 100%. Simply put, I can probably homebrew a better version that what WotC has put out - and usually do.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Drizzt Do'Urden, in 2nd edition, was a 10th-level ranger (Hall of Heroes, 1989), a 15th-level ranger (Menzoberranzan, 1992), then 16th level (Heroes' Lorebook, 1996; Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set, 1993; The North boxed set, 1996). And sure, you can say he gained levels... But it's odd to pick up 5 levels in 3 years, then 1 level a year later, and then none for 4 years.


Are those years paralleled in Realms years? I always got that aspect confusing, to be honest. Maybe some of those years in between were merely months in Realms-time?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

On top of that, as soon as 3E came out, he was Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 -- the same number of levels, and a better fit, perhaps, but still a demotion as a ranger.



I chalk up his.....I'm going to be nice and just say odd.... level/stats in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting to the point that they really hadn't released anything else for 3.0 at the time besides the Players Handbook WHEN they were writing the FRCS. So the designers really had nothing else to use in terms of mechanics aside from that supplement AND the FRCS (hence feats like Twin Sword Style). No appropriate Prestige Classes, worse feat selection, no Daylight Adaptation (from the Player's Guide to Faerūn).

As I re-did his stat block once, I did so under the pretense of keeping the levels and classes exactly the same. Were I to re-do him completely, He'd probably be a Warblade/Ranger/Dervish combination of levels, as to hit that CR 19 spot. I'd probably give him some sort of martial maneuver that mimics his cross-down parry kick he used against Zaknafein as well.

I also find it strange that in the century jump from 1374 DR to 1479 DR he only went from a challenge of 19 to a challenge of 21 in 4E. The levels aren't exactly reflective of time spent and certainly one could say that because he's a "solo" encounter, that his power level is ramped up considerably. But still - I think he was a little low for that time in between.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2020 :  00:21:31  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This is part of why I've never liked having novel characters statted… They often change wildly, even within a single edition.


In my later years playing D&D, I find myself agreeing with your sentiment 100%. Simply put, I can probably homebrew a better version that what WotC has put out - and usually do.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Drizzt Do'Urden, in 2nd edition, was a 10th-level ranger (Hall of Heroes, 1989), a 15th-level ranger (Menzoberranzan, 1992), then 16th level (Heroes' Lorebook, 1996; Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set, 1993; The North boxed set, 1996). And sure, you can say he gained levels... But it's odd to pick up 5 levels in 3 years, then 1 level a year later, and then none for 4 years.


Are those years paralleled in Realms years? I always got that aspect confusing, to be honest. Maybe some of those years in between were merely months in Realms-time?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

On top of that, as soon as 3E came out, he was Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 -- the same number of levels, and a better fit, perhaps, but still a demotion as a ranger.



I chalk up his.....I'm going to be nice and just say odd.... level/stats in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting to the point that they really hadn't released anything else for 3.0 at the time besides the Players Handbook WHEN they were writing the FRCS. So the designers really had nothing else to use in terms of mechanics aside from that supplement AND the FRCS (hence feats like Twin Sword Style). No appropriate Prestige Classes, worse feat selection, no Daylight Adaptation (from the Player's Guide to Faerūn).

As I re-did his stat block once, I did so under the pretense of keeping the levels and classes exactly the same. Were I to re-do him completely, He'd probably be a Warblade/Ranger/Dervish combination of levels, as to hit that CR 19 spot. I'd probably give him some sort of martial maneuver that mimics his cross-down parry kick he used against Zaknafein as well.

I also find it strange that in the century jump from 1374 DR to 1479 DR he only went from a challenge of 19 to a challenge of 21 in 4E. The levels aren't exactly reflective of time spent and certainly one could say that because he's a "solo" encounter, that his power level is ramped up considerably. But still - I think he was a little low for that time in between.



I agree.
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Kusghuul
Acolyte

Norway
33 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2020 :  12:15:03  Show Profile Send Kusghuul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whomever the author needs to win for the plot to progress?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6420 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2020 :  12:38:04  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Harmel Artru.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
745 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2020 :  00:58:21  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This whole thing is really confusing
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2020 :  04:12:35  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What about Keryth Blackhelm? General of the armies of Evermeet? I don't think any stats have been made for him. A long time friend and adventuring companion of Zoar Moonflower.

For that matter... what about Zoar Moonflower? in 2ED i can picture him being around the levels of Ranger 20. Plus the Moonflower Moonblade to boot? In 3.5ED I would put Zoar around Ranger 20/ Weapon Master 10 of Corellon Larethian.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1421 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2020 :  13:16:20  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keryth is a 13th level fighter.

Zoar's only claim to fame is his early promotion. Wielding a powerful moonblade is not a reflection of his strength, no more than Frodo wielding the One Ring would put him on par with Sauron. He shouldn't be above the 20th level dragonrider and that 25/19 fighter wizard in terms of martial strength, plus his murderer was in turn murdered by a 9th level character.

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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2020 :  22:17:19  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Keryth is a 13th level fighter.

Zoar's only claim to fame is his early promotion. Wielding a powerful moonblade is not a reflection of his strength, no more than Frodo wielding the One Ring would put him on par with Sauron. He shouldn't be above the 20th level dragonrider and that 25/19 fighter wizard in terms of martial strength, plus his murderer was in turn murdered by a 9th level character.





Understood. Makes a good point. Sometimes a 2'nd level assassin can take down a 14'th level mage. I get what you're saying.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2020 :  22:23:42  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Keryth is a 13th level fighter.

Zoar's only claim to fame is his early promotion. Wielding a powerful moonblade is not a reflection of his strength, no more than Frodo wielding the One Ring would put him on par with Sauron. He shouldn't be above the 20th level dragonrider and that 25/19 fighter wizard in terms of martial strength, plus his murderer was in turn murdered by a 9th level character.





Yes, Jaques Renoit, took down the Marquis De Sade with pen and paper.

Unfortunate to diviants like myself... lol.

The Marquis de Sade probably didn't expect foul play from a participant and ex-patriot. But such happens when you make friends.
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