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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2020 :  08:40:12  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Did anything ever come of the hints that Eilestree and Vhaeraun had merged?

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.

cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2020 :  00:38:00  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe keftiu,

This is all I could find on the matter:

quote:
Chaos and despair spread among the followers of the Masked Lord, but some thought that their god was still alive, and that the twins had a plan and agreed to merge and work together against their mother for a time. Others were convinced that Vhaeraun had succeeded and was disguised as Eilistraee. Either way, it was certain that after the event, Eilistraee was changed: she held both her brother's and her own portfolios, she gained the title of "Masked Lady", and caused her followers and Vhaeraun's to cooperate, albeit uneasily.(GHotR, pp.158-9, and Sacrifice of the Widow)


There is also a note from the FR Wiki that says the following:

quote:
The Grand History of the Realms explicitly says that Vhaeraun's assassination attempt failed and Eilistraee killed him. However, in one of his answers, Ed Greenwood suggests that Eilistraee actually spared her brother's life. The Dark Maiden defeated Vhaeraun with the indirect help of her ally Mystra, as the Weave frustrated the Masked Lord's magic while enhancing Eilistraee's. The goddess temporarily took her brother's portfolio, and trapped his sentience in the Weave, where it was enfolded in a dream by Mystra. The Lady of Mysteries did that to ensure that the two drow siblings would survive the cataclysm that she knew was coming—the Spellplague—in which she would be "killed" to renew the Weave, and magic would go wild.(https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee#cite_note-59)


Best regards, and I hope that helps a little.





quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Did anything ever come of the hints that Eilestree and Vhaeraun had merged?


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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
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Posted - 04 Mar 2020 :  16:51:32  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They never merged. Eilistraee borrowed Vhaeraun's portfolio (which includes drow males, thievery, and evil activities--stuff like assassinations, sabotages, "terrorism", slavery, and other criminal things) for 4 years. After their re-emergence (they survived thanks to some shenaningans with Mystra, but were powerless for a century or so), both siblings gained back their old portfolios (well, Eilistraee also got freedom in addition to her old portfolios).

Honestly, though, Eilistraee as the Masked Lady would be a huge waste (and also a lost possibility IMHO).

Some might say that it was a kind of growth, that Eilistraee needed to abandon idealism and such (not that there was much of that in Smedman's version, which warped the character into a lite version of Lolth, and that has been--righfully--retconned,for it was an ugly retcon itself). I've read some people saying that the only way for her to start to get "things done" was the "merge" with Vhaeraun. However it's definitely not the case, especially because that kind of (non-)growth defeats one of the most compelling aspects of her character and story.

Eilistraee's not some starry-eyed girl who follows vague or frivolous ideals like some seem to believe; she knows far too well how hard her path is, and has seen and felt the weight of pain first-hand. However, while this goddess is more than aware that the world is far from bright and happy, she also firmly believes that the possibility for joy exists even at the height of suffering, and she wants all--especially the drow--to see and find it.

Eilistraee chose to share the fate of her people and be one of them. She sacrificed luxury, comfort, and safety, just so that she could be by their side when they would need her the most. She made that choice knowing what was awaiting her (quite literally; she had foreseen it), that she would bleed for her decision during the centuries and fight alone against forces far grater than her, but she still did it. And despite acknowledging the kind of reality that she was facing, despite all the struggles and losses, not only she has never stopped standing for her people, but she never let her light fade. She never became jaded or ruthless "because that's how you get things done". She kept on loving and dreaming and teaching the drow to do the same; turned her "scars" into lights for her people.

The Dark Maiden embodies the hope that the drow have to find a better existence, to rise above their pain and demons and smile to life. All that because she's one of them: she shared that battle--she "knows" how things actually are--yet she still has the strength to find the beauty in what was broken, where no one else would even bother, and does all she can to heal it and make it flourish. She teaches the drow to do the same, proves to them that they can do it too--because she, a drow like them, does it.

Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother that she can still find and give despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.

Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's portfolio? She lost all that, because she lost the focus on what the drow were denied, and became much more focused on stuff like assassination, intrigue, subterfuge--i.e. more of the same thing that gets forced on Lolthite drow every instant of their life. The Masked Lady comes off as just about killing Lolth, which is incredibly shallow and untrue to her character (although Smedman's/Athans' never saw anything more than that in her). It also isn't true to Ed's version of her--and say all you want about Ed's writing, he can create compelling worlds and characters, and Eilistraee's one of the most compelling characters I've come across, while Vhaeraun is one of the most compelling villains.

The missed opportunity with the Masked Lady thing is for more development of her character and Vhaeraun's. It would have been awesome (to me) to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun trying to get past their differences and working together against their mother, learning from each other (and their followers alongside them), rather than Eilistraee simply taking Vhaeraun's power and adding it to hers, and that having consequences on her. However, while Ed did indeed say that Eilistraee spared her borther and only pretended with Lolth to have killed him, the chance to see an actual cooperation on screen was squandered in favor of magicking up changes.

I mean, such kind of development is possible once again in the present era, as both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are currently very active, but WotC has stopped the novel line except for Drizzt, so it isn't likely.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Mar 2020 17:07:18
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cpthero2
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Posted - 04 Mar 2020 :  18:18:20  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Irennan,

First: thanks for the very thorough explanation! Now on to my questions! :)

quote:
They never merged. Eilistraee borrowed Vhaeraun's portfolio (which includes drow males, thievery, and evil activities--stuff like assassinations, sabotages, "terrorism", slavery, and other criminal things) for 4 years.


So, was that a willing "borrowing" of the portfolio so they could mess with Lolth?

quote:
After their re-emergence (they survived thanks to some shenaningans with Mystra, but were powerless for a century or so), both siblings gained back their old portfolios (well, Eilistraee also got freedom in addition to her old portfolios).


Do you know if this includes any sort of alliance with Mystra then?

quote:
Honestly, though, Eilistraee as the Masked Lady would be a huge waste (and also a lost possibility IMHO).


I would love to hear your views on this statement, as I tend to go along with the latter half of that statement than the fore. I think with that much power and influence she could really strike at the establishment of Lolth and strive for change that they both clearly want (both deities I mean).

quote:
...especially because that kind of (non-)growth defeats one of the most compelling aspects of her character and story.


Well, wouldn't that just make her more compelling though? I think it would. Consider her ethical outlooks. Her idealism was lofty, and she recognized that, so she had to do a little "toughening" up to get the job done, is the outlook I take. It's like the idea of pacifism when the orcs are at your door raping, pillaging and murdering. You can either sit there and take it like a good Eldathan priest, or you can get your bow staff out and whoop some Orc up, because they are not going to stop, now matter how much you reason. That seems to be the kind of idea behind what motivated Eilistraee to go down the road she did.

quote:
Eilistraee's not some starry-eyed girl who follows vague or frivolous ideals like some seem to believe; she knows far too well how hard her path is, and has seen and felt the weight of pain first-hand. However, while this goddess is more than aware that the world is far from bright and happy, she also firmly believes that the possibility for joy exists even at the height of suffering, and she wants all--especially the drow--to see and find it.


Well, it seems I and many others than do agree here. She was a little starry eyes, which is why "some might say that it was a kind of growth, that Eilistraee needed to abandon idealism..." She was idealistic, and that is why many felt she was starry eyed. She had to get out there, and tear it up a bit. Borrowing the Vhaerun's portfolio definitely could help with that looking at the savageness of it.

quote:
The Dark Maiden embodies the hope that the drow have to find a better existence, to rise above their pain and demons and smile to life. All that because she's one of them: she shared that battle--she "knows" how things actually are--yet she still has the strength to find the beauty in what was broken, where no one else would even bother, and does all she can to heal it and make it flourish. She teaches the drow to do the same, proves to them that they can do it too--because she, a drow like them, does it.


Ideals are great, but at the end of the day outcomes matter too. I am not saying adopt a Utilitarian perspective. Rather, I am saying there clearly needs to be a hybrid model that doesn't really seem to have been adopted and been successful to date, of particular note that I can recall anyhow.

quote:
Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother that she can still find and give despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.


Absolutely, I agree. It is motivation. It gives these Drow something to fight for. However, it doesn't drop your opponent on the battlefield. It doesn't conjure up the lust for destruction of your enemy required to lay them low and destroy their reasons for existence, so that you yourself can exist. She needs to have a bit more of that in her, than she has had in the past is what I am arguing for.

quote:
Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's portfolio? She lost all that, because she lost the focus on what the drow were denied, and became much more focused on stuff like assassination, intrigue, subterfuge--i.e. more of the same thing that gets forced on Lolthite drow every instant of their life. The Masked Lady comes off as just about killing Lolth, which is incredibly shallow and untrue to her character (although Smedman's/Athans' never saw anything more than that in her). It also isn't true to Ed's version of her--and say all you want about Ed's writing, he can create compelling worlds and characters, and Eilistraee's one of the most compelling characters I've come across, while Vhaeraun is one of the most compelling villains.


Killing is ugly. War is nasty. You don't go in and come out clean, or with the same mindset you did when you went. Things change dramatically. I think that is the very quintessential definition and outcome of wisdom: you realize it wasn't like you thought, because you experienced it and now you know better. It doesn't mean the ideals have to be destroyed though. You just have to give a little to get some back on the back end though.

quote:
The missed opportunity with the Masked Lady thing is for more development of her character and Vhaeraun's. It would have been awesome (to me) to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun trying to get past their differences and working together against their mother, learning from each other (and their followers alongside them), rather than Eilistraee simply taking Vhaeraun's power and adding it to hers, and that having consequences on her. However, while Ed did indeed say that Eilistraee spared her borther and only pretended with Lolth to have killed him, the chance to see an actual cooperation on screen was squandered in favor of magicking up changes.


I agree that sounds nice. I just don't know how that would have been in the cards though in light of how Vhaeraun was/is. I was thinking the the compassionate side of Eilistraee would have been enough to temper the vile nature of Vhaerun, but alas, we will not know. :)

I look forward to your reply!

Best regards,







quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

They never merged. Eilistraee borrowed Vhaeraun's portfolio (which includes drow males, thievery, and evil activities--stuff like assassinations, sabotages, "terrorism", slavery, and other criminal things) for 4 years. After their re-emergence (they survived thanks to some shenaningans with Mystra, but were powerless for a century or so), both siblings gained back their old portfolios (well, Eilistraee also got freedom in addition to her old portfolios).

Honestly, though, Eilistraee as the Masked Lady would be a huge waste (and also a lost possibility IMHO).

Some might say that it was a kind of growth, that Eilistraee needed to abandon idealism and such (not that there was much of that in Smedman's version, which warped the character into a lite version of Lolth, and that has been--righfully--retconned,for it was an ugly retcon itself). I've read some people saying that the only way for her to start to get "things done" was the "merge" with Vhaeraun. However it's definitely not the case, especially because that kind of (non-)growth defeats one of the most compelling aspects of her character and story.

Eilistraee's not some starry-eyed girl who follows vague or frivolous ideals like some seem to believe; she knows far too well how hard her path is, and has seen and felt the weight of pain first-hand. However, while this goddess is more than aware that the world is far from bright and happy, she also firmly believes that the possibility for joy exists even at the height of suffering, and she wants all--especially the drow--to see and find it.

Eilistraee chose to share the fate of her people and be one of them. She sacrificed luxury, comfort, and safety, just so that she could be by their side when they would need her the most. She made that choice knowing what was awaiting her (quite literally; she had foreseen it), that she would bleed for her decision during the centuries and fight alone against forces far grater than her, but she still did it. And despite acknowledging the kind of reality that she was facing, despite all the struggles and losses, not only she has never stopped standing for her people, but she never let her light fade. She never became jaded or ruthless "because that's how you get things done". She kept on loving and dreaming and teaching the drow to do the same; turned her "scars" into lights for her people.

The Dark Maiden embodies the hope that the drow have to find a better existence, to rise above their pain and demons and smile to life. All that because she's one of them: she shared that battle--she "knows" how things actually are--yet she still has the strength to find the beauty in what was broken, where no one else would even bother, and does all she can to heal it and make it flourish. She teaches the drow to do the same, proves to them that they can do it too--because she, a drow like them, does it.

Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother that she can still find and give despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.

Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's portfolio? She lost all that, because she lost the focus on what the drow were denied, and became much more focused on stuff like assassination, intrigue, subterfuge--i.e. more of the same thing that gets forced on Lolthite drow every instant of their life. The Masked Lady comes off as just about killing Lolth, which is incredibly shallow and untrue to her character (although Smedman's/Athans' never saw anything more than that in her). It also isn't true to Ed's version of her--and say all you want about Ed's writing, he can create compelling worlds and characters, and Eilistraee's one of the most compelling characters I've come across, while Vhaeraun is one of the most compelling villains.

The missed opportunity with the Masked Lady thing is for more development of her character and Vhaeraun's. It would have been awesome (to me) to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun trying to get past their differences and working together against their mother, learning from each other (and their followers alongside them), rather than Eilistraee simply taking Vhaeraun's power and adding it to hers, and that having consequences on her. However, while Ed did indeed say that Eilistraee spared her borther and only pretended with Lolth to have killed him, the chance to see an actual cooperation on screen was squandered in favor of magicking up changes.

I mean, such kind of development is possible once again in the present era, as both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are currently very active, but WotC has stopped the novel line except for Drizzt, so it isn't likely.


Higher Atlar
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 04 Mar 2020 :  21:35:12  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, there was and there has always been an alliance with Mystra (at least on Eilistraee's side). Mystra commands her followers to promote the growth of magic everywhere, which includes encouraging the development of spellcraft among races with high affinity to magic, like the drow, and nurturing them. It's one more reason for the Lady of Mysteries to choose the Dark Maiden as a friend, and to oppose Lolth, because Lolth's ridiculous society only stifles growth and promotes censorship, strife and stagnation--the nemesis of any form of development. Vhaeraun didn't lend his portfolio willingly, he tried to kill Eilistraee, but Eilistraee defeated him with the indirect help of Mystra, and chose to spare him: he was encased in a dream within the Weave, and Eilistraee "borrowed" his portfolio for 4 years (by borrow I only mean that she took it temporarily, sorry for any misunderstandings). This was part of a plan that Mystra had devised to ensure the survival of Eilistraee, among her other divine friends, to the coming upheaval that she had foreseen (the Spellplague).

------------------

quote:
Well, wouldn't that just make her more compelling though? I think it would. Consider her ethical outlooks. Her idealism was lofty, and she recognized that, so she had to do a little "toughening" up to get the job done, is the outlook I take. It's like the idea of pacifism when the orcs are at your door raping, pillaging and murdering. You can either sit there and take it like a good Eldathan priest, or you can get your bow staff out and whoop some Orc up, because they are not going to stop, now matter how much you reason. That seems to be the kind of idea behind what motivated Eilistraee to go down the road she did.[...]

[...]Killing is ugly. War is nasty. You don't go in and come out clean, or with the same mindset you did when you went. Things change dramatically. I think that is the very quintessential definition and outcome of wisdom: you realize it wasn't like you thought, because you experienced it and now you know better. It doesn't mean the ideals have to be destroyed though. You just have to give a little to get some back on the back end though.[...]


Getting more ruthless doesn't make a character more compelling, especially not when you magick-up a change (that's just bad writing and characterization, honestly).

Eilistraee never had lofty ideals, nor she has ever been starry eyed to begin with. As I explain, she has always known what was waiting for her on the path she chose (literally, she had foreseen it), what was the reality of her situation--she was always personally involved and active, yet she never hesitated to throw herself in this challenge. She's been wounded, she lost and bled, yet she never abandoned her people and kept fighting for a better life for them.

This means that she has already felt the war on her skin, but her focus on beauty and nurture keeps existing despite all that. That's not because she fights just for the sake of her ideals (this is not some nebulous action), but because--even after the wars--Eilistraee knows that they're what can make her people flourish and discover happiness (and I mean, it already happened once, in Miyeritar)--the very people to whom she's dedeciated her everything. It's what the drow need after being endlessly bombarded with the notion that violence is the only way, and after being abused since their childhood, by those who should love them the mot. That's not lofty at all, but the choice of a goddess who has been in the metaphorical fray, not of someone who preaches stuff while they let others sort it out.

Also, before we talk past each other, Eilistraee isn't Eldath, nor she has ever been. She doeesn't command you to not fight back if someone uses violence--quite the contrary--she just teaches to show compassion, and to spare lives.

quote:
That seems to be the kind of idea behind what motivated Eilistraee to go down the road she did.[...]


Just to clairfy, this was not something that Eilistraee willingly chose. It only happened because she absorbed, temporarily, Vhaeraun's power, and was magically changed. In the books it's very explicitly expressed: the priesteses were worried that, since Eilistraee had defeated Vhaeraun, she was going to become more like him. Which is bad characterization. Also, after her re-emergence, since she no longer has Vhaeraun's power, Eilistraee returned to be her own self.

quote:
[...]However, it doesn't drop your opponent on the battlefield. It doesn't conjure up the lust for destruction of your enemy required to lay them low and destroy their reasons for existence, so that you yourself can exist. She needs to have a bit more of that in her, than she has had in the past is what I am arguing for[...]


Her goal isn't to bring a war to the drow, but to open their minds, to teach them life anew. She empowers them to find their own path and see with their own eyes what life can be, and embrace it. Her goal certainly isn't to show the drow the same ugly crap that they've seen for their whole lives. She also doesn't want to exterminate the Lolthites or anything--as Ed said, she's a nurturing mother to ALL drow. She sees the poitential for beauty in Lolthites, she doesn't want her people to be motivated to extinguih their lives, but to be able to defend themselves while showing compassion and offering a new opportunity to people who are ultimately victims of abuse. As I mention:

quote:
Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother that she can still find and give despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.


If she gives up on that, and starts dragging the drow in endless wars, she gives up on her very goal to bring that new life to the them. She becomes yet another warring drow deity: the same as the rest, offering the drow more of the same. To the drow, it would blur the line between her and the other deities who use them as pawns in a conflict for dominance. They won't be encouraged to change, because they won't see any meaningful difference.

OTOH, the change she wants has to come from the drow understanding and making a choice, which is an entirely different kind of "war" (that's also why she empowers them to find their own way). You say that it won't happen without a war, but this is different: the drow only need to lose faith in Lolth, to have the seed of doubt planted in them, even if just internally, to put Lolth with her back against the wall--because deities without faith lose their power. It's enough for a significant number of drow to lose faith (even while they keep lispervicing Lolth) for a significant change to happen (actually, given how miserable the drow are, many of them should have already lost faith in Lolth internally).

Eilistraee's MO can achieve that. She works to light their spark, to defeat their resignation and their quiet misery, while also providing them a place they can belong to, a community, and the tools to start anew. The combination of those two things is a powerful force to start a change. From one side, the beauty, the warmth, the conviviality can "lure" the drow and let them see what they could have if they just chose to stop the pointless strife. From the other side, it will also caus disillusion with the current model (Lolth's society) that promised the world, but only brought them misery, stagnation and confinement in shiny cages. It makes them wonder "why does our world have to be like this? If they're so weak and we so strong, why can't we have all that happiness?"

And you know what? Even in canon, it can work. Ed has talked about how many drow long for what Eilistraee offers them, if secretly or even unconsciously, and WotC themsleves tell that the Lolthites do all in their power to prevent the drow from coming to know about Eilistraee, and from feeling her call (doing raids under the full moon is taboo, for example), because they fear the impact that Eilitraee could have on the Lolthite society. In the 2e TDotU, you'll also read "a drow given the taste of freedom will never look back" (which is why Lolthite censorship is so obsessive). With that premise, it's honestly stupid that many drow haven't lost faith in Lolth yet. In over 12k years of misery, with that premise, leaks are bound to happen, movement and ideas are bound to be spread, dissatisfaction and disenchantment will be the norm--especially with another deity going out of her way to reach for the drow--things are bound to change. If anything, in this context, it's Lolth the one who doesn't make sense and has "ideals" (her dogma may read as if it was written by an edgy 12yo, but it's still ideals) detached from reality (and I mean, they are--they're stupidly self-destructive; her infighting-plagued society should have fallen apart millennia ago in an environment surrounded by extremely powerful and dangerous beings) and to be blatantly protected by plot armor.

Btw, revolutions that didn't recur to bloodshed as their main tool also happened IRL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution
An Eilistraee-led revoltuion would look far more like that than a bloody conlfict. And the drow are much more motivated to do something like that than any human culture ever, because drow commoners live in utter misery, both emotional, social (even loving your kid is taboo among them; it's ridiculous), and economical. And they've lived like that for 120000 years.

Re: preference. Some preferred the Masked Lady; AFAIK most people preferred Eilistraee as Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as Vhaeraun. It's not for nothing that they were both given back their own identities.

Re: Eilistraee&Vhaeraun trying to overcome differences together, that would be IC for Vhaeraun. He's always been willing to cooperate, when it comes down to freeing the drow from Lolth. That's in his lore since Demihuman Deities (2e). That's how you make changes in a narrative, not by saying "magic happens, and just like that a character makes a 180 literally overnight" (which is literally what this Masked Lady thing did).

In the end, empathy, nurture, creation of beauty, are qualities that are often overlooked or dismissed in characters, and rarely if never considered strengths. Eilistraee is one of the few characters that takes them at heart (as Ed Greenwood created her like that), and builds her MO around that. That's unique and valuable. There's no need to have every character become some morally grey "the ends justifies the means" kind of character in order to have a good narrative.

Even from the perspective of the Worldbuilding/setting, it was also pointless to take the one drow goddess and culture that stands for creation, acceptance, compassion, and have them become ruthless. It adds nothing; it removes uniqueness and, as I said multiple times, it only ends up adding more of the same to the setting (every drow faction is like that, we don't need *yet another one* to be like that).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Mar 2020 23:44:05
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cpthero2
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Posted - 05 Mar 2020 :  00:15:10  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Irennan,

First of all: thank you for the rebuttal. It's fantastic. I think it is very well reasoned from a Kantian perspective, and I have to say: you checked all of the boxes for making that kind of ethical argument. Very nice. I really found your point about the Singing Wars in the Baltics to be a really great analogy for how Eilistraee would try to facilitate that kind of revolution. Though, I do disagree on a couple of things that are frankly rather incidental to your overall Kantian approach and argument, but they are still interesting nonetheless I feel.

quote:
Getting more ruthless doesn't make a character more compelling, especially not when you magick-up a change (that's just bad writing and characterization, honestly).


There are an endless amount of examples:

  • Hannibal (Mads Mikkelson)
  • Lady Hideko from the show The Handmaiden
  • Darth Vader
  • Mistinarperadnacles Hai Draco


Ruthlessness is very compelling, and there are rare examples in the Realms of that, I concur with that if that is your point. However, your point about it not being compelling takes on a rather substantive body of great writers and authors, without providing a reason as to why it isn't compelling. Though, you are an exceptionally cogent writer, so my assumption is that it must be pertaining to past writings of the Realms rather than an outright dismissal of ruthlessness as a trait in being uncompelling as a blanket statement.

quote:
In the end, empathy, nurture, creation of beauty, are qualities that are often overlooked or dismissed in characters, and rarely if never considered strengths.


Even though I did agree largely with virtually everything you wrote in my acceptance of it as a Kantian position, I had to pull this specific sentence out as a particular favorite of mine as I think it really does some serious justice to the consideration of writing good characters from depth of personality.

Strong is usually seen as a powerful, in some ways, point to argue from and as people seek strength for survival. It's a very basic way of looking at things, but it is nonetheless a reality. It's why there can be absolute d*ck leaders in place that continue on as a leader. That being said, softer positions that play long games are compelling for sure. You are correct that they are rarely ever seen as strengths. In fact, there are many deities such as Eldath, Hanali Celanil, and others that are really overlooked a lot of time in lieu of Bane, Cyric, Torm, Tyr, Mystra, etc. I think because those gods are written monolithically and it is easier to understand such block, simple-minded emotional arguments from those characters. It's essentially a "Hulk Smash" kind of approach when there should be more depth of reasoning and character to these individuals.

quote:
There's no need to have every character become some morally grey "the ends justifies the means" kind of character in order to have a good narrative.


I know we're not suppose to do this but rarely, but I think it is the right time to use super boldness here: that is the best point of the entire rebuttal you provided. That is not to say the rest was bad, as I've made clear it was a well reasoned, and concise argument you presented, and it is appreciated.

Rather, the ends justifies the means stuff is so low brow, basic, "me-me-me" for a character to have. It just blows by all of the heartache, contention, guilt, and other emotions that a person goes through when they make tough decisions. It is a teleological perspective through and through, specifically a Utilitarian one at that. I think it has its time and place for certain character writing, but generally speaking it is a crap tool to use with characters. I am very glad to see that acknowledgement. It is sad to see how much Utilitarianism is used to justify crap. I see you are from Italy, and you clearly know some great European history, so I leave with my own example of why teleology/Utilitarianism is an awful perspective to get to attached to in character writig.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Yes, there was and there has always been an alliance with Mystra (at least on Eilistraee's side). Mystra commands her followers to promote the growth of magic everywhere, which includes encouraging the development of spellcraft among races with high affinity to magic, like the drow, and nurturing them. It's one more reason for the Lady of Mysteries to choose the Dark Maiden as a friend, and to oppose Lolth, because Lolth's ridiculous society only stifles growth and promotes censorship, strife and stagnation--the nemesis of any form of development. Vhaeraun didn't lend his portfolio willingly, he tried to kill Eilistraee, but Eilistraee defeated him with the indirect help of Mystra, and chose to spare him: he was encased in a dream within the Weave, and Eilistraee "borrowed" his portfolio for 4 years (by borrow I only mean that she took it temporarily, sorry for any misunderstandings). This was part of a plan that Mystra had devised to ensure the survival of Eilistraee, among her other divine friends, to the coming upheaval that she had foreseen (the Spellplague).

------------------

quote:
Well, wouldn't that just make her more compelling though? I think it would. Consider her ethical outlooks. Her idealism was lofty, and she recognized that, so she had to do a little "toughening" up to get the job done, is the outlook I take. It's like the idea of pacifism when the orcs are at your door raping, pillaging and murdering. You can either sit there and take it like a good Eldathan priest, or you can get your bow staff out and whoop some Orc up, because they are not going to stop, now matter how much you reason. That seems to be the kind of idea behind what motivated Eilistraee to go down the road she did.[...]

[...]Killing is ugly. War is nasty. You don't go in and come out clean, or with the same mindset you did when you went. Things change dramatically. I think that is the very quintessential definition and outcome of wisdom: you realize it wasn't like you thought, because you experienced it and now you know better. It doesn't mean the ideals have to be destroyed though. You just have to give a little to get some back on the back end though.[...]


Getting more ruthless doesn't make a character more compelling, especially not when you magick-up a change (that's just bad writing and characterization, honestly).

Eilistraee never had lofty ideals, nor she has ever been starry eyed to begin with. As I explain, she has always known what was waiting for her on the path she chose (literally, she had foreseen it), what was the reality of her situation--she was always personally involved and active, yet she never hesitated to throw herself in this challenge. She's been wounded, she lost and bled, yet she never abandoned her people and kept fighting for a better life for them.

This means that she has already felt the war on her skin, but her focus on beauty and nurture keeps existing despite all that. That's not because she fights just for the sake of her ideals (this is not some nebulous action), but because--even after the wars--Eilistraee knows that they're what can make her people flourish and discover happiness (and I mean, it already happened once, in Miyeritar)--the very people to whom she's dedeciated her everything. It's what the drow need after being endlessly bombarded with the notion that violence is the only way, and after being abused since their childhood, by those who should love them the mot. That's not lofty at all, but the choice of a goddess who has been in the metaphorical fray, not of someone who preaches stuff while they let others sort it out.

Also, before we talk past each other, Eilistraee isn't Eldath, nor she has ever been. She doeesn't command you to not fight back if someone uses violence--quite the contrary--she just teaches to show compassion, and to spare lives.

quote:
That seems to be the kind of idea behind what motivated Eilistraee to go down the road she did.[...]


Just to clairfy, this was not something that Eilistraee willingly chose. It only happened because she absorbed, temporarily, Vhaeraun's power, and was magically changed. In the books it's very explicitly expressed: the priesteses were worried that, since Eilistraee had defeated Vhaeraun, she was going to become more like him. Which is bad characterization. Also, after her re-emergence, since she no longer has Vhaeraun's power, Eilistraee returned to be her own self.

quote:
[...]However, it doesn't drop your opponent on the battlefield. It doesn't conjure up the lust for destruction of your enemy required to lay them low and destroy their reasons for existence, so that you yourself can exist. She needs to have a bit more of that in her, than she has had in the past is what I am arguing for[...]


Her goal isn't to bring a war to the drow, but to open their minds, to teach them life anew. She empowers them to find their own path and see with their own eyes what life can be, and embrace it. Her goal certainly isn't to show the drow the same ugly crap that they've seen for their whole lives. She also doesn't want to exterminate the Lolthites or anything--as Ed said, she's a nurturing mother to ALL drow. She sees the poitential for beauty in Lolthites, she doesn't want her people to be motivated to extinguih their lives, but to be able to defend themselves while showing compassion and offering a new opportunity to people who are ultimately victims of abuse. As I mention:

quote:
Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother[/u] that she can still find and give despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.


If she gives up on that, and starts dragging the drow in endless wars, she gives up on her very goal to bring that new life to the them. She becomes yet another warring drow deity: the same as the rest, offering the drow more of the same. To the drow, it would blur the line between her and the other deities who use them as pawns in a conflict for dominance. They won't be encouraged to change, because they won't see any meaningful difference.

OTOH, the change she wants has to come from the drow understanding and making a choice, which is an entirely different kind of "war" (that's also why she empowers them to find their own way). You say that it won't happen without a war, but this is different: the drow only need to lose faith in Lolth, to have the seed of doubt planted in them, even if just internally, to put Lolth with her back against the wall--because deities without faith lose their power. It's enough for a significant number of drow to lose faith (even while they keep lispervicing Lolth) for a significant change to happen (actually, given how miserable the drow are, many of them should have already lost faith in Lolth internally).

Eilistraee's MO can achieve that. She works to light their spark, to defeat their resignation and their quiet misery, while also providing them a place they can belong to, a community, and the tools to start anew. The combination of those two things is a powerful force to start a change. From one side, the beauty, the warmth, the conviviality can "lure" the drow and let them see what they could have if they just chose to stop the pointless strife. From the other side, it will also caus disillusion with the current model (Lolth's society) that promised the world, but only brought them misery, stagnation and confinement in shiny cages. It makes them wonder "why does our world have to be like this? If they're so weak and we so strong, why can't we have all that happiness?"

And you know what? Even in canon, it can work. Ed has talked about how many drow long for what Eilistraee offers them, if secretly or even unconsciously, and WotC themsleves tell that the Lolthites do all in their power to prevent the drow from coming to know about Eilistraee, and from feeling her call (doing raids under the full moon is taboo, for example), because they fear the impact that Eilitraee could have on the Lolthite society. In the 2e TDotU, you'll also read "a drow given the taste of freedom will never look back" (which is why Lolthite censorship is so obsessive). With that premise, it's honestly stupid that many drow haven't lost faith in Lolth yet. In over 12k years of misery, with that premise, leaks are bound to happen, movement and ideas are bound to be spread, dissatisfaction and disenchantment will be the norm--especially with another deity going out of her way to reach for the drow--things are bound to change. If anything, in this context, it's Lolth the one who doesn't make sense and has "ideals" (her dogma may read as if it was written by an edgy 12yo, but it's still ideals) detached from reality (and I mean, they are--they're stupidly self-destructive; her infighting-plagued society should have fallen apart millennia ago in an environment surrounded by extremely powerful and dangerous beings) and to be blatantly protected by plot armor.

Btw, revolutions that didn't recur to bloodshed as their main tool also happened IRL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution
An Eilistraee-led revoltuion would look far more like that than a bloody conlfict. And the drow are much more motivated to do something like that than any human culture ever, because drow commoners live in utter misery, both emotional, social (even loving your kid is taboo among them; it's ridiculous), and economical. And they've lived like that for 120000 years.

Re: preference. Some preferred the Masked Lady; AFAIK most people preferred Eilistraee as Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as Vhaeraun. It's not for nothing that they were both given back their own identities.

Re: Eilistraee&Vhaeraun trying to overcome differences together, that would be IC for Vhaeraun. He's always been willing to cooperate, when it comes down to freeing the drow from Lolth. That's in his lore since Demihuman Deities (2e). That's how you make changes in a narrative, not by saying "magic happens, and just like that a character makes a 180 literally overnight" (which is literally what this Masked Lady thing did).

In the end, empathy, nurture, creation of beauty, are qualities that are often overlooked or dismissed in characters, and rarely if never considered strengths. Eilistraee is one of the few characters that takes them at heart (as Ed Greenwood created her like that), and builds her MO around that. That's unique and valuable. There's no need to have every character become some morally grey "the ends justifies the means" kind of character in order to have a good narrative.

Even from the perspective of the Worldbuilding/setting, it was also pointless to take the one drow goddess and culture that stands for creation, acceptance, compassion, and have them become ruthless. It adds nothing; it removes uniqueness and, as I said multiple times, it only ends up adding more of the same to the setting (every drow faction is like that, we don't need *yet another one* to be like that).


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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 05 Mar 2020 :  00:50:09  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Ruthlessness is very compelling, and there are rare examples in the Realms of that, I concur with that if that is your point. However, your point about it not being compelling takes on a rather substantive body of great writers and authors, without providing a reason as to why it isn't compelling. Though, you are an exceptionally cogent writer, so my assumption is that it must be pertaining to past writings of the Realms rather than an outright dismissal of ruthlessness as a trait in being uncompelling as a blanket statement.



You're right, I misworded. What I meant to say is that ruthlessness doesn't *always* make a character compelling, or doesn't necessarily make an already compelling character *more* compelling (especially when said character is compelling for reasons that have nothing to do with ruthlessness). It's a certainly interesting and valid theme to explore, but--like all other traits and values--you can't just slap ruthlessness on a character and say that it's become more compelling. Some people seem to advance that idea.

quote:

Strong is usually seen as a powerful, in some ways, point to argue from and as people seek strength for survival. It's a very basic way of looking at things, but it is nonetheless a reality. It's why there can be absolute d*ck leaders in place that continue on as a leader. That being said, softer positions that play long games are compelling for sure. You are correct that they are rarely ever seen as strengths. In fact, there are many deities such as Eldath, Hanali Celanil, and others that are really overlooked a lot of time in lieu of Bane, Cyric, Torm, Tyr, Mystra, etc. I think because those gods are written monolithically and it is easier to understand such block, simple-minded emotional arguments from those characters. It's essentially a "Hulk Smash" kind of approach when there should be more depth of reasoning and character to these individuals.


I agree. And empathy and nurture are strength in a different way too: without them, devlopment of any kind hardly happens. They're needed for a society to work.

quote:

I know we're not suppose to do this but rarely, but I think it is the right time to use super boldness here: that is the best point of the entire rebuttal you provided. That is not to say the rest was bad, as I've made clear it was a well reasoned, and concise argument you presented, and it is appreciated.

Rather, the ends justifies the means stuff is so low brow, basic, "me-me-me" for a character to have. It just blows by all of the heartache, contention, guilt, and other emotions that a person goes through when they make tough decisions. It is a teleological perspective through and through, specifically a Utilitarian one at that. I think it has its time and place for certain character writing, but generally speaking it is a crap tool to use with characters. I am very glad to see that acknowledgement. It is sad to see how much Utilitarianism is used to justify crap.


Hard or controversial choices should happen in narrative, but yeah, if a character opted for a given solution purely on an Utilitarian basis, it would be quite shallow.

quote:
I see you are from Italy, and you clearly know some great European history, so I leave with my own example of why teleology/Utilitarianism is an awful perspective to get to attached to in character writig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak


Thanks for the link, and holy crap: that was some nasty stuff.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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cpthero2
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Posted - 05 Mar 2020 :  07:51:41  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Irennan,

quote:
You're right, I misworded.


Fair enough. I figured so. You're style of writing led me to believe that was likely the case.

Yeah, ruthlessness is like a cudgel in most cases for character development: brutish, and uncouth in its delivery. For caving a head in it is great, but for delivering a quick death in a fashionable and civilized way, not so much, i.e. katana. However, in the right hands, and on occasion, that cudgel can be utilized with great skill and surprise an audience. :)

quote:
I agree. And empathy and nurture are strength in a different way too: without them, devlopment of any kind hardly happens. They're needed for a society to work.


You hit the nail on the head there! I noticed by your profile that you are in Italy: a country rich in history, and certainly knowing the lesson you just stated. Well put sir!

Stories should be dynamic, and good stories have dynamic characters as well, which certainly should cover the gamut of options, i.e. strength, empathy, nurture, and more.

quote:
Hard or controversial choices should happen in narrative, but yeah, if a character opted for a given solution purely on an Utilitarian basis, it would be quite shallow.


Interestingly enough, since I can see you are familiar with ethical modeling in philosophy and what not, you should check out this debate I had with Master Rupert not too long ago. I think you'll find it interesting. It discusses the Emerald Enclave as the subject (from my point of insertion into the conversation) and I argue that they are in fact a very evil organization.

Initial Argument: 2018
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22542&SearchTerms=cpthero2,arunsun,bran,harper

Second Argument: 2020 [Starting no page 2]
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2195&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=emerald,enclave

Third Argument: 2020
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4591&SearchTerms=emerald,enclave

I'd absolutely love to get your feedback on this. I've also created some topics of discussion over at "Running the Realms" you very well may find interesting!

"Freedom and Politics in the Realms"
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23299

"What is Evil?" (I did not create this, but jumped in)
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23029

"Economics of the Deceased - To Bury or Cremate?"
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23300

"Values/Morals in the Realms - DM & Player Outlook"
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23298

"Economic Modeling in the Realms - Useful or Not?"
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23297

I'd love to have your input on any and all of those!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Ruthlessness is very compelling, and there are rare examples in the Realms of that, I concur with that if that is your point. However, your point about it not being compelling takes on a rather substantive body of great writers and authors, without providing a reason as to why it isn't compelling. Though, you are an exceptionally cogent writer, so my assumption is that it must be pertaining to past writings of the Realms rather than an outright dismissal of ruthlessness as a trait in being uncompelling as a blanket statement.



You're right, I misworded. What I meant to say is that ruthlessness doesn't *always* make a character compelling, or doesn't necessarily make an already compelling character *more* compelling (especially when said character is compelling for reasons that have nothing to do with ruthlessness). It's a certainly interesting and valid theme to explore, but--like all other traits and values--you can't just slap ruthlessness on a character and say that it's become more compelling. Some people seem to advance that idea.

quote:

Strong is usually seen as a powerful, in some ways, point to argue from and as people seek strength for survival. It's a very basic way of looking at things, but it is nonetheless a reality. It's why there can be absolute d*ck leaders in place that continue on as a leader. That being said, softer positions that play long games are compelling for sure. You are correct that they are rarely ever seen as strengths. In fact, there are many deities such as Eldath, Hanali Celanil, and others that are really overlooked a lot of time in lieu of Bane, Cyric, Torm, Tyr, Mystra, etc. I think because those gods are written monolithically and it is easier to understand such block, simple-minded emotional arguments from those characters. It's essentially a "Hulk Smash" kind of approach when there should be more depth of reasoning and character to these individuals.


I agree. And empathy and nurture are strength in a different way too: without them, devlopment of any kind hardly happens. They're needed for a society to work.

quote:

I know we're not suppose to do this but rarely, but I think it is the right time to use super boldness here: that is the best point of the entire rebuttal you provided. That is not to say the rest was bad, as I've made clear it was a well reasoned, and concise argument you presented, and it is appreciated.

Rather, the ends justifies the means stuff is so low brow, basic, "me-me-me" for a character to have. It just blows by all of the heartache, contention, guilt, and other emotions that a person goes through when they make tough decisions. It is a teleological perspective through and through, specifically a Utilitarian one at that. I think it has its time and place for certain character writing, but generally speaking it is a crap tool to use with characters. I am very glad to see that acknowledgement. It is sad to see how much Utilitarianism is used to justify crap.


Hard or controversial choices should happen in narrative, but yeah, if a character opted for a given solution purely on an Utilitarian basis, it would be quite shallow.

quote:
I see you are from Italy, and you clearly know some great European history, so I leave with my own example of why teleology/Utilitarianism is an awful perspective to get to attached to in character writig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak


Thanks for the link, and holy crap: that was some nasty stuff.


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keftiu
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Posted - 04 Apr 2020 :  05:02:04  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dug up something very useful from an old thread. Lore from Ed’s table, so as canon as non-canon gets: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=22#476688

THO has a lengthy comment, but the useful bit is quoted below:

quote:


Eilistraee emerged from her battle with her brother as The Masked Lady, and fulfilled her own portfolios of song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight, and those of her brother, too: thievery, trickery, drow poisoners and poisons, drow males, and evil doings in the surface world. The death of Qilué Veladorn robbed her of some of her divine essence for a time (it leaked into the Weave, and only returned to her when Mystra herself recovered and could direct it back to its rightful home), but Eilistraee wasn’t slain, merely reduced to manifestations.

So from the end of 1375 to the summer of 1379, The Masked Lady has her “full” powers, and from late Flamerule of 1379 to the same month in 1489 DR, she is much reduced, being seen by mortals almost exclusively as her manifestation of a moving black mask outlined in a silver radiance and with two eyes of silver flame, that appears and silently guides (by pointing and touching and by imparting visions). After Flamerule 1489, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are separate deities with the same powers and portfolios they had before 1375, but a new understanding, respect, and even friendship for each other. Some of their followers still war with each other, but the two deities do not. Thus far, Eilistraee’s teachings after the Sundering are the same as before the Sundering.


So it looks like The Masked Lady is your renegade drow of choice in the 4e era, and things might be building towards cooperation among the gods themselves post-Second Sundering.


4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Irennan
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Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2020 :  05:08:42  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, yeah, I summarized that explanation in a post above. It's also why they never merged; Eilistraee didn't kill Vhaeraun; she spared him but borrowed his portfolio. It's not some kind of fusion; the Masked Lady is still Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun wasn't lost but merely shrouded in the Weave-dream (though in the canon version, before 5e Eilistraee had just killed Vhaeraun; post 5e none of that seems to have ever happened--which is the second best option IMHO).

In the 4e era, however, Eilistraee the Masked Lady was unable to function as a goddess, because her power was trapped in the stranded Weave, alongside Qilué. As for a possible alliance, I really liked the concept, but WotC cut that path off (not that it matters in any personal games, but I would have liked to see an actual development).

Note that this is not part of the WotC-approved storyline. The 4e material goes out of its way in order to avoid mentioning Eilistraee, or to provide any input on her except "haha, she failed and is nowhere to be seen". An author who worked on the 4e Menzo sourcebook even said that, while they had crafted lore to include Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as archfey in that book (the two siblings would have lost their divinity but continued their activity in that version) the WotC editors had a real dislike for their presence in FR at all, to the point of calling Eilistraee "an internet meme". This explanation about the Masked Lady was added by Ed a posteriori, to provide some story where WotC had just slapped a retcon (5e). WotC's decision for 4e was to remove Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and any non-Lolth drow entirely, because "Drizzt needed to be more special", according to Perkins, and they sticked to it till the very end of the edition. It was a childish choice, honestly, not to mention boneheaded as hell and giving in to sh*tty monoculture worldbuilding.

In 5e, as mentioned, they went back on it, but in the most passive-aggressive way possible. They just retconned everything, and while now merely acknowledge the existence of drow gods that aren't Lolth, they provide scant info, and don't make a secret of their view of those deities as worthless and/or hopeless when compared to Lolth.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Apr 2020 05:28:33
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keftiu
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Posted - 04 Apr 2020 :  07:04:40  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds like there’s a need for a Guild product there, then! :p

And for me and the single-digit number of folks for whom the post-Spellplague Realms are the Realms of choice, having the Masked Lady as a force to be reckoned with is super neat! It feels very much in line with how many elements of the 4e era are “something from prior but spun in a weird new way,” and I’m beyond pleased with that.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 04 Apr 2020 :  14:24:27  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've already put a pdf up for free on the DMGuild (lore about Eilistraee&her people, plus class options for the 3 Eilistraeans orders), trying to stick to canon as much as I could, and I worked to expand and update the wiki articles about Eilistraee and related stuff. Another person did the same for Vhaeraun (on the wiki).

As for the 4e Eilistraee, well, even with Ed's explanation, she's not a force to be reckoned with at all--unless you want her to be in your game (in which case, more power to you; seeing people using Eilistraee in the 4e era always makes me happy).

Personally, if I had to use this event in my game, I'd find much more value in having Eilistraee and Vhaeraun work together, overcoming differences, smoothing rough corners etc... rather than Eilistraee just taking his portfolio (because that's actual character development for both deities, because it doesn't delete one awesome character, Vhaeraun, and it doesn't warp Eilistraee's character into a "more of the same" deity that offers the same old crap to the drow, and that no longer has what makes Eilistraee unique--not to mention that it doesn't paint her as merciless in not sparing her own brother when there was a clear possibility to, given that he had entered in Arvandor, and for that reason wasn't much of a threat once his surprise attack failed). Bonus points because, had WotC not been so biased against Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, their 4e canon version would now be that of twin archfeys (based on moonlight and shadow respectively) sharing a realm in the Feydark and continuing to fight for their cause as always (I kinda like them a archfey, because it can help the drow move away from their complete cultural dependence on a deity. An archefy can also be more on the frontline than a deity, which is *extremely* fitting for the M.O. of both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun).

That part alone made me so damn excited for the 4e Menzo book; it was an immense let-down to find out that WotC just decided to throw it away, even more so for the reason why decided to do that (also, it was among the little *actual* new lore that would have gone into that book, because the Lolthite/Menzo society had already been done 972345736473286 times by then). The worst part is that we won't even get to see it as an unofficial version, because the authors are forbidden from sharing it.

I mean, yes, I can include it in my game, personalize it, etc... (though I personally disregard this series of event, because my setup is a lot different, and because--ultimately--whatever lore would just be an attempt at patching up an event that did nothing but cheapen and take away from the FR drow). However, the beauty of a shared setting is that you can follow and play in a living world of sorts, and share it with others, so there's always charm in seeing a character that you love being respected in the canonical lore (like it's extremely offputting to see that character disrergarded or trashed because someone at WotC was the worst kind of fanboy, and decided that making their idol "moar speshul" and the only "real good drow" was worth stomping all over a lot of other people's fun, and designers' work).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Apr 2020 18:08:12
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keftiu
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Posted - 04 Apr 2020 :  19:07:50  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you have a link to where the talk about them as an archfey and that material being cut was?

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Baltas
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Posted - 04 Apr 2020 :  19:39:22  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gary has a take on the Masked Lady in his Alternate Forgotten Realms, that might interest you:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx2yr4B9kIXPWVRsc1pkdDBMR28/view
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Irennan
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Posted - 04 Apr 2020 :  20:00:19  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Do you have a link to where the talk about them as an archfey and that material being cut was?



It's here on the keep:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16836&whichpage=1#394365
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16836&whichpage=1#394417
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16836&whichpage=1#394722

(yes, back then I too was under the impression that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun had merged).

Heck, a map for Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's turf in the Feydark even slipped among WotC's rewards for their riddle challenge when they did that drow event at the end of 4e (before the release of the book)--probably by mistake. Honestly, good work and lore wasted because of "but muh Drizzt". Smh.

EDIT: Also http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10072&whichpage=2#405627 -- in fact, WotC just got rid of those events altogether. Which I don't mind, honestly, but since the cat's already out of the bag, I would have preferred for the archefey version, or Ed's version, to become canon.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 04 Apr 2020 20:18:31
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keftiu
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Posted - 04 Apr 2020 :  21:18:35  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Appreciate the thorough work, Irennan! You wouldn't happen to have a link to that map, would you?

I have to say, I'm sort of in love with a Warlock of the Masked Lady being the archetypical drow rebel in 4e...

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Irennan
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Posted - 04 Apr 2020 :  21:41:01  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oc1aZCzEsaGVY56cFhilVr97SSv0p7R0/view?usp=sharing

I suspect the book was supposed to also have some kind of map to locate the position of this grotto within the Feydark, but they didn't release that.

Barring modifications to "canon", a warlock of the ML would really be a warlock with a pact with both archfey!Eilistraee and archfey!Vhaeraun, which would be a really cool concept to explore. Ofc, you can simply have have Masked Lady Eilistraee as archfey, but (personally) I suggest to keep both twins, because their interaction, and their interaction with Lolth, has much more potential for storytelling than just having Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's portfolio, or the two mashed together. If you're looking for a trans sort of patron for the warlock, there's nothing preventing Eilistraee or Vhaeraun to do like Corellon, or to learn from their new relationship, and therefore include elements from each other's (former, given that they're no longer deities) portfolio into their "concept", while still retaining what they stand for. Heck, WotC themselves go out ot their way to not give a specific gender to nearly any deity.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 05 Apr 2020 04:20:19
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Baltas
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Posted - 05 Apr 2020 :  13:06:59  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Appreciate the thorough work, Irennan! You wouldn't happen to have a link to that map, would you?

I have to say, I'm sort of in love with a Warlock of the Masked Lady being the archetypical drow rebel in 4e...



With the Masked Lady, and being an archetypal rebel, Gary Dallison in the his article I linked, connected the Masked Lady also to Zinzerena, and which could be used to keep use the Masked Lady alongside Eilistrae and Vhaeraun:
quote:
The Masked Lady is a newcomer to the drow pantheon and something of an enigma to the drow. The
Masked Lady is actually androgynous in appearance and both Eilistraee’s and Vhaeraun’s clergy would
recognise the Masked Lady as their god, which would no doubt cause chaos and confusion if ever the
two groups would talk to one another. Thankfully cooperation and or communication between the two
clergies is a rarity so both groups remain ignorant of recent events.
The worshippers of Zinzerena are the primary followers of the Masked Lady, they recognise this
masked goddess as their own reborn in a new form and they follow her unquestioningly.
History
The history of the Masked Lady is a confusing mess intertwined with the history of Eilistraee, Lolth,
Vhaeraun, and Zinzerena.
Lolth had long been the patron goddess of the Drow, and even when they were the Ilythiir tribe of
elves she had taken steps to twist them towards evil by slowly breeding the blood of Wendonai the
Balor and other fiends into their bloodline. The Ilythiir were deemed irredeemable by the elves and cast
down into the Underdark for their crimes where they became the Drow.
Yet always in the shadows Eilistraee worked to free them from Lolth’s influence and show them the
way of good as well as evil. Her brother Vhaeraun likewise sought to free them from Lolth’s tyranny,
but only so he could replace her.
For millennia Lolth stood strong as the undisputed power of the Drow pantheon. During the Time of
Troubles Lolth found and destroyed Zinzerena; goddess of assassins and rebellion, taking her power
for her own and assuming Zinzerena’s guise so that she may answer the prayers of her clergy and gain
power from Drow that follow Lolth’s rule, and those that rally against her.
Then in 1372 DR, Lolth fell silent. She no longer answered the prayers of her faithful, and the entire
society of most Drow settlements were thrown into chaos.
During this silence, Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and the other gods of the Drow Pantheon battled against each
other for the fate of the Drow. Vhaeraun began to answer the prayers of Zinzerena’s worshippers who
were also affected by Lolth’s silence (for Lolth had pretended to be Zinzerena since the Time of
Troubles when she killed the drow Demi Power of assassins), using Zinzerena as an alias in the same
way that Lolth had done.
Given the new influx of power and worshippers, Vhaeraun decided to once and for all destroy his
hated sister so that he might take her power and then challenge his mother for rule of the Drow race,
wherever she may be.
The contest between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun went unwitnessed by the rest of Faerûn, and no-one knows who emerged victorious. What is certain is that a new power appeared in the Drow Pantheon
shortly after the conflict, calling itself the Masked Lady and claiming to be Zinzerena reborn.
This androgynous goddess referred to as a “she” because of her title, embraced Zinzerena’s followers
and formed her church around the individually powerful assassins that Lolthite priestesses had used
against one another for years in their power struggles.
While it appears that the Masked Lady’s worshippers are few, her power is far greater because she
answers the prayers of and derives power from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun’s clergy, both of whom think
their deity is the source of their power. With the worshippers of three churches behind her, and power
over drow males, surface drow, thievery, assassination, and acts of rebellion in drow society, the
Masked Lady is a strong goddess and she and her faithful are resisting Lolth’s evil.
The Masked Lady’s personality is very chaotic and prone to whimsy. She can demonstrate acts of
infinite kindness, as well as depraved cruelty to both her worshippers and her enemies. Her ever
changing personality is mirrored by her clergy who at times act as peacemakers between the drow, and
then again are known to slaughter entire bands of Lolthites that they encounter.
Her goals both mirror and yet remain distinct from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. She seeks to deliver the
Drow from Lolth’s evil and tyranny, so that she may become Lolth’s replacement, not as a cruel tyrant,
but as a nurturing mother. Yet she does not seek to redeem the drow from their evil natures, instead
the Masked Lady wishes simply that the Drow be free to live how and where they choose. To further
these aims she will fight Lolth, and anyone else that seeks to oppress and attack the Drow, that includes
those races on the surface of Toril if they choose to block the Drow’s return to those lands.


More in the fanzine:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx2yr4B9kIXPWVRsc1pkdDBMR28/view

This also could tie to a conon in-universe myth, (I think fist presented in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes) that had Zinzerena as a child of Lolth that spirited away, and hidden by illusions from her. This could be result of the Masked Lady, and the faiths conflation of Zinzerena with Eilistrae and Vhaeraun.


Edited by - Baltas on 05 Apr 2020 13:55:48
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Irennan
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MToF does entirely away with the concept of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun being children of Corellon and Lolth. Everyone is Corellon's child, apparently, even Lolth. Honestly, MToF reads like Mord being drunk and spouting BS, like Vhaeraun being Lolth's lackey (LOL), or the elves being denied Arvandor, or the drow souls going "to mysterious places". FR never had any myth with Zinzerena painted as Lolth's child either.

Ofc, then again, in a personal game everything you like goes, no matter how contradictory with the lore. I mean, the closest to canon we have is Ed's explanation in which Eilistraee temporarily takes Vhaeraun's portfolio while trapping his consciousness in the Weave, but even that was erased by WotC as they opted to delete the whole series of events entirely (and not only that; for example, if you read DotMM, the Promenade apparently never existed, nor the temples that preceded it. It has always been a temple to Dumathoin, which never appeared in any source). So, I guess that if you want to use those events, you're already changing the lore, and therefore anything is as valid as anything else in that regard.

Personally, I see a returned Zinzerena as a good ally for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun; even Malyk is, as god of chaos and rebellion, going perfectly with Eilistraee's portfolio of freedom, but that is 5e era. OTOH, I'm not fond of the fan lore with Zinzerena as the Masked Lady, because that reduces Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to mere manifestations of Zinzerena, a ruse to hook their followers, which is exactly the same as getting rid of them. Not to mention that her personality loses what either sibling stands for. I'm also really NOT a fan of merges, and I don't see their point either from a narrative or worldbuilding perspective. Everything you can do with the faiths with a merge you can achieve with a situation that forces interaction and possibly cooperation between the two faiths, but you still retain their identity and that of their deities. Especially since deities are characters, and if you want character development for them too, having it happen overnight through some magic mash-up is, well, *bad* and lazy narrative. Plus, all I can think when I read about deities merging is those Dragon Ball episodes in which characters perform that weird pose and get fused together.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 05 Apr 2020 17:19:01
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Baltas
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Posted - 05 Apr 2020 :  16:53:43  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I'm aware MToF is quite disrespectful to past continuity.

I just thought about using the story of Zinzerena being Lolth's child as a story, as part of of the idea of using Zinzerena as the Masked Lady.
Gods (including ascended gods) being claimed as children of more powerful ones, is also something that happened in the Realms - examples are Uthgar and Tempus, Mielikki and Sylvanus (and among elves, she is also seen as the daughter of Hanali Celanil and Sylvanus.) Krash also had Bright Nydra as originally an ascended (Netherese Mortal), who latter was claimed as the daughter of Selune.

With that, I also didn't mean in my conception that Zinzerena is just using the Masked Lady identity to subvert Eilistraee and Vhaeraun' worship, and being now the true force behind them - rather than the asked Lady set-up resurrected Zinzerena, who now exist alongside Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.

I also proposed it, as Zinzerena herself, like the keftiu liked about the Masked Lady is the in many ways the "archetypical drow rebel".

I'll understand it if you still don't like it though.


Edited by - Baltas on 05 Apr 2020 16:54:30
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Irennan
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Posted - 05 Apr 2020 :  17:03:20  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In that case, I like the idea, because there would be no merges to take away any character. Ofc, I'm not the one that needs to approve or like any idea, so don't get me wrong in that regard. I made my previous comment because I recalled Gary's version presenting Zinzerena/ML as something that was neither Eilistraee nor Vhaeraun, but that took their place. In that version, she could also appear to Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's followers as either deity, and answered to their prayers while the siblings were nowhere to be seen.

I also like Zinzerena as part of an anti-Lolth alliance alongside Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Malyk should be part of it too IMHO, despite him being CE.

As for the archetypal drow rebel, in the GH sources Zinzerena was indeed painted as the archetypal drow rogue deity, who constantly took strikes at Lolth before vanishing in the shadows. That said, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are also drow rebels, so are Malyk&followers (I mean, he has chaos and rebellion in his portfolio). There's a wide choice in that regard.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 05 Apr 2020 18:28:40
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cpthero2
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Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  01:32:50  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Irennan,

Wow, I had no idea, as I haven't purchased that book. Do you have any insight beyond intoxication as to why such a horrendous decision was made to just wreck canon like that?

Best regards,



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CorellonsDevout
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Yup, MToF totally botched drow and elf lore, taking away most of the established canon and throwing in random stuff. Gods being "children" of other gods is sometimes literal (like the case of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun), and sometimes relationship lines are much more blurred (such as being the child and lover of a god). I personally don't know why they chose to even write MToF (yes, you can use the unreliable narrator argument, but even an unreliable narrator, especially one like Mordy who doubtless has access to the knowledge, shouldn't totally change almost every single piece of lore for no reason).

It seemed like they were trying to give the drow and elves of all the settings (while still using FR as the "base") the same origin story, which gets rid of unique history.

As for the Masked Lady, I would have preferred her to not having Eilistraee and Vhaeraun not be around at all in 4e, but I'm glad they are allied now in 5e (now if we would get some actual material, that would be great).

Sweet water and light laughter
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cpthero2
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Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  06:46:01  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,

Wow. If that is true, that is just appalling. My cynical side says it likely is true, as they are likely looking to reduce the expense of having to maintain a workforce of authors, etc., that have an extremely tacit knowledge base, and at a certain point could likely charge quite a bit for it. In addition to that, they can lower the barrier to enter for people new to the Realms by resetting a huge amount of that lore to a simple version.

Ehhh....

Best regards,





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PattPlays
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Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  07:38:46  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Yup, MToF totally botched drow and elf lore, taking away most of the established canon and throwing in random stuff. Gods being "children" of other gods is sometimes literal (like the case of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun), and sometimes relationship lines are much more blurred (such as being the child and lover of a god). I personally don't know why they chose to even write MToF (yes, you can use the unreliable narrator argument, but even an unreliable narrator, especially one like Mordy who doubtless has access to the knowledge, shouldn't totally change almost every single piece of lore for no reason).

It seemed like they were trying to give the drow and elves of all the settings (while still using FR as the "base") the same origin story, which gets rid of unique history.

As for the Masked Lady, I would have preferred her to not having Eilistraee and Vhaeraun not be around at all in 4e, but I'm glad they are allied now in 5e (now if we would get some actual material, that would be great).


So this alliance did end up forming? huh.. Do you think they work against any ome target together with their teamwork? Ghaunadaur or Llolth, first I wonder..

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Irennan
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Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  14:44:03  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
So this alliance did end up forming? huh.. Do you think they work against any ome target together with their teamwork? Ghaunadaur or Llolth, first I wonder..



Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is. The current situations allows for Zinzerena and Malyk to join them too, but WotC would never even bother with dealing with any non-Lolth drow deity.

Ghaunadaur really isn't their priority. He has a beef with Eilistraee only because she prevented one of his avatars from attacking Waterdeep a long time ago.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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cpthero2
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Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  17:58:02  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Irennan,

It definitely seems like the issue with Vhaeraun makes a lot of sense in the no longer fighting, without an alliance. He is all about hating on anything he might see as pushing the matriarchy. His tendencies with rebellion, and of course trickery as a part of it, are enough to make me think it is just trickery.

Best regards,




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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  18:32:25  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is.



No true alliance? Huh. I seem to remember him saying in an interview they were actually allied. I may have to go back and watch that interview again.

Sweet water and light laughter
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cpthero2
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Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:02:17  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,

Do you know which interview? I would like to watch that for that reason as well.

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Irennan
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Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:11:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Irennan,

It definitely seems like the issue with Vhaeraun makes a lot of sense in the no longer fighting, without an alliance. He is all about hating on anything he might see as pushing the matriarchy. His tendencies with rebellion, and of course trickery as a part of it, are enough to make me think it is just trickery.

Best regards,




His core concept is more about being a drow supremacist that wants the drow to rule Faerun and other races to submit to them. That's the main source of incompatibility with Eilistraee, who strives not only to build a home of the drow on the surface, but is big on Cosmopolitanism and freedom fo expression.

Their main contrast is: get the drow a place in the world by conquering (Vhaeraun) vs get the drow a plance in the world through building and achieving reciprocal understanding with other people.

There are also many more differences; for example, in their approach towards the drow. Vhaeraun still appeals to their thirst of power, and promises them what Lolth does, but that her method makes impossible to achieve. Eilistraee appeals to their need to rediscover the beauty and joy of life they were robbed of, as well as working as a motherly fighure who empowers them to find their own path and fulfilment.

These are two big reasons why their stances are ultimately incompatible. His conflict with Eilistraee has historically never been about matriarchy or stuff regarding her female clergy (until Smedman/Athans *intentionally*--due to WotC's stance towards Eilitraee in relation to their idea of what the drow and Drizzt should be--took a massive dump on the character and lore of 30 years in their now retconned drow novels). There's even less reason for the conflict to be about that currently, because Eilistraee has learned how to have male priests.

Ed explained this design. Long story short, Eilistraee had troubles having male priests, because Ed had envisioned her as tied to motherhood and female fertility, and males found difficult fully cleave to her. In short, Eilistraee's nature acted as an obstacle to them becoming priests. Eilistraee actively tried to overcome this and allow male priests; it started with a particular ritual and ended with the clergy being fully open on males. Said ritual allowed male priests to temporary become female, and gain insight to cleave more fully to the Dark Maiden, and achieve the same understanding female priestesses had of her nature. An interesting fact is that the ritual was needed for males to get to mid-high levels, but not to become priests. This means that males could already become priests, but the difficulty arising from Eilistraee's nature kept them at low levels without the ritual. In the current era, the changedance is no longer needed, and men can just become priests.

Likewise, Vhaeraun's conflict with Lolth isn't merely about the matriarchy, it's mostly about Lolth's ways being intentionally designed to hamper the drow and keep them down for her to toy with. Since he wants the drow to actually become the powerhouse they were before the Crown Wars, Lolth's mindset has to go.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 15 Sep 2020 22:49:20
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Irennan
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Posted - 15 Sep 2020 :  22:13:52  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is.



No true alliance? Huh. I seem to remember him saying in an interview they were actually allied. I may have to go back and watch that interview again.



Interesting. His post here on Candlekeep talks about a truce stemmed from a better reciprocal understanding, not an alliance. Even more so because he said that their followers can still skirmish on occasion.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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