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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2018 : 00:10:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Honestly I think previously Zandilar was a human goddess apart of a human, most likely Nar pantheon, who when her Yuirwood Pantheon got absorbed by the Seldarine when the local elves and half elves began worshipping the Yuirwood Gods, and so Zandilar took on Elf features and got adopted into the Seldarine as a side effect of the Hostile take over.
I guess instead she was always an Elf Goddess, but the early humans of the Yuirwood adapted her as their own, and when the Elves took over, they assumed the humans worshipped the Seldarine because of the presence of an Elf Goddess, and so just absorbed the humans beliefs into their own.
I came up with this a while ago:
In the Dawn Ages, called by by some sages the Time of Dragons, the lands of modern-day Aglarond, Thesk, Ashanath, the Great Dale, Narfell and Impiltur were covered by a huge, nameless forest, of which the Yuirwood, the Forest of Lethyr and the Rawlinswood are the only surviving remnants. Primitive human tribes roamed this great forest, safe on the whole from the attention of the great dragons and later the giants who ruled.
Of these tribes, history has provided us with only a single name - the Yuir - and much of what we know about them comes from the unique means by which the Yuir, their history and some of their gods were subsumed into the historical record of the elves.
This grouping of human tribes, whom sages refer to as the Arthraen (from a bastardization of an elvish term for "forest hunters") had lived in the forests for millennia, eking out an existence whilst striving to avoid the predations of first the sarrukh of Okoth - who had a presence on what is now known as the Thaymount, which may have been a stronghold of the Ba'etith - and then the dragons and the giants who would raid the forests for food and slaves.
Elven history and the unique interactions between the elves who first came to the modern-day Yuirwood and the indigenous human population there, preserved some of the gods of the Arthraen. Those gods were Magnar, Relkath, Zandilar, Elikarashae and the Simbul. There were at least five others worshipped by the Yuir and assumedly by the the other humans of the forest lands. Their names and their areas of deific influence are lost to history. Sages and loremasters postulate that the known gods of the Arthraen had the following rough 'portfolios':
Relkath - nature
Magnar - war and strength
Zandilar - love and passion
Elikarashae - hunting and survival
Simbul - fate
It is thought that the Arthraen had gods for the sky/weather, hearth/home and tribal/familial life, and evil/darkness, but this is just postulation on the part of sages.
The last cohesive remnant of the humans known as the Arthraen were the ancient Nar. They turned away from the worship of their ancient gods and fell to venerating the dark powers of the Abyss. This occurred following their exposure to the horrors of Narathmault, the Dark Pit, known to modern historians as Dun Tharos. With the advent of their demon worship, all record of the ancient gods of the Arthraen was erased, save for what had been preserved in the Yuirwood.-Just going strictly by dates and such, the way the Yuir Totems were always described, it felt like the former: was a human deity of the proto-Nars, then the Elves came to the area and absorbed them into their culture.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 26 May 2018 00:12:20 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 00:20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
George Krashos: I think you are right. If you stat something out as a monster, it IS a monster.
Regarding elves and transcendence: what's that? Some new lore from Tome of Foes?
Stats are just stats. Stats serve the story, the story shouldn't bend to the rules.
Yes. Basically, if they follow Corellon, they die and then get reincarnated. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 01:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The Yuirwood was settled by elves in -9800 DR. There's nothing to truly indicate that there were a large number of humans in said area at the time. In fact, the humans that come to settle the peninsula that becomes Aglarond come much later. Now, there may have been other races in the area (for instance centaurs, hybsil, Lythari, treants, faeries, gnolls, or Quaggoths before they descended to the underdark, etc....), but I think its our humanocentric mind that thinks that the area first contained humans before the elves. In truth, I think the reverse may be more true... elves came in, claimed the area from the indigenous races (possibly even these Yuir elves pushed the Quaggoths into the underdark and/or pushed the gnolls and centaurs towards Thay)
-Just moved, so I packed up all my books, but the FR Wiki does specifically say humans. It is uncited, so make of that what you will. That said, what you're saying can certainly be true. Chronos was kind of Human-y, Relkath was kind of Ent-y, Magnar was just a spirit, and Elikarashae was an actual Elf that became a goddess, so there seems like a bit of intermixing in the pantheon to begin with. It's a kind of "mystical place", so groups moving in and taking the deities of the groups before them is something that we've seen time and time again.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
True story: I've never really known what the LeShay were, in part because I simply hate that name.
-And because it's leShay. But it is a stupid name, yes. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 28 May 2018 01:17:09 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 03:55:25
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| yep, dumb name |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 12:47:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ephiron
Am I the only one who prefers the original celestial eladrin from 3e? (...)
2e, actually. And I do prefer them this way.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 13:15:00
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At first I was miffed at the Eladrin = Elves from 4th Edition....
....but then I played an Eladrin eldritch knight in 4E and I sort of fell in love with the concept. Especially with the Bralani Wintersoul paragon path. I also really love the White Horn Knight paragon path - because riding in on a unicorn in full-plate is just awesome |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 18:14:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
By the way, the book gives a more logical and understandable reason to explain why the elves created Evermeet: it seems that all elves feel a longing to return to Arvandor, but after they "betrayed" Corellon (all elves, in his eyes, betrayed him when they chose permanent forms instead of being everchanging forever), they cannot go to Arvandor until they die. Even then, they can go there for only a few years before reincarnating again in the Material Plane as mortals. Even elves from worlds that do not know nothing about the planes or Corellon at all (such as the elves from Krynn) feel this longing, because its ingrained in their very essences. So, the Torilian high elves of the past wanted to create Evermeet to have a place so similar to the heaven Corellon has denied them. The Seldarine didn't punished them for this because the First Sundering was enough punishment in their eyes (or so its believed).
About reincarnation, all elves are reincarnated souls. If an elf of Faerun dies, she can reincarnate in Toril, but also on Eberron or any other worlds, at Corellon's will. Drow does not reincarnate, however. Nobody knows what happen to their souls. This apply even to the souls of those drow who revere Eilistraee (though, in Arvandor you can meet some "few fortunate drow" souls). The shadar-kai also don't get the blessing of Corellon's reincarnation, but the Raven Queen allow their souls to reincarnate into new shadar-kai, so their souls are not lost.
I don't have the book yet (my copy will arrive tomorrow), so I can't entirely judge, but I have heard about this, and honestly, this lore change upsets me LOL. Elves reincarnating after a time has been in the lore for a while (I read about in Demihuman Deities, but they spent a while in Arvandor first, and not all elves reincarnate. Some just remain in Arvandor. Arvandor has always been a reward for the elves, a place they look forward to. Now, it seems to be treated as just a way station for their souls.
And the drow have it even worse. I dislike the intentional vague phrase I've been hearing about them "going to other planes", or their fate (even those of the Eilistraeens) being "uncertain". Sure, one could assume the other planes means the realm of a god they are best aligned with as "default", but since they didn't actually say that, it implies, to me at least, that they are skirting the issue because they don't want to deal with the drow (other than Drizzt). Even Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, who they brought back, are seeming to get the boot, and they are avoiding going into detail. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 20:52:25
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
By the way, the book gives a more logical and understandable reason to explain why the elves created Evermeet: it seems that all elves feel a longing to return to Arvandor, but after they "betrayed" Corellon (all elves, in his eyes, betrayed him when they chose permanent forms instead of being everchanging forever), they cannot go to Arvandor until they die. Even then, they can go there for only a few years before reincarnating again in the Material Plane as mortals. Even elves from worlds that do not know nothing about the planes or Corellon at all (such as the elves from Krynn) feel this longing, because its ingrained in their very essences. So, the Torilian high elves of the past wanted to create Evermeet to have a place so similar to the heaven Corellon has denied them. The Seldarine didn't punished them for this because the First Sundering was enough punishment in their eyes (or so its believed).
About reincarnation, all elves are reincarnated souls. If an elf of Faerun dies, she can reincarnate in Toril, but also on Eberron or any other worlds, at Corellon's will. Drow does not reincarnate, however. Nobody knows what happen to their souls. This apply even to the souls of those drow who revere Eilistraee (though, in Arvandor you can meet some "few fortunate drow" souls). The shadar-kai also don't get the blessing of Corellon's reincarnation, but the Raven Queen allow their souls to reincarnate into new shadar-kai, so their souls are not lost.
I don't have the book yet (my copy will arrive tomorrow), so I can't entirely judge, but I have heard about this, and honestly, this lore change upsets me LOL. Elves reincarnating after a time has been in the lore for a while (I read about in Demihuman Deities, but they spent a while in Arvandor first, and not all elves reincarnate. Some just remain in Arvandor. Arvandor has always been a reward for the elves, a place they look forward to. Now, it seems to be treated as just a way station for their souls.
And the drow have it even worse. I dislike the intentional vague phrase I've been hearing about them "going to other planes", or their fate (even those of the Eilistraeens) being "uncertain". Sure, one could assume the other planes means the realm of a god they are best aligned with as "default", but since they didn't actually say that, it implies, to me at least, that they are skirting the issue because they don't want to deal with the drow (other than Drizzt). Even Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, who they brought back, are seeming to get the boot, and they are avoiding going into detail.
It seems to me that WotC brought them back to make people, to say it frankly, stfu. It's my impression that they still don't like them. The way they butchered Vhaeraun's rebellion against the Lolthite matriarchy points towards that. I hope to be wrong, but Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are going to join the plethora of deities that are entirely neglected along with their followers, even when their involvement should be logical (like the Seldarine, Selune, and many others).
They made a video about the Seven Sisters, and they dodged talking about Qilué until the very end, when the interviewer asked them for the 3rd time, and even then they hesitated before finally mentioning Eilistraee (spitefully, as the goddess of drow who aren't drow, which is complete BS). I really don't get this deep dislike on their side. It's quite childish, frankly (although they talked of Qilué as if she was alive, which gives me some vague hope. Unless it was just a mistake). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 May 2018 21:00:26 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 21:07:59
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| ^ This is the impression I am getting, too, and it makes me sad and angry. I am not too happy about the change with the elves and Arvandor, either, but what they did with the drow is even worse. It is like they brought back V and E because many were upset by their absence, but they don't actually want to deal with them, so they just brush them under the rug, yet make drastic changes to their lore. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 21:12:21
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| Eilistraee has come out of the MToF more or less as she was before (she seems to have gained the portfolio of freedom, actually). Vhaeraun had that weird lore added for no reason at all. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2018 : 23:04:46
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| I'm more concerned about their followers, at this point. All the other "evil" races go to their gods (at least I presume they do), yet the fate of the drow is "uncertain"? I call BS on this, if it is indeed true. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Arannis
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 19:11:41
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| I should be getting my copy today. I was really excited but hearing how they are bringing in gods and lore from other worlds into FR some of the retcon makes me almost wish I didn't waste my money. I'll reserve final judgment until after I get my copy, but I am bit wary now. I don't mind bringing in other gods/races/lore on a homebrew level, but as cannon I think it is a mistake. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 20:56:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Arannis
I should be getting my copy today. I was really excited but hearing how they are bringing in gods and lore from other worlds into FR some of the retcon makes me almost wish I didn't waste my money. I'll reserve final judgment until after I get my copy, but I am bit wary now. I don't mind bringing in other gods/races/lore on a homebrew level, but as cannon I think it is a mistake.
I agree. I dont mind if there is a significant story line behind a change - but just a here they are and guess what? Theyve been here all along! drives me nuts. Big events (dare I say RSEs) like adding gods to a pantheon require a good reason and story behind them or it becomes too unbelievable. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 21:13:06
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| MToF doesn't really add any deity, because it's a multiverse book, not a FR one. Even though those new gods are AL legal, AL has been declared non-canon by WotC. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Bragi
Seeker
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 21:59:35
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| In my campaign I have combined the two deities of the Raven Queen and Quorlinn the Raven together by using the different different aspects of the same deity explaination. I have associated them with the ancient Yuir deities group. I noticed that passage in MToF reguarding Alustriel and the Raven Queen as well. To me, the entire book was largely a disappointment. |
In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2018 : 23:35:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Bragi
In my campaign I have combined the two deities of the Raven Queen and Quorlinn the Raven together by using the different different aspects of the same deity explaination. I have associated them with the ancient Yuir deities group. I noticed that passage in MToF reguarding Alustriel and the Raven Queen as well. To me, the entire book was largely a disappointment.
Haven't got the book yet, so enlighten me... Alustriel? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 00:29:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I guess we need some context here. There is a lot of elven stuff in this book. How they live (surface elves, eladrin, drow and shadar-kai have different sections), new elven gods and that stuff (though only a few gods are described).
What are the new elven deities in the book? Just the ones mentioned in the thread so far?
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 00:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I guess we need some context here. There is a lot of elven stuff in this book. How they live (surface elves, eladrin, drow and shadar-kai have different sections), new elven gods and that stuff (though only a few gods are described).
What are the new elven deities in the book? Just the ones mentioned in the thread so far?
Jeff
They're not really new, they have been taken from all the splats and Dragon mags that WotC could find. They just weren't in FR before. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 May 2018 03:30:50 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 03:20:20
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From my quick read, it's also not clear that they (all these "new" gods) are in FR. Rather, the books are taking a Planescape view of things. All these gods exist. They are all elven (or dwarven or whatever) gods that are somehow related. I didn't see much that says that they are or are not known on Toril or worshiped there.
That said, there is mention of Eberron's Vulkoor as being part of the Anti-Seldarine, but viewed only as minor god that is only worshiped in Eberron.
More interesting to me was the implicit return of all the gods. Something that had been suggested, but not as broadly. Not only are all the Demihuman Deities drow gods back, but so is Malyk, who had been subsumed by Talos, and Zinzerena, previously subsumed by Lolth (okay almost all the drow gods were just prior to the Spellplague). Likewise, Zandilar appears sperate from Sharess (does she exist as something seperate from Bast and Zandilar - could be why she's not listed in SCAG). But implicit in that is other minor gods from Toril's history are also back, Kipyutto, Murdane, Valigan Thirdborn, etc. That's a lot of gods vying for the same small piece of the portfolio pie. Practically speaking, I suppose it means, players can pretty much choose any god they want and it's okay, which is also probably fine.
That said, I think cosmologically, it opens up a wonderful can of worms that adds to the divine being unknowable to some degree and I'd argue brings us back more to Ed's original concept of lots of little gods with some key ones.
4E combined gods, thus Talos and Gruumsh merged. That actually worked for me (some other mergers less so.) 5E broke them all apart, even the ones from history that predates the 1E Realms. I think that opens a lot of potential stories both divine and historical.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 03:28:23
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Zinzerena was subsumed by Lolth on Toril, but she is an originally Oerthian deity, and--AFAIK--kept going on there.
The other drow gods weren't subsumed. In fact, their portfolios weren't taken.
Ed gave an explanation for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. According to him, they survived due to various reasons--mostly a cooperation with Mystra--and their power remained trapped in the stranded Weave for a century, before their return.
For Kiaransalee, in The Reaver it is mentioned that her name wasn't actually erased and necromancers kept invoking her.
The only drow deity who came back really without an explanation (aside from Ao) is Selvetarm. And Malyk, as you point out. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 May 2018 03:31:32 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 04:45:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
First off Evermeet because it was partially unmoored from Faerun has been getting immigrants from none Toril worlds,
Er... could you rephrase or expand this part so that it would make sense on its own?
quote:
so the ship coming to your port in Waterdeep for example might be bearing Elves from other worlds,such as Greyhawk, Sigil, and Stranger settings.
Okay, but what's new in this? 
Waterdeep, Calimport, Chunming... IIRC the Grand Calif of Zakhara had one retired space elf in his harem.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
We already have three death gods; what possible niche does the Raven Queen fulfill that Kelemvor, Bhaal and Myrkul don't?
The Raven Queen is quickly becoming the new Shar.
As in, the next default villain-with-a-finger-in-every-damn-pie? Gah.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
before Corellon cast out all elves for their "betrayal"
Haha... what?
quote:
Shadowfell
Ah.
quote:
and is yet to happen in some others (such as in Krynn).
How? Krynn doesn't have Dark Elves. To the point that the local elves use this term as a curse for those they exclude from their holier-than-thou circle.
There were a few spelljamming drow in Wild Elves (DLS4), but that's it.
quote:
So, it seems there is no retcon here. Just that in Toril the descent of the drow happened way after it had happened in other worlds. Also, Mordenkainen seems to believe good drow does not exist, despite Elminster's words. lol (poor Drizzt).
For that matter, Drawmij seems to have similar problems with the drow. Jaran Krimeah doesn't. Drawmij failed to persuade the rest of Circle of Eight to get rid in some permanent fashion of Jaran and his mistress Tysiln San, suspected to be because of the latter. So even Mordenkainen doesn't seem to be bothered quite that much.
Also, everyone named in the previous line is Neutral. 
But why should Drizzt care about opinions of some busy folk from another world?
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
all that IMO is wrong with the D&D game viz a viz clerics and their deities since some bright spark way back in the day decided to stat out gods in Deities and Demigods. Instead of focusing on the cleric class, religion, worship, prayers, ceremonial garb et. al. and all the religious paraphernalia that goes with it, we have delved for decades into the origins and histories of the gods - for absolutely zero gaming benefit in my opinion.
"Running the asylum" effect. A sufficiently long lived shared universe is indistinguishable from fanfic.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 11:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
What are the new elven deities in the book? Just the ones mentioned in the thread so far?
Jeff
In the book we have cults of the infernal lords Zariel, Dispater, Mammon, Belial, Fierna, Levistus, Glasya, Baalzebul, Mephistopheles and Asmodeus.
There are also cults to the abyssal lords Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb'luu, Graz'zt, Juiblex, Orus, Yeenoghu and Zuggtmoy.
The Seldarine: Aerdrie Faenya, Angharradh, Alathrien Druanna, Alobal Lorfiril, Araleth Letheranil, Corellon Larethian, Darahl Tilvenar, Deep Sashelas, Elebrin Liothiel, Erevan Ilesere, Fenmarel Mestarine, Gadhelyn, Hanali Celanil, Kirith Sotheril, Labelas Enoreth, Melira Taralen, Mythrien Sarath, Naralis Analor, Rellavar Danuvien, Rillifane Rallathil, Sarula Iliene, Sehanine Moonbow, Shevarash, Solonor Thelandira, Tarsellis Meunniduin, Tethrin Veraldé, Vandria Gilmadrith, Ye'Cind, Zandilar.
The Dark Seldarine: Eilistraee, Ghaunadar, Keptolo, Kiaransalee, Malyk, Lolth, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Zinzerena. There is also Vulkoor, seen as a male scorpion aspect of Lolth from Eberron.
Shadar-kai: the Raven Queen.
The Mordinsamman: Abbathor, Berronar Truesilver, Clangeddin Silverbeard, Dugmaren Brightmantle, Dumathoin, Gorm Gulthyn, Haela Brightaxe, Hanseath, Marthammor Duin, Moradin Soulforge, Muamman Duathal, Mya, Roknar, Sharindlar, Thard Harr, Tharmekhūl, Thautam, Ulaa, Valkauna, Vergadain.
Duergar deities: Deep Duerra, Laduguer.
Halfling deities: Arvoreen, Brandobaris, Charmalaine, Cyrrollalee, Sheela Peryroyl, Urogalan, Yondalla.
Lords of the Golden Hills: Baervan Wildwanderer, Baravar Cloakshadow, Bleredd, Callarduran Smoothhands, Flandal Steelskin, Gaerdal Ironhand, Garl Glittergold, Gelf Darkheart, Nebelun, Rill Cleverthrush, Segojan Earthcaller, Sheyanna Flaxenstrand, Urdlen.
EDIT: Inclusion of Vulkoor. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 30 May 2018 15:21:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 12:02:09
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4E designers: "There are too many gods! Let's ignore canon and combine any deity even vaguely similar to another!"
5E designers: "Hey, if a deity has ever been mentioned, alive or dead, let's bring them back! Who cares if it makes sense or not?"
I fail to understand why they have to keep coming back to this particular well... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 May 2018 12:04:20 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 13:48:33
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Well, the 5e approach is easy to understand. People complained too much about this or that god being death or demoted or ignored in 3.xe and 4e. So they brought them all back to make people stfu.
I still believe the 4e approach was right. I won't be surprised if we see a god of bathrooms in a next book.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Haven't got the book yet, so enlighten me... Alustriel?
There is a quote from Alustriel in the book, where she talks about the Raven Queen. She seems to be quite knowledgeable about the Raven Queen, something that doesn't make sense, not only because the Raven Queen is not an FR goddess, but also because the book says the Raven Queen was forgotten in many worlds and people is just learning about her nowadays. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 May 2018 13:52:36 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 14:51:35
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I understand both. You can argue that there are only a few gods, which represent some aspects of reality (war, love, magic, etc) and are known by mortals by different aliases (as in Dragonlance) or that different cultures each have their own pantheons and ideals (maybe war is seen negatively by a culture, and not so in another one).
The many cultures in the Forgotten Realms makes it have at least many deities' aliases, and I think this is good, for it makes each culture relevant and unique.
As for the gods being or not the same, it should be irrelevant, and just a matter of sage and religious discussion, not necessarily with a right answer. In game terms, of course, there are practical isues (like the "domains" and so on), and maybe the answer could be that all deities related to a portfolio would have similar powers. If there are many of them, or if they are all aspects of one deity, it doesn't matter much.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 30 May 2018 14:52:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 14:52:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, the 5e approach is easy to understand. People complained too much about this or that god being death or demoted or ignored in 3.xe and 4e. So they brought them all back to make people stfu.
Yeah, but they went too far the other way. After trying to sell us on the claim there were too many, now they're going the other way and giving us more than we had before. It doesn't matter if a deity has been long dead and would have no worshipers, or if they've never been in the Realms before, now they're all there.
Rather than commit to one thing, WotC is now trying to include all possible angles -- even if they don't make any sense at all or are contradictory. They need to take a freaking position instead of continuing this Schrodinger's Edition rot, where everything from every edition coexists, because WotC won't say anything definitive either way. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 14:56:22
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| Is this book "setting neutral"? Because if it is, then maybe they present all the possible deities, and some exist in the Realms - or in your game world - and others not. I haven't read it carefully yet, in fact I just copied here the extensive deities' list for Jeff because of his deities'project. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 30 May 2018 15:00:56 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 16:17:09
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Once again, the book is about the Multiverse, not the Realms. The presence of so many elven deities doesn't mean that they're in the Realms (they're AL legal, true, but AL is not canon). Nor the presence of FR-only deities--like Eilistraee, Zandilar, and Shevarash--in the book means that they're necessarily on Oerth too.
The FR-specific list for the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine has been provided in the SCAG, and they're the same gods as ever. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 May 2018 16:40:47 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 16:37:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I still believe the 4e approach was right. I won't be surprised if we see a god of bathrooms in a next book.
You mean "lets remove a lot of gods that people liked, because we don't like them". Or "mash them together, even if it makes absolutely no sense in the lore"?
How about leaving the gods like Ed created them, without constantly removing, merging, bringing back and separating?
Seriously, why is it so bothersome that the elves have Sehanine while Selune still exists? Or why shouldn't the drow have their own pantheon? Ignoring what you don't like is *far* easier than seeing what you like trashed and laughed at. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 May 2018 16:41:24 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2018 : 16:56:06
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| Perhaps is true that they removed well liked gods, but you can always houserule them back. I prefer books that focus less in gods (that have been discussed a lot in past editions, so there is plenty of material for them, readily available in DM's Guild) and more in actually useful information for the game. I do prefer a small pantheon for starters, and let Dms customize it to their liking. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Tome of Foes FR Lore
