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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 08:49:19
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Hi all, in need of some assistance once again.
Was there ever any reasoning given for the creation of the "wood elf" subrace as something separate from the original green elves?
I've been trying to get my head around why this race was seemingly retconned into the setting in 3rd edition. All I can find in prior lore is on "green elves", which are variously described as both wild and wood elves. In the OGB these elves are described as non-trusting of outsiders, insular, etc. Then, in 3rd edition, "green elves" seems to refer to only wild elves. But, both are still Sy'Tel'Quessir... and wood elves are now suddenly the most open of the elven races.
The current way I'm explaining it to myself, based on the lore I can find, is that the wood elves were green elves who stayed away from the fighting in the Crown Wars. Over the millenia that followed their culture morphed into something different. They are now 'green elves' only by ancestry, but their avoidance of the Crown Wars destined them to become something different. This may have even been a blessed change by the gods, resulting in their skin changing colour to a more coppery hue.
I just don't get the reasoning for the addition of a major race right into the middle of the canon as a retcon. Was this ever clearer than mud? I'd love it if there was an explanation out there I'm missing...
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 14:42:19
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There was lore prior to 3rd edition (please don't ask me to hunt it down though). Essentially, it came down to Dragonlance had their wild elves which were blatantly more like native Americans, and therefore FR had to have the same thing... but they also wanted wood elves which were more civilized and less xenophobic.
On that subject, we have how many types of elves on Toril (including weird sub-races)?
Avariel
Sea Elf
Sun/Gold elf
Moon elf (I don't refer to them as gray elves, as that's GH in my book and they're different)
wood elves
wild elves
drow / dark elves
Lythari
Star / Mithril elves
Poscadar Elves (culturally similar to wild elves, but physically different as they're taller and lankier than humans)
on the mixed race front we have at least
half-elves
Crintri (wood elf/drow/human hybrids)
draegloth
fey'ri
I also posit that there's probably some other versions that I've missed or that I'd like to see (Rockseer elves <which I specifically don't call shadow elves, which was kind of what they were in Mystara>, Arak <the shadow elves of Ravenloft>)... I'd also like to see some more shapechanging elves... for instance some that shapechange into owls or stags maybe, or maybe some that change into actual fey animals like a unicorn... maybe some "wood elves" that can take on aspects of plants (such as bark-like skin, sap-like blood, etc...)... maybe some elves that are actual elf and hag crossbreeds such that their natural form isn't some illusion or shapechange....
celadrin
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2385 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 17:34:29
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I've been trying to get my head around why this race was seemingly retconned into the setting in 3rd edition. All I can find in prior lore is on "green elves", which are variously described as both wild and wood elves. In the OGB these elves are described as non-trusting of outsiders, insular, etc.
Yup. And in Cormanthyr it's still "Green Elves: A.K.A. Sy'Tel'Quessir, sylvan elves, wood elves, forest elves, wild elves".
quote:
Then, in 3rd edition, "green elves" seems to refer to only wild elves. But, both are still Sy'Tel'Quessir...
Yup.
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and wood elves are now suddenly the most open of the elven races.
How so?
quote:
I just don't get the reasoning for the addition of a major race right into the middle of the canon as a retcon. Was this ever clearer than mud? I'd love it if there was an explanation out there I'm missing...
Not quite in the middle - in 3.0 wild elves are said to live deep in the least accessible woods and avoid contact with those few outsiders who get that far in one piece.
But yeah, weird. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 17:56:17
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I use the term 'Sylvan', rather than 'green', because I find the color of the word confusing (because technically, Drow used to be Dark Green Elves, which just sounds weird to me).
So the 'Sylvan' sub-group would include Wood, Grugach (wild), AND Dark (non or pre-drow) elves. With those three, it is/was more of a 'cultural' thing.
Grugach are 'savages', for the most part. Not a very 'PC' term these days, I'm afraid. Hunter-Gatherers, mostly, and very xenophobic.
'Wood Elves' are your atypical, Tolkienesque forest folk. They're culture can range from 'barbarian' to very high, and everything in-between. Most have eschewed some of the more typical 'high Eleven' society's trapping, like High Magic itself, and human-like cities. Some are as xenophobic and aggressive as the grugach (one might even assume the 'wild' branch is just a descriptor for some of the wilder wood elf clans).
Dark Elves were/are a strange blend of Wood Elf and High (Gold & Silver) Elf, culturally. When it comes to aggression, they can be as fierce as the grugach, and yet when it comes to magical might, they can be as powerful as any Gold Elf clan. Like the wood elves themselves (they really are just a darker, southern branch of wood elf), individual settlements can range from barbarian-level on up to very high, with city-building on par with Gold & Silver elves. In fact, I even used to have a theory that wild Elves were nothing more then the few dark Elf tribes that managed to avoid Corellon's Interdiction. Probably the 'wilder' ones, naturally. They had not taken part in the Crown or other Elven wars (in theory).
Thus, 'Wood' and 'Green' mean almost the same thing, except that 'Green' became an umbrella-term which included the traditional wood elves, and their two off-shoots. It was just a verbal way of delineating them from the other, non-traditional ones, is all (since the wild and dark elves are ALSO wood elves, technically). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2016 18:00:11 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 21:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
and wood elves are now suddenly the most open of the elven races.
How so?
These quotes are from Races of Faerun:
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The wood elves do not view their homelands as a land apart from Faerūn; they understand better than their kindred that for better or worse, their fates are bound up with the fates of the humans, dwarves, and halflings around them.
quote:
The elves of Eaerlann engaged other young empires of the North in peaceful trade and diplomacy, befriending the dwarven realm of Delzoun soon after its establishment in 3900 DR, and tutoring the early Netherese in magic around 3830 DR.
quote:
The elves of Eaerlann took in many Netherese survivors, allowing them to settle in the city of Ascalhorn.
Admittedly, "most-open" may have been a bit of an over-statement, but it does look like wood elves in the time of Eaerlann were openly working with other races, and not secluded away in their forests.
On rereading, I also found this:
quote:
In the five hundred years since the fall of Eaerlann, the wood elves have been forgotten by most of the other peoples of Faerūn. Only those humans and dwarves native to the North and familiar with the borders of the High Forest have seen copper elves, and even then, they most likely met a solitary hunter or ranger. While the wood elves shelter deep inside forbidding forests and are therefore inaccessible to their neighbors, they are ironically among the more compassionate and understanding of the elven subraces. Like the moon elves, they accept the power of humankind and seek to live alongside their human neighbors and guide their expansion instead of seeking ways to deter or intimidate the human lands.
So perhaps they are potentially amongst the most "open" of the elves, as far as working with others goes, but in reality they remain in seclusion in the deep forests.
This is actually a nicer middle ground than I hoped to find, I had imagined them as trading openly and frequently, and this has them retaining a little more of the original secluded green elf feel. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 25 Nov 2016 21:57:12 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 22:07:44
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Dazzlerdal: the official 3. ed. lore, "Races of Faerun" states the Wood Elves appeared on Faerun as a mix of Sun, Moon and Green elves who in self imposed exile retreated into the woods, after the Crown Wars. So official 3. edition say Wood elves were a result from mixing 3 types of elves...
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 22:55:36
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| Which is stupid, since the rule in the Realms from the very beginning has been that if you have parents of two different elven subraces, the children are either all of one subrace, or all of the other. There's no mixing of subraces. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 23:54:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Which is stupid, since the rule in the Realms from the very beginning has been that if you have parents of two different elven subraces, the children are either all of one subrace, or all of the other. There's no mixing of subraces.
That's why I was wondering if there was a divine element involved in addition to the mixing stated in Races of Faerun. Following the Crown Wars, we have some moon elves and sun elves building new nations, and mostly keeping the old ways; many of the green elves Wandering for so long they become "wild elves"; and a group of all three of the above forming smaller communities, "vowing never again to let internal strife tear their kind apart, retreating to the deepest woodlands to seek shelter from the madness of the world." I wonder if Rillifane (or Corellon, or any god really) stepped in and blessed this latter group's decision, creating the race of the wood elves.
Alternatively, maybe it's an individual blessing when an elf couple, both of mixed elven-subrace parentage (but still being defined as a moon/sun/green/whatever elf) themselves, give birth to a child in a community that has embraced the ideals above. Rillifane then blesses the child in the womb to become a wood elf. This way, the old canon is respected while integrating the 3e+ definition of wood elves with the old trusty "a god did it" intervention. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 25 Nov 2016 23:56:12 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2016 : 00:24:51
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One of the many reasons I tend to ignore RoF and go with my own version. 
One subrace - Sylvan (Green), with three offshoots (more like two offshoots off the main one).
I also have it where (homebrew) that the 'Gray' and 'Grey' ARE actually the same thing - that bit of confusion from Core to FR. I just say that the (old school) 'High Elves' became FR's Gold Elves, rather than the Silver - its just that their personalities changed over time (probably due to the Aryvandaar) to be more like how we know them in FR (less friendly, more haughty), and the Silver (Gray/Grey) Elves became more friendly, and open to work with others, and far less xenophobic than their Core counterparts (also probably due to the Crown Wars). 30k+ history will change people.
I like that better than the fact that our Silver Elves were 'Greys', but the Gold Elves were Core D&D 'Gray Elves' - that was just too confusing. There was a mix-up when the Evermeet novel was written (an easy mistake to make - 'Silver' does seem a lot more like 'Gray'), but rather than just continue with it for 5 editions as we have, its just so much easier to say our High Elves got nastier (Gold), and our Gray Elves got nicer (Silver). Easy-peasy - the Crown wars changed LOTS of things.
And like I said, thats homebrew... but I've applied Occam's Razor. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2016 : 21:23:15
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I usually go with the look of the Patron elven god of the most numerous clan; it decides the dominant outlook. Corellon has sun elves, Sehanine moon, Rillifane/Yuir green/sylvan, Fenmarel wild elves, Sashelas sea, Lolth drow, Aedrie avariel. Perhaps Labelas has stewardship over star elves?
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2016 : 21:54:35
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Where do the Llewyrr on the Moonshae Isles fit into all of this?
Originally they were a mixture of sun, moon & wood elves, living together in a northern colony of Illefarn in what is now Neverwinter Wood.
Having evacuated to the Moonshaes during the Crown Wars, they now have pale skin, blond hair & brown eyes, and behave like a mixture of all three races - reclusive (avoid humans if at all possible), nature-loving (worship the Earthmother), and live in a city with walls, fight in plate armor with lances, etc.
Seems to me that over the milennia, the three subraces merged together in this case. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2016 : 19:12:18
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| Wild elves tend to be more tribal, living in small groups, whereas wood elves tend to be more like moon and sun elves, though they are known to be more care-free and not as uptight as sun elves lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2385 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2016 : 15:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
These quotes are from Races of Faerun:
quote:
The wood elves do not view their homelands as a land apart from Faerūn; they understand better than their kindred that for better or worse, their fates are bound up with the fates of the humans, dwarves, and halflings around them.
This in itself doesn't say much.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
The elves of Eaerlann engaged other young empires of the North in peaceful trade and diplomacy, befriending the dwarven realm of Delzoun soon after its establishment in 3900 DR, and tutoring the early Netherese in magic around 3830 DR.
quote:
The elves of Eaerlann took in many Netherese survivors, allowing them to settle in the city of Ascalhorn.
quote:
p.5:
Fourteen years after the formation of Netheril, the Earlanni elves approached the loosely tied villages.
[...] Netheril bowed its head in awe to these messengers of the earth spirits and venerated them.
[...]
For the next century, trade continued with the elves, and magic use in this small nation grew in leaps and bounds.
Unlike many other cultures, magic use was considered essential
[...]
As the orcs cut a 20-mile-wide swath of death and carnage across the Rengarth ancestral lands and swooped south and west
toward the elves, the Eaerlanni and Illefarni nations prepared for war. With aid from Netheril (a tokenbut sinceregesture
compared to the might of the elves [...])
p.16:
Most of the Earlanni were of moon elf stock, although gold elves and a precious few wild elves were also present.
- Netheril - Empire of Magic:
So, the Earlanni were
1) mostly Silver, and
2) closely allied with Netheril for more than 300 years before discovery of the Nether Scrolls.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
On rereading, I also found this:
quote:
In the five hundred years since the fall of Eaerlann, the wood elves have been forgotten by most of the other peoples of Faerūn.
So perhaps they are potentially amongst the most "open" of the elves, as far as working with others goes, but in reality they remain in seclusion in the deep forests.
The key words are "since the fall of Eaerlann". After the mess in Ascalhorn the Moon elves moved on, wood elves won't unless wiped out, and remained around. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2016 : 17:35:36
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There is some interesting interaction in The Return of the archwizards series, between Wood Elves and Silvers (from Evereska... unless they were gold, not sure). The main character's mother was a Wood Elf from the High Forest, from Reitheillaethor (one of two 'known' Wood Elf villages in the forest), and his father was a haughty dou... errr Silver Elf from Evereska. the mom lived with the dad, had a kid with him, got tired of the dou.. haughty Evereska elves, and moved back to the forest to get away from them (abandoning her child in the process, which apparently isn't such a big deal amongst elves).
The Wood Elves WERE decidedly friendlier in that story, but more reclusive (I guess they didn't want to be judged for their 'hippy lifestyle'). The other elves in the series (including some golds from I forget where) were much better-known (at least the places they hailed from were), and almost all horrible people. I guess that just reconfirms a lot of whats been said already.
Gold Elves: "We're here, and we're powerful - now what do you want, insect?"
Silver Elves: We're here, and we'll talk to you, and we'll even act nice to you (even though you're not as good as us), because we're kindly folk."
Wood Elf: "Oh wow, you found us! Groovy... want to eat some magic mushrooms?" (ummm... how'd you know about us, anyway?)
Wild Elves: "No, no, no... we use the Basil with dwarves! Humans taste better when seasoned with cilantro..."
Drow: "Oh, you're alive? Thats inconvenient. Someone make this thing dead... it annoys me". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Dec 2016 17:36:44 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2016 : 14:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
his father was a haughty dou... errr Silver Elf from Evereska. the mom lived with the dad, had a kid with him, got tired of the dou.. haughty Evereska elves,
LOL 
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Wood vs Wild Elves
