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Helm
Acolyte
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 20:16:24
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In your FR campaigns, does anyone ascribe to the idea that some gods are in fact aspects of another god? I recently came across it mentioned in the FR wiki and thought it might be an interesting idea. For example, I read it that Sehanine Moonbow is an aspect of Selune and Yondalla is an aspect of Chauntea.
Has anyone compiled a list of gods for their campaigns with aspects listed against each one? It's something I have already thought of beginning.
I can foresee some difficulties though. Like, "Is Correllon or Moradin an aspect of another god or are other gods aspects of them?"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 20:35:53
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| Originally, the gods were all separate entities, except in a few odd cases. The whole thing of Sehanine and Selūne being the same was one of the 4E ideas -- someone decided there were too many deities, so they rolled several of them into others, threw some new ones into the mix, and called it done. (Yes, they created new gods while culling the list of "too many" gods) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 20:44:53
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| Sehanine being and aspect of Selune requires a really contrived explanation, since Sehanine is an interloper deity. That truly was a retcon, as far as I can see. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Helm
Acolyte
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 20:47:05
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I suspected it was something to do with 4th edition.
Personally I wouldn't want to cull, kill off or whatever any of the gods...I think they're great sources of adventure. I do have some minor issues with the Faerunian Pantheon vs. all the other non-human pantheons though. I mean, surely Mystra is THE goddess of magic on Toril? Oh wait, but Correllon is also god of (among other things) magic!. And surely, Tempus is THE god of war but again so is Clangeddin.
How do other DMs handle these issues? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 21:48:34
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Why there must be only one god for a given portfolio? In our world there were multiple gods of the same thing even within the same religion (the Greek had Artemis, Selene and Hecate as 3 deities of the moon, associated to 3 different phases).
A deity of something can, for example, embody that something as is seen by their race. Hanali is the goddess of love as seen by the elves, tied to their nature, as Sune is the goddess of love as seen by humans, and so on.
Mystra is an exception to me, because I like her being the Weave, and not just a goddess of magic. But in my Realms, deities that represent concept tied to the laws of nature (like Death) or to the source of magic are above races. Corellon might be the god of the elven magic traditions, but Mystra still is the Weave. Sehanine might guide the elven souls to their afterlife and Arvandor, but Myrkul embodies death and decay as forces of nature, and--if I had to include souls being judged by a deity of death, like in canon--Kelemvor would judge whether a soul is worthy of being claimed by a deity, or should be sentenced to the Wall or be labeled as false.
As for different deities all tied to things like the Sun or the Moon, I rule that those deity are just associated, sometimes intimately tied to the Moon or the Sun, and are masters of powers that come from them, but they don't control either. The Moon and Sun exist and function on their own, w/o needing any deities to make them work. There is no deity that is *only* the deity of the Sun or Moon anyway, they all have other things that they stand for (renewal for Lathander, stability for Amaunator, hope and guidance for Selune, mysticism and dreams for Sehanine, and so on). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 Oct 2016 21:49:25 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 22:06:28
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Sounds like you guys are having trouble with PANTHEONS. Pantheons are groups of deities worshiped by a particular group.
So, Tempus us the Faerunian god, and Clangeddin is the.. um.. dwarf or gnome god (sorry cant remember which). Similarly Sune is the Faerunian god, Hanali is the elven.
Clear? :P
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 22:07:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Originally, the gods were all separate entities, except in a few odd cases. The whole thing of Sehanine and Selūne being the same was one of the 4E ideas -- someone decided there were too many deities, so they rolled several of them into others, threw some new ones into the mix, and called it done. (Yes, they created new gods while culling the list of "too many" gods)
One more example of 4 E Stupid. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 22:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Sounds like you guys are having trouble with PANTHEONS. Pantheons are groups of deities worshiped by a particular group.
So, Tempus us the Faerunian god, and Clangeddin is the.. um.. dwarf or gnome god (sorry cant remember which). Similarly Sune is the Faerunian god, Hanali is the elven.
Clear? :P
I think that the issue was more like "how can there be two gods who control the Sun?" To which pantheons don't really offer an answer. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2016 : 01:37:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Helm
I suspected it was something to do with 4th edition.
Personally I wouldn't want to cull, kill off or whatever any of the gods...I think they're great sources of adventure. I do have some minor issues with the Faerunian Pantheon vs. all the other non-human pantheons though. I mean, surely Mystra is THE goddess of magic on Toril? Oh wait, but Correllon is also god of (among other things) magic!. And surely, Tempus is THE god of war but again so is Clangeddin.
How do other DMs handle these issues?
How I handle it is that deities don't have absolute control over things dealing with their portfolios. They have heavy control and maybe some ability to manipulate those things, but not absolute control. Thus, you could in theory have more than one deity having a given portfolio even in the same pantheon. For instance, two deities may have a focus on war, and if they want to draw worshippers then they need to differentiate themselves so as to attract worshippers.
This is a little different than FR canon as it stood after the ToT, wherein a "portfolio" couldn't be held by two deities in the same pantheon at once. Thus, you could have deities in different pantheons with the same portfolio. But the absolute control issue creeps into that when it comes to things like the sun and moon, which is why I choose to believe that no one has absolute control of the sun and instead all the deities are tied to "aspects" of the sun (i.e. Lathander is tied to the concept of dawn and renewal, Amaunator is tied to the concept of rigid structure portrayed by the sun endlessly following its patter, Ra is seen as more of a god of light itself, Stronmaus is seen more as a sky/weather god of which sunshine is an aspect, etc...) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2016 : 03:50:23
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I think the only place where this is really a big issue is with Mystra. Unlike all the other gods, we are told that Mystra IS the Weave and the essense fo all Magic. The only real answer for this is that the other magic gods are like Azuth, gods of magic use.
I have always had some issues with her inherent connection to all magic everywhere, but that's what she is so have to deal. |
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Helm
Acolyte
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2016 : 06:29:48
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Thanks for all your input - I think I will resign my aspect idea, to just an idea! It's probably one of those subjects I will leave intentionally vague in my campaign.
Mystra being the goddess of the weave itself makes her a bit more tricky to separate out into the faerunian pantheon though. Does she now share the weave with other gods? I read somewhere she can deny anyone even a god access to the weave (correct me if I'm wrong on this one!). Could she really deny Correllon's access to the weave? |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2016 : 13:23:39
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| i am not sure about other editions but in 3.5 there are alignments as domains and they definitely overlap even in one pantheon so why some domains can and others supposedly cannot? For me domains are both responsibility and sources of power. Dieties can asociate themselves with them but they take some obligations with it and also when more than one diety claim a domanin the power received splits between them so most gods try to protect and limit access to their domain (however this claming proccess works). At current age ale domains are occupied so there is no easy way for new gods to rise. The usual way is for one or two gods to "give birth" to a new diety and give it access to some of their domains (Shar>Mask, Jergal>Bhaal,Bane, Myrkul, Oghma>Deneir, Torm?>Red Knight). |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 00:05:17
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As for overlapping domains, I think it is as simple as a deity laying claim to a domain, as Cyric attempts to do over and over. Then as with all things gods in FR it depends upon the strength of support from mortal worshippers.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 15:12:46
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Eric Boyd explained it thus:
Every pantheon has an area of influence. The elven pantheon has influence over elves, the Maztican pantheon has influence over Maztica, etc.
If a god has a portfolio, they are the god representing that aspect of mortal life within that particular area of influence.
There can be only one true god in every area of influence with that portfolio. If another claims the portfolio, they can never rise above the level of demigod unless the god who actually holds it is destroyed or loses the portfolio somehow.
Crossing into other areas of influence is difficult, but not impossible and requires the aid of their faithful more than anything else. The power gained by a god who does so is impressive though.
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Mystra is a special case, since she is the only being capable of maintaining the Weave that powers arcane magic. Even though Corellon is the god of magic within the area of elven influence, he cannot maintain the Weave and so can never be THE god of magic. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 15:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Eric Boyd explained it thus:
Every pantheon has an area of influence. The elven pantheon has influence over elves, the Maztican pantheon has influence over Maztica, etc.
If a god has a portfolio, they are the god representing that aspect of mortal life within that particular area of influence.
There can be only one true god in every area of influence with that portfolio. If another claims the portfolio, they can never rise above the level of demigod unless the god who actually holds it is destroyed or loses the portfolio somehow.
Crossing into other areas of influence is difficult, but not impossible and requires the aid of their faithful more than anything else. The power gained by a god who does so is impressive though.
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Mystra is a special case, since she is the only being capable of maintaining the Weave that powers arcane magic. Even though Corellon is the god of magic within the area of elven influence, he cannot maintain the Weave and so can never be THE god of magic.
Yeah, tht's pretty much how I rule it too. Unless it comes to things that are universal (like the Sun), in which case I rule that the deity is only associated with it--perhaps tied to it (Selune)--but it doesn't have control over it, and instead has influence over their other portfolios (which in most cases IMO represent those deities better than the Sun or the Moon).
Deities of universal forces of nature that are equal for all, are above the races to me, tho. But I've already said that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2016 : 00:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Helm
Thanks for all your input - I think I will resign my aspect idea, to just an idea! It's probably one of those subjects I will leave intentionally vague in my campaign.
Mystra being the goddess of the weave itself makes her a bit more tricky to separate out into the faerunian pantheon though. Does she now share the weave with other gods? I read somewhere she can deny anyone even a god access to the weave (correct me if I'm wrong on this one!). Could she really deny Correllon's access to the weave?
In Canon, there is an example of Mystra stripping the weave from Cyric. HOWEVER, there are ways to make this not as effective as one may think. For instance, my viewpoint on this is that Leira did not die. Leira instead worked instead in conjunction with Mask aka Godsbane and allowed her deific essence to reside within godsbane (as a further way to both make his intrigue that much harder to discover AND allow Leira to move onto her next part of her plan). So, Leira used illusions and lies to CONVINCE Cyric that Mystra had stripped him of magic, and belief became reality. Later, Leira, in the form of the Cyrinishad INFECTED Cyric. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2016 : 00:48:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Helm
Mystra being the goddess of the weave itself makes her a bit more tricky to separate out into the faerunian pantheon though. Does she now share the weave with other gods? I read somewhere she can deny anyone even a god access to the weave (correct me if I'm wrong on this one!). Could she really deny Correllon's access to the weave?
Yes, Mystra shares the Weave with other deities. Ed explains in Spellstorm that Mystra is currently sharing the Weave, the same Weave that she is, with a group of other deities. Eilistraee is given as an example.
As for denying access to the Weave to others, what I got from Spellstorm is that she might do that, but she refrains from doing that at all costs, because it would mean embracing tyranny, and that's something that would hamper the development of magic (which is the main thing that Mystra stands for). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Oct 2016 00:49:04 |
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ghilteras
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 03:17:15
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| It looks like aspects are not anymore in 5e. I was just looking at Talos = Gruumsh thing from 4e and according to the only canon source we have for 5e (sword coast adventure's guide) Talos is again treated as a standalone deity. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 04:06:55
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quote:
Originally posted by ghilteras
It looks like aspects are not anymore in 5e. I was just looking at Talos = Gruumsh thing from 4e and according to the only canon source we have for 5e (sword coast adventure's guide) Talos is again treated as a standalone deity.
When it comes to gods, 4e has essentially been retconned. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 09:02:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Helm
In your FR campaigns, does anyone ascribe to the idea that some gods are in fact aspects of another god?
They may debate it, and some probably believe it.
But my hard rule is that the nature of the worship determines the deity. If two different groups on opposite sides of the world that have never met each other worship the same aspect/concept, then to bugger with it's name or what some temple wall paitings look like.
Even though it may appear differently to different worshippers, it is still the same deity because the worship is the same. This transcends race, creed, and time. In fact, given a large enough shift in perception of the overall mass of worshippers, the deity's nature may change. A deity may appear to have died, or even believe it is a new deity, but the deity is an aspect of reality, and therefore immortal as long it exists, even if only as an idea in the minds of it's followers, and even if not sufficiently strong to manifest.
Secret DM stuff:
Mortals don't ascend to godhood. They die, and their memories and the nature of their being are absorbed by the deity. The deity is still whatever aspect of reality it always was. The mortal merely "imprints" onto the deity and affects how it's consciousness works and how it manifests. But of course the nature of the deity is still determinde by the perception of the worshippers. Therefore someone who plans to ascend to godhood (not really) must have a significant amount of worshippers, or their imprint won't last very long.
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2016 : 23:09:30
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I think it's more complex than that.
An "aspect" of a deity can actually gain more power (more believers) than the "original" deity. So a deity might "fork" or "branch" out into multiple distinct but overlapping variant deities. One can diminish or even consume the other, they can merge or they can compete, their divine powers and portfolios can also be merged or they can be split into different specialties. A deity can even be redefined by wars and schisms among believers - changes in the Faith are reflected as changes in the deity itself.
In the Realms we had Mystryl, then Mystra, then Midnight/Mystra. All essentially the "same" goddess, I think, because while different individuals held her divine station their "identities" ultimately became fully subsumed under the (more or less) constant beliefs and expectations of Mystra's believers - along with (more or less) constant beliefs and expectations about how all magic (and the Weave) worked within the Realms. Any changes to "Mystra" (and magic, and the Weave) which were imposed by the actual Mystra-goddess personas themselves were subtle and ephemeral, their own wills and personalities were basically formatted to work only within the limits defined by their believers (and indeed, by every magic-using creature) in the Realms. Under 1E Deities and Demigods rules, I would say that Azuth was an "aspect" of Mystra - Mystra voluntarily split her own portfolio and powers, granting an exalted mortal with ascension to divinity and dominion over "spells and wizardry".
And in the Realms we had Tyche, who was irrevocably split into Tymora and Beshaba. These two "aspects" then both grew in power and, after passing millennia, each has become a major goddess (with a well-established faith) in her own right. I doubt that "good luck" and "bad luck" can ever be unified again under a single goddess, too many believers (and non-believers, and histories and traditions, and cultural expectations) perpetuate the existence these two goddesses.
We also have Tyr, who was maimed and blinded. While these injuries were the punitive result of Tyr (briefly and unwisely) attempting to defy Ao, they have now evolved over into symbolic elements in Tyr's teachings and faith. I'm sure that Tyr (as an "individual") still sometimes suffers pains from these injuries when troubled by holy wars and divisions of the church among his most zealous followers, Tyr will never "heal" or become "whole" because it's just not something any of his faithful believes can (or should) happen. So the "uninjured" aspect of Tyr has now forever been replaced by the "crippled" version of Tyr. And a curious observation here is that Realms-Tyr is himself just an "aspect" of a Generic-Tyr from some other world(s), the histories say Tyr arrived in the Realms at the vanguard of much godly fanfare many centuries ago - Realms-Tyr was just a seed of faith which drifted from some other world into this belief-fertile new world, took root in soil sanctified by the blood of fallen enemies, and has since grown into a lofty and flourishing tower of faith.
Tempus was once a god defined by constant conflict within his own temples. Each "division" of his faith belligerently championing their own image of Tempus, more than happy to bring holy war to other churches of Tempus who were misled by "false" or "unorthodox" beliefs in their god. I'm sure Lathander gets the odd headache when his many paladins have righteous disagreements, as well.
Consider the Earthmother goddess of the Moonshae folk. An "aspect" of Chauntea, and often thought to be simply the avatar of Chauntea herself in the Moonshae region. But the Earthmother is so fervently worshipped that she has powers over this place that Chauntea does not - and in the novels, the Earthmother's interests and actions are very contrary to Chauntea's interests, while Chauntea evidently chooses not to interfere.
And then there's Cyric. Driven to self-destruction by his unbridled ambition, opportunism, and insanity. Or was it the unbridled ambition, opportunism, and insanity of his (often forcibly-converted) faithful? Several novels and many scrolls have already been filled with detailed speculation about this.
I agree that there is a fundamental and unbreakable symmetry between deities and their believers. It's the nature of divinity - and it's also something which has deterred many powerful entities from seeking divinity as their means of achieving immortality. I let Ao's Decree stand for itself. I disagree with Wizbro's self-serving attempts to reshape (and retcon) the cosmos in their own image - their tinkerings are, to my mind, fated to ultimately suffer a fate not unlike that suffered by Cyric. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 16:58:35
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For the most part, I think the "aspect" idea was done away with in 5e (for which I am personally happy about). I like the variety of gods offered in the pre-Spellplague area. Raical pantheons in particular can represent the same thing (Hanali and Sune, for example), but as pointed out, they are the representation for that race. Hanali and Sune both have different personalities and histories.
Kelemvor is seen as the god of death, and while he is a "human" deity, he is multi-racial, in a sense, because of the position he holds. However, Sehanine is also seen as a goddess of death, though not in the same way Kel or Myrkul are. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 21:07:41
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I think it's important to consider the "Aspect" concept within the context that it is intertwined with the Spellplague, which was predicated by the actions of the Prince of Lies. Arcane & Divine are both forms of Magic, and there is no reason to presume that the "Aspect" concept wasn't anything other than some sort of "Divine Spellplague" that caused mortals to become confused and misinformed about the nature of their deities.
The Talos=Gruumsh concept never bothered me, but the Selune=Sehanine concept doesn't make sense. I am not a fan of retconning things. If they had come up with the idea that the Raven Queen was a title adopted by Sehanine to obtain worship from humans that might have made more sense, since she supposedly "died" to create Angharradh. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 23:22:00
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| Except that she didn't die. I know the word was put in quotations, but she didn't even disappear for a time. She remained part of the elven pantheon after Angharradh was made. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 14:26:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
Secret DM stuff:
Mortals don't ascend to godhood. They die, and their memories and the nature of their being are absorbed by the deity. The deity is still whatever aspect of reality it always was. The mortal merely "imprints" onto the deity and affects how it's consciousness works and how it manifests. But of course the nature of the deity is still determinde by the perception of the worshippers. Therefore someone who plans to ascend to godhood (not really) must have a significant amount of worshippers, or their imprint won't last very long.
I think this a great approach. It enables a lot of the contradictory lore about Deities to all remain valid despite being contradictory. Just as we are structured as multi-celled organisms, deities could be presented similarly as types of multi-souled organisms. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 00:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
The Talos=Gruumsh concept never bothered me, but the Selune=Sehanine concept doesn't make sense. I am not a fan of retconning things. If they had come up with the idea that the Raven Queen was a title adopted by Sehanine to obtain worship from humans that might have made more sense...
It makes more sense when seen from a "copyright" viewpoint. Talos was essentially Ed's invention in Ed's Realms, and Ed's Realms are essentially WotC's "property". Gruumsh is a Gygaxian legacy, not WotC's "property" and indeed the "property" of a competitor (at the time). This is all oversimplification, but WotC has always been territorial and aggressively overcontrolling about their Intellectual Properties (and Wizbro only made it worse because Hasbro is *big* on branding) - the boundaries of "ownership" can be blurry (legally challenged) on IP components that were inherited from TSR or created by former TSR/WotC employees who now work for/as WotC's competitors, but it's a lot more bulletproof with components developed exlusively in-house by WotC's staff. So each fundamental edition revision sees more stuff which is exclusively and distinctly created in-house for or by WotC, and less which was created by anyone else.
Not all of us are as forgiving about the "Talos=Gruumsh concept". And "Selune=Sehanine" doesn't make it any more palatable. Too many special (and utterly implausible) explanations continually preserve all those annoyingly-beloved frolicky Seldarines in Realmslore ... while entire human pantheons disappeared, dwarven and orcish deities suddenly became "redundant" and "lesser" aspects of their human "counterparts", and the vast majority of non-human deities were simply handwaved away. And then we have rushed introductions of the Raven Queen (any many other) "new" deities while countless other deities and deity-like entities (seen in the many iterations of Deities & Demigods or various Monster Manuals) were deliberately ignored.
Not wanting to rant it out here, but WotC has been too arbitrary, too controversial, too greedy, too sloppy, and too heavy-handed in their revisions for me to take their ongoing godslore seriously. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 19:13:48
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| I hear you Ayrik, and I'm definitely not defending arbitrary or implausible changes of godslore from edition to edition. The "Aspect" concept clearly wasn't thought through all the way. However, the idea that racial interloper deities would want to find ways to harness the worship of humans in order to expand their influence on the world makes sense to me. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 14:58:03
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The most unclear part of "Aspects" I have seen so far, is the Serpent Kingdoms (3.5) book, where Sseth (LE) had the aspect Varae (CN), and Sseth is trapped by Set (LE) who handle both the CE and CN worshippers... O.o
Then, is Varae a "fake aspect" of Sseth, in essence mershaulk/Sseth masquerading as a beast god deity eaten by Sseth? Then, if not (Varae as an aspect), would Set have "stolen" a semi independent part of Sseth?
Maybe this is an example from pre Spellplague era who is as confusing as the later 4e materials, but it shows the lore from the worshipping Creatures (Yuan-ti) view; they view, in my reading, the Varae aspect to really be a fake front to get more worshippers to Set; if thats true, might or might not be the case if i were to use the material in DMing.
Maybe a bit "confusion" is good, in the game? :) |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 18:34:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
The most unclear part of "Aspects" I have seen so far, is the Serpent Kingdoms (3.5) book, where Sseth (LE) had the aspect Varae (CN), and Sseth is trapped by Set (LE) who handle both the CE and CN worshippers... O.o
Then, is Varae a "fake aspect" of Sseth, in essence mershaulk/Sseth masquerading as a beast god deity eaten by Sseth? Then, if not (Varae as an aspect), would Set have "stolen" a semi independent part of Sseth?
Maybe this is an example from pre Spellplague era who is as confusing as the later 4e materials, but it shows the lore from the worshipping Creatures (Yuan-ti) view; they view, in my reading, the Varae aspect to really be a fake front to get more worshippers to Set; if thats true, might or might not be the case if i were to use the material in DMing.
Maybe a bit "confusion" is good, in the game? :)
If you say that Set absorbed Sseth and Varae was his aspect then Set absorbed Varae also. If Varae was another god under Sseth than he is still there. If Set only trapped Sseth and Varae is his aspect then it is strange that it is free. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 21:17:17
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I'm not bothered by the notion of divine aspects with differing alignments, personalities, and goals.
Deities can simultaneously maintain multiple avatars, and each avatar can be a completely "separate" individual. We naturally assume that these avatars all share the same appearance and personality, they're basically just copies of each other, and that they somehow magically "synchronize" or "integrate" within the self-whole-identity of the actual deity.
Realmslore describes deities simultaneously having multiple avatars with different genders, races, ages, and appearances. In some FR novels we see mutually-duped avatars of Mask deceiving and manipulating each other, we see mutually-secretive avatars of Shar being bitter adversaries, we see mutually-conflicting manifestations of Lathander crusading against each other, and mutually-ambitious avatars of Cyric zealously working on insanely contrary and suicidal schemes. I can easily imagine mutually-belligerent avatars of Tempus grimly championing opposing sides in a desperate battle, mutually-stubborn avatars of Tyr pedantically arguing over trivial legal decrees, and mutually-jealous avatars of Sune spitefully attempting to seduce the same lover. There have been extreme examples where one avatar or aspect of a deity actually destroys another, or where they diverge into entirely separate deities. It's often been suggested that a deity's belief, power, and identity are strongly interlinked and echo each other - I expect that schisms in the Faith, divisions in the Church or doctrine, and even actual conflict among the Faithful are all reflected (and caused) by a schizophrenic deity. A deity is not truly omniscient but still has power and complexity beyond mortal capacities, it is a being with multiple consciousnesses and experiences and thoughts and feelings, and it's held together by belief - maintaining aspects with vastly different alignments and objectives might in fact be the only "sane" option for such an entity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 21:51:41
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What Ayrik said. I think you may be over-thinking it, Starshade (or perhaps under-thinking it?)
Its hard to put a lot of these concepts into or mortal, human perspective. We are dealing with two completely foreign concepts to our mind - quantifying 'the divine', and also factoring-in 'aliens' (sentient beings that are not human), because thats what all non-human races are to us (not just "humans with pointy ears"). We are assuming here things other than human would even create religions (although in D&D, such things are canon).
A god has many avatars, each of which can be turned into an 'aspect'. The Old Old Empires supplement even named such self-willed avatars 'Manifestations'. I think there could even be such things as 'lesser' and 'greater' avatars (simple manifestation and complex, self-aware aspects). Gods can literally 'talk to themselves'. Think of it like a human with multiple-personality disorder - each separate and unique. One could be the nicest person in the world, while another personality could be a serial killer. Now imagine a mind 1000-fold more powerful than ours - how hard would that be to keep track of everything? All gods must be a tiny bit insane. So even though they basically know everything each aspect/avatar knows, depending upon the mental health of the being, each can be operating as a separate 'person' (with its own agenda, and even alignment). I picture Cyric behaving very much like Captain Jack Sparrow in At World's End - completely bonkers and interacting with all his 'other selves'.
So, you may have a case of a god absorbing another deity completely (although I hate to phrase it that way - nothing is truly 'lost forever' in D&D), or it could just have it chained up somewhere and be masquerading as it, or it could be that its only had one of its avatars absorb the other deity (creating an Aspect), and it is now semi-autonomous, or it could even be that they were ALL part of some greater whole 'way back when' and are now trying to 'reassemble' (and all gods may be doing this, like a great big 'lava lamp' of divinity, constantly swirling about absorbing & reabsorbing). I think something along these lines is whats happening with the reptilian deities.
And here's the rub - we just don't know what the true situation is. The gods themselves may not even know; two gods fighting over the same portfolio may have been the same being 10K years ago... and they may not even remember that. All this absorbing and re-separating constantly means their minds are constantly changing, and they could be losing memories, or it could be that the universe itself 'shifts' and what was once true, no longer is (getting back to my 'Dogma' theory). I think that the further an 'Aspect' shifts from the original, the more independent it becomes, and the God risks 'losing it' as it becomes fully autonomous (which means its power would take a dip). This is also how (I think) these tripartite/binary gods are formed - two different gods take a single avatar and 'weld' them together to form something new, either temporarily, or permanently. I further theorize that the longer they left them like this, the less chance of separating them later (I'm not talking days - I am talking YEARS - maybe even thousands of years).
On the other hand, an event like the ToT, or even the spellplague, could cause a lot of these 'separate pieces' to snap-back to the originals, which would go a long way in explaining why so many gods change every time we have one of these RSE's. Was Talos a part of Gruumsh before? Did either of them even know? Does it even matter, from a mortal perspective? If a human could have 16+ distinct and separate personalities living inside their heads, than what of a being with thousandfold the brain-power? What about one with nigh-infinite mental capacity? Could ALL the gods be 'aspects' living inside the head of a single, insane GOD? Could we? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2016 21:53:55 |
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Deity Aspects
