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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 17:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Another thought about Crown Wars era is that it seems to me that all elven High Magic was created from Sarrukh's Nether Scrolls. It is written that southern Ilithiri had great culture but have not mastered High magic (or at least Drow somehow lost it). Also it is written that Myeritar was greatest place for High magic learning and that Vyshaan lords coveted this knowledge. If you look at that Myeritar was closest to former center of magic research of sarrukh (Isstofil) it make sense to those discoveries. Also it seems they were hiding this source and proclaming they mastered it themselves. After Arthindol points Netheries towards this repository elves kept silent and tried to steal them back (later depositing the complete set of scrolls into Myth Drannor school of magic). It seems logical to me that Vyshans also found some remnants of this (hall of mists) and presumed the source under Myeritar lands. After they denied it's existance Vyshans launched attacks under influence of their demonic allies. As they were already corrupted I see no reason they wouldn't use full uncontrolled power to defeat their enemy (Dark Disaster). It might also be accident by either side from releasing some sarrukh experiment or failed ritual (possibly even side effect of their transformative magic into sharn).
This is way off. High Magic has nothing to do with the Nether Scrolls. There are actually a couple places that talk about this. High Magic is basically the ultimate expression of the idea that elves are more directly connected to the Weave than others. They are a part of the magic that others use. Whenever they could, elves tried to hide/discourage the more abrupt views of magic that were based on the Nether Scrolls.
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 20:15:04
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Apparently, the first elves who came to Toril did follow Faerie gods and not the Seldarine, at least according to the wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/-27000_DR
The Grand History of the Realms is quoted. I don't have access to that book, so I can't confirm whether it's really written there, though. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 20:26:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Apparently, the first elves who came to Toril did follow Faerie gods and not the Seldarine, at least according to the wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/-27000_DR
The Grand History of the Realms is quoted. I don't have access to that book, so I can't confirm whether it's really written there, though.
That refers to the elves (green and dark) who were already on Toril, not those who came from Tintageer (they brought the worship of the Seldarine to Toril).
I also remember, from Evermeet: Island of Elves, and from Demihuman Deities, that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were wandering on Toril, and also had dark elven followers, by the time when the first elves from Tintageer found Toril. In fact, when in that book Sharlario Moonflower travels to the south, not long after the opening of the portal from Tintageer to Faerun, he finds that the dark elves there worship Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur. He is also met by Eilistraee, who appears to him during his travel. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jul 2016 20:33:40 |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 21:20:28
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Wow, my opinion of the Seldarine hit a new low point. I remembered the page only because it said that Ilythiir was founded on land gained through negotiations and not like Aryvandaar, Miyeritar, etc on land taken as spoils of war or cleared after war from the dragons (not that dragons were particularly kind). Still compromising doesn't seem to be their strength.
On a different note, this is also from the wiki but wasn't Ghaunadaur "found" only a bit earlier than Evermeet's creation? If you want, I can try to find the page again. |
Edited by - sw1989 on 01 Jul 2016 21:21:07 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 21:33:53
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Well I can find no statement of fact in Elves of Evermeet or Cormanthyr which states that the ancient elves worshipped the Seldarine or that they even existed.
Demihuman Deities has a number of mythologies regarding the origin of elves and the worship of the Seldarine but myths and legends are just that and not a statement of fact.
GHoTR is where I got the quote of the Seldarine being fey lords but the mythology in Demihuman Deities already hints at that origin. The realms has evolved much since 2e came about and so should the understanding of the faiths. The Faerie realm is not the same as the material plane but without humans. It is a fey realm filled with fey creatures which at one point in time included elves (and possibly orcs). Organised worship or organisation in any form is not a recognised characteristic of fey creatures in many mythologies. They are whimsical ofttimes alien in their actions and motivations.
I'm not sure you can even have a god on the Faerie Plane (otherwise would the Seelie and Unseelie court not be filled with gods instead of fey lords). Belief is for mortals with free will and thus is for those of the material plane.
The novels may well depict something different. They may not I haven't read them (and don't intend to as the novels are another's story and as a DM I want to tell my own or help the players to tell theirs). Others may have interpreted things differently to me and that's fine. But the sourcebooks contradict each other and therefore I can be both right and wrong at the same time. I think I'm right and others may think I'm wrong. I personally prefer things to make more sense and have less super trolls solving and causing all the problems on Toril. So for me the Seldarine start out as fey lords and the early elves on Toril have a wide variety of minor regional deities that they worship. For me the Seldarine become gods with the descent of the drow. The price for their help in transforming the illythiiri is that the elves worship them and no others (obviously there are dissenters but the elves of the Elven Court and those they rescue from the Vyshaan soon embrace the new order). But then I like my deities to be selfish and manipulative..
As for the Nether Scrolls being the source of High Magic. I admit that idea seems a little against the lore of the Nether Scrolls (especially given George Krashos' recent articles developing their history further). However the Killing Storm spell also seems against the character of the elves even the proud gold elves.
Elves are about life and magic and everything positive and especially about elves. Developing a spell that uses magic to wipe out all life in an area for tens of thousands of years is pretty extreme even for an elf. Even if you had embraced the influence of Malkizid you would have to abandon everything that it means to be an elf in order to commit such an act.
The Nether Scrolls were left beneath the Hall of Mists sometime after -29500 DR and supposedly left undiscovered until the time of Netheril (when they were moved to a location that was easier to access).
We do know that in that time House Dlardrageth discovered the vault and built an armoury atop it (that was later sealed with High Magic after those of House Dlardrageth were imprisoned).
So why could the Vyshaan not have found the Baetith stronghold. Why could they not have discovered the Nether Scrolls. Why could they not have plumbed its secrets and been tainted. Why could they not have used those secrets to develop weapons that other elves would have found disgusting. Why could they not have developed the Killing Storm ritual as a direct result of these discovered secrets.
So if they did then how did the Nether Scrolls get back into the Hall of Mists. Maybe they didn't. Maybe Arthindol the Terraseer or another servant of Jergal had to go and retrieve them from some Vyshaan fortress and bring them back. Maybe after the Descent of the Drow the elves of Aryvandaar were horrified at what they had done or perhaps were afraid of what the Elven Court might do and so they tried to hide the scrolls back where they found them lest they be judged as tainted by dark magic like the drow.
Just an idea.
Thankfully the realms is so filled with conflicting accounts and blank spaces that one can come up with just about any idea and tie it into existing lore nicely with little effort. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 21:37:38
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quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Wow, my opinion of the Seldarine hit a new low point. I remembered the page only because it said that Ilythiir was founded on land gained through negotiations and not like Aryvandaar, Miyeritar, etc on land taken as spoils of war or cleared after war from the dragons (not that dragons were particularly kind). Still compromising doesn't seem to be their strength.
On a different note, this is also from the wiki but wasn't Ghaunadaur "found" only a bit earlier than Evermeet's creation? If you want, I can try to find the page again.
Well, to be fair to the elves, as soon as they (who were refugees back then) ''landed'' on Toril, they were attacked by chromatic dragons (altough the dracorage mythal was indeed a nasty move. But hey, elven hisotry is full of those). Idk if Ilythiir had the luck of dealing with metallic ones.
Btw, IIRC, Miyeritar was founded by (mostly) green and dark elves who were fleeing from Aryvandaar, and that was much later than many other elven kingdoms.
Ghaunadaur's faith wasn't big in Ilythiir, but in ''Evermeet'', he is worshiped by Ka'Narlist when Sharlario meets him, and he was already and old acquaintance of the Seldarine, and of Lolth, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The Wiki says that his worship started around the beginning the first flowering (quoting LEoF), so it's not off. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jul 2016 21:43:53 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 21:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I can find no statement of fact in Elves of Evermeet or Cormanthyr which states that the ancient elves worshipped the Seldarine or that they even existed.
Demihuman Deities has a number of mythologies regarding the origin of elves and the worship of the Seldarine but myths and legends are just that and not a statement of fact.
Cormanthyr speaks of priests of the Seldarine, of asking the drow to be cast out of Corellon's favor, and other stuff like that. So, it appears that, while they might have not been gods, they were more or less seen as such by the elves. Demihuman Deities includes their history--and that of the Dark Seldarine--but it doesn't seem to contradict Cormanthyr or other sources.
quote:
GHoTR is where I got the quote of the Seldarine being fey lords but the mythology in Demihuman Deities already hints at that origin. The realms has evolved much since 2e came about and so should the understanding of the faiths. The Faerie realm is not the same as the material plane but without humans. It is a fey realm filled with fey creatures which at one point in time included elves (and possibly orcs). Organised worship or organisation in any form is not a recognised characteristic of fey creatures in many mythologies. They are whimsical ofttimes alien in their actions and motivations.
Not all deities required organized worship, and rigid hierarchy, tho. In any case, fey lords or deities, it seems that they were worshiped by the elves, and could grant them spells.
quote:
The novels may well depict something different. They may not I haven't read them (and don't intend to as the novels are another's story and as a DM I want to tell my own or help the players to tell theirs).
Evermeet: Island of Elves expands on what it is said in Demihuman Deities, and adds flavor and details to it. It doesn't blow the world, or disregard previous lore, like other novels did.
But, ofc, as you say, it's all open to interpretation, and this is by no means meant as looking down on your own creative interpretation of the events. I prefer the Seldarine to start out as archfey myself (some of them still are, in my FR), although I don't like to portray supposedly good deities as manipulative and uncaring of their people. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jul 2016 22:01:59 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2016 : 01:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
As for the Nether Scrolls being the source of High Magic. I admit that idea seems a little against the lore of the Nether Scrolls (especially given George Krashos' recent articles developing their history further). However the Killing Storm spell also seems against the character of the elves even the proud gold elves.
Elves are about life and magic and everything positive and especially about elves. Developing a spell that uses magic to wipe out all life in an area for tens of thousands of years is pretty extreme even for an elf. Even if you had embraced the influence of Malkizid you would have to abandon everything that it means to be an elf in order to commit such an act.
The Nether Scrolls were left beneath the Hall of Mists sometime after -29500 DR and supposedly left undiscovered until the time of Netheril (when they were moved to a location that was easier to access).
We do know that in that time House Dlardrageth discovered the vault and built an armoury atop it (that was later sealed with High Magic after those of House Dlardrageth were imprisoned).
So why could the Vyshaan not have found the Baetith stronghold. Why could they not have discovered the Nether Scrolls. Why could they not have plumbed its secrets and been tainted. Why could they not have used those secrets to develop weapons that other elves would have found disgusting. Why could they not have developed the Killing Storm ritual as a direct result of these discovered secrets.
So if they did then how did the Nether Scrolls get back into the Hall of Mists. Maybe they didn't. Maybe Arthindol the Terraseer or another servant of Jergal had to go and retrieve them from some Vyshaan fortress and bring them back. Maybe after the Descent of the Drow the elves of Aryvandaar were horrified at what they had done or perhaps were afraid of what the Elven Court might do and so they tried to hide the scrolls back where they found them lest they be judged as tainted by dark magic like the drow.
Just an idea.
Thankfully the realms is so filled with conflicting accounts and blank spaces that one can come up with just about any idea and tie it into existing lore nicely with little effort.
I see Nether Scrolls only as well known artefact that holds core knowledges of Sarrukh's magic research (much like imaskarena). There should have been much more that never seen the light officialy. Those elves have been sitting on this for milenia and who knows what they did or didn't found but I am pretty sure they should have found at least some of it. Halls of Mist is only one known example that is still standing. Also I find strange how much elves held to that "forbidden knowledge" and tried really hard to "protect" good folks from reading it...
I also find curious how our Mage was offended by thought that virtuous elves might have not invented High Magic themselves :-) Each time somebody denies a subject so definitely it sparks my interest as I may have found something interesting. So please Masked Mage - try to think about it. |
Edited by - Wrigley on 02 Jul 2016 08:09:04 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2016 : 08:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
This is way off. High Magic has nothing to do with the Nether Scrolls. There are actually a couple places that talk about this. High Magic is basically the ultimate expression of the idea that elves are more directly connected to the Weave than others. They are a part of the magic that others use. Whenever they could, elves tried to hide/discourage the more abrupt views of magic that were based on the Nether Scrolls.
Just to focus on this some more.
Elves are not native Faeruninans, why should they be a part of Weive when they weren't there when it was created? They are even resistant to magical effects that says the opposite than attunement. Nether Scrolls are about magic and High Magic is magic. All those accounts are from elven books and elves are known to be biased heavily. We could also interpret their noble agenda as censorship and power grab. "We do it all for your protection" was misused so many times in our history that it rings false to me each time. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2016 : 16:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
This is way off. High Magic has nothing to do with the Nether Scrolls. There are actually a couple places that talk about this. High Magic is basically the ultimate expression of the idea that elves are more directly connected to the Weave than others. They are a part of the magic that others use. Whenever they could, elves tried to hide/discourage the more abrupt views of magic that were based on the Nether Scrolls.
Just to focus on this some more.
Elves are not native Faeruninans, why should they be a part of Weive when they weren't there when it was created? They are even resistant to magical effects that says the opposite than attunement. Nether Scrolls are about magic and High Magic is magic. All those accounts are from elven books and elves are known to be biased heavily. We could also interpret their noble agenda as censorship and power grab. "We do it all for your protection" was misused so many times in our history that it rings false to me each time.
I would say that magic flows through elves more than other races. Since the Weave is just an interface for magic, elves are more in tune with it.
You could also say that there have been enough intermarriage with the local elves to have made it a racial thing.
Or it could be that the magical nature of elves is a universal constant, and they adapted and grew into the Weave. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2016 : 01:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
5th edition's "Sword Coast Adventure Guide" says in the High Moor section that there was no evidence ever found that supports the connection between Arvandaar and the Dark Disaster.
I have to borrow the book yet but it seems that WotC decided to give DMs a lot of "wiggle room".
Or old good elfwashing again. 
Anyway, from Cormanthyr:
quote:
Even the elves are unclear over the course of events that led to the catastrophe, though it
centered on conquered Miyeritar and the resistors to Aryvandaan rule therein. Some speak
of High Mage sympathizers within Miyeritar harnessing forbidden, blasphemous magics
against their elves, a taboo never before broken by elves, no matter how mad. Others point
to the gold High Mages of Aryvandaar, their political and familial connections with
the now-recognizably power-mad Vyshaantar clan, and their greater number and greater powers.
[...]
Ninety dark elf wizards and a trio of High Mages of Miyeritar chose to face it and fight,
though what became of them is lost, for they headed to the heart of the storm a month
after its origin, seeking the place of power where they could cast a counterspell against
the storm; like all else within the storm's envelope, there was naught left behind to find
but ash and ichor.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Elves are not native Faeruninans, why should they be a part of Weive when they weren't there when it was created?
I'm pretty sure that "magical creature born in (or naturalized to) Realmspace" is enough to count as part of the Weave. Maybe even simply "magical creature within Realmspace". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2016 : 05:31:55
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| could ikt be when elves first arrived on Faerun (or even before) Corellian and Mystral made some sort of deal? |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2016 : 11:19:36
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Or old good elfwashing again.
Let us hope it stays "wiggle room". Though I fear it won't, given that WotC has returned to the "inherently evil/good" classification of creatures. |
Edited by - sw1989 on 03 Jul 2016 11:21:54 |
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Ilythiir question about atrocity
