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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  09:39:24  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
In TSR 9274 (FR10) Old Empires, there are snippets of lore about the Enclave of Unther. It is one of two wizarding societies based in Unther mentioned in that book, along with the Northern Wizards of Messemprar.

Two wizards of the Enclave are mentioned, Isimud and Esarheddon.

In the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Isimud is mentioned as the leader of the Northern Wizards. The short-hand stats fit Shurlash, who was previously the leader of the Northern Wizards, a lot better than Isimud and in my campaign, I have assumed that the names simply got mixed up.

There is a short mention of them in the Dragon Article 'War on the Sands', as well.

I was wondering if there is any further mention of the Enclave in other products, novels or articles.

What have scribes done with the Enclave?

In my campaign, the urban Northern Wizards were a lot closer to a traditional wizards' guild; with a formal system of apprenticeships, shared facilities for research and teaching, cooperative arcane ventures and a vested interest in the social mileu in which they exist. That, in turn, made it easier for them to transition to a quasi-government.

The Enclave, on the other hand, appears to be a secret society. They are resolutely non-political and their headquarters are secret.

What does this mean for their organisation?

How do they recruit? Why? Whom?

What are their goals?

Are they dedicated to any particular kind of arcane research? Historical research? No research at all, but instead some kind of preservation of knowledge they already have?

In my campaign, I've posited them as students of ancient magicks of the Old Empires, which means in part that of the Imaskari and their inheritors. Their secret headquarters are in an ancient extraplanar nexus of Imaskari construction. From there, they can access parts of the ancient Imskari portal network.*

I haven't really developed any other members of the Encalve apart from Isimud and Esarheddon. Now, however, I find myself in a position where I need 6-8 movers-and-shakers of the Enclave and I was wondering who these people would be.

Are they all Untheri or do Enclave members come from neighbouring countries as well?

Would it make sense to make the Enclave really old and have it continue to recruit in all territories that were once a part of Old Unther? This would fit their non-political nature, as they would have avoided taking any kind of stance during the wars for liberation by the North Coast cities and Chessenta.

One possible origin for the Enclave that I find interesting to imagine is that the Turami people who had settled the area that would become Unther had already developed a society of scholars and mages who delved into Imaskari ruins in the region before the Mulan arrived there. At first, the Mulan would have persecuted them, as they intermittently persecuted the Turami throughout their history, but at some point, there would have emerged a modus vivendi.

Over the centuries then, the Turami scholars came to accept into their ranks any of the arrivistes who had a scholarly interest in magic, as opposed to a desire to use it for wordly power.

Does this origin work at all? Does it make the Enclave too ancient and thus too potentially powerful?

*Though there are many risks involved in using the most useful of those and only a few portals are in regular use.

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  21:51:20  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't got involved too much in this region but from what I gathered Northern Wizards are a remnant of first Thayd rebellion that included later Untheric region (former western province of Imaskari) and also Murghom that was devastated as mulhorandi putted down wizard's rebellion. From this time wizards usualy weren't presenting their status openly so some form of secrecy is logical. After some three milenia new rebellion in Thay finaly succeded but some were left in their home and did not follow zulkirs. Also they had to suvive until that time by themselves somehow...
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2016 :  13:15:19  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Attributing something to imaskari has become the default of late (along with netheril or creator races) so I tend to steer clear of it.

For me the enclave exists because of gilgeams paranoia and so was probably born only in unthers history.

Gilgeam won't allow anything to become a threat to him and so organised wizard groups must be a big no no in unther (until gilgeams death). The enclave was likely formed sometime after Gilgeam descended into madness as a means to preserve the wizarding lore of unther (which although influenced by imaskari would be different by that time).

The enclave may have been linked to the black flame wizards (can't remember their name) that influenced the magic of the red wizards and was spread throughout unther, or they could have been rivals.

Their base could well have been an old imaskari extra planar hideaway but the utilisation of it might have been because of an accidental discovery rather than the original headquarters of the enclave.

As for the northern wizards, I'd have linked them to the rebellion of the wizards reach from unther/chessenta, it gives the name double meaning and a political link to potential allies on the north coast of the alamber.

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Korginard
Learned Scribe

USA
126 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2016 :  18:14:53  Show Profile  Visit Korginard's Homepage Send Korginard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would be interesting for them to have ties to the Red Wizards without actually being under their thumb. For a long time they would have served as "secret" allies outside Thay that various Red Wizards used as tools to help their ambitions.
Times change however and by the time Zsass Tam began his takeover, the Enclave was instantly in a prime position to offer safe havens for those fleeing Thay.
Most of the info I have seen is that the Thayan Merchant Enclaves outside of Thay were pretty much left to fend for themselves after Tamm took over Thay. What if the Enclave took in several Red Wizards, Perhaps even a Zulkir or two and became the new hidden backers of the "Thayan" Enclaves? Instead of saying "Hey! We're not Thay anymore so don't worry about us" (Which no one would believe), the Enclave keeps up the appearance of the "Evil Red Wizard Shopping Network" and banks off of all the adventurers and others who get their kicks off of buying stuff from those "Evil Thayan Wizards" The fact of the matter is the personnel running the Enclaves doesn't change much, so there will still be shady deals and ambitious plots. They just don't have the backing of Thay behind them anymore. It would be up to the Enclave itself to determine how they wish to influence the cities and markets the Merchant Enclaves are in. Just because they're not Thay doesn't mean they have perfectly good intentions! :)

Besides, the Enclave being behind the Enclaves? How perfect is that?
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2016 :  18:47:54  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The new Zulkir of Transmutation Samas Kul has most of his power based in enclaves. As he opposes Tam he is realy not going to left source of his income and power to somebody else. He could ally with them closely to receive support for his continuation of enclave trade as it will need some extrenal bases of operation. I believe their alliance with Red Wizards actualy came from common background and Red Wizards heavy support of Unther's defence wasn't just against Mulhorand. I see them as cousins helping each other for a long time now.
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Korginard
Learned Scribe

USA
126 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2016 :  19:31:10  Show Profile  Visit Korginard's Homepage Send Korginard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps Samas Kul could be using the Enclave as his new power base. His original intention would of course be to immediately take over and control the Enclave from within. How successful he has been would depend on the other high ranking members of the Enclave and their ability to counter his ambitions with their own. If his main priority is success of the Enclaves, then he may have had to make some concessions. It doesn't necessarily mean he's handed over all control. He's simply had to adapt and work within a new power structure since his old one in Thay had collapsed.
On the other hand it's possible he was able to take over and now controls his Enclaves through THE Enclave. That's the boring option however, I'd much prefer to see him having to work with/against several other high rollers in THE Enclave. He can't outright control them, but needs their support. I think it would be fun to perhaps have another of the former Zulkir's who joined the Enclave, as well as original Enclave members who are a match for him in power and status within the group. This would create the kinds of internal struggles and intrigue that's always so fun to find in these kinds of groups.
Every Wizard group seems to be either Good or Evil. I'd like to see a Neutral group that has some good and some evil, but mostly just a lot of pragmatism. They do things because of practicality rather than good or evil ambitions.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2016 :  21:14:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So... Why whould fleeing Thayans embrace this non-Thayan Enclave, when they could simply work with their own fellows and existing infrastructure in Mulmaster, which was practically under Thayan control already?

Note: I'm not knocking the idea of Thayans allying with this other Enclave, I'm just questioning why they'd embrace a foreign group in place of their own setup.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Feb 2016 22:08:46
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2016 :  22:57:03  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mulmaster is in the hands of Zhentarim and Dmitra Flass (tharchion of Eltabbar). I would say Kul made a deal with Enclave elders that he will provide them with magical knowledge and some items and in return they will provide a new base of operation for Red Wizard enclaves that he control. He is probably into securing other enclaves and in the meantime bettering his position in Enclave itself using his expirience as zulkir.

I there any more cannon information about Enclave itself and its workings? I would presume they are the remain of old Imaskari magical tradition with some artefacts from that age possibly, using extradimensional space or some portals to remain hidden during Gilgelam's reign. Now they are basicaly trying to rule northern Unther so they could use some help too.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2016 :  00:35:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

Mulmaster is in the hands of Zhentarim and Dmitra Flass (tharchion of Eltabbar). I would say Kul made a deal with Enclave elders that he will provide them with magical knowledge and some items and in return they will provide a new base of operation for Red Wizard enclaves that he control. He is probably into securing other enclaves and in the meantime bettering his position in Enclave itself using his expirience as zulkir.


As I recall, the Red Wizards practically controlled Mulmaster... It makes a lot more sense for them to consolidate power where they already have power, as opposed to joining another group that has its own goals and trying to build power from there.

Again, I don't see an issue with an alliance between the two -- I just don't see how the Red Wizards get anything out of abandoning an established power base and joining someone else's.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2016 :  09:08:58  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I haven't got involved too much in this region but from what I gathered Northern Wizards are a remnant of first Thayd rebellion that included later Untheric region (former western province of Imaskari) and also Murghom that was devastated as mulhorandi putted down wizard's rebellion. From this time wizards usualy weren't presenting their status openly so some form of secrecy is logical. After some three milenia new rebellion in Thay finaly succeded but some were left in their home and did not follow zulkirs. Also they had to suvive until that time by themselves somehow...


While I would love to have a link between the original Red Wizards and the Northern Wizards*, I don't see how a group of Untheri wizards can have been in rebellion against Mulhorand. Until the invasion of DR 1371, Unther was a rival empire that was completely independent of Mulhorand. Messemprar, the home base of the Northern Wizards, has never in history been controlled or even influenced by Mulhorand.

*Both in opposition against the status quo in the Old Empires, but with those who became the Red Wizards associating with fiends whereas the Northern Wizards turned to worship of Mystra alongside their native gods of magic.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2016 :  09:15:07  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I there any more cannon information about Enclave itself and its workings? I would presume they are the remain of old Imaskari magical tradition with some artefacts from that age possibly, using extradimensional space or some portals to remain hidden during Gilgelam's reign. Now they are basicaly trying to rule northern Unther so they could use some help too.


You are probably thinking of the Northern Wizards. They are headquartered in Messemprar in Northern Unther (not Mulmaster, which is in the Moonsea) and are the most powerful group in what is left of Free Unther. There is a large Thayan Enclave in Messemprar and Thay has an obvious strategic interest in Unther remaining free of Mulhorandi control, but the Northern Wizards are unlikely allies for the Thayans, seeing as the worship of Mystra flourishes alongside the worship of Ishtar (Isis) among the mages of the group.

The Enclave has little influence in Northern Unther. All the sites where their secret headquarters might be located are in southern Unther and it seems they are concentrated somewhere close to the Greenfields. They are also resolutely apolitical and refuse to rule any territory or even attempt to gain influence behind the scenes.

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2016 :  18:03:51  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I there any more cannon information about Enclave itself and its workings? I would presume they are the remain of old Imaskari magical tradition with some artefacts from that age possibly, using extradimensional space or some portals to remain hidden during Gilgelam's reign. Now they are basicaly trying to rule northern Unther so they could use some help too.


You are probably thinking of the Northern Wizards. They are headquartered in Messemprar in Northern Unther (not Mulmaster, which is in the Moonsea) and are the most powerful group in what is left of Free Unther. There is a large Thayan Enclave in Messemprar and Thay has an obvious strategic interest in Unther remaining free of Mulhorandi control, but the Northern Wizards are unlikely allies for the Thayans, seeing as the worship of Mystra flourishes alongside the worship of Ishtar (Isis) among the mages of the group.

The Enclave has little influence in Northern Unther. All the sites where their secret headquarters might be located are in southern Unther and it seems they are concentrated somewhere close to the Greenfields. They are also resolutely apolitical and refuse to rule any territory or even attempt to gain influence behind the scenes.



It is possible as I have only rough idea about those groups. However their connection to Thayd rebellion is clear for me as Imaskari empire was from Chesenta to Kara-Tur and Thay was its northern teritory. After Mulhorandi and Untheric dieties came and toppled their empire formerly one people of this slave race splitted into Untherians and Mulhorandi (possibly two nations in the begining). However those Imaskari were in all those lands so their teaching and way of life was continued in some fasion in all those places and Thayd rebellion for me was their effort to return to magocracy of imaskari. As Unther is quite far from Thay plateu I can understand that not all of those wizards left to form Thay and instead continued their own underground tradition in Unther. They just become more visible once Gilgelam passed. The support of free Unther is clear illustration of this for me and I belive that similar alliance will be with Enclave. But I agree that I need more information to make my opinion.
My group is based in Moonsea so I am aware that Mulmaster is not Messemprar and I still believe that Mulmaster is already full to host another power group (or new faction Red Wizards).
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2016 :  02:31:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a note on the idea of fleeing Zulkirs heading to Unther during the civil war. IIRC, the order of events was the spellplague happened, then the other Zulkirs were forced to flee Thay. So, at that point, there would have been no Unther to flee to, as the empire of the dragonborn would have been in place.

I can definitely see the Thayans fleeing to Mulmaster though. I could see the schools of enchantment (because Lauzoril's political bent fits the city) and illusion (because of Dmitra Flass) and possibly divination (because the cloaks also specialize in divinations) having large numbers of members going there. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Thayans didn't create new settlements nearby in return for magical aid.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2016 :  16:41:38  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

It is possible as I have only rough idea about those groups. However their connection to Thayd rebellion is clear for me as Imaskari empire was from Chesenta to Kara-Tur and Thay was its northern teritory.

The Imaskari Empire appears to have had its westernmost outpost in the forest of Metos, now part of Unther. Chessenta and the cities of the Wizard Reach were never Imaskari, they were Untheric (and mostly founded more than a millenia after the fall of Imaskar).

There was an Imaskari outpost on the northern shore of the Sea of Fallen Stars, in what would become the coastal area of Thay three millenia later, but the Imaskari never penetrated into the interior of Thay. That was the Mulhorandi Empire, much later.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

After Mulhorandi and Untheric dieties came and toppled their empire formerly one people of this slave race splitted into Untherians and Mulhorandi (possibly two nations in the begining).

Don't forget the five centuries that elapsed between the fall of Imaskar and the founding of Mulhorand and Unther. There was little or no Imaskari or slave population in the areas that would become Mulhorand and Unther, only a few border forts. When these areas were settled again, they were settled from the east, from where the heartlands of Imaskar had once been and where for five centuries, the survivors of the fall of Imaskar had no doubt raised many petty kingdoms and tribal confederations in the meantime, now lost to time.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

However those Imaskari were in all those lands so their teaching and way of life was continued in some fasion in all those places and Thayd rebellion for me was their effort to return to magocracy of imaskari.

For Thayd, it may have been. But Unther and Mulhorand were founded some five centuries after the fall of Imaskar and Thayd was born some ten centuries after that. The Red Wizards, in turn, came along as long after Thayd as we are from Caesar Augustus, the first Roman Emperor, or Boudica, the Queen of the Iceni.

Historical figures of the ancient past may be used as political symbols by modern people, but that doesn't mean that anyone in modern Britain is seriously fighting for the cause of the Iceni people and Boudica.

Also, by the time that the Mulhorandi and Untheri peoples arrived in the lands that would become Unther and Mulhorand, it was more than five hundred years since there had been even frontier outposts of the Imaskari located there. There were Stone Age aborigines living there and most of the lands were wilderness.

While antiquaries and historians of the Mulan no doubt learned a great deal from excursions into Imaskari ruins over the centuries, there was no direct continuity of culture or learning from Imaskar to the Old Empires. As a real world analogue, imagine if the Western Roman Empire had collapsed much more thoroughly and Spain and France were resettled by tribesmen formerly under Roman control only in the 10th century.

Or, well, take the example of 10th century Britain. The Anglo-Saxon kingdoms of Britain had been founded by former Roman tributaries on former Roman territory, but any Roman culture and learning they had access to came from abroad, not from having built on top of Roman ruins.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

As Unther is quite far from Thay plateu I can understand that not all of those wizards left to form Thay and instead continued their own underground tradition in Unther. They just become more visible once Gilgelam passed.

Thayd led a rebellion of wizards from both Unther and Mulhorand. The much later Red Wizards rebelled only against Mulhorand and the Pharoah. Why would Untheri wizards rebel against a nation and a ruler which did not have any authority over them?

Also, keep in mind that Thay is formed 2,000 years after Thayd's rebellion. His name was invoked by the Red Wizards as a symbol of resistance against the Pharoah, but there is no real reason to assume that there was any kind of continuity between Thayd's and his fellow wizards and the ones who established Thay.

Groups who use the name of a man who may have lived 2,000 years ago on modern Earth are not necessarily doing something that the man would have recognised or agreed with. The Westboro Baptist Church, ISIS and Mormons all use the name of Jesus as a key figure in their religious iconography, but they share very little in goals, methods and beliefs. A 150 years ago, the Taiping Rebels fought under the banner of Jesus' younger brother, but that is not to say that they had much in common politically or religiously with a Middle Eastern member of a Jewish splinter sect from some 19 centuries back.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

The support of free Unther is clear illustration of this for me and I belive that similar alliance will be with Enclave.


Thay supports free Unther for geopolitical reasons that make sense entirely aside from any theoretical historical tie. If Mulhorand defeats and annexes all of former Unther, it will become a lot more powerful and pose a great threat to the security of Thay. Even if Thay did not fear an invasion by the Mulhorandi (which they do), Mulhorandi control over all the ports in the south-eastern Sea of Fallen Stars would represent an economic disaster for Thay.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2016 :  17:10:32  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While I am not averse to postulating a deep historical tie between the modern Enclave and Untheri wizards who rebelled against the God-Kings in ages past, such a tie would be of academic interest only. It might be a good story to explain why the Enclave resolutely rejects all involvement in politics, intrigue and revolutions.

The founders would have been those wizards of 11th century BCE Unther who were not satisfied with the rule of the God-Kings and avoided attachment to his court, but nevertheless did not join Thayd's ill-fated rebellion.

They'd have seen friends and colleagues lose their lives in rutheless magical combat, lived through persecutions and witch-hunts after the rebellion and witnessed even those who were merely luke-warm for one side or the other suffer the consequences of violent political factionalism. They'd also have seen the loss of irreplacable magical secrets, historical lore and scientific knowledge as the towers of wizards and priests on both sides of political violence burned.

It would make sense for the Enclave to be founded after this time, pledging non-involvement in any political disputes in return for being promised peace to carry out magical, historical and scientific studies. At the time, Enlil was the God-King of Unther and it seems in character that he might have given them a charter to be 'an Enclave of pure knowledge' amidst the treacherous currents of intrigue, warfare and politics in the Untheri Empire.

After all, if those wizards who for one reason or another were not enamored of rule by God-King were sworn to non-interference in politics, it would at least be better than them possibly rising again in rebellion. Of course, he'd like it best if all wizards were sworn to his service, but that level of social control is not always practical, especially not over a group which has the communication and mobility advantages of mages.

This makes the Enclave distinct from the Northern Wizards, as well as from the Red Wizards. It gives them a character all of their own, as a society dedicated to the study of magic, the past and the world for its own sake.

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2016 :  17:21:42  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Icelander:your explanation definitely make sense in human mindset but you are entirely ignoring the fact that in realms there are beings (godkings, mages, undead, planars, elves, ...) who can live very long and keep history recent. That is imho reason for this blurred timeline in the past (like before 0 DR most events take way too much time) and if you think about it in different perspective it otherwise loose sense very fast.
In comparison to Earth (circa 15000 years of civilisation) the Realms are ancient (more than 30000 years of several cultures). //hope no creationists around or sarrukhs are busted//

I haven't seen any complete map of Imaskari territory but I think there were some mention of their presence west of Unther. In my realms even Skuld is outside of central imaskar (and their planar barrier ended just on that coast).

About Thayd rebellion as a reason for Enclave non-involvement politics - this seems like very good idea to me.
Their original main purpose might have been preservation of magical lore through mulan witchhunts as you mentioned but it could changed in time with the change of leadership. Currently they seems to still remember their lesson and do not interfere in Unther's troubles. I suppose that they would be on friendly terms with Haalruan mages as they are open for them and do not try to force secrets from haalrua. There might even be some haalruan teacher in Enclave that decided to stay there and share the knowledge. You could also make some more power hungry members that try to claim positions in Enclave to use it for themselves (possibly some renegade Red Wizard that was accepted here). Some members could also try to change things due to family ties in Unther or other obligation outside Enclave. Otherwise they should be very peaceful and quiet community of scholars.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2016 :  21:47:04  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've decided that the Inner Council is probably secretive. Given that the headquarters of the Enclave is a closely kept secret it's a fair bet that members aren't advertising their existence.

So aside from Esarhaddon and Isimud, whom the PCs already know, the other members of the Inner Council that they meet will be hooded, cowled or otherwise concealed and they will not give their names, but instead nicknames or sort of titles.

These are the names that I'm considering introducing them by:

Gatekeeper (female, youngish to judge by shape and voice, perfect accent-free Common without any regional identifiers)
Stormshaper (male, very tall, moves deliberately, speaks good-but-slightly accented [Shaaran if anyone knows enough to spot it] Common in a deep, authoritative voice)
Auntie Indigo (shapely and buxom young lady of Durpari speech, heritage and dress, without a mask or cowl, who Esarhaddon quickly clarifies "doesn't really look like that")
Dreamer-of-the-Lost (male of average height, slender, quiet voice, didactic to the point of pedantry, speaks High Untheric by preference, but perfect Chessentan or slightly accented Chondathan if pressed)
The Namer (male, short, plump, does not speak)
Knower-of-the-Way (male, average height, average build, raspy, unpleasant voice, speaks what appears to be native Untheric and accented Common)

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 18 Feb 2016 :  22:20:56  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would be cooler to come up with those names in Untheric and give the players the Common translation as appropriate.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Icelander
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Posted - 18 Feb 2016 :  22:45:50  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It would be cooler to come up with those names in Untheric and give the players the Common translation as appropriate.

-- George Krashos


My idea was that they'd be introduced to the PCs by Esarhaddon in Common, because some of the PCs don't speak Untheric. Some of them are translations of titles or nicknames in other, often dead, languages.

For example, Auntie Indigo sometimes goes by the nickname 'Khala Vhasma' in Var the Golden, where she is from, but her real name is Nismet Saqalambar.

Stormshaper is a nickname for a man named Mumakar Aleymayehu in the Shaaran language (or at least one of its dialects), but I don't know what it should be in Shaaran. Suggestions?

The woman known as Gatekeeper is really named Kandalanu Alemayehu. Gatekeeper ought to be an archaic title either from a lost language which the Turami indigenes of the area that became Unther spoke or a post-Imaskari dialect that predates Untheric. No idea how to come up with that. Could be anything that sounds cool and sufficiently foreign. Would be good if it was not recognisably Semitic.

Dreamer-of-the-Lost should be a translation of a title for 'historian' in an archaic dialect of High Untheric. It's what a man named Lidangula dumu Ninip likes to call what he does. For ancient Untheric, I've usually just used Akkadian words, but Sumerian terms appear there as well.

The Namer is actually refered to as some variation of 'the Namer' in whatever language you are speaking. It is by no means proper noun, but instead a term used specifically to avoid using a proper noun.

Knower-of-the-Way should be an Imaskari title. It's what the scholar of Imaskar named Ahiyababa described himself as when asked for a nickname or title to use instead of his name. Any ideas for an Imaskari term for this?

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Edited by - Icelander on 18 Feb 2016 22:52:52
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Icelander
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Posted - 24 Feb 2016 :  14:02:03  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since I was doing this, I've decided to flesh out the whole Inner Council for my campaign. The Enclave is described as the 'most powerful' group of wizards in Unther, rivalled in the whole Old Empires only by the wizards that worship Thoth in Mulhorand.

To me, that argues that they are fairly numerous, as far as groups of mages go, and that the senior members are quite old and powerful. So I've made the Inner Council consist of twelve members, with Isimud the most powerful (but not oldest) and Esarhaddon still as the youngest (but now least powerful).

Most of the Inner Council are more interested in learning, research, history and magic than wordly power. Some of them have far-ranging interests and others are focused on a narrow field of research. Membership is open to any scholar of Southern magic, as long as he does not have an ulterior motive in infiltrating the group. The Enclave is wary of Thayans and the Mulhorandi Churches both, as both groups are more interested in controlling the Enclave than in helping their researches.

Untheric wizards throughout history have usually been employed either by nobles or by the imperial court. The Enclave has welcomed many scholars who tired of the cutthroat politics involved in either and wished for peace to carry out their studies.

Untheric society has also gone through periodic waves of racial exclusivity, where pure-blooded Mulan ancestry traced back to the mythic era before the Fall of Imaskar was a prerequisite for social advancement. From the beginning, the Enclave has been willing to accept wizards and scholars of Turami, Shaaran and Durpari blood alongside Mulan of the oldest families.

This openness has served them well, especially when the descendants of Tamrat Tabib, the great Turami wise man who found an Imaskari portal nexus and spent his lifetime studying it, eventually joined the Enclave and provided it with a secret headquarters few could ever find. The modern descendants of Tamrat who share his passion for investigation of portals to elsewhere have taken the name Alemayehu for their clan, a word in a dead language of the Turami of the Methwood which means 'I have seen the world'. Several of them are respected members of the Enclave.

The Enclave have a cordial relationship with the Amethyst Sodality of Ulgarth, although only senior members of the Enclave are trusted with information on that secretive brotherhood. They also maintain friendly relations with scholar-mages in Chessenta and the Shining Lands, with scholars of the Enclave having gone to the College of Wizardry in Cimbar and the Gathering of Magicians in Heldapan to research and lecture.

Relations with the churches of Thoth and Isis in Mulhorand are more cautious, as many within the Enclave suspect that the church bureaucracy is still interested in mounting a take-over of the Enclave, but individual scholar-mages on both sides can and do maintain friendly correspondance.

Individual members of the Enclave also have cordial relations with scholar-mages elsewhere in Toril, whether in the neighbourhood, as with mages from the cities of the Wizard's Reach, or further away, such as in Calimshan, in Halruaa and even in Kara-Tur and Zakhara. Only Thayans are nearly universally distrusted among the Enclave, the legacy of several treacherous Red Wizards who attempted to infiltrate its ranks and steal both secrets and magic away.

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Bladewind
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Posted - 25 Feb 2016 :  18:03:59  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Being secretive might have been a reaction to the prosecution of the Enclave that Gilgeam ordered somewhere in the mid 1350ies DR. The wytchhunt was carried out by lord Shuruppak, Gilgeam's personal 'Reaper'. Shuruppak failed to oust them but killed several of the Enclaves members with his supernaturally sharp greatsword before being forced to flee back to his master. I doubt other mercenaries dared to enforce Gilgeams words after word of his failed mission got widespread, though.

Perhaps he failed because of their secrecy and local knowledge of portal magics, potent defences in a magical skirmish, and Shuruppak went in unprepared (hearing about their supposed venier of being back-country wizards). Suddenly facing well prepared and supported hit and run attacks while on their hometurf.

Speaking of which... Before Gilgeams mad decree, the Enclave must have had a more central location were they gathered to store, share and catalogue knowledge. If they felt threatened by Gilgeam enough they might have quickly secured this place to have its contents be moved elsewhere. Losing such (a) place(s) would call for future secrecy as well.

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Icelander
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Posted - 25 Feb 2016 :  18:42:03  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Being secretive might have been a reaction to the prosecution of the Enclave that Gilgeam ordered somewhere in the mid 1350ies DR. The wytchhunt was carried out by lord Shuruppak, Gilgeam's personal 'Reaper'. Shuruppak failed to oust them but killed several of the Enclaves members with his supernaturally sharp greatsword before being forced to flee back to his master. I doubt other mercenaries dared to enforce Gilgeams words after word of his failed mission got widespread, though.

I didn't see anything that indicated when Gilgeam ordered Shuruppak to bring in the Enclave. It was before 1357 DR, but it could just as easily have happened several decades before that.

It's brought up in FR10 Old Empires as a story of the one time Shuruppak failed, so stylistically and linguistically, I'd feel it was more natural if the events were some time in the past, not the last thing he did before the time of writing.

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Perhaps he failed because of their secrecy and local knowledge of portal magics, potent defences in a magical skirmish, and Shuruppak went in unprepared (hearing about their supposed venier of being back-country wizards). Suddenly facing well prepared and supported hit and run attacks while on their hometurf.

FR10 Old Empires makes it sound like the most powerful members of the Enclave were just a lot more powerful than Shuruppak.

Isimud the Seeker was a 24th level arcane spellcaster in 1357 DR. Even if no one else on the Inner Council was quite that powerful, I don't have any problem believing in a 24th level mage and several of his friends being too much for a 20th level Fighter, even if Shuruppak also has 7 levels of wizard. Sure, Shuruppak had back-up, in the form of several mages and priests in the service of Gilgeam, but an Inner Council of mysterious and secretive mages led by a 24th level mage still sounds pretty damn tough even without special preparation or advantages.

quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Speaking of which... Before Gilgeams mad decree, the Enclave must have had a more central location were they gathered to store, share and catalogue knowledge. If they felt threatened by Gilgeam enough they might have quickly secured this place to have its contents be moved elsewhere. Losing such (a) place(s) would call for future secrecy as well.


Well, they are described as the 'mysterious Enclave' in FR10 Old Empires, so I'm assuming that secrecy had been a feature of the organisation for a good while.

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Icelander
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Posted - 27 Feb 2016 :  20:24:19  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I named and detailed twelve members of the Inner Council before it occured to me that despite the Enclave being located in southern Unther, perhaps some of the Inner Council members should be descended from the Wizard's Reach or Chessenta.

Well, actually, at least one of my Inner Council very obviously has Chessentan, Durpari and Turami blood mixed with her Untheri blood and her patronymic is Chessentan. I imagine that in an empire where Unther has ruled over many other ethnicities for millenia, that is more the rule than the exception for anyone not from a noble family obsessed with the purity of blood and ancestry.

But there is no one with a Chessentan or Wizard's Reach name. Instead of striking out some of the characters I already have, I thought I might postulate some former members of the Inner Council, perhaps killed by Shuruppak, who descend from these Old Untheran dominions. These might then have sons and daughters who are not yet sitting on the Inner Council, but might get there soon.

Would scribes consider this enough?

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