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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 12:50:27
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It's from Evermeet: Island of the Elves:
"The claiming of the king-making swords was set for twilight on the eve of the summer solstice — a time of powerful magic. From all over Aber-toril, elven nobles gathered in the forests of Cormanthyr for the ceremony. With them came High Magi, three hundred of them, one for each of the swords."
But Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves says:
"An aged elf, the Grand Mage Ethlando at Elven Court linked all the rituals, and High Magic flowed across Toril, binding all the elven High Mages in solemn ceremony. Each elven civilization at that time created at least 25 moonblades for their clans, both noble elder Houses to commoner clans alike. In Arcorar's northern glades, 100 were created for the combined nobles and clans of that great forest's three realms." |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 06 Jan 2016 13:06:04 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 15:24:15
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| I'm not sure they answered to the nobles. It seems they assisted the noble clans in this particular issue... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 17:19:00
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| If I'm not mistaken, Amlauril was of the Moonflower clan. It's been quite a while since I read Evermeet, so I could be wrong. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 10:39:01
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| Yes, she was of the Moonflower clan, a distant relative of Zaor himself. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 12:49:38
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From the Evermeet: Island of the Elves novel we know this:
"Zaor had not been long in Evermeet. He was one of the few survivors of Myth Drannor's fall who had sought refuge in the island kingdom." |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 15:11:36
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Moral of the story about all this is that pretty much every source talking about moonblades is a little bit contradictory, so you have to twist things a bit for every source to be correct.
In the novel, present at the elven court were 300 moonblades and 300 high mages enchanting them with Ethlando. It never says anything about him linking with other high magi all around the Realms, it says elves came there from all around the realms. In Cormanthyr, it says they were made all over by different realms, with at least 25 for each realm and 100 for Arcorar (including Cormanthyr)... unless I missed something it says nothing about the type of sword. Volo's Guide has Moonblades created in Myth Drannor.... and the timeline for the Starym blade reflects that deviation. It also says Darkmoon is a longsword. Elves of Evermeet gives some general info on moonblades, but does not make failing their test fatal to non evil aspirant elves (and says nothing about what type of blade they are). In The Heroes Lorebook the damage the blade does to a failed wielder is increased but still not absolutely fatal (again no mention of type of sword). Code of the harpers has a similar but slightly different description. The 3rd E Magic Of Faerun source says moonblades are "usually" long swords. I'm almost certain somewhere one of them was described as a broadsword but I could not find that today :)
As far as the dormant blades and souls go... the problem is that a central feature of the novels is Elaith's moonblade, and the ability to restore a dormant blade through quests of atonement/rituals. These things, while not common knowledge, were known to the elves who instructed Elaith and therefore must have been accomplished in the past - probably numerous times over the millennia. As such, I would argue that the only dormant blades where the souls actually move on to Aryvandaar are those that are attuned to a clan that has died out entirely and no longer possess the potential to be restored. The blades in the Blackstaff novel were all possessed by living members of a clan - so apparently what happened to Elaith (the final scion being spared death) has happened many times.
We also have at least 3 instances of magic that bypasses the restrictions of a moonblade: the Starym blade, Arlyn's removing the danger for Danilo (and possibly a similar relationship with Zoar and Amlaruil), and the guy Elaith hired to bypass them for Elaith (and earning a swift death for his efforts). Since these are the blades we know the most about, I'd suggest that there are most likely numerous moonblades that don't fall into the limitations anymore. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 16:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
As far as the dormant blades and souls go... the problem is that a central feature of the novels is Elaith's moonblade, and the ability to restore a dormant blade through quests of atonement/rituals.
In Mrs. Cunningham's novel - and point of view, for I gathered info and discussed with her a bit about moonblades - the reawakening of Elaith's blade was not a ritual, but an unique event after the redeeming of his soul and when he was presented with a descendant.
As for living owners of dormant blades, this is totally normal, for if the elf that tries to reclaim a blade is the last of his - more direct - lineage, the elf doesn't die and the blade goes dormant and the souls are released, and theoretically it is dead forever (and yes, I think the name dormant here is inadequate). Afterwards, this last member of the clan can have descendants, though. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 07 Jan 2016 16:54:19 |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 21:08:01
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| I don't recall Elaith hiring anyone to bypass them on his moonblade. May I ask which novel or short story this is from? |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 21:27:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I don't recall Elaith hiring anyone to bypass them on his moonblade. May I ask which novel or short story this is from?
It's in a short story in Dragon Magazine # 335, "Game of chance". I think it was reprinted later in some anthology, I don't recall if it was in an anthology of Mrs. Cunningham's work or in a collection of elven stories. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 22:53:41
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I postulated a while back that as the moonblades were created for the purpose of discovering (over time) the ruling line of Evermeet, that once that had occurred with the accession of Zaor - the moonblades became basically free-spirited: powerful, semi-sentient items that determined their own destinies, purposes and development. I did this to accomodate the gold elven moonblade wielder featured in Rich Baker's "Realms of the Elves" short story. As I recall, Elaine wasn't a fan of my postulation!   
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2016 : 23:14:34
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I postulated a while back that as the moonblades were created for the purpose of discovering (over time) the ruling line of Evermeet, that once that had occurred with the accession of Zaor - the moonblades became basically free-spirited: powerful, semi-sentient items that determined their own destinies, purposes and development. I did this to accomodate the gold elven moonblade wielder featured in Rich Baker's "Realms of the Elves" short story. As I recall, Elaine wasn't a fan of my postulation!
-- George Krashos
I like the idea, myself! It does make sense, since by the time the ruler was selected, the still-active blades had become quite powerful. (My reasoning is similar for why I liked what Steven did with the dormant blades. I realize moonblades are a class unto themselves, but I'm still not a fan of the idea that a formerly powerful blade would simply turn off and become a pointy paperweight.) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 05:13:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I postulated a while back that as the moonblades were created for the purpose of discovering (over time) the ruling line of Evermeet, that once that had occurred with the accession of Zaor - the moonblades became basically free-spirited: powerful, semi-sentient items that determined their own destinies, purposes and development. I did this to accomodate the gold elven moonblade wielder featured in Rich Baker's "Realms of the Elves" short story. As I recall, Elaine wasn't a fan of my postulation!
-- George Krashos
I like the idea, myself! It does make sense, since by the time the ruler was selected, the still-active blades had become quite powerful. (My reasoning is similar for why I liked what Steven did with the dormant blades. I realize moonblades are a class unto themselves, but I'm still not a fan of the idea that a formerly powerful blade would simply turn off and become a pointy paperweight.)
Would you mind telling me what happened with the dormant blades? I never read the book, and I would love to hear what happened to them. Did they take on a new name? Was there another blade claiming ceremony? Are they in a sourcebook somewhere for stats? Which novel did this take place in?
If you'd rather not hijack the thread with the information, you can send me a PM if you'd prefer. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 05:20:57
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| Short version: in the novel Blackstaff, part of the ritual that cleaned up the High Moor and raised the Hidden City also turned some dormant moonblades into a new type of magic sword. It's been a while since I read the book, so I can't go into too much further detail. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 10:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...) but I'm still not a fan of the idea that a formerly powerful blade would simply turn off and become a pointy paperweight.
Well, according to Mrs. Cunningham, not all moonblades revealed the clan's potential for a ruler; some became, through the centuries, powerful warrior swords, others stored power for wizards, and so on. Why the swords didn't lose their power after the king was determined? I understand that the other blades continued serving the People and their kingdom, each in their own way.
Besides, Mrs. Cunningham also declared that the blades remained active to assure that, if a tragedy befell on the entire king's lineage, another moonblade would determine the next clan to assume the crown of Evermeet. So no, they haven't lost their purpose when Zaor was chosen. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 08 Jan 2016 10:14:22 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 11:22:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
In the novel, ... unless I missed something it says nothing about the type of sword (...) Darkmoon is a longsword. (...) Elves of Evermeet ... says nothing about what type of blade they are (...) In The Heroes Lorebook ... again no mention of type of sword (...) Code of the Harpers has a similar description. The 3rd E Magic Of Faerun source says moonblades are "usually" long swords. I'm almost certain somewhere one of them was described as a broadsword but I could not find that today :)
I always thought that moonblades were exclusively long swords, and the FR Wiki says so (mentioning Elves of Evermeet as the source of this info), but as you mentioned, I revised my sources and haven't found any mentions about it.
I've found sources saying that Arilyn's moonblade is a long sword, and some books say that she is a long sword specialist, but even then, in the novels she swings it "in a distinctive two-handed grip". In 2e at least one could wield a long sword with two hands, but it could also suggest her blade is a bastard sword (which is basically a long sword with a longer grip).
AFAIR, the references say that wielding moonblades with two hands is very unusual, so maybe bastard or two-handed moonblades do exist, but are very rare (but I still think that Tahlshara, being mentioned as the work of Kythaela Durothil's life - and having no mention on Ethlando - and not mentioned directly as the king sword, is not a moonblade).
If so, the 3e reference is the right one, and not all but most moonblades are long swords (and it makes sense, since the long sword is one of the well known elven weapons of choice since 1e).
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 14:31:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I postulated a while back that as the moonblades were created for the purpose of discovering (over time) the ruling line of Evermeet, that once that had occurred with the accession of Zaor - the moonblades became basically free-spirited: powerful, semi-sentient items that determined their own destinies, purposes and development. I did this to accomodate the gold elven moonblade wielder featured in Rich Baker's "Realms of the Elves" short story. As I recall, Elaine wasn't a fan of my postulation!
-- George Krashos
I like the idea, myself! It does make sense, since by the time the ruler was selected, the still-active blades had become quite powerful. (My reasoning is similar for why I liked what Steven did with the dormant blades. I realize moonblades are a class unto themselves, but I'm still not a fan of the idea that a formerly powerful blade would simply turn off and become a pointy paperweight.)
I personally think a handful of the moonblades claimed by the gold elf clans (from the novel) were eventually drawn. The logic behind why they only moon elves were able to draw them originally (that they are more open to understanding other species and other kinds of elves) would not hold true for every gold elf or whatever kind of elf...
Would Eltargrim have lived up to those standards? Understanding and embracing other races / species are his defining characteristics. Would the Srinshee? I'd say of course to both questions - and that there have been many such over the 11000 years... I do think that they are far fewer and further between. While the moon elf clans might pass their blade on generation after generation, perhaps a gold clan - Durothil for example - would hold their moonblade for generations between worthy wielders.
I actually read the chapter describing the ceremony as confirmation of this. When the young Durothil realizes what's happening and asks and states that she is sure there will be someone from her clan who proves worthy... it seems like a way of saying yes you can do it, but most will fail and suffer the price. I think maybe even SHE drew the Durothil blade eventually - a stretch - but a good storyteller could easy write up a story that made it so. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 10 Jan 2016 17:09:16 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 17:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I postulated a while back that as the moonblades were created for the purpose of discovering (over time) the ruling line of Evermeet, that once that had occurred with the accession of Zaor - the moonblades became basically free-spirited: powerful, semi-sentient items that determined their own destinies, purposes and development. I did this to accomodate the gold elven moonblade wielder featured in Rich Baker's "Realms of the Elves" short story. As I recall, Elaine wasn't a fan of my postulation!
-- George Krashos
I like the idea, myself! It does make sense, since by the time the ruler was selected, the still-active blades had become quite powerful. (My reasoning is similar for why I liked what Steven did with the dormant blades. I realize moonblades are a class unto themselves, but I'm still not a fan of the idea that a formerly powerful blade would simply turn off and become a pointy paperweight.)
I like it... kind of :)
I think I might go one step further, however. Perhaps after a few generations the moonblades whose wielders and powers were not the stuff the stuff of rulers but still were worthy wielders were able to know that they were not the "king sword" and that the only part in selecting a ruler they would play was in demonstrating the worthiness of a clan.
In such a case, perhaps the criterion that each blade would use to select a proper wielder might evolve over time.
For example - we know that some moonblades are more like wizard staffs - so perhaps the blade would judge magical aptitude instead of potential leadership ability. Perhaps there is a moonblade or two out there suitable only to faithful of a certain Seldarine deity - drow hunters or some such. In time this would make the claiming of a moonblade very like the attunement rituals of the different elfblades - each looking at character first but also at certain other criterion.
Krash - I did not remember that short story at all - thanks for the reminder - I have to re-read that anthology :) |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2016 : 20:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The logic behind why they only moon elves were able to draw them originally (that they are more open to understanding other species and other kinds of elves) would not hold true for every gold elf or whatever kind of elf...
Would Eltargrim have lived up to those standards? Understanding and embracing other races / species are his defining characteristics. Would the Srinshee? I'd say of course to both questions - and that there have been many such over the 11000 years...
The point is that the swords were supposed to judge lineages, not individuals. So, even if some clans had wonderful elves fit for ruling, maybe their sucessors would not be adequate, they being exceptions to the rule. Well, back then the racial tendency was considered (and most of these NPCs were developed later). And if the tendencies - published in canon - held true, the blades selecting only silver elves made sense.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
When the young Durothil realizes what's happening and asks and states that she is sure there will be someone from her clan who proves worthy... it seems like a way of saying yes you can do it, but most will fail and suffer the price. I think maybe even SHE drew the Durothil blade eventually - a stretch - but a good storyteller could easy write up a story that made it so.
Maybe she could not admit her clan (and race?) was unworthy... Or maybe she knew that eventually there could be moon elves among the Durothil. And as a character of noble origins and with a lot of expectations and a rich gold elven background, she could be wrong in her judgement, too.
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 18 Jan 2016 10:19:34 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2016 : 15:58:53
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I have a hard time buying into the idea that the moonblades were racist and held the conclusion that no elf other than a moon elf was worthy to wield them. That sooo goes against the entire idea of their creation to select a ruler who would think of all elves as
one people. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2016 : 18:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I have a hard time buying into the idea that the moonblades were racist and held the conclusion that no elf other than a moon elf was worthy to wield them. That sooo goes against the entire idea of their creation to select a ruler who would think of all elves as
one people.
Even though moon elves were the only ones to think of elves as one people? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 09:10:31
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Wasn't Aryvandaar(and later the Vyshaantar Empire), on the same moral level as Ilythiir, or at least close it, through most of the conflict? After all, the Crown Wars started because of Aryvandaar's attack on Miyeritar.
Malkizid, if I remember right, started to visibly corrupt the Gold Elves around the begining of the Third Crown War, quite a bit before the Descent of Drow.
[EDIT
In fact, I saw once a theory Lolth used Malkizid to corrupt the Gold Elves, like used Wendonai to help corrupt the dark elves, with the difference Malkizid didn't realize he was manipulated by Lolth, and helped her, as he hates her. |
Edited by - Baltas on 20 Jan 2016 09:48:22 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 10:18:00
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Well, I don't rmember were I read it, but it noticed paralells betwen Wendonai's and Malkizid's actions, including the intermixing of fiendish blood into dark elves(by Wendonai) and gold elves(by Malkizid).
It, and Ialso meant that Malkizid wouldn't know he was manipulated by Lolth.
Although I guesss you may not like it, as it would lessen Malkizid's impact as a villain, and I also had doubts about this theory because of it, as I like Malkizid as the great corrupter of elves. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2016 : 11:44:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I have a hard time buying into the idea that the moonblades were racist and held the conclusion that no elf other than a moon elf was worthy to wield them. That sooo goes against the entire idea of their creation to select a ruler who would think of all elves as
one people.
Even though moon elves were the only ones to think of elves as one people?
That's the point, seeing the races as they were portrayed back then: elves are good, orcs are evil, gold elves usually proud and sometimes haughty, wood/wild isolationists, and so on (as a tendency, which would be more reflected over time, and so over lineages).
EDIT: Remembering that this variety in character and versatility was a human trait, back then. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 20 Jan 2016 11:45:46 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2016 : 16:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, I don't rmember were I read it, but it noticed paralells betwen Wendonai's and Malkizid's actions, including the intermixing of fiendish blood into dark elves(by Wendonai) and gold elves(by Malkizid).
It, and Ialso meant that Malkizid wouldn't know he was manipulated by Lolth.
Although I guesss you may not like it, as it would lessen Malkizid's impact as a villain, and I also had doubts about this theory because of it, as I like Malkizid as the great corrupter of elves.
Somewhere or other, it says that Malkizid blames Lloth for his fall and so hates her. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2016 : 16:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I have a hard time buying into the idea that the moonblades were racist and held the conclusion that no elf other than a moon elf was worthy to wield them. That sooo goes against the entire idea of their creation to select a ruler who would think of all elves as
one people.
Even though moon elves were the only ones to think of elves as one people?
The notables I mentioned earlier were to point out that they were not the only ones... it is just much more rare for the other sub-races.
In pretty much every one of Elaine's novels there is an example of an elf who was not a moon elf who has chosen to see past their usual pride and see all elves as Quessir instead of by their sub races. These are usually surrounded by many others that don't fit that description (and are usually gold elves).
What I'm suggesting is that for these less common elves - oftentimes elves who have chosen lives of service or defense - it should be possible to be deserving of a moonblade. I'm also saying that if it is not than the selection process of moonblades is more racists even than Kymil, who I think is the biggest example of a gold elf hating "gray" elves completely. |
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Moon blades
