| Author |
 Topic  |
|
BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 04:15:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
A long with what Wooly said, I think (and this is just my take on it), that the elves wanted to reclaim their hold on Faerun, if not to what they had in the days of their ancient empires, then at least so they weren't in full retreat. Evermeet was supposed to be their "safe place", but, as Wooly pointed, it wasn't safe from everything. If they were able to reclaim the City of Song, then they would be better able to establish a foothold.
Of course, the elves have other cities too, like Everesk (where many of the survivors of Myth Drannor are now staying as refugees).
I also agree with Wooly's post.
As far as the original motivation for the Return (from what i remember from The Last Mythal trilogy):
The motivation for sending an army to Faerun was to eliminate the Feyri threat, and to forestall (or at least gain advance warning of)future threats, and hopefully deal with them in Faerun before they became a direct threat to Evermeet. In other words, 'deal with threats over there, so we don't have to deal with them here'.
IIRC, originally it wasn't planned to reclaim former elven realms (like Myth Drannor); that only happened because the Feyri settled there first. The Elven Crusade had to go there to beat the Feyri, and it was only after that was achieved that they decided to make the most of the opportunity to reclaim Cormanthor.
One thing I like about the Return is that it makes the elves a bit more interesting, in that there is a wide range of viewpoints & aims, often conflicting, between the different groups. For example:
1) Active xenophobes/racists:
The fanatical terrorists of the Eldreth Veldura, and their sun elf sponsors.
2) Isolationist xenophobes:
Includes most inhabitants of Evermeet & Evereska, also forest-dwelling moon & wood elves. They don't like humans much but won't attack unless provoked; they just want to be left alone. Also includes the Llewyrr elves in the Moonshae Isles.
3) Pragmatic Nationalists/Idealists:
For example, The Elven Crusade; they want a strong, active elven presence in Faerun, but are willing to work with neighbouring humans & other races.
4) Cosmopolitans:
The many elves living amongst other races in places like Silverymoon, Baldur's Gate, Waterdeep etc. They presumably cringe when they hear about group 1), think group 2) are either stuck in the past, or a bunch of rustic yokels, and roll their eyes when confronted by group 3). Example: Fox-at-Twilight.
One point I liked in the SCAG is that there is mention of some of this conflict in outlook, between the isolationists of Evereska, and the more pragmatic refugees from Myth Drannor. |
Edited by - BenN on 08 Dec 2015 04:16:22 |
 |
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 04:19:20
|
Thanks for that  it's been several years since I read the Last Mythal books, so I couldn't remember all the details. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 04:32:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I agree with you that five years from monster-haunted ruin to thriving city seems implausible.
...unless the fey'ri did all the hard work, and then the elves chased them off? 
And then crunchy-splat, elf paste with Shade topping.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 08:54:14
|
As others have said, it was already planted in re-claimed Myth Drannor. It has always been my contention that this was poorly thought out.
I didn't really see anything wrong with how anything else was handled, but planting the tree had serious implications. First, you are officially ending the Retreat. This has huge implications for the Elves as a people which was never really addressed. Second, you are literally creating a two-way portal between Evermeet and where you plant the tree. This is to get literally thousands of Elves from Evermeet to the new homeland. Third, you've given the Elves access to super powered High Magic without any of the serious drawbacks. Forth, the political and social implications of planting the tree where they did. You have Cormyr and Sembia to the south, the Dalelands surrounding you, and the Moonsea to the north. I am sure ALL of them are thrilled to have a bunch of uppity Elves showing up by the tens of thousands, setting up shop in the nearby forest, and basically acting like they own the place. After all, planting the tree is all about re-establishing the Elven people on the mainland. The Elves don't have a good historical record of playing nice with other races who don't really show them the proper amount of deference and respect. Not to mention that there is already fairly strong pre-existing Elven sentiment in the region (largely stemming from Sembia, but also some in the Dalelands as well). Add to that the Eldreth Veluuthra from the Elven side...
Well. You get my point. There are serious geo-political implications that were never addressed. Then it is decided that they are going to drop shade on top of Myth Drannor. Okay, fine. There are implications to that as well.
The tree isn't destroyed. Okay. We know that. So this means the portal is still active between Myth Drannor and Evermeet. You can't dig the tree up and move it. It's pretty clearly stated that once the tree is planted, that's it. You don't get seeds and plant new trees elsewhere, either. This was your one shot. This was why there was a big fight over where it would be planted, and whether it was time for it to be planted. Planting the tree is serious because it is a one shot affair.
So, the tree isn't destroyed. This basically means that the Elves are either going to have to abandon the tree (this would be sacrilegious), or they're going to have to reclaim Myth Drannor again. In other words, they can't just Retreat once again. They are forced to reclaim Myth Drannor or abandon the tree--they can't abandon the tree, because... well... to use a modern day example, it would be like Muslims abandoning the Kaaba, located in the Great Mosque of Mecca, Masjid al-Haram. This is what Muslims are facing when they pray. Elves abandoning the tree of souls would be like watching Muslims abandon the Kaaba. Having the tree of souls controlled or taken over by non-Elves, particularly overt enemies of the Elves, would be like non-Muslims seizing control of Mecca. Understand, planting the tree of souls, more-or-less turns Myth Drannor into the Elven version of Mecca.
Pretty much every elf in the Realms, the moment that tree is planted, is expected to make pilgrimage there to help re-establish Elven power in Faerun. It means the Retreat has ended, and the Elves are supposed to be on the ascent again.
This has clearly proven false. The Elves have, at best, muddled through the last century. Now, their little holy city has been leveled to the ground. The Return is in shambles. The Tree of Souls is no longer under their direct control.
What does this mean for the Elves culturally? What does this mean for the Elves psychologically?
If this were my Realms, and Myth Drannor were lost in this fashion, it would be utter chaos. It would be like watching the Elves collectively lose their ever-loving-minds. You would see Elven responses running a huge spectrum. You would watch them believing that their Gods had turned their backs on them. You would watch some of them, in grief and disbelief, just up and commit public suicide. You would watch some of them blame humans, or whatever nearest group that felt relevant, and just attack them (basically committing suicide). More level headed Elves would start gathering as many loyalist forces as possible, and basically marching right back to Myth Drannor with a we-take-it-back-or-we-all-die-trying attitude. Basically, the only Elves that would not be completely flipping out on some level, would be the more cosmopolitan Elves, who have already largely accommodated well into human dominated lands--like the Elves of Waterdeep or Silverymoon.
Everyone else? Completely nuts. No one is going to leave the Tree of Souls abandoned in a ruin. On the other hand, had the Tree of Souls been destroyed, it would have had a similar impact as Muslims watching Mecca get nuked.
Basically, planting the tree had serious consequences. Those consequences were never addressed upfront, and the planting of the tree has always been treated as some minor thing--an afterthought.
Really, the only thing that is going to fix this situation is divine intervention. Corellon Larethian is going to have to somehow kill that tree, but give new seeds to the Elves so that they can scurry back off to Evermeet. Then we have to pretend that basically nothing really happened, as we're putting things back the way they were in 1E / 2E. Of course, that's a huge cop out.
So, we have three choices. We can continue to ignore the significance of planting the tree (the most likely option, based on past actions). We can treat the tree as lore intended it to be treated, and have the Elves act in a realistic fashion. Or we can basically have Corellon intervene and hit the reset button. |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 09:20:53
|
I just want to quote this from Evermeet: Island of the Elves by Elaine Cunningham. This will help add emphasis to what I was saying in my previous post.
quote:
Starleaf nodded. "I will plant the Tree of Souls on Evermeet with my own hands," she vowed.
"Not so," Corellon cautioned her. "Guard it and protect it, yes. But the Tree of Souls has another purpose. A time may come when elves wish to return to the mainland, or perhaps, they may have no choice but to return. Within this tree lies the power of High Magic, a power that even now is fading from the land. In time, only on Evermeet will such magic be cast. The souls within this tree, and those of the elves yet unborn who will yet choose to enter it rather than return to Arvandor, will grant the People a second chance upon Faerun. Once this tree is planted it will never be moved again. The power within will enable the elves to cast High Magic within the shadow of the tree, which will grow in size and power with each year that passes.
"Remember what I have told you, and pass on my words to he who takes the guardianship of the tree from your hands," Corellon told her sternly. "The Tree of Souls must not be taken lightly, or planted on a whim."
"I will remember," the elf promised. And as she did, she silently prayed that the need to plant the Tree of Souls would never come at all. Her heart and soul sang with the vision that was Evermeet, and the sure knowledge that nothing this side of Arvandor could take its place in the hearts of the People.
This is literally a holy artifact given to the Elves by their deity. They were instructed not to plant it on a whim. It contains the souls/spirits of numerous Elves, and who knows how many thousands more over the last century.
There is no way that they can abandon the tree. It is too important to their people, not only in a religious sense, but also for what it is supposed to symbolize. To abandon the tree in essence means that the time of the Elves has ended, that there is no hope for the future of their people, and that they are effectively a race doomed to slowly fade into the shadow of other beings--primarily humans. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 16:29:10
|
It sounds like that whoever thought to crash Shade on Myth Drannor hadn't considered the Tree. I seem to remember Ed saying the Tree is intact, so maybe he has plans for it.
I don't think the elves would go insane, but I do think they would take some action to save the Tree, because as you said, it is a holy artifact and a symbol. It contains elven souls who chose to stay rather than go to Arvsndor. They can't just leave it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 20:58:43
|
| The current Realms saddens me very much. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 22:26:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It sounds like that whoever thought to crash Shade on Myth Drannor hadn't considered the Tree. I seem to remember Ed saying the Tree is intact, so maybe he has plans for it.
I don't think the elves would go insane, but I do think they would take some action to save the Tree, because as you said, it is a holy artifact and a symbol. It contains elven souls who chose to stay rather than go to Arvsndor. They can't just leave it.
Here is what THO said about the Tree of Souls in response to my last extensive rant about the consequences of what happened to Myth Drannor, and how it was left out of the Herald.
quote:
Hi again, all.
Faraer, I'm not sure how much Ed has seen of the forthcoming rules and/or artwork, but off your questions go to him, and we'll see what he has to say.
BenN, Ed did send me replies to your questions, so . . .
SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING!
QUESTIONS AND ED'S ANSWERS:
1) Now that Shade has landed on top of Myth Drannor & destroyed it, what has become of the Tree of Souls?
Ed: Ah, yes. Over the years, I have been slowly trained to resist including every last game-relevant lore detail in my novels, in the interests of shaping a better narrative storyline. Guess I erred too far in pruning, this time around. Sorry; this should have made it into my final draft, but didn’t (in the interests of keeping the pacing and the “fog of war” feel up). My bad.
When the POSSIBLE danger of Thultanthar crashing became apparent (i.e. when the city started flying towards Myth Drannor, not when what El did became obvious) the Srinshee contacted all the Myth Drannan baelnorn she could and commanded them to get to the Tree of Souls and magically shield and defend it, warping the Weave to form a protective barrier around it (so when Thultanthar came crashing down, it would punch through the city like a spike, and protect the Tree). This was done, and the Tree has survived. There has been some consternation among certain readers about Myth Drannor being entirely in ruins, but not so. Like any city that’s been fought through, a big cleanup is in order, but Thultanthar is a pretty small city, and Myth Drannor, being “at one with the forest” [growing trees as dwellings, trees and moss and open forest terrain everywhere, not human-habit “pave over everything” architecture, is a very large (in footprint) city. So a relatively small area of Myth Drannor was pancaked under the shattered remnants of Shade.
2) Assuming that the 4e Campaign Guide info about Myth Drannor's population (10K) is correct, how many survived along with Ilsevele and Fflar?
Ed: The 4e population figures are ROUGHLY correct, but the siege took some time to develop (mercenary armies being mustered in Sembia and then marched north), so the elves had warning, so many of their skilled artisans, pregnant shes, young children and families with young children, ailing elderly, wounded, and so on, GOT OUT (to Semberholme first and foremost, and to Evereska and elsewhere, too). Anyone who wanted to relocate rather than fight was given that option, without shame or recrimination.
In other words, the city was down to 6,400 or so “determined and able defenders” before the siege started, and they took heavy losses in the fighting by being worn down under the weight of sheer numbers; although they were inflicting very heavy losses on the attacking mercenaries, they were slowly beaten back - - and the very “open” nature of the city made it very hard to defend. The Coronal sent some vital individuals out of the fighting by making them envoys that she sent to elven communities all over the Realms to try to get volunteer reinforcements (few of which arrived on time). So in that way she saved another hundred or so.
However, the defenders died rather than surrender or flee, so the elves still in the city were reduced to around 1000 when it became apparent that the city couldn’t be held, and the children, wounded, and elders still in the city were rushed out through the gates (as seen near the end of THE HERALD). The Coronal and Fflar were literally fighting back to back at the end, with a handful of defenders still standing, when Thultanthar came down - - and almost all of that last handful made it out to Semberholme.
So at the end of THE HERALD, a few blocks of central Myth Drannor are rubble, under the shattered remnants of Thultanthar. Scavengers (monsters) are roaming the corpse-littered vicinity, and there’s minor damage to the outlying city, which is abandoned - - probably not for long. The surviving mercenaries are foraging/pillaging/behaving like brigands, and Sembia is in such disarray that there’s no chance of Sembia (or for that matter, any other realm) “reaching in” to annex or occupy the ruins. Perhaps 5,000 elves perished defending Myth Drannor - - and yes, the Tree of Souls survives. All indications are that the Srinshee did not; she sacrificed herself to save her people and smash Larloch (did HE survive? Unknown, but my bet would be that he did). Did Dove? Doubtful; she was “out of” silver fire, and wanted to die (to be with her beloved Florin), but may end up surviving as “a voice in the Weave” (the same fate as some of the Tanthul princes, and possibly The Simbul).
Many things were left “up in the air” for later stories, or for DMs to decide for themselves, for their campaign. Certain matters will be revealed in my NEXT Realms novel.
Hope this helps. Sorry for causing upset to some Realms readers!
Ed
So saith Ed. And there you have it. Please convey this to Aldrick.
love,
THO
Okay. So that's the status of the current situation. However, it is important to look at things from an Elven perspective. I don't mean from a PC Elf perspective, but from the perspective of the average Joe elf.
You know that your people once had a glorious past, where they controlled large kingdoms across Faerun. Sadly, over time that glory faded, and other races began to dominate and push your people back. As a result, your people began what is known as the Retreat, to a land known as Evermeet. However, there was a promise given to your people by your deity. He promised that someday your people would return, and he gave your people a special tree that held the souls of brave Elves that will symbolize the glorious return of your people. The myth of the tree symbolizes the hope for your peoples future.
Amazingly, in your lifetime you saw the tree planted! The Retreat had ended! The Return was upon your people! Your people were on the cusp of returning to their glory days, and you were lucky enough to be alive to see it and help them prosper and thrive.
However, in just a few short years after planting the tree, the Spellplague happened. All contact with Evermeet was lost. Most believe it destroyed. Although you don't possess this knowledge, the truth of the matter is that Evermeet finds itself in the Feywild--and all the implications that implies. The Queen is presumed dead, or at least missing, and the Throne stands empty. Evermeet in the Feywild is now governed by a Council. You, however, have none of this information. All that you know is that Evermeet is gone, and presumably virtually every elf there is dead.
So, you have on the one hand the lingering promise of the Return. However, an integral part of the Return was your people coming over from Evermeet to establish the new Elven Kingdom. They did not come over in sufficient numbers, and they are presumably all dead. Imagine the grief that you must feel at this knowledge. Your people, so close to returning to their glorious past, have just endured the worst mass death imaginable. The bulk of your people on Toril have just vanished.
However, you still have Myth Drannor and the Tree. You have this symbol. This one real last bastion of hope. The Return does not materialize as promised, due to what happened to Evermeet. So, your people just become another petty kingdom in the region. The hopes that were dangled before you don't materialize, but let's assume you are the optimistic sort. You believe that your Gods have not totally abandoned you, and that your people are just enduring some type of divine trial. Corellon is testing his people.
Unfortunately, the Shades then attack Myth Drannor. This last real shred of idealistic hope that you possess. The city falls. Parts of it is in ruin. The Tree of Souls, that holy artifact given to your people by your deity survives. However, it is being defiled by enemies of your people who now inhabit an abandoned Myth Drannor.
What little bit of hope you had for your people now lay in ruins alongside the Shade Enclave. The promise of the Return, if there was any lingering hope left, has been dashed completely by this event. Furthermore, the most holy artifact of your people is being defiled by their enemies.
This is the status of the Elves in the Realms from the perspective of the average Joe. Imagine the feeling of that Elf. From his or her perspective, you are watching the permanent decline and extinction of your people. You were once promised a glorious Return or Rebirth. Instead, you have a front row seat to your people's funeral. All of the history of your people, all of their lore, all of their culture, and everything that you were raised to value and love is in danger of being lost. Perhaps in your lifetime, if not in the lifetime of your children. Maybe there will be some small pockets who keep something alive, but overall it is going to be lost. You know this. This is the burden that you carry.
With this all in mind, as an Elf, how do you respond to this state of affairs? I think you respond to it with intense grief, sorrow, and unimaginable horror. In short, you aren't going to be thinking rationally.
For further clarity about the tree itself, here is what the 2E Sourcebook Elves of Evermeet has to say on the matter.
quote:
Tree of Souls
The most powerful and valuable of all elven magical artifacts resides in magical stasis in the palace of Queen Amlaruil. It is possibly the most powerful artifact on all of Abeir-Toril. The tree of souls holds the essences of many ancient elves who chose to stay on Toril, rather than join Corellon Larethian in Arvandor, allowing their souls to be used to rebuild the elven nation. It is being held in safety, looking forward to the day (possibly thousands of years distant) when the elves finally return to Faerun.
If planted, the tree will instantly sprout to a gigantic (500-foot-tall), white-barked, oak-like tree with gleaming green and gold leaves. The tree itself will then act as a permanent gate to and from the island of Evermeet. It will allow the free casting of high magic without penalty within 100 miles. This radius will increase at the rate of one mile per year after the tree has been planted.
Once the tree of souls has been planted, however, it can never be moved again. For this reason, in anticipation of an eventual return to the mainland, Amlaruil and the leaders of the elves (those few who know of the tree's existence) do not wish to plant it on Evermeet.
====
So, let's talk about the future and current state of Myth Drannor. Roughly speaking Myth Drannor had a population of 10,000. Roughly speaking, 5,400 of them died--pretty much everyone who could fight. That means their population was cut in more than half, reducing the survivors to around 4,600 that are scattered throughout Faerun. This is according to 4E and Ed's numbers.
This means half of the population is dead. Really, the only thing even remotely equivalent in terms of human losses in the real world would be something like the Black Death. Just imagine what it would be like waking up to hear that the United States had been invaded, and half of the population of New York City had died in the fighting. Literally, roughly 4.5 Million people dead. Not only that, but the survivors had to completely abandon the city.
Just try and picture that in your minds eye. Then, add to that fact that for the Elves, because the Tree of Souls was there, this is a holy and sacred city.
Now, imagine learning that although the bulk of the city survives, those who played a role in destroying it are there. They are looting and pillaging everything that isn't nailed down, and likely some things that are. Then, once again, remember that the Tree of Souls is a holy artifact to your people, which means that they are likely defiling that as well.
Just take all of this in, and try to put yourself in the shoes of the average Elf. Can you imagine what you must be feeling and experiencing as you hear this news? |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 02:17:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My preference would have been that only a small, outlying section of the city was cleansed and made habitable. That could serve as a base for the PCs, as they range further and further afield from there as part of the whole reclamation process. The PCs would be like the forward guys, and then someone would come in behind them to actually make the area habitable, after the PCs had killed the lurking nastybads.
Spun that say, the actual restoration of the city could have taken decades. It would have given the elves their Return, but kept the area viable for adventuring.
This would also make sense in that elven architecture restoration wouldn't necessarily be fast. After all they have centuries to do it in. They might make sure that where they inhabit is heavily secured before moving on, unlike humans who would "get antsy". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 02:24:52
|
@Aldrick: what you're saying makes sense, and the only thing I would refute is that, from my understanding, Evermeet is reachable again. According to the SCAG, it now straddles all three worlds (Arvandor, the Feywild, and Faerun). Evermeet ships are again docking along the Sword Coast. So that would provide some hope to Joe who has seen Myth Drannor rise and fall in his lifetime.
This is not to say that Joe wouldn't be shaken. Losing your city and not knowing what was going to happen t your people would be hard on anyone. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 02:36:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It sounds like that whoever thought to crash Shade on Myth Drannor hadn't considered the Tree. I seem to remember Ed saying the Tree is intact, so maybe he has plans for it.
I don't think the elves would go insane, but I do think they would take some action to save the Tree, because as you said, it is a holy artifact and a symbol. It contains elven souls who chose to stay rather than go to Arvsndor. They can't just leave it.
Here is what THO said about the Tree of Souls in response to my last extensive rant about the consequences of what happened to Myth Drannor, and how it was left out of the Herald.
quote:
Hi again, all.
Faraer, I'm not sure how much Ed has seen of the forthcoming rules and/or artwork, but off your questions go to him, and we'll see what he has to say.
BenN, Ed did send me replies to your questions, so . . .
SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING!
SPOILER WARNING!
QUESTIONS AND ED'S ANSWERS:
1) Now that Shade has landed on top of Myth Drannor & destroyed it, what has become of the Tree of Souls?
Ed: Ah, yes. Over the years, I have been slowly trained to resist including every last game-relevant lore detail in my novels, in the interests of shaping a better narrative storyline. Guess I erred too far in pruning, this time around. Sorry; this should have made it into my final draft, but didn’t (in the interests of keeping the pacing and the “fog of war” feel up). My bad.
When the POSSIBLE danger of Thultanthar crashing became apparent (i.e. when the city started flying towards Myth Drannor, not when what El did became obvious) the Srinshee contacted all the Myth Drannan baelnorn she could and commanded them to get to the Tree of Souls and magically shield and defend it, warping the Weave to form a protective barrier around it (so when Thultanthar came crashing down, it would punch through the city like a spike, and protect the Tree). This was done, and the Tree has survived. There has been some consternation among certain readers about Myth Drannor being entirely in ruins, but not so. Like any city that’s been fought through, a big cleanup is in order, but Thultanthar is a pretty small city, and Myth Drannor, being “at one with the forest” [growing trees as dwellings, trees and moss and open forest terrain everywhere, not human-habit “pave over everything” architecture, is a very large (in footprint) city. So a relatively small area of Myth Drannor was pancaked under the shattered remnants of Shade.
2) Assuming that the 4e Campaign Guide info about Myth Drannor's population (10K) is correct, how many survived along with Ilsevele and Fflar?
Ed: The 4e population figures are ROUGHLY correct, but the siege took some time to develop (mercenary armies being mustered in Sembia and then marched north), so the elves had warning, so many of their skilled artisans, pregnant shes, young children and families with young children, ailing elderly, wounded, and so on, GOT OUT (to Semberholme first and foremost, and to Evereska and elsewhere, too). Anyone who wanted to relocate rather than fight was given that option, without shame or recrimination.
In other words, the city was down to 6,400 or so “determined and able defenders” before the siege started, and they took heavy losses in the fighting by being worn down under the weight of sheer numbers; although they were inflicting very heavy losses on the attacking mercenaries, they were slowly beaten back - - and the very “open” nature of the city made it very hard to defend. The Coronal sent some vital individuals out of the fighting by making them envoys that she sent to elven communities all over the Realms to try to get volunteer reinforcements (few of which arrived on time). So in that way she saved another hundred or so.
However, the defenders died rather than surrender or flee, so the elves still in the city were reduced to around 1000 when it became apparent that the city couldn’t be held, and the children, wounded, and elders still in the city were rushed out through the gates (as seen near the end of THE HERALD). The Coronal and Fflar were literally fighting back to back at the end, with a handful of defenders still standing, when Thultanthar came down - - and almost all of that last handful made it out to Semberholme.
So at the end of THE HERALD, a few blocks of central Myth Drannor are rubble, under the shattered remnants of Thultanthar. Scavengers (monsters) are roaming the corpse-littered vicinity, and there’s minor damage to the outlying city, which is abandoned - - probably not for long. The surviving mercenaries are foraging/pillaging/behaving like brigands, and Sembia is in such disarray that there’s no chance of Sembia (or for that matter, any other realm) “reaching in” to annex or occupy the ruins. Perhaps 5,000 elves perished defending Myth Drannor - - and yes, the Tree of Souls survives. All indications are that the Srinshee did not; she sacrificed herself to save her people and smash Larloch (did HE survive? Unknown, but my bet would be that he did). Did Dove? Doubtful; she was “out of” silver fire, and wanted to die (to be with her beloved Florin), but may end up surviving as “a voice in the Weave” (the same fate as some of the Tanthul princes, and possibly The Simbul).
Many things were left “up in the air” for later stories, or for DMs to decide for themselves, for their campaign. Certain matters will be revealed in my NEXT Realms novel.
Hope this helps. Sorry for causing upset to some Realms readers!
Ed
So saith Ed. And there you have it. Please convey this to Aldrick.
love,
THO
Okay. So that's the status of the current situation. However, it is important to look at things from an Elven perspective. I don't mean from a PC Elf perspective, but from the perspective of the average Joe elf.
You know that your people once had a glorious past, where they controlled large kingdoms across Faerun. Sadly, over time that glory faded, and other races began to dominate and push your people back. As a result, your people began what is known as the Retreat, to a land known as Evermeet. However, there was a promise given to your people by your deity. He promised that someday your people would return, and he gave your people a special tree that held the souls of brave Elves that will symbolize the glorious return of your people. The myth of the tree symbolizes the hope for your peoples future.
Amazingly, in your lifetime you saw the tree planted! The Retreat had ended! The Return was upon your people! Your people were on the cusp of returning to their glory days, and you were lucky enough to be alive to see it and help them prosper and thrive.
However, in just a few short years after planting the tree, the Spellplague happened. All contact with Evermeet was lost. Most believe it destroyed. Although you don't possess this knowledge, the truth of the matter is that Evermeet finds itself in the Feywild--and all the implications that implies. The Queen is presumed dead, or at least missing, and the Throne stands empty. Evermeet in the Feywild is now governed by a Council. You, however, have none of this information. All that you know is that Evermeet is gone, and presumably virtually every elf there is dead.
So, you have on the one hand the lingering promise of the Return. However, an integral part of the Return was your people coming over from Evermeet to establish the new Elven Kingdom. They did not come over in sufficient numbers, and they are presumably all dead. Imagine the grief that you must feel at this knowledge. Your people, so close to returning to their glorious past, have just endured the worst mass death imaginable. The bulk of your people on Toril have just vanished.
However, you still have Myth Drannor and the Tree. You have this symbol. This one real last bastion of hope. The Return does not materialize as promised, due to what happened to Evermeet. So, your people just become another petty kingdom in the region. The hopes that were dangled before you don't materialize, but let's assume you are the optimistic sort. You believe that your Gods have not totally abandoned you, and that your people are just enduring some type of divine trial. Corellon is testing his people.
Unfortunately, the Shades then attack Myth Drannor. This last real shred of idealistic hope that you possess. The city falls. Parts of it is in ruin. The Tree of Souls, that holy artifact given to your people by your deity survives. However, it is being defiled by enemies of your people who now inhabit an abandoned Myth Drannor.
What little bit of hope you had for your people now lay in ruins alongside the Shade Enclave. The promise of the Return, if there was any lingering hope left, has been dashed completely by this event. Furthermore, the most holy artifact of your people is being defiled by their enemies.
This is the status of the Elves in the Realms from the perspective of the average Joe. Imagine the feeling of that Elf. From his or her perspective, you are watching the permanent decline and extinction of your people. You were once promised a glorious Return or Rebirth. Instead, you have a front row seat to your people's funeral. All of the history of your people, all of their lore, all of their culture, and everything that you were raised to value and love is in danger of being lost. Perhaps in your lifetime, if not in the lifetime of your children. Maybe there will be some small pockets who keep something alive, but overall it is going to be lost. You know this. This is the burden that you carry.
With this all in mind, as an Elf, how do you respond to this state of affairs? I think you respond to it with intense grief, sorrow, and unimaginable horror. In short, you aren't going to be thinking rationally.
For further clarity about the tree itself, here is what the 2E Sourcebook Elves of Evermeet has to say on the matter.
quote:
Tree of Souls
The most powerful and valuable of all elven magical artifacts resides in magical stasis in the palace of Queen Amlaruil. It is possibly the most powerful artifact on all of Abeir-Toril. The tree of souls holds the essences of many ancient elves who chose to stay on Toril, rather than join Corellon Larethian in Arvandor, allowing their souls to be used to rebuild the elven nation. It is being held in safety, looking forward to the day (possibly thousands of years distant) when the elves finally return to Faerun.
If planted, the tree will instantly sprout to a gigantic (500-foot-tall), white-barked, oak-like tree with gleaming green and gold leaves. The tree itself will then act as a permanent gate to and from the island of Evermeet. It will allow the free casting of high magic without penalty within 100 miles. This radius will increase at the rate of one mile per year after the tree has been planted.
Once the tree of souls has been planted, however, it can never be moved again. For this reason, in anticipation of an eventual return to the mainland, Amlaruil and the leaders of the elves (those few who know of the tree's existence) do not wish to plant it on Evermeet.
====
So, let's talk about the future and current state of Myth Drannor. Roughly speaking Myth Drannor had a population of 10,000. Roughly speaking, 5,400 of them died--pretty much everyone who could fight. That means their population was cut in more than half, reducing the survivors to around 4,600 that are scattered throughout Faerun. This is according to 4E and Ed's numbers.
This means half of the population is dead. Really, the only thing even remotely equivalent in terms of human losses in the real world would be something like the Black Death. Just imagine what it would be like waking up to hear that the United States had been invaded, and half of the population of New York City had died in the fighting. Literally, roughly 4.5 Million people dead. Not only that, but the survivors had to completely abandon the city.
Just try and picture that in your minds eye. Then, add to that fact that for the Elves, because the Tree of Souls was there, this is a holy and sacred city.
Now, imagine learning that although the bulk of the city survives, those who played a role in destroying it are there. They are looting and pillaging everything that isn't nailed down, and likely some things that are. Then, once again, remember that the Tree of Souls is a holy artifact to your people, which means that they are likely defiling that as well.
Just take all of this in, and try to put yourself in the shoes of the average Elf. Can you imagine what you must be feeling and experiencing as you hear this news?
Wow, that just puts a definite spin on things. You know what.... I wonder if the surface elves would put a call out to their spelljamming brethren in the Elven Imperial Fleet? I could definitely see the fleet being interested in securing a 100 mile area wherein high magic can be cast at no cost that expands every year.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 03:48:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Wow, that just puts a definite spin on things. You know what.... I wonder if the surface elves would put a call out to their spelljamming brethren in the Elven Imperial Fleet? I could definitely see the fleet being interested in securing a 100 mile area wherein high magic can be cast at no cost that expands every year.
High Magic seems to be just a thing for elves of the Realms -- I've not seen references to it outside of Realmspace (I'm actually not recalling any references beyond Toril). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 04:00:32
|
Some very good points & food for thought in the posts above; thanks!
In terms of "What happens from now?", and future story/adventure hooks, you could have Ilsevele & Fflar trying to build & lead a Crusade Mk.II, to reoccupy Myth Drannor & protect the tree asap.
But they will probably need help, as there are several obstacles:
1) The area around the Tree of Souls is a shattered wasteland of stones, decomposing bodies, marauding monsters & mercenaries etc. Clearing it will be a monumental task.
2) Most of the defenders of Myth Drannor died, so they'll need to find replacements. From where? On the one hand, the Tree is a holy symbol for elves, so presumably many in Faerun would be motivated to help. Would any come from Evermeet? If the Tree is intact, then presumably the gate is still operational, now that Evermeet is back on Toril (sorta....). On the other hand, some of the more cosmopolitan elves (living with humans in the main cities) and the more insular (in Evereska or the forests) may not be motivated to help.
3) The attitude of non-elven neighbours (Sembia, Cormyr, the Dales etc) to any elven reclamation attempt will be ambiguous at best. No doubt they will want to get rid of the monsters & mercenaries, but they probably have mixed feelings about the elves attempting a come-back on their doorstep.
4) Now that Myth Drannor is no more, do Ilsevele and Fflar have any remaining leadership influence among the survivors? I'd imagine that Fflar must be almost insane, having witnessed the fall of the city twice, and the reason for his resurrection counting for nothing..... |
Edited by - BenN on 09 Dec 2015 04:03:11 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 04:04:40
|
| Ilsevele and Fflar are both the type of leaders who wouldn't abandon everything just because their city fell. They have a responsibility to the survivors, and Fflar isn't just going to sit down and give up. Naturally they are saddened by their loss, but they will do their duty and lead their people, whether that is as refugees in Evereska or to reclaim Myth Drannor. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 04:17:22
|
Just wait till Moander possesses the tree and starts pumping out abominations fueled by decomposing elf spirits.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 09 Dec 2015 04:18:06 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 05:30:39
|
I would expect Sembia to be neutral about the rebuilding (again) of Myth Drannor.
On the one hand, Sembia and the elves of Cormanthyr have long had issues with each other.
On the other hand, the fecal matter just impacted the bladed ventilation device in Sembia, and having neighbors who are rebuilding means there is going to be money changing hands... And when money changes hands, Sembians want their hands to be the ones receiving that money.
They're not going to be planning double dates any time soon, but there's going to be a fair amount of "as long as they don't bother us..." on both sides. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 19:00:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
@Aldrick: what you're saying makes sense, and the only thing I would refute is that, from my understanding, Evermeet is reachable again. According to the SCAG, it now straddles all three worlds (Arvandor, the Feywild, and Faerun). Evermeet ships are again docking along the Sword Coast. So that would provide some hope to Joe who has seen Myth Drannor rise and fall in his lifetime.
This is not to say that Joe wouldn't be shaken. Losing your city and not knowing what was going to happen t your people would be hard on anyone.
Why do you think this makes the situation better? It's true, that it might provide some hope to the Elves now that Evermeet has returned. However, it only puts them in an even worse position--a similar position that they found themselves in when the Return started. However, the politics of the situation are going to be much worse.
It is important to keep in mind that the Tree of Souls has a portal wide open on Evermeet. This means that tens of thousands of Elves have the ability to come over immediately and help reclaim Myth Drannor.
On the surface, from an Elven perspective, this may seem good. However, look at the geopolitical implications.
I personally believe that, because the Tree is planted, and that Evermeet is back (kind of), that there is an imperative to do whatever is necessary to continue the Return and re-claim Myth Drannor. There is absolutely no way that the Elves are leaving Myth Drannor abandoned with the tree planted there. Zero. They will fight to reclaim that city, even if it was a suicidal task. (Much like how the final defenders chose to die rather than abandon the city, even though they knew they couldn't win.)
Understand that right now, every elf that died to defend Myth Drannor is a martyr. Elves are writing songs about them right now, sad, yet heroic laments. The type of songs that you sing children to inspire them to give everything to the cause.
I think the cosmopolitan Elves are the only faction of Elves who are the least interested in reclaiming the city. However, I also imagine a large portion of them would support the cause, at least in theory. It is hard to imagine any group of Elves who are pro-Myth Drannor abandonment, even if they aren't enthusiastic about the idea of Myth Drannor on a personal level, it becomes hard for an elf to justify leaving the Tree of Souls vulnerable. The tree literally does change everything about the situation.
So, where do the other elf factions stand? You have the right wing racists, which are mostly Eldreth Veluuthra and their sympathizers. Then you have the isolationists, which likely make up the bulk of the Elves, particularly those who would come from Evermeet. Then you have the nationalists, the bulk of which would be Myth Drannor survivors.
What is likely going to happen to the Elves politically? Well, we know what happens in the real world when bad things like this happen. People have a tendency to drift strongly to the right. They have a tendency to become more xenophobic. This is going to be to the benefit of the isolationists and EV. The cosmopolitan Elves are already living in places like Silverymoon, so they have no real interest in moving to Myth Drannor. Even if they did, they'd still be a minority. The nationalists, who were more likely to work with outsiders, are now less likely to do so--their main focus is going to be on trying to rebuild Myth Drannor and make their nation strong. They are going to be more distrustful of outsiders.
The bulk of the Elves, most of who would come from returned Evermeet, are going to be isolationists. However, as they drift rightward, a portion of them are going to lean toward EV. Even some of the nationalists may lean toward EV.
So, basically, you are going to see the Elves become more isolationist and xenophobic of outsiders. Their primary goal is going to be to retake Myth Drannor, and force out all the people defiling the city. They are then going to want to seal the borders of their forest to keep outsiders out while they rebuild.
Imagine how this is going to look to the human outsiders. If you are a Dalelander, you are hearing stories of thousands upon thousands of Elves starting to appear in the forest. You are being told that you are not allowed into or near the forest. Best case scenario, you are roughly escorted out. Worst case scenario, you are shot full of arrows and left to fertilize the soil.
The leadership on both sides are going to want to urge calm and peace. However, that is going to be hard to maintain. On the human side of things, you are going to have EV engaging in terror in the Dalelands. EV is going to act independent of what the Elven leadership wants. As they engage in terror campaigns against humans in the Dalelands, what is going to happen there? Just like among the Elves, there is going to be a rightward shift ideologically. People are going to become more isolationist and xenophobic. They are going to become more fearful of Elves, and they are not going to trust having Elves in their communities.
Meanwhile, you are going to see Elves from across Faerun traveling the roads in an attempt to get to Myth Drannor. Many of them are going to want to help rebuild the city and protect the tree. This is going to require them to pass through the Dalelands. How are the humans going to feel about that? They hear stories of Elves from Myth Drannor attacking humans--both isolationists who are trying to keep humans out of the Forest, as well as terrorist actions by EV. Then they see these elves passing through their community on their way to Myth Drannor. The natural human reaction is to assume that they are a spy or that they likely have some type of ill intent. Or you will simply feel threatened by even more Elves going into the forest. Eventually, some group of humans are going to attack those traveling Elves. Then what happens?
From an Elven perspective, you are traveling those roads to get to Myth Drannor. At some point along the way, you've likely had to deal with the typical human brigands. Then here you are in the Dalelands, and you stop over in a town for the night. However, as you and your companions sleep, humans show up, drag you out of your bed--and in the best case scenario--they are going to rough you up as they harshly interrogate you. In the worst case scenario, there will be torture, rape, mutilation, and murder involved. Assuming that you survive this ordeal or through some other means word reaches the Elves in Myth Drannor... what is likely their response?
Let's further examine what life is like for the Elves returning to Myth Drannor. Once again, it is important to remember that this is a holy and sacred site for them due to the fact that the Tree of Souls is planted here. Half of the population of your holy city has just been massacred. What remains of your enemies who are still there are literally looting, pillaging, and defiling that holy city. Imagine returning to Myth Drannor as an Elf who lived there, and was forced to temporarily become a refugee.
From that Elf's perspective, you know multiple people who have died fighting to hold that city. These are people you were close too. You are in deep mourning. Everyone that you know is in deep mourning. Unimaginable grief. You show up, and then you see or hear tales of human brigands looting, pillaging, and defiling the place they died to defend--this holy and sacred place. As you walk through the city, you can see how they took pretty much everything that wasn't nailed down, and more than a few things that were. You see or hear stories of Elven graves being disturbed, as the humans dug them up to loot their corpses. You hear or see holy shrines and temples devoted to your deities defiled and looted of everything valuable--sacred and holy objects gone missing, having fallen into the hands of humans. You walk into your former home, and it's a mess. Humans have gone through it, looking for everything of value. Things that only held any value to you for their sentimentality are broken and smashed, treated as if it were trash.
This is what it is like to return to Myth Drannor. What are these Elves feeling? What are these Elves experiencing?
All of this is extremely fertile soil for a group like the Eldreth Veluuthra to plant their racist seeds.
Now, imagine that you hear stories of Elves, some are refugees trying to return home--people you may know--being attacked by humans in the Dalelands. How are you going to feel about that?
Meanwhile, you have a group like EV "solving" problems. For example, EV hears that there is a mercenary living well off of the things he pillaged in the Dalelands. They go, murder the mercenary and his friends, and return what they can of value that has been stolen. EV learns the names of those who defiled holy shrines? They are now dead. EV learns of the humans attacking and harassing Elves trying to return to Myth Drannor? They are now dead. From the perspective of the average Elf, even if you don't completely agree with EV and its methods, they are giving you some form of justice. It may be vigilante justice, but it is still justice.
Meanwhile, you are going to have Ilsevele and Fflar--at best--urging caution, restraint, the need for justice to travel through the proper channels, etc. Their positions of leadership have to be tenuous. At the end of the day, like it or not, over half of the population of Myth Drannor is dead and the city was lost on their watch, and then defiled by their enemies. Leaders need legitimacy. That can really only come from the support and the will of the people. Had Evermeet not returned, they would have zero real chance of retaking Myth Drannor.
So, it is under this dark political cloud, that Ilsevele Miritar operates as Coronal. How much power does she really have to stop and constrain a group like EV? If she arrests them and brings them to justice, she risks turning them into martyrs. If she does nothing, then this further agitates the humans of the Dalelands, creating greater conflict potential. The only real option she has is using her public platform to condemn their actions, but even that is not without risk as she has the potential to look out of touch with many of the commoner Elves. They simply are not going to share her bigger picture focus.
So, it is with this internal conflict among the Elves that the larger geopolitical problems play out. Shade is gone. The only other major power in the region at the moment is Cormyr. However, as Myth Drannor is reclaimed and the Return begins to pick up in earnest, Myth Drannor is going to quickly become the dominant power in the region. How is this going to look and feel from a human perspective? Is Cormyr going to be totally cool with that?
How do you think the Dalelands is going to feel about having a militarily powerful neighbor that is going to want to at least dictate to some degree how they live their lives--especially as it relates to the forest?
Of course, this doesn't even touch on the fact that in the minds of the Elves pretty much all of that land that those humans occupy actually belongs to their ancestors and thus their people. Those are literally their ancestral lands, and the only reason the forest no longer covers those ancestral lands is because humans chopped it down and craved it up. And when I say "ancestral lands", due to long Elven lifespans, we're talking about individuals who were these peoples parents, grand parents, and great grand parents. So, it is likely that they all knew the people who actually lived on the land that the humans now occupy, or were at least hearing the stories second hand. Even though from a human perspective, this was many, many, many generations ago. For an Elf that human is literally on his grandfather's land. In some cases, there may even be elderly Elves who actually lived in areas where humans now claim for their own. This element to the dynamics at play should not be overlooked.
So, what is going to ultimately happen? Conflict between the Elves and humans, particularly the humans of the Dalelands, is inevitable. The leaders of both sides may be able to keep things from falling into open war, but the hostilities between both groups will be extremely high. Meanwhile, Cormyr is going to be concerned and afraid of Myth Drannor's growing power and influence in the region. This means you'll see Cormyr meddling with the politics in the Dales, likely giving arms and weapons to those who want to stir up trouble against the Elves. Even if the Cormyr Crown is opposed to it, individual noble houses are certain to act in this way, and if they act independent of the Crown, things are likely to be much worse due to individual noble self-interest. You'll also see meddling coming in from the Moonsea as well.
Basically, the geopolitics of the return is going to inevitably push the humans and Elves into conflict. This conflict is unavoidable.
Things get bad if something happens to Coronal Ilsevele Miritar, either because EV has her assassinated, because some outside human group has her assassinated, or EV assassinates her and places the blame at the feet of an outside human group. Or she acts stupid politically, she loses legitimacy, and the people turn against her. Things take a dark direction if that happens.
In short, I think Coronal Ilsevele Miritar's continued rule will look something like this scene from Game of Thrones, Season 5, Episode 2. That's how the average Joe elf will feel and react if the isolationists or EV are brought to justice by her. |
|
|
|
Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 21:20:00
|
My problem with all this is the elves are expected to give up their home while races such as humans are not. Elves have the right to be in their forests just as much as humans belong in their human cities.
The only conflict I see happening is normal conflict that any other city or Realm faces on a daily basis. Humans and elves aren't at war so I see no need for any types of racially motivated hostility.
I actually see this as a perfect opportunity for the elves to regain a bit of their former glory. I could see High Mages coming in and with the help of the Tree of Souls, actually expand Cormanthor a bit. There are still areas around it that don't belong to any one kingdom. High Magic is no joke, all you have to do is look at the many things it is capable of. I don't see why they can't use High Magic to remove the ruins of Shade and start rebuilding the city. Bring in the aid of druids all around and start rebuilding.
Sadly what I also see is a specific plot instead of what could actually happen. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 22:14:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
My problem with all this is the elves are expected to give up their home while races such as humans are not. Elves have the right to be in their forests just as much as humans belong in their human cities.
It's always been the case that humans are far more numerous and constantly push into new lands, which leaves elves with two options: fight a war they will eventually lose (because humans can replace their losses far more readily) or go elsewhere. I'll agree with you that elves have the right to live in the forests, but the in-setting explanation for their displacement hasn't been a rights thing, it's been simple numbers not being in their favor.
Never been cool with that, myself. Elves are part of what makes fantasy, so the constant retreat to the west (a trope started by Tolkien, as I recall) takes some of the wonder away from any setting that uses that trope. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 22:24:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
My problem with all this is the elves are expected to give up their home while races such as humans are not. Elves have the right to be in their forests just as much as humans belong in their human cities.
It's always been the case that humans are far more numerous and constantly push into new lands, which leaves elves with two options: fight a war they will eventually lose (because humans can replace their losses far more readily) or go elsewhere. I'll agree with you that elves have the right to live in the forests, but the in-setting explanation for their displacement hasn't been a rights thing, it's been simple numbers not being in their favor.
...and Wooly is exactly correct here. This is why the planting of the Tree of Souls changes everything. It ends that Retreat and signals the Return. The Elves are no longer going to be running away as humans encroach upon their lands. This leads to the other alternative that Wooly points out: conflict.
And as Shadowsoul points out, the Elves have the ability to access the High Magic from the Tree of Souls. Which, I should note, that they can access and use without penalty as one of the properties of the tree.
Around this point in history, the Tree of Souls has roughly a 200 mile radius in which High Magic can be used without penalty. Now, add to the fact that there is a permanent portal linking the tree to Evermeet, meaning tens of thousands of Elves can freely come over now that it has returned. The odds don't look so bad for the Elves anymore in a conflict with humans. |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 23:36:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Just wait till Moander possesses the tree and starts pumping out abominations fueled by decomposing elf spirits.
But Moander is down - unlike Lolth, for good, not for maintenance. Right?
So it depends on who uses his husk as a hand-puppet at the time - for some reason it was Lolth. But she could trade it to Ghanadaur - assuming they can somehow prevent each other from cheating on the transaction.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
On the other hand, the fecal matter just impacted the bladed ventilation device in Sembia, and having neighbors who are rebuilding means there is going to be money changing hands... And when money changes hands, Sembians want their hands to be the ones receiving that money.
[...] They're not going to be planning double dates any time soon, but there's going to be a fair amount of "as long as they don't bother us..." on both sides.
Sembians, maybe. But the elves? Since when they exercised "as long as they don't bother us..." approach? Would they even try to reconquer Myth Drannor to begin with?
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
However, it only puts them in an even worse position--a similar position that they found themselves in when the Return started. However, the politics of the situation are going to be much worse.
Yeah. It's like the Palinka Effect, except all components already are there and were brewing into many fascinating and volatile products for centuries.
quote:
It is important to keep in mind that the Tree of Souls has a portal wide open on Evermeet. This means that tens of thousands of Elves have the ability to come over immediately and help reclaim Myth Drannor.
This also means they will never feel safe locked out any more. It's going to be "Elf-gate at Evereska 2: Electric Boogaloo", only this time both more desperate and more inspired.
quote:
So, it is under this dark political cloud, that Ilsevele Miritar operates as Coronal. How much power does she really have to stop and constrain a group like EV? If she arrests them and brings them to justice, she risks turning them into martyrs.
She could retain credibility if she acts quickly and gets visible results on the human side of the board. After all, the Harpers kept EV mostly under wraps for centuries, that was harder.
But this bridge may be just too thin to not break. Especially when there are so many forces interested in breaking it.
For a humble example, let's not consider movers and shakers, but place ourselves for a minute into lizard-hide boots of a peaceful (relatively) drow merchant.
As long as you don't barge into Cormyr with its War Wizards, life and trade used to be good around here. Sembians are haggling like devils good sport and noisy, but they have nice goods and don't ask stupid questions.
Dalesmen may be distastefully elf-lovin', but "you don't bother them, and they won't bother you" works here better than in most places. The clan Jaelre was easy to get along with, but as partners these thieves aren't great loss.
How should he feel about elves gaining control of the region?
He would rather leave pointless wars to the spider-kissing ladies with bad sense of humor, and at most would wince at transit through the territory of surface elves. But the barbaric surface cousins don't see it the same way.
The roads previously threatened at worst by chimerae now have border guard and magical checks, and elves sometimes send patrols out, and always stick their noses into what isn't their business. What to do?
Our merchant may be not warlike, but he enjoys access to lots of magic from above and below alike, connections on surface, and most importantly - benefits from the upbringing which makes Sembians look like clumsy boastful children.
He is infinitely more keen about the local situation and politics than the vast majority of the elves from Evermeet.
He will notice the cracks into the wall dropped on his trails at the first meeting in a road tavern with caravan from Sembia or Dales. Then what? This cannot end well.
The people fighting with gold and words don't need to approach within hand crossbow range to cause trouble. They will not risk exposing themselves, and may even get rid of a few rivals with the hands of elves as a bonus.
Now, the drow tend to be the most competent at this sort of things, but there are many others with reasons to seriously dislike Cormanthan elves without living near them, or ever seeing one.
Traders in goods the elves don't deign to approve even for transit. People who blame elves for some part of this mess, having pals killed, schemes shattered beyond repair, income lost because the roads became less passable than they once were, and so on.
How about the dwarves whom some spoiled brat from Evermeet offended - will they just forget it for a change and be happy that thousands of these arrived?
How about the planetouched who remember that their ancestors were massacred by some elves at the place that became Ravens Bluff? And the rest of them would not be alarmed when they hear about "the great fey'ri hunt"?..
quote:
Of course, this doesn't even touch on the fact that in the minds of the Elves pretty much all of that land that those humans occupy actually belongs to their ancestors and thus their people.
Yup. Thus, humans will star with cautious optimism and/or opportunism, which will gradually wither as the elves stop being something semi-exotic. Then everyone will see not only those few mingling with the humans, but the mass of precious snowflakes who cannot be trusted to cooperate even when it's in their best interest (the relief mission to Evereska that strained even Blackstaff's patience comes to mind), but demand earth and sky and evidently think they own the world because they are So Cute.
And possibly that Zentarim were less of a stick in the wheels of trade.
Then the whole snowball will roll downhill - slowly, but with noticeable acceleration.
quote:
The only other major power in the region at the moment is Cormyr. However, as Myth Drannor is reclaimed and the Return begins to pick up in earnest, Myth Drannor is going to quickly become the dominant power in the region. How is this going to look and feel from a human perspective? Is Cormyr going to be totally cool with that?
Cormyr consistently proved itself to be ally and heir of the elves.
But your point still applies - this situation is likely to increase internal tensions. Depending on the ebb and flow of politics at the time, possibly so much that Cormyr won't even be able to do in support of Cormanthor something that would increase external tensions. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 10 Dec 2015 00:00:37 |
|
|
|
Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 00:43:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
My problem with all this is the elves are expected to give up their home while races such as humans are not. Elves have the right to be in their forests just as much as humans belong in their human cities.
It's always been the case that humans are far more numerous and constantly push into new lands, which leaves elves with two options: fight a war they will eventually lose (because humans can replace their losses far more readily) or go elsewhere. I'll agree with you that elves have the right to live in the forests, but the in-setting explanation for their displacement hasn't been a rights thing, it's been simple numbers not being in their favor.
Never been cool with that, myself. Elves are part of what makes fantasy, so the constant retreat to the west (a trope started by Tolkien, as I recall) takes some of the wonder away from any setting that uses that trope.
Well look at Cormanthor now? Most of the elves left and huge numbers of humans haven't moved in so why not come back?
Same goes with the High Forest. It still remains a vast forest that has been sitting uninhabited for a long time. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 02:14:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
So, it is under this dark political cloud, that Ilsevele Miritar operates as Coronal. How much power does she really have to stop and constrain a group like EV? If she arrests them and brings them to justice, she risks turning them into martyrs.
She could retain credibility if she acts quickly and gets visible results on the human side of the board. After all, the Harpers kept EV mostly under wraps for centuries, that was harder.
But this bridge may be just too thin to not break. Especially when there are so many forces interested in breaking it.
You are right about all the minor groups. However, I am more interested in what is going on internally among the Elves. Just place yourself in their mindset.
Literally more than half of the people in your city have just been massacred. These are people you know. Your brother, your sister, your parents, your friends. You are grieving, and everyone you know is grieving. You are now a refugee. People you know decided to stay back and fight, even knowing that death was certain, and the battle was lost.
However, the Coronal survives. Myth Drannor is lost. The city and the tree are being defiled. People you know decided to stand bravely and essentially make a suicidal stand rather than let the tree be defiled and the city fall... and the Coronal and her Consort lives. ...and everyone you know now is a refugee living in exile.
This is literally the starting position for Ilsevele. She has lost Myth Drannor. The city and the tree are being defiled. All of her people are now refugees living in exile.
There would be next to zero hope of retaking Myth Drannor if not for the support of Elves from Evermeet. The only thing essentially holding Ilsevele in power at the moment is the fact that who else are they going to turn too? She is their leader. They are in shock.
She has to move amazingly quick to retake Myth Drannor. There is no other option to preserve her rule. Otherwise, she will lose all legitimacy, and internal factions will rise up, essentially overthrowing her.
However, EV is not opposed to retaking Myth Drannor. They would be just as committed to that goal as she is--they are not the threat here. Their threat is more insidious. It's the poison they begin leaking into the Elven populous through propaganda. It is very easy for the EV to play on resentment, xenophobia, and grief.
Literally, the cards dealt to EV could not be more favorable. As just like in the real world, when horrible things happen like this people ALWAYS retreat toward the right and toward xenophobia.
Even if you take EV out of the equation, the more isolationist Elves are going to cause huge problems. For example, just imagine the more isolationist Elves pushing out loggers from the Dalelands, or worse yet--shooting them full of arrows. If what you own a business which revolves around lumber, you are not going to feel very good about your livelihood being screwed over. You are going to feel even worse if some of your lumberjacks end up dead. Not to mention the lumberjacks themselves, who are now out of a job or dead. All of these people are going to turn to their leadership in the Dalelands to do something, and if they do nothing, they might respond by taking matters into their own hands. That is going to mean killing Elves.
You are right to focus on all the little every day people that are often overlooked. If you just focus on the leadership, none of the leaders want conflict. However, it is going to be their people who provoke it. They cannot stop it. It cannot be prevented.
The best that can be hoped for is avoiding open war, but that is largely going to depend on keeping Coronal Ilsevele Miritar alive and well and in power. However, she is going to remain politically weak and vulnerable for perhaps decades to come--perhaps longer. The only thing that could strengthen her is another external attack. |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 02:23:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Well look at Cormanthor now? Most of the elves left and huge numbers of humans haven't moved in so why not come back?
Same goes with the High Forest. It still remains a vast forest that has been sitting uninhabited for a long time.
Because if you want to remain culturally pure, or put another way--remain true to Elven traditionalist ways--it is going to be difficult to do when you are surrounded by humans. You will be sucked into their conflicts and their politics. ...and that's exactly what happened, see the conflict with the Shades.
If you want to remain true to Elven traditions and ways, you are going to favor more isolationist policies. You are going to be less inclined to support trade and friendship with outside groups, such as the humans from the Dales.
Taking this approach is going to lead to conflict, because it will breed mistrust and resentment over time. Things that may be small in the grand scheme of things will add up, and the common humans view will start to harden toward the Elves. This is made worse by the fact that the Elves have among them individuals who see humans as vermin. They will take actions that will anger, terrorize, and provoke the humans. This only goes to further the mistrust and resentment.
Really, the only way things work is if Myth Drannor opens itself up to humans. Humans can live, become citizens, and all the rest. However, the humans will bring with them their own culture, their way of life, and it will conflict with theirs. This will undermine Elven traditions and culture.
There are certainly a faction of Elves who would be more than happy to throw open the gates and welcome in humans in as their friends, neighbors, and equals. However, the majority of the Elves would be completely opposed to this. |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 05:41:36
|
And when human men start knocking up your daughters, you are looking at a serious demographic threat.
IIRC, a person with both elf and human ancestors will either be a human or a half elf. The mix never breeds back to full elf.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 07:06:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
You are right about all the minor groups. However, I am more interested in what is going on internally among the Elves.
There will be several factions with different interests and motivations both among the Humans and among the Elves (for all their pretend-hivemind).
Even aside of the "Elven Crusade 1.0" survivors.
There are un-retreating elves from Evermeet - who in turn may go for the legend of Myth Drannor, or because they didn't get on a ship for the crusade, or because they are inspired by the news of that, etc.
There are "continental" elves - EV, or those not warlike, but willing to help their kin, or the fans of the "Dream of Myth Drannor", or Silvers living among the humanity who remember how the visiting island elves often embarrass them and want to make sure they won't make too much of a mess this time.
quote:
She has to move amazingly quick to retake Myth Drannor. There is no other option to preserve her rule. Otherwise, she will lose all legitimacy, and internal factions will rise up, essentially overthrowing her.
True. She must move quickly. And then her performance will be quietly judged. Which may turn either way.
quote:
However, EV is not opposed to retaking Myth Drannor. They would be just as committed to that goal as she is--they are not the threat here.
Yes. At this point the elves are united in purpose and there are no external forces other than disorganized looters to oppose them, the operation will go smoothly.
Right upon the arrival there indeed should be morale issues, once they see what happened to the city.
But also, everyone will be very busy, and if their rulers lead by example and start cleaning up, they will be followed and keep everyone too busy to mope.
If it's all organized competently enough, Ilsevele and company will get some credit in the end.
quote:
Their threat is more insidious. It's the poison they begin leaking into the Elven populous through propaganda. It is very easy for the EV to play on resentment, xenophobia, and grief.
Yes. But also, Myth Drannor is going to host supporters, and more Harpers (elven) than any single settlement other than Berdusk even had.
At least, enough to make sure that every success of Ilsevele and every good move of the allies are widely known ("Dalesmen now are patrolling the roads and catch looters, they extradited three yesterday, along with whatever these rats from Westgate stole!").
quote:
Even if you take EV out of the equation, the more isolationist Elves are going to cause huge problems. For example, just imagine the more isolationist Elves pushing out loggers from the Dalelands, or worse yet--shooting them full of arrows.
Yup. But the amount of incidents will depend on whether the cooperation and joint patrols were established preemptively. If yes, the elves who wander into the Dales mostly meet other, less hotheaded elves first, who are willing to prevent most troubles of this sort, arrange official mediation if someone demands justice, etc. Again, old (Harper) networks could help to start.
This won't help much against premeditated attacks by EV itself, of course, but would prefer spontaneous escalation. Patrols could at least hinder EV.
However, will EV want to escalate this too quickly?
They are sneaky because they know head-on war is not an option, humans outnumber them. They also know that the neo-Cormanthan elves suffered losses, aren't settled and set up defences yet - even if it's easy to get support, at this point risking a head-on war with all human realms around obviously is a bad strategy.
They probably would hold back, prepare hideouts and keep up quiet grumbling among the elves for later, while trying to make human neighbours fight each other.
Perhaps singling out Sembia as both the most disliked by everyone else and likely to leave behind a cesspool of tiny vicious powers and banditry once it falls - something that could later poison Cormyr one way or another.
For the same reason, messing with one place will attract eyes from the others. I, for one, am wondering how many of the nice Sshamathan folk (for example and assuming the place is not deus-ex-machined away) are fond of Saerloonian vintages. After all, it's more fun when it's personal.
quote:
If what you own a business which revolves around lumber, you are not going to feel very good about your livelihood being screwed over.
Who does the heavy logging around there? Dalesmen don't build fleets and generally mind where they go for wood. Cormyr is heavily policed, both border and in that the Crown makes sure that the land is maintained properly. Also, it has its own old deals with the elves, and isn't so close to Cormanthor that randomly wandering elves could be a major threat to begin with.
Logging rage is going to be a problem for Sembians. While both Cormyr and Dales may well side with elves on the general principle and dismiss most outrageous incidents as slanderous rumours.
quote:
You are going to feel even worse if some of your lumberjacks end up dead. Not to mention the lumberjacks themselves, who are now out of a job or dead.
Logging is a vulnerable side, of course, but that's quite predictable. If some cooperation is established early on, the problem can be mostly prevented - for one, by giving the loggers escort/oversight including elves. The necessity of which can be easily justified to both sides without loss of face: after all, the war got to shoo out of cover everything from lowly marauders to gorgons to bands of desperate drow.
Again, the lest willing to cooperate and thus most likely to eat arrows are Sembian interests, while the others may even point out that they don't have such problems.
Another side of this is that e.g. Scardale folk isn't fond of Sembians constantly trying to sneak in and own their backyards via straw persons. If told "the elves want to kick the Sembians out and keep out", their reaction would be to warily approve, use Sembia as a scapegoat for everything whether it's believable or not - and cooperate, if only to make sure the elves won't hit them by mistake.
quote:
You are right to focus on all the little every day people that are often overlooked. If you just focus on the leadership, none of the leaders want conflict.
However, it is going to be their people who provoke it. They cannot stop it. It cannot be prevented.
Thus said leaders would try to at least stave off the escalation until most ruffled feathers are settled back.
And/or redirect the anger toward those they think deserves spanking either way. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 10 Dec 2015 07:13:04 |
|
|
|
Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 09:21:49
|
Evereska is still going strong so why can't Myth Drannor? I'm seeing way too many hypo reasons why Myth Drannor couldn't make it. We aren't talking about a city that is sitting is earshot of some human Realm. It still sits deep in the forest. The only reason Shade got involved was because of the Mythal. It just had something Shade wanted. Why pick on Myth Drannor when there are other Mythal protected cities?
There is no reason why elves could not establish themselves again in Cormanthor. Will things be difficult? Sure they will but the elves do have a lot of friends and I think by this point the elves and other races do get along. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 14:53:14
|
| Hmmm, I see some offensive and OT real world material in a post by someone else. Out before the thread lock. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 10 Dec 2015 14:54:05 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 16:34:02
|
| I may ask Ed (though it might be NDA) if he can reveal anything about the plans/current state of Ilsevele and Fflar. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 18:15:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Evereska is still going strong so why can't Myth Drannor?
Because Evereska and Myth Drannor are in two completely different situations. For one, Evereska actively chooses to hide and isolate itself from outsiders, particularly humans. They do what they can not to advertise their presence, and keep a low-ish profile. (Well, they did, until humans started sucking them into all their shenanigans.)
Myth Drannor, on the other hand, is now the site where the Return is supposed to happen. It is supposed to be the place where Elves make their glorious comeback--where they begin returning to their power and prominence in the Realms before the Crown Wars. That is the end goal for the Return--it is not about isolating yourself and trying to keep outsiders out. It is about re-establishing Elven power and dominance on the mainland.
What you say WOULD be true, if the Tree of Souls hadn't been planted. If you accept the significance of the Tree, and treat it as it is supposed to be treated, then you understand why it is a game changer. The old rules no longer apply. They are operating under an entirely new rule book, with a completely different set of goals. Where the tree is planted is supposed to be the new Elven homeland.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Will things be difficult? Sure they will but the elves do have a lot of friends and I think by this point the elves and other races do get along.
When you say "elves" you shouldn't speak in such generalities. It is true that mainland Elves have largely gotten along with humans and other races. However, they are a tiny minority of Elves, and they were mostly people not going into Retreat. So, you have Elves living among humans in places like Silverymoon and Waterdeep. That's wonderful and all of that. However, having large numbers of Elves come over from Evermeet is a horse of a different color.
These are Elves who have, by choosing to Retreat in the past, were actively choosing NOT to live among humans. That desire likely has not changed, even as they Return to the mainland.
In my home Realms, the Return has caused Cormanthor to become a kingdom of roughly a million Elves. Many of them came from Evermeet, but many also came from across Faerun. Myth Drannor has a population slightly greater than it did at its height. This is what Cormanthor should look like, as a result of planting the Tree of Souls. This is also what makes it look very different from a place like Evereska.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
If the neighboring human realms are ruled by cowards, fools, or sentimentalists, the elves have a chance.
If more ambitious , aggressive, and far sighted men are charge...
This is a perfect time to seize large swathes of valuable territory and abundant natural resources.
The elves will take centuries to recover. Their slow maturation and low fertility put them at a huge disadvantage.
Any human looses in the fighting would be replaceable in a single generation. The humans have time and numbers on their side,mans if they press their advantage they stand to gain a great deal. The risk reward ratio may look tempting.
(And of course these are reedy D&D elves, not uber-elves out of the Silmarillion. Despite the unearned air of superiority that clings about the race, they actually are not more powerful on the whole than humans or most other demihuman races. They have a set of advantages, along with some disadvantages.)
Even If Cormyr intervened to prevent Sembian expansion, I think a new Cormyrian client state or protectorate would be a more likely result than a restored and independent Cormanthor.
But of course it can all turn out however the actual play of the game and the designs of the DM determine.
If we assume that the portal from the Tree of Souls is still functional and open to Evermeet, then there is no reason that the Elven recovery should not be swift. There should be an army coming over from Evermeet in short order to help retake Myth Drannor, and they'll be coming through that portal.
Pretty much everything Myth Drannor needs should be coming through that portal.
The only reason Myth Drannor should have fallen is because they had lost contact with Evermeet. Evermeet and all of its people were ripped away into the Feywild when the Spellplague hit. Now, post-Sundering, Evermeet and all its people have returned. This means contact can be re-established, and reinforcements should be on their way.
It should take Myth Drannor less than two years for them to return to their pre-war state, and less than five years to surpass it. Those are the more conservative estimates. Most of the time is spent on rebuilding and cleanup. Retaking the city should take a couple of weeks once the Elves on Evermeet figure out what has happened, and have time to organize a strong response.
Keep in mind the bulk of the Elven power on Toril exists right now on Evermeet, and it is now back.
As for Cormyr... well... things have changed for Cormyr. The 4E FRCG made clear that Cormyr had begun to have imperialist ambitions. They have already annexed some Sembian cities, resettled parts of Tilver’s Gap, pushed southwest into the Dragon Coast, and brought the city of Proskur under their thumb.
Right now, there is a huge power vacuum in the region. Shade is gone. Sembia is in chaos. Myth Drannor has fallen. This leaves Cormyr as the last big power standing in the heartlands.
If I had to predict Cormyr's next moves, it would be to quickly begin annexing more of Sembia, and bringing the bulk of that territory under its rule. This would be done through a mixture of force and diplomacy. I'd say it would take about a decade to fully achieve this, unless Cormyr wants to do a very strong military push and just out right conquer the land.
This course of action will only become more necessary if the Elves start coming over from Evermeet in larger numbers. Even if they consider themselves allies with the Elves of Myth Drannor, they are not going to want to be the junior allies, and let Myth Drannor set the terms of agreements and negotiations. They are going to want to be equal partners. If they have any hope of achieving that, then it is going to require the annexation of Sembia.
It is also important for Cormyr's security to annex Sembia, because the last thing you want is a failed state on your border, and to be flooded with refugees as warlords fight over scraps of land. Cormyr showing up will bring with it stability and order, and prevent outside forces from using Sembia's failed state status to cause Cormyr problems. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Tree of Souls: When will it be planted on Faerun?
