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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 21:49:03
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| The FR Wiki can serve as a stand in for a book reference, in the interim until another sourcebook is (hopefully) released. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 22:06:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I found a reference to Lurue in the book, as well, and she's not in the deity line up.
These are things that would be important to a newcomer as they would ask "Who is Lurue, or who is Velsharoon? They are in the book as having temples but they aren't in the deity line up.
Considering that the references I've seen are just passing references, I don't think the newcomer is going to be overly chuffed by not having more info on these two deities, since the ones that are more prominent do have proper coverage.
Lurue is my favorite Realms deity, but I'll be the first to admit that even in earlier editions, she was hardly ever mentioned. She didn't even make the cut to be in the first deity book -- instead, she was in the second one, along with Finder, who had at least appeared in novels. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 23:47:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Actually, I don't think it is a matter of belief.
Actually as DM it is up to moon beast whether they died or not. The Sword Coast Adventurers Guide is couched as "this is what people in the Sword Coast think" and there is no reason that as DM moon east can't say "those beliefs are wrong" or contradict canon from earlier editions as well. The Realms is what you make it. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 00:01:22
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I wasn't suggesting that a DM couldn't change things, I was just referring to what -is- canon. The gods have always been part of the Realms, and it's not just a matter of belief because in the Realms, the gods are in fact real. That's canon. And it is also canon that some gods died during the Spellplague and now most if not all of them have returned. If the DM wants to do something different with them, then they are free to do so. But canon is there for a reason, otherwise there would be no point in having an established world and D&D would be very different. There would no lore, no ref books, and no novels. If canon has no merit, then there would be little point in these kinds of forums, no one would care one way or another what happens in what edition, and so forth. But as is evident by various discussions here and elsewhere, people do care. You can't go against canon if there is no canon to go against.
If a DM wants to say "actually these gods died in the Spellplague and didn't return", that is their choice. But as moon beast was curious and is new to the Realms, I was telling them what is in fact canon. They are free to design their own campaign from there. My statement was about what is canon, not about what a DM can or can't do with it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 00:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I wasn't suggesting that a DM couldn't change things, I was just referring to what -is- canon. The gods have always been part of the Realms, and it's not just a matter of belief because in the Realms, the gods are in fact real. That's canon.
In the context of my post it was "here's a bunch of older books you can use. Thanks to the Spellplague and the belief that some gods died (which is referenced in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide) you can change any of the god details as you like. You can also change which gods did and didn't die."
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
If canon has no merit, then there would be little point in these kinds of forums, no one would care one way or another what happens in what edition, and so forth. But as is evident by various discussions here and elsewhere, people do care. You can't go against canon if there is no canon to go against.
I was speaking as a DM to a new DM about some resources they could use for their game and some facts they could change as suited them. At no point was this an attack on the Forgotten Realms. I apologise if my post offended you or if you felt it was deliberately misleading. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 01:14:15
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Also stated in SCAG is that many of the dead gods have returned, and indeed, the deity list confirms it. As a DM, of course you could keep certain gods dead, or say they never died at all. My reference was merely to what is in fact established canon in regards to the presence of the gods in the Realms as things now stand and that their existence is not just "belief" in the Realms, as it is in the real world. That is what I meant by it being more than belief. Certainly in the years after the Spellplague and during the second Sundering some felt the gods had abandoned them. But it has been established that most if not all the gods have returned (details on how are murky, and most just say "Ao did it" because there was the whole rewriting of the Tablets. Now -that- is something a DM could play with). And the gods are "quieter" than they used to be, leaving it up to their priests/followers (and by extension players), to intrepret their signs.
And I accept your apology  I apologize as well. I get fired up when talking about the gods because they are one of my favorite aspects of the Realms (though I know a lot of people don't like or care about them as much as I do). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 02:05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I found a reference to Lurue in the book, as well, and she's not in the deity line up.
These are things that would be important to a newcomer as they would ask "Who is Lurue, or who is Velsharoon? They are in the book as having temples but they aren't in the deity line up.
Considering that the references I've seen are just passing references, I don't think the newcomer is going to be overly chuffed by not having more info on these two deities, since the ones that are more prominent do have proper coverage.
Lurue is my favorite Realms deity, but I'll be the first to admit that even in earlier editions, she was hardly ever mentioned. She didn't even make the cut to be in the first deity book -- instead, she was in the second one, along with Finder, who had at least appeared in novels.
The reference I remember reading in the book mentioned that Lurue is often confused by some people with Mielikki because they both bear a Unicorn symbol, and I did get the impression that she still served Mielikki because Mielikki's entry used the explanation that stories of the two have Mielikki riding on Lurue's back. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 02:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I found a reference to Lurue in the book, as well, and she's not in the deity line up.
These are things that would be important to a newcomer as they would ask "Who is Lurue, or who is Velsharoon? They are in the book as having temples but they aren't in the deity line up.
Yeah the SCAGs deity list is messed up, they left out Gods that are mentioned elsewhere in the book, Gods we know still exist like Nobanion thanks to The Reaver novel, and it has a side bar for the the Mulhorand Gods, and doesn't list them or even point out that most of them are listed in the player's hand book, except Anhur.
One of the goofies moments is when in the Arcane domain section they point to Gods of other setting that would have the Arcane Domain, including ISIS who is in fact in the Forgotten Realms and is mentioned in elsewhere in the book. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 05:27:41
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I've mentioned, more than once, my dislike for the whole tripartite sun deity thing... And now we've got Lathander, Amaunator, and Myrkul all active at the same time.
I preferred Myrkul as an artifact, but at least his return pretty much nixes that tripartite sun deity idea. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 05:37:03
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Having only spent the last year and a half or so in the Forgotten Realms, I found this book a really nice resource to have, not only as a DM but for my players, as it contains the kind of information their characters might have access to. The basic goal of the book seems to be to give a view of the Sword Coast from the bottom-up view of adventurers (hence the "SCAG"), rather than a top-down view of what all the gods are up to etc, which totally works for me. IMHO, what's in the book is kind of what's advertised in the title, nothing more, nothing less. Hopefully a full campaign guide will be released eventually detailing that kind of stuff, but this is much appreciated in the meantime!
For my players, it's nice to have a concise and easy area to refer to regarding the races, as it was the kind of thing I had to write up for them previously. I find it odd they didn't include the genasi - but oh well. I like the FR specific information on classes too, it's nice for players to be more simply and easily incorporated into the world without the DM having to do the groundwork for them. The lore of all the different cities is nice for a DM like me who is relatively new to the Realms too, as it gives a basic rundown and feel without getting bogged down in their history. Although I have spent a lot of time trying to absorb as much history as I can from earlier edition books, at the end of the day it's often not that relevant to the campaign I'm running right now. In an immediate campaign sense, right now this kind of street-level look is appreciated.
As far as the gods are concerned, I was especially a fan of the descriptions of the evil gods, detailing reasons why laypeople might say a prayer to them.
There seems to be a lot of disappointment going around regarding this or that god not getting a full entry in the gods section, but the impression I get is that these are supposed to be the gods that are most worshipped in the Sword Coast right now, or the gods adventurers in the Sword Coast are most likely to be interested in (tying back in to the title of the book). I'm sure all the rest still exist or have been brought back, it's just maybe in the 1490s Sword Coast they're not that big a deal. I'm sure they all have a few worshippers, but maybe just not enough in this region of the world to warrant their inclusion in a book like this. The inclusion of Jergal kind of puts a hole in that theory, but oh well - maybe they've got some sort of plan for him. Ultimately they probably just decided to make a shortlist of gods that they wanted to concentrate on for the Sword Coast rather than do all the Realms, and leave the rest to get full writeups in later releases. Just my guess anyway.
Long story short, it's still left me voracious for a full campaign guide, new faiths book, etc... but in the meantime this will serve me well for DMing in the area, and hopefully will serve as inspiration for my players too. I think it's a great resource for the abundance of DMs who will have been introduced to the Realms with the launch of 5th edition. I just wish it had come with 5th edition's release rather than over a year down the track, and that around now we were getting a full campaign guide... but hopefully it will come! |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 13:38:27
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| Was it news that the Host Tower of the Arcane is back? I was surprised. Kinda just..."one day it reappeared and suddenly the Arcane Brotherhood showed up again". Once again, at the rate we're going its going to be 1350 DR soon in terms of "World State". I suppose in the Sword Coast PC game that came out the Host Tower needed to be there for some plot to work. I wonder how Bob feels about the Pirate King's climatic ending being undone. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 14:10:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Was it news that the Host Tower of the Arcane is back? I was surprised. Kinda just..."one day it reappeared and suddenly the Arcane Brotherhood showed up again". Once again, at the rate we're going its going to be 1350 DR soon in terms of "World State". I suppose in the Sword Coast PC game that came out the Host Tower needed to be there for some plot to work. I wonder how Bob feels about the Pirate King's climatic ending being undone.
It was new information to me, but I kind of expected it. Everything was building to a "we're going back to the way things were, just with new NPC's" theme. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 14:34:17
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| A little bit of background wouldn't hurt, though. I'm not even asking for much, just for something that isn't, as Seravin puts it, "one day it reappeared and suddenly the Arcane Brotherhood showed up again". The Sundering can't be the explanation to *every* change, or they might as well say ''screw it, we're rebooting''. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Nov 2015 14:35:06 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 14:52:51
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The book in itself looks nice to me, it is clean, concise, well laid out, had all the information you could need to run a bare bones campaign.
The big problem I have with the book, and reason I won't be buying it is the awful meta metaplot from 1380 onwards.
There are pages and pages in the first section of the book devoted to random, implausible, and inconsistent events occurring that just read like an expanded list of novel events. The arcane tower disappeared now it's back, sembia was shattered by wars now it has recovered and is a trading power again, liuiren was drowned now it's back, turmish suffered lots when the sea receded now after a bit of rain it's all fine. And these events all occur in less than a decade.
Book is nice enough, story is not. No money from me. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 14:56:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
A little bit of background wouldn't hurt, though. I'm not even asking for much, just for something that isn't, as Seravin puts it, "one day it reappeared and suddenly the Arcane Brotherhood showed up again". The Sundering can't be the explanation to *every* change, or they might as well say ''screw it, we're rebooting''.
Agreed. At the same time, is this intended to be one of those "Current Clack" kind of things? Questions raised for the DM to fill out as he sees fit, or is it a teaser for a future adventure module? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 15:42:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
A little bit of background wouldn't hurt, though. I'm not even asking for much, just for something that isn't, as Seravin puts it, "one day it reappeared and suddenly the Arcane Brotherhood showed up again". The Sundering can't be the explanation to *every* change, or they might as well say ''screw it, we're rebooting''.
Agreed. At the same time, is this intended to be one of those "Current Clack" kind of things? Questions raised for the DM to fill out as he sees fit, or is it a teaser for a future adventure module?
I think that leaving the majority of the changes unexplained, and just saying ''that's how it is'' is a bit too much blank to fill...
Besides, big events (and the Arcane Brotherhood's reappearance is one IMO) should have at least a little bit of story behind them. I can be ok with the Sundering handwaving the return of the gods, very few mortals can be aware of the details after all, but when it is very down to earth? C'mon. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 17:01:11
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Two things I noticed that I liked:
1) The mention that the gods are going back to doing what was originally described as their behavior: using visions and manifestations, rather than just popping in. The 2E god books provide a lot of these manifestations, but they've never really been used.
2) The divine power levels aren't mentioned. I actually liked, back in the day, the brief descriptions like "Greater Power of Gehenna" or "Lesser Power of Arborea" -- but that led to "let's stat up the gods!" and making them targets for those players that are obligated to fight anything with stats. It'll be nice to avoid the "everything that exists can be fought!" mantra and the pages and pages of nothing but stats.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 17:09:32
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The Gods are still targets, Tiamat is stated up in one of the APs, unlike in 2e and 3e, she just feels like powerful monster, not a God, so I'm not impressed. I liked Gods getting class levels.
A party of 20th level characters shouldn't be able to take on a God at all, a lesser avatar maybe,but not Tiamat in all glory. Even in 5e you should have to be epic, (level 21+) to fight Gods. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 19:05:58
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| I thought the Tiamat stats for 5e were only an Avatar? Maybe I misread it. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 23:45:32
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For what it's worth, io9 reviewed SCAG.
edited link (my bad, mea culpas all around) |
- Ryan |
Edited by - Rymac on 13 Nov 2015 00:42:23 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 23:59:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
For what it's worth, io9 reviewed SCAG.
I'm getting a blank page? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 00:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
http://io9.com/two-major-rpg-books-came-out-this-month-and-theyre-bot-1742001057
An extra c snuck its way into the link.
Thanks. I just finished reading the book and I can't say I agree with this review. I'm more inclined to agree with Murry Chang's comment on that review.
It wasn't supposed to be a crunch tome. Yes, it had crunch in it, and what it had was good. But the Realms needed an update, and not everything in the book can be found on a wiki.
I posted my thoughts on my G+ & Facebook profile, but I guess I'll copy/paste them here, for the benefit of readers:
quote:
As a Forgotten Realms fan, I give it an overall A+. The book gave a much craved update on the Post-Spellplague Realms, but did so in a very minimalist fashion. I'll always crave more details, naturally, because I love the Realms, I'll readily admit that. And while the book met every promised expectation I had from the promotional campaign and preview, some areas were met in a cool but "I'm trying to wow my teacher and barely meet the assignment's requirements at the same time," manner.
On the other hand, that minimalist approach leaves the world open for me as a DM to create whatever material I want to fill in those gaps, which I see as a win.
As for the crunch, I love the options. The Backgrounds are great, and I love the Classes, especially the Bladesinger. The Battlerager Armor is a nice addition, as well.
Overall, the book is a must have for anyone wanting to play in the current Realms. If you're playing your own game world, the book can provide some nice options, and great lore to inspire you in your own world building efforts, but you're just not going to get the full sticker price value out of it if you don't care about the Realms-specific content.
I really don't see griping about the suggested retail price as a real issue with Amazon providing it at a much cheaper price. Maybe I'm missing something, I do have a hard time putting myself in other people's shoes, but most people have access to Amazon, and can get it for a good discount if they really want it. If you're just a PC, I can see it not being worth the price for you in either case, but if you're a DM, there's tons you can pull from it. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 00:35:24
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| It was $26 on B&N, and being a member, I didn't have to pay for shipping. I love buying books on Amazon, especially when they're new and used deals. Anyway, the book is a disappointment in some ways, but it isn't terrible. We get updates, and while brief, they're better than nothing. I would prefer more detailed deity descriptions, but I'm not going to throw it across the room. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 04:48:49
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Just got my hands in the book.
At first glance, it's like a miniature FRCS with elements of Forgotten Realms Adventures.
Note: someone upthread mentioned the Knights of Myth Drannor have returned. This is true, but they are now a knightly order fighting for a cause. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 02:35:02
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There are few unmentioned regions, like Chondath, we have no idea if Chondath returned or is still in Abier screaming wait AO what about us!
Nathlan and it Capital of Nathlehk weren't mentioned either. Various important city states were mentioned.
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 13:13:33
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| Thanks for sharing |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 15:39:54
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| I'm still reading thru the deity section of the book, but I really like the way it's written. I am very impressed by the fact that the focus is very much on the worship of the deities, including specific mentions of things that aren't actual portfolios but tend to fall under their purview because of the portfolios. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 15:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm still reading thru the deity section of the book, but I really like the way it's written. I am very impressed by the fact that the focus is very much on the worship of the deities, including specific mentions of things that aren't actual portfolios but tend to fall under their purview because of the portfolios.
Agreed. The way worship of the more evil gods is presented in a "yes, they're evil, but not everyone that does homage to them is evil" way really helps make sense of things, too. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
