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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2018 :  10:36:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Drow using High Magic is also inconsistent with prior lore.



True, but the Miyeritari dark elves were known to be masters of High Magic, so it's not very unlikely that drow free from the Lolthite mentality, and with the guidance of a Kiira, could do it. Vhaeraunites doing High Magic out of the wazoo to allow Vhaeraun to enter Eilistraee's realm was weird, though (and an incredibly stupid plan, but I've already commented on that before).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 17 Aug 2018 19:00:55
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2018 :  04:13:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Even though it's not spelled out explicitly, I always felt that the intent of High Magic was that it was a gift of the Seldarine -- which is why prior editions ruled out drow use of it. One has to wonder why, if the drow had High Magic, they sat on it for thousands of years and never even tried to use it against the elves.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2018 :  20:25:52  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Lolthite didn't have it, the Eilistraeeans only acquired it in those novels, but the fact that the Vhaeraunites did have it, apparently, begs the question of why they didn't use it for their goals. We're talking about Lady Penitent, though, it's like both the author and editor went in without knowing the topic and without even giving a flying about the most basic form of respect for characters and lore that they *didn't create*, but didn't hesitate to crap on.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2018 :  23:57:02  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Veylandemar

Just chiming in on the Kiaransalee portion of the thread. Her removal from the Realms and the minds of her followers is a throwback to events in the second edition multiverse. It is heavily touched on by the Planescape adventures 'The Great Modron March' and 'Dead Gods', whereby as a precursor event to both adventures, Kiaransalee slew Orcus and stole the realm of Thanatos by the same means.
Orcus, at the time, was divine or semi-divine and Kiaransalee and her Crones struck all memory of his name from the minds of his followers, barring a few pertinent individuals.
Like most Grand Evils, he didn't exactly stay dead, but that's addressed in said adventures and I'll only go into detail if requested.

I did like the callback to said events and it was somewhat apt that Kiaransalee was ended by the means she herself employed against one of her greater rivals. But despite my enjoyment of the author honoring that particular snippet of lore, I too found representations of the gods to be jarring and conflicting with previous iterations.

~V



Good call Veylandemar, I'm a bigger Planescape fan than FR fan, so I absolutely remember that adventure. And yes, there were some fun parallels, but that was a deity slaying another deity, not mortals doing the deed. And even still, an aspect of Orcus survived and become Tenebrous, so the deed was not completed.

@Wooly - I guess I don't consider High Magic to be the province of any specific race, mainly because I don't see arcane magic to be a gift from the gods, but rather an ambient force that anyone can become a wielder of, provided they have the drive and intelligence to do so. I detest "chosen one" tropes, so I say screw it, if an orc, a spriggan, and a hyper-intelligent, mutated gelatinous cube all work hard at it and become archmages, they should be able to form their own circle and command these energies. Of course it should be so ultra-rare and rigorous that only the most skilled and determined wizards have a hope of controlling it, but I don't see any reason why it should be limited by race. Is this not what Karsus was trying to do with his "10th level" or "heavy" magic?

At any rate, I blasted through Ascendancy of the Last. Again, mixed feelings. I was expecting a very different direction for this book. After Eilistraee defeated Vhaeraunn in book 1 and assumed many of his traits (and followers), we next see her go up against Kiaransalee and her Crones in book 2. Since she won that matchup at the very end of the book, I thought we'd pick up book 3 with her starting to show some tendencies of Undeath and Vengeance. I figured Lolth's long game was to allow Eilistraee to defeat these other drow godlings, thinking she is getting stronger with each absorption, but actually becoming more abstracted, more dilute as she spreads out over multiple portfolios and loses her focus on what makes her the Dark Maiden. In book 3 we have Ghaunadar enter the fray and I thought, "Oh boy, she's going to win this fight as well and get all squishy and obsessed with rot!" Then, when Eilistraee is fractured among so many conflicting drives and directions, Lolth delivers the coup de grace.

But it didn't develop that way at all, as you all know. Instead, we have....

Drow Dark Elves now have brown skin and black hair....

Wow... 930ish pages, that's a long walk for... not much payoff. The onyx skin and white hair is such an iconic look. I actually (and I'm sure I'll catch some flack for this) prefer the purple skin look I've seen in several of the covers, simply because it's so exotic, otherworldly, fae. I'm not sure what the developers were thinking, I guess I don't want to get into it too much more for fear it might lead to some uncomfortable real-world parallels. Suffice to say, I was nonplussed, to say the very least.

Some other random thoughts:

There was mention of an earthquake in 1375 and Halaster's death. WTH? Did I miss that somewhere, or did it happen "off screen" in another product? I tend to forget at times that the novel line is not *THE* comprehensive story of the Realms, and when major developments like this happen outside of the books, it really takes me by surprise.

It's well known that the Seven Sisters can hear their name spoken anywhere in the world, as well as the next sentence or so following it. How are there not entire teams of Zhent or CotD apprentices assigned to do nothing but chant these names all day and night long simply to create "white noise" interference? I suppose the 7 must have developed some type of selective screening over time to instinctively know when it's important and when it's dross?

I really liked the Colleges again, I know I already said that in the review of the 2nd book, but I thought Lisa Smedman did a terrific job with developing Sshamath as one of the more interesting drow cities I've encountered since Homeland.

The Ghaunadarans were suitably disgusting, I thought she did a very effective job portraying how gross they were. I can't believe there are so many ooze subtypes. It actually got a bit ridiculous at times, much like the 5,000 dragon subspecies that Byers crammed into the Rage trilogy. More isn't always better, gimme the classics with just a few uniques sprinkled in. Going back to Ghaunadar, I don't like that one of his alternate names is The Elder Eye. That will always make me think of Tharizdun, or even Sauron, truth be told.

The Nightshadows were easily able to infiltrate several Houses of Llurth Dreier. Why didn't Ghaunadar immediately recognize these blasphemers and send a sign that Karas and his boys were posing as Ghaunadar clerics? I kid, I kid - but it's something we talked about not too long ago, and well, those who believe the deities are omniscient and nigh-infallible, there are just so many examples to the contrary. I think they are mostly incompetent buffoons, but YMMV.

I'll wrap it up here, mainly just because I'm tired of this trilogy. For it to end with Halisstra, whom I detest above nearly any character in the entire FR stable, decapitating Cavatina and Eilistraee/Qilue, it was almost more than I could take. It seems the entire point of these books was to remove Wendonai's taint from a large subset of the drow population, lighten their skin a few shades, and justify a great many more dark elves coming up to the surface to be part of newer stories going forward or to be a more common playable PC race.

Mental Note: Research this "Shevarash" the Black Archer. I'm intrigued...

Up next, I started in on RAS's The Orc King, got just a few pages in and realized this was a post-100 year time jump story. I said "Oh Hells No!" and put it down. There are still a boatload of late 1300s DR stories to read, so I have some skipping around to do. Until I can come up with a plan, I'll go back to the Dungeons standalone stories. Tonight I'll start Bruce Cordell's Stardeep.
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CTrunks
Acolyte

Canada
20 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  00:16:40  Show Profile Send CTrunks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, I'm gonna let the others potentially go on rants about how poorly thought out this whole, bizarre... plan for turning the few 'untainted' drow back into dark elves (dark elves who, apparently, don't have their darkvision anymore, judging by the reaction of those drow from Sshamath who were with Q'arlynd - and oh yeah, some of those dark elves are still underground) was, but The Orc King's prologue is the only bit set within the future. The rest of it follows shortly after the end of the short story from the Realms of the Elves (The Last Mythal short story anthology).
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  00:23:16  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, so, I have really *a lot* to say about this book, because while the others were horrible in their mistakes, this one beats them all. Before that, I'll answer to some of your points.

Re: High Magic, it is not just super magic capable of world-shaking feat. It is elf-only super magic (often in the form of rituals) that is capable of world-shaking feats, and as such, it is innately superior That said, in the past it has been used to draw power from the Seldarine themselves, so it is not purely arcane in nature.

Re: Halaster--killed off-screen in the 3e Undermountain handbook. As you can probably start seeing from LP, and this tidbit, all these changes are the preparation for the 4e Realms and the Spellplague. That said, Halaster has returned in 5e/post-Sundering, as he is like a lich with the whole Undermountain as his philactery, apparently.

Re: how weren't the false clerics noticed--Vhaeraun has clerics who pose as priestesses of Lolth (see Shakti in Starlights and Shadows). He shields their minds from Lolth. Perhaps Eilistraee took this power from him when taking his portfolio.

Before commenting, I'll write some updates on the status quo of the drow pantheon and some clarifications. I'm telling you what follows because this stuff isn't covered in novels, except some minor tidbits put there as an aside in a couple of the latest 5e novels. Oh, and if you want to see what Perkins told me about the purpose of the changes that LP brought to the drow, here's a link: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19597

1)Current status quo
Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and all the drow pantheon, have returned. Eilistraee currently has her portfolio (she actually even gained freedom in 5e), Vhaeraun has his own. Eilistraee is still a drow goddess, her followers still near entirely drow (I'll explain more below). The two siblings seem to have agreed to a truce--Ed says that they, personally, have even formed some kind of friendship. He also explained that, back in Sacrifice of the Widow, Eilistraee spared him and took his portfolio while imprisoning his sentience in the Weave, as part of a plan with Mystra. After their return, the two personally appeared to their followers, and their cults re-emerged very quickly (Eilistraee showed up under the walls of Waterdeep, and now some of her drow followers are trying to create a new community within it, with the support of the Harpers).

2)Ed's explanation
Ed also explained that neither Eilistraee nor Vhaeraun actually died, due to Mystra intervening. Smedman herself said that she didn't like what WotC was doing with Eilistraee, so (or so she said) she left loopholes for her survival and return (for example, in canon, it isn't really possible for a deity to die like at the end of Ascendancy of the Last, as an avatar. On top of that, the Crescent Blade had been shattered and lost its powers, becoming merely a manifestation of Wendonai, and no longer a weapon able to slay deities and destroy souls, as also proven by Cavatina's). Ed seems to have explanded on the possibility of survival of both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in his explanation.

So, basically, Mystra had managed to foresee the Spellplague. She knew that, after centuries of reckless spellcasting, the Weave was severly damaged, in need of some kind of "reboot", and had found that such a process had the potential to be catastrophic. Therefore, in the years before 1385, she planned for her survival, and that of her allied deities, or deities that she found valuable. Eilistraee's a long time ally, and given that Mystra strives for magic to be developed, including magical races like the drow, she isn't happy wiht them wasting their potential in petty conflict under Lolth, so it makes sense for her to help other drow gods.

So, when Eilistraee and Vhaeraun clashed, as Eilistraee trapped his sentience in the way, Mystra took care of him. When Qilué was killed while she was an avatar of sorts, Eilistraee herself wasn't killed, but the power/essence(?) that she had poured into Qilué was dragged into the Weave alongside Qilué's soul (the souls of Mystra's chosen are dragged into the Weave when they die) and there it remained, trapped for one century or so. After the Spellplague hit, things didn't go as Mystra expected: she was reduced to a vestige (and assumed dead), and Weave was stranded, making it impossible for Eilistraee's power to be returned to her until the Weave would be repaired.

During that century, Eilistraee couldn't function as a goddess, couldn't grant spells, but she could still manifest to people in the form of a floating mask surrounded by moonlight, able to communicate with them. About one century after, in 1487, when the Weave was made whole, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun both recovered their powers, and re-emerged whole. For Kiaransalee, as I said, it was revealed that her name wasn't actually forgotten, and that people kept praying to her.

3)Corellon and the transformed drow
The transformed drow (the one who were changed by the lifiting of Corellon's curse) were actually very few and basically irrelevant: they were only hundreds (that includes not just Eilistraee's followers, but also non-tainted drow in general). That amounts to a narrow part of Eilistraee's followers base. She, as a lesser goddess, has at least a few thousand followers, meaning that most of her people actually remained drow. In fact, after her return, as I mentioned, Eilistraee is still drow, as are most of her followers, and she has 0 interest in another round of uncursing. There was no sacrifice for such a trivial and superficial thing either (as it evident from the books), the Solars just say some really cruel things about that, tbh (I'll cover that below, tho). The transformed drow have been entirely ignored by WotC, like nearly everything that happens in these novels. Not that the dark elves would have an actual chance of making an impact. They are described more or less like wood elves, they would probably mix up with other Eilistraeean drow, or other elven communities, leading the restored "dark elves" entriely disappear or go unnoticed in the end. Smedman briefly uses them in a later book (and that's it), but she entirely omits their connection to Eilistraee, or their nature. She just has them as brown skinned, black haired elves calling themselves dark elves.

As for Corellon's role, he merely allowed the transformed drow into Arvandor. He also comes off as a major a*****e: for millennia he did absolutely nothing to help his daughter in her struggle against Lolth, and even as she was giving her all, he stood still. He only appeared at the very end, to grab a few souls and grant them access to Arvandor. After that, Corellon didn't do much to actively reach for the drow while his daughter was absent, and he surely didn't take her mantle, despite the symbolism hinting at that. After all, his solars, i.e. his voices, go as far as outright stating that the vast majority of drow are "unwilling" and to be cast down, and that all those who could be changed have already been, which is ridiculous (but I'll say more below). He also isn't even close to be a replacement for Eilistraee in that aspect. He just doesn't have the genuine care that his daughter has (in fact, he's been unjust and rather vain towards the drow as a race), and—most importantly—he doesn't have the millennia of shared history and battles that Eilistraee has with them, and that makes her unique in that regard.

That is also due to a fracture between his and his daughter's approach: Eilistraee wants the drow to take back their life and forge their path as *drow*, because that's what they were born as, simply themselves; Corellon wants to transform them into something that they aren't. Eilistraee sees "drow" as an identity, which she chose to share (she chose to be "one of them"); Corellon sees it as a curse. Father/daughter relationship is, in fact, described as that of allies, but strained.

During the 4e era, Corellon remained mostly his old self, as there was no remarkable even in which he clashed with Lolth (and no active effort to help the drow break free from her, or to actively reach for them, which is what Eilistraee does).

This whole matter of the deities just coming in the game to "win" the souls of the drow doesn't make sense either. It's the drow who choose who to worship, not the deities who win souls. No matter who would triumph in the "game", it would still be up to the drow whether to worship a deity, and which deity. Lolth's defeat wouldn't suddenly make the Lolthite good and turn towards Eilistraee; same when Corellon appeared. Just because he allowed some "purified" souls into his vip paradise doesn't mean that the drow would even bother with him (especially after millennia of absolute indifference towards them and his own daughter). That kind of thing can't be magicked up.

As for the transformation itself, setting aside the fact that it has gross implications, that it has 0 to do with Eilistraee (and even goes against all that she stands for as a character, which I'll clarify later), I don't see the point in it. It basically amounts to a change in skin color (they don't even have the benefit of being able to live under the sunlight. The drow can acquire adaptation to sunlight in as little as 10 years, which is nothing for them). No one had asked for it or wanted it. Being admitted into Arvandor? Why would they care to be in any other place but the afterlife that Eilistraee offers them—which sounds really good, btw. What's the point of Arvandor? Not to mention those who were instakilled, probably in horrible ways, when they were transformed within drow cities...

The real reason for this transformation was to make sure that no good *drow* would exist, because WotC had developed this obsession that Drizzt wasn't special enough apparently (you can also see it from Athans' reader's guide to the Drizzt books, in which he describes the whole Dark Seldarine, but entirely omits Eilistraee. In fact, I wonder if the misrepresentation of Eilistraee wasn't intentional, after all).

4)Demon taint
The Demon taint making the drow unredeemable, like those two angels said, is another thing that, like the faerzress addiction, Smedman pulled out of thin air. It is ridiculous, and ignores a whole history of "tainted" drow choosing to follow Eilistraee, or a different path, including Drizzt (and is even more puzzling when there are good chances that the "pure-blooded", already untainted, drow were likely Lolth followers as well--it had nothing to do with their ethics). Maybe that factor makes them dirty in the eyes of Corellon (who, once again, was so swift in dooming a whole race, including his daughter's followers, when she was at her lowest, and who didn't raise a finger to help her... ever) but not of Eilistraee. Not only that has never been the case (the drow have always had freedom of choice, and one would think that after more than 10k years, the taint would be so diluted to have no effect. Also, if tieflings have freedom of choice with their basically HALF devil heritage, you see the nonsense here...), but to even assume that Eilistraee--who reaches for all drow, who thinks that all of them can embrace a different path, who has given so much for that cause--would think that, is just stupid. Thankfully, 5e re-retconned this crap.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 20 Aug 2018 13:55:25
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  00:31:37  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The biggest offender in this novel is, IMHO, the concept of redemption that Smedman introduces. It's basically the Original Sin, and she associates it with a goddess that is diametrally opposed to that concept. In this, Smedman basically crushes the entire point of Eilistraee--it's the worst blow of them all.

Eilistraee's concept of redemption is, to me, beautiful. Her whole MO is all about gently luring the drow out of that prison, setting their spark alight. It's all about helping the dark elves to embark on a journey to experience all that they've been missing on in life; to rediscover the sheer joy of existence and of freely chasing their dreams; to see with their eyes and understand that things don't have to be like Lolth forces them to believe, but that another path exists and it leads to liberation and happiness. Over the course of this journey, she's there in all the important moments, she helps her "children" in various practical ways (especially to thrive on the surface) nurturing, protecting and teaching them life anew, comforting them when they feel defeated or alone (while always being careful to let them free to find their own way).

There's nothing about getting rid of taints, about curses and race-changes in this concept, it's all in understanding, choice, rebirth. Lady Penitent stripped all that of value, because, apparently, choosing to change wasn't enough for Smedman/WotC, there was the need to physically change and being "cleansed" in the eyes of Corellon.

Those novels basically reduced the idea of redemption to some obsession with undoing the drow equivalent of the Original Sin (with the difference that, in this case, it is a curse inflicted on the drow by Corellon). It's magicking up things that should be up to personal choice and growth. It also amounts to "redeem for being born as you", and that's not only utter crap, it is false and it is not Eilistraee. It comes out of nowhere and makes no sense, because Eilistraee doesn't care--and has never cared--about the curse or phyisical appearance of her people.

As I mentioned above, on the contrary, she has a very positive attitude about the matter. The "curse" is now no longer such, but part of who the drow are, of their identity, and Eilistraee acts as a mother goddess to the drow as a whole race to help them flourish again—as drow--not force them to change their race. If she wanted to remove the curse, she'd just have worked towards it. However, she never made a move, she has never cared. In over 10k+ in-universe years (and 20+ years of existing in the published Realms), she never acted on that (not even a tiny bit of effort), never nudged any of her followers towards it, never spoke about that, not even once. Instead, Eilistraee embraced the curse so she would be closer to her people and show them that joy can be found even amidst suffering and despair. And rightfully so, because why should someone who just so happened to be born as a drow, be forced to give up on who they are just to be able to live decently?

Picture any drow who grew up under Lolth (and most of them are not nobles, priestesses etc... they are not nearly as bad, and they do all the bleeding), after all the abuse they receive, being finally rescued and given a new chance, only to be told that they have to be "redeemed for their drow-ness" first, or it's a no-no... that would never lead any of them to choose a different path. That's absolutely not what they need, but to be given value for who they are in their entirety, and that's what Eilistraee does--she understands their struggle and desire of a bette life.

That said, the nastiness associated with this transformation goes even beyond that. The "uncursing" was actually a violence and carried really ugly implications. Basically, those who underwent the transformation were forced to do so (the casters themselves are shown to be horrified). They were forced to give up the bodies they were born with, what they were, and the reason for that was that Corellon wouldn't accept them unless they renounced to their identity as drow. Basically, it showed them that their choice in life didn't matter, to be accepted they had to give up part of their identity—which is the exact contrary of all that Eilistraee teaches (even though, perhaps, the fact that only a small part of those drow were transformed, and the fact that Eilistraee withdrew her guidance from the spell, could be Smedman's way of sneaking in a way to control damage).

Additionally, Smedman decided that the vast majority of the drow (again, the very people whose battle, curse, and suffering Eilistraee chose to share) would be abandoned to their fate, in order to force a handful of the followers of the Dark Maiden to change their appearance, because according to this author, that was the goal all along--and that is infinitely far from being true.

On top of that, the reason provided was "lol, the rest is unwilling and unredeemable, 'cuz reasons". As I said, that is very clearly something that not only would never even cross Eilistraee's mind, because it would defeat all that she has ever believed in, but also makes 0 sense, given that most of Eilistraee's followers came (and still come, present era) from the group of drow that was labeled as "unwilling/tainted" in those novels, and given the existence of children&the likes (who can never be "unwilling"). Even if we assume that this is Corellon's (and not Eilistraee's) stance, the author did a crappy job at clearing it out.

Also, those angels, who are the voice of Corellon, spew some truly cruel stuff there, especially the part when one of them says that, essentially, Eilistraee had exhausted her use in Corellon's eyes, and that most of the drow are and the goddess too were a necessary sacrifice to change the skin color of few of them (and yes, I'm aware that in canon the character that says that is supposed to be the voice of reason, counterpart of the more emotional solar. However, there was absolutely no logic in what he said, and his words were flat out cruel). That was a major WTF moment, and the messages that come out from how this scene is painted are really f***d up (like change being not a choice, but some kind of purification raining from on high, or goodness being tied up to physical appearance, or that no matter what your choices are, you won't be acceptable unless you conform to an arbitrary idea of what is good and acceptable—which is what Corellon does with Eilistraee's followers).

WotCs were pushing their 4e version of the drow, they commissioned Smedman to write these books, and used Eilistraee to try to force their idea of "unredeemably evil drow except for Drizzt", even when that goddess represents the very contrary of that. It's also the reason why, even though I'm really happy that Eilistraee (and all the drow gods) are back, I really, really want a novel that describes their return, if only to show the true face of the Dark Maiden.

------------

Just for a comparison, look at Elaine's portrayal of Eilistraee and her approach to "redeeming" drow.

Eilistraee helps Liriel a great deal in her journey, but she does that delicately, even if with genuine warmth. The goddess helps the young drow to open her heart to the beauty of life, to sisterhood/brotherhood (for example, the first teleport spell cast by Liriel directs her to a group of "moondancers", and they are the first to welcome the young drow on the surface, and to show her genuine affection, which Liriel finds tempting) to caring for other people, and accepting other people caring for her. The Dark Maiden helps Liriel to keep traveling, because the journey is the only way for the young priestess to open her eyes and break her chains.

In many key moments, it can be seen how, never invasively, Eilistraee provides Liriel with all she needs to keep following her heart. For example, it's the Dark Maiden's song that helps Liriel realize how to achieve the goal of her journey, to feel the rune that she needs to carve in the Yggdrasil so that her own magic could work on the surface. When Liriel is on the surface, Eilistraee makes her presence felt (at one time, the goddess herself dances with the drow) to let her know that she's not alone. Another beautiful example can be found when Fyodor is on the verge of death. At that point, Liriel is so close to getting rid of Lolth (with whom she had struck a pact in exchange for power and help), yet she feels crushed because she has to summon the Spider Queen to save Fyodor, thus being forced to renew her allegiance. Instead, at that time, Eilistraee intervenes and makes Liriel glow with her own magic to bring Fyodor back from the brink of death, allowing the drow to fully embrace her own path, free from Lolth. As Elaine herself put it, to Liriel, despite her choice of becoming a priestess of Mystra, Eilistraee still symbolizes the sheer joy of existence, beauty, affection that she discovered in her journey to the surface--and that's what this goddess is supposed to be to the drow.

The interesting part is that Eilistraee's interaction with Liriel is very subtle, it's never intrusive or overt, it doesn't take much space, but in those few moments, Elaine really nails what Eilistraee is about (infinitely better than Sedman did in 4 whole books), and she delivers it perfectly.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 20 Aug 2018 03:11:05
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Hyperion
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  10:14:55  Show Profile Send Hyperion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Irennan's thoughts, but I wish the idea of the dark elves would have been used better, creating a whole new subrace both in the Underdark and the Surface, maybe of Seldarine' followers.
The basic problem of many Realms book is that Greenwood was not consulted by the authors, and so basically each authors does his own thing and there is no central guidance. Yet the problem exist also with Greenwood himself, because he has written books which do not really fit with a D&D environment (for example Shandril's saga, where teleport should have made the whole plot absurd).
The same problem exists with the gods, which are depicted in a wholly different and contradictory way by different authors.
Basically the novels line should have been done differently right from the start, with Greenwood having the last word about what was in line in the Realms and what was not but also the TSR crew checking his consistence with D&D rules. But they did not care enough to do it and probably the general public was not refined enough to care either.
One of the first trilogies, the Moonshae, was not supposed to be set in the Realms at all and it is quite clear.
Probably the Dragonlance line was on average a bit better for internal consistency, but other settings (for example Mystara) had the same lack of consistency in the novels, with each author going his own way.
To me many Realms books just feel like general fantasy books the author fit into the Realms ex post by adding some random names, without bothering to know the setting very well. For some aspects, this is true even for Salvatore, which clearly did not read at all the available supplements for some places where he set his books (Calimsham and Calimport, foremost). I think only a few authors, like Elaine Cunningham and Richard Lee Byers, really did their homework and wrote books which really seems to have been conceived and written as Forgotten Realms books.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  13:51:13  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hyperion
I think only a few authors, like Elaine Cunningham and Richard Lee Byers, really did their homework and wrote books which really seems to have been conceived and written as Forgotten Realms books.



Meh - I can name at least one greivous lapse in Realms' lore consistency from each of those authors.

Generally though, some authors better than others; I think Ed is the best at it by virtue of it is HIS Realms and the man is an epic world builder (your note on the lack of teleportation magic in the Shandril saga -- it actually defies all logic as they DO use teleportation in Crown of Fire to go back and forth to the Citadel of the Raven, twice, sigh, just never to go to Silverymoon).

To me, Jeff Grubb/Kate Novak get the Realms the best as Jeff was the Realms editor from the OGB era...but I'm sure even he probably has errors to existing Realms lore in his novels if you pick hard enough at it...


Edited by - Seravin on 20 Aug 2018 13:54:54
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
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Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  13:54:34  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With something as large and complex as the Realms, some errors are kind of inevitable. However, things like the crap going on in LP are gross and avoidable after having done as little as skimming through the source material.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 20 Aug 2018 13:55:33
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
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Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  13:57:57  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep - you can tell by this point in the novel line, no one gave a crap about continuity or editing to make sure the lore wasn't a mess. It shows with LP in particular!
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Hyperion
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  16:03:34  Show Profile Send Hyperion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suspect the problem is no one ever gave a crap :) except for the most die hard fans :)
If you play in the Realms, you can still make up your own solutions/stories. Some however are quite difficult, as the mentioned example in Crown of Fire, which does not make any sense indeed. You could maybe assume teleportation is always dangerous and therefore Shandril was willing to risk it only when, frustrated and enraged by the constant attacks, she decided the only way was to deliver a fatal blow to the Zhent, but is a stretch at best.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  16:11:30  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only way to solve it would be to have it written/stated from the start that portals work but teleportation spells don't work because Spellfire would involuntarily snatch up the magic involved in the teleport spell (but a portal Shandril is able to keep from being destroyed by Spellfire). However...that wasn't how it was written. Sigh. They teleport back and forth from CotR and it is clearly a spell scroll not a portal. It doesn't work. It was a huge flub in Crown of Fire. Someoene said Ed has written about why they didn't use teleports to Silverymoon somewhere..I don't think I ever saw it though. Any scribes want to link or copy/paste? Was it just a "test" for Shandril? (that obviously failed given the ending of Hand of Fire)
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2394 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  14:41:35  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Hyperion
I think only a few authors, like Elaine Cunningham and Richard Lee Byers, really did their homework and wrote books which really seems to have been conceived and written as Forgotten Realms books.



We try, but we do miss things now and then.

Not making excuses, but adding another POV to this discussion: One of the sources of continuity issues is that the rules and lore change over time, and writers can't retrofit their novels to take the new rules into account.

For example, it used to be that drow magic or magic items faded on the surface when daylight hit. That was changed, which might puzzle 3.5 players who are reading books written under 2nd Ed rules. I have been challenged for using the terms "forest elf" and "green elf" interchangably, but back when I was writing, they were interchangable. Someone who knows nothing of the Realms before 4.0 would be very puzzled by Elfshadow and Evermeet, not to mention the Counselors & Kings trilogy, because wait--isn't Evermeet in the Feywild, and isn't Halruaa underwater?

The Realms was a living, changing world for a long time. It was pretty much inevitable that not everything written along that time span would line up perfectly.

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 21 Aug 2018 15:02:40
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

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Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  14:53:30  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hyperion

I suspect the problem is no one ever gave a crap :) except for the most die hard fans :).



I can state without reservation that this is not true.

When I started writing in the Realms, I read everything. Every novel, every game product, the magazines, and all the comic books I could get my hands on. I'm a history geek, and I considered the novels to be historical fiction, with the lore as "historical fact." My first editor, James Lowder, once said I knew the Realms as well as anyone but Ed and Jeff. And if I had a question, I picked up the phone and called someone. In those early years, I spent a lot of time talking to Jim Lowder, Ed Greenwood, Bob Salvatore, and Stephen Schend.

In my early years, editing was extensive and multi-layered. It started at the outline stage. After an outline was reviewed by the editor, it would go to the game department. Several people would go through it and make comments, which the editor consolidated and passed along. The first draft of the manuscript would also be reviewed for continuity, both by the fiction editor and the game department. Game designer Stephen Schend went over the first draft of Elfsong in meticulous detail. Not just for rules and lore, but movement stats. One example: Elaith Craulnober was running across the roofs of Waterdeep and jumped from one building to another. Stephen got out the Waterdeep maps, calculated the distance, checked Elaith's stats, and concluded that yup, that worked. And it WAS doable because before I turned in the manuscript, I studied the Waterdeep maps, calculated the distance, and checked Elaith's stats. That was standard operating procedure at the time.

Things did get a little looser as the years went on and the books and lore proliferated. At some point, the outlines and manuscripts stopped going to the game department. I can't vouch for anything that happened over the past ten years, because I wasn't involved, but I worked with a lot of people who cared a whole hell of a lot about what they wrote and what they published.

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 21 Aug 2018 15:06:58
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
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Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  15:42:31  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Any thoughts on Lady Penitent, Elaine? Like many others, I really disliked it and the events after it.

Regarding continuity / editing for existing rules and lore - as others have said you got it right and are a shining example of what to do when writing a book in a shared world in my opinion. James had the right answer. Thank you for your effort back in the day, it showed in your work.

My only tiny nitpicky curmudgeon uber-nerdy issue with your first Realms novel I've already raised in this very thread so no need to rehash! The "need" to keep Kymil Nimesin alive in Elfshadow to prove Arilyn was innocent - despite the existence of detect lie, speak with dead, and similar divination magic that would have been available to any major Harper trial held on the matter (and Bran and Khelben testimony as Master Harpers at the time would not have been dismissed either; they knew she was innocent and Kymil guilty of regicide and ~20 Harper murders).
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

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Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  18:39:44  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Any thoughts on Lady Penitent, Elaine? Like many others, I really disliked it and the events after it.




I didn't read this trilogy. I stopped reading most of the novels when I stopped writing for the Realms. In general, though, I only recommend books. If I don't like a novel, I don't discuss it.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  20:40:02  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham


I can state without reservation that this is not true.

When I started writing in the Realms, I read everything. Every novel, every game product, the magazines, and all the comic books I could get my hands on. I'm a history geek, and I considered the novels to be historical fiction, with the lore as "historical fact." My first editor, James Lowder, once said I knew the Realms as well as anyone but Ed and Jeff. And if I had a question, I picked up the phone and called someone. In those early years, I spent a lot of time talking to Jim Lowder, Ed Greenwood, Bob Salvatore, and Stephen Schend.

In my early years, editing was extensive and multi-layered. It started at the outline stage. After an outline was reviewed by the editor, it would go to the game department. Several people would go through it and make comments, which the editor consolidated and passed along. The first draft of the manuscript would also be reviewed for continuity, both by the fiction editor and the game department. Game designer Stephen Schend went over the first draft of Elfsong in meticulous detail. Not just for rules and lore, but movement stats. One example: Elaith Craulnober was running across the roofs of Waterdeep and jumped from one building to another. Stephen got out the Waterdeep maps, calculated the distance, checked Elaith's stats, and concluded that yup, that worked. And it WAS doable because before I turned in the manuscript, I studied the Waterdeep maps, calculated the distance, and checked Elaith's stats. That was standard operating procedure at the time.

Things did get a little looser as the years went on and the books and lore proliferated. At some point, the outlines and manuscripts stopped going to the game department. I can't vouch for anything that happened over the past ten years, because I wasn't involved, but I worked with a lot of people who cared a whole hell of a lot about what they wrote and what they published.



Wow. I think that forcing an author to stay true to every *game* detail is somewhat of a limitation, but it sure does show a deep level of care for the IP. While I won't complain about the stat-checks going away, it's sad that the care for continuity went away with that.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Mirtek
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595 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  21:05:46  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The Lolthite didn't have it, the Eilistraeeans only acquired it in those novels, but the fact that the Vhaeraunites did have it, apparently, begs the question of why they didn't use it for their goals. We're talking about Lady Penitent, though, it's like both the author and editor went in without knowing the topic and without even giving a flying about the most basic form of respect for characters and lore that they *didn't create*, but didn't hesitate to crap on.

It's also problematic when compared to the only remotely similiar high magic spell, that was used to banish Moander.

IIRC it required a subdued avatar of the deity as one of the material components and the sacrifice of the involved high mages.

In the novel it was kind of like "He, do you have anything to do in the next 15 minutes? No? Great, how about slaying a deity?"
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Hyperion
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2018 :  11:52:42  Show Profile Send Hyperion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Elaine for the detailed answer. There are many good books in the Realms novel line and I've read most of them, and I can hardly tell I disliked many of them. Even those which did not feel much "Realmsian" to me were not necessarily bad books. I also liked Once around the Realms, for the pastiche it was :) and I know my opinion is rather minoritarian.
What I want to specify here is that my comment was not to tell there are many "bad" Realms book, but rather that there are many books which are only incidentally set in the Realms, but they could have been set in any other fantasy world. They lack details on the Realms to make them good Realms book, even if they may be good book or at least "not too bad" books in other aspects.
You say they were checked for consistency and I believe it, but probably they were not checked enough for "significant use of the setting details", which is clear only for some authors, like you, and much less for others.
For example I liked much the books of the Maztica trilogy but it felt a bit like it could have placed in any other fantasy world with an european-like culture invading an aztec-like culture, and Helm in fact was depicted as quite different from other descriptions of him in Greenwood or others material. The author created a good story, but he did not have at the time an in depht knowledge of the setting, and in fact his Moonshae trilogy too was not supposed to be set in the Realms, originally.
Many Realms books do not have much Realms in them, even if they may be good books.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2018 :  14:38:11  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My book that seems so out of place is the Night Parade...in Calimsham of all places..but could have been any city and doesn't feel like it belongs in the Realms at all. Not a book I loved and not one I felt had any flavour of the Realms in it.
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VikingLegion
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USA
483 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2018 :  20:49:49  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The biggest offender in this novel is, IMHO, the concept of redemption that Smedman introduces. It's basically the Original Sin, and she associates it with a goddess that is diametrally opposed to that concept. In this, Smedman basically crushes the entire point of Eilistraee--it's the worst blow of them all.

Eilistraee's concept of redemption is, to me, beautiful. Her whole MO is all about gently luring the drow out of that prison, setting their spark alight. It's all about helping the dark elves to embark on a journey to experience all that they've been missing on in life; to rediscover the sheer joy of existence and of freely chasing their dreams; to see with their eyes and understand that things don't have to be like Lolth forces them to believe, but that another path exists and it leads to liberation and happiness. Over the course of this journey, she's there in all the important moments, she helps her "children" in various practical ways (especially to thrive on the surface) nurturing, protecting and teaching them life anew, comforting them when they feel defeated or alone (while always being careful to let them free to find their own way).

There's nothing about getting rid of taints, about curses and race-changes in this concept, it's all in understanding, choice, rebirth. Lady Penitent stripped all that of value, because, apparently, choosing to change wasn't enough for Smedman/WotC, there was the need to physically change and being "cleansed" in the eyes of Corellon.

Those novels basically reduced the idea of redemption to some obsession with undoing the drow equivalent of the Original Sin (with the difference that, in this case, it is a curse inflicted on the drow by Corellon). It's magicking up things that should be up to personal choice and growth. It also amounts to "redeem for being born as you", and that's not only utter crap, it is false and it is not Eilistraee. It comes out of nowhere and makes no sense, because Eilistraee doesn't care--and has never cared--about the curse or phyisical appearance of her people.

As I mentioned above, on the contrary, she has a very positive attitude about the matter. The "curse" is now no longer such, but part of who the drow are, of their identity, and Eilistraee acts as a mother goddess to the drow as a whole race to help them flourish again—as drow--not force them to change their race. If she wanted to remove the curse, she'd just have worked towards it. However, she never made a move, she has never cared. In over 10k+ in-universe years (and 20+ years of existing in the published Realms), she never acted on that (not even a tiny bit of effort), never nudged any of her followers towards it, never spoke about that, not even once. Instead, Eilistraee embraced the curse so she would be closer to her people and show them that joy can be found even amidst suffering and despair. And rightfully so, because why should someone who just so happened to be born as a drow, be forced to give up on who they are just to be able to live decently?

Picture any drow who grew up under Lolth (and most of them are not nobles, priestesses etc... they are not nearly as bad, and they do all the bleeding), after all the abuse they receive, being finally rescued and given a new chance, only to be told that they have to be "redeemed for their drow-ness" first, or it's a no-no... that would never lead any of them to choose a different path. That's absolutely not what they need, but to be given value for who they are in their entirety, and that's what Eilistraee does--she understands their struggle and desire of a bette life.

That said, the nastiness associated with this transformation goes even beyond that. The "uncursing" was actually a violence and carried really ugly implications. Basically, those who underwent the transformation were forced to do so (the casters themselves are shown to be horrified). They were forced to give up the bodies they were born with, what they were, and the reason for that was that Corellon wouldn't accept them unless they renounced to their identity as drow. Basically, it showed them that their choice in life didn't matter, to be accepted they had to give up part of their identity—which is the exact contrary of all that Eilistraee teaches (even though, perhaps, the fact that only a small part of those drow were transformed, and the fact that Eilistraee withdrew her guidance from the spell, could be Smedman's way of sneaking in a way to control damage).



Well put, and I particularly admire your analogy to Original Sin. I wasn't even thinking that deep/metaphysical, but rather focusing on the abominable overall message that "Goodness is a few shades lighter." With inclusivity (racial/gender/orientation/etc.) in gaming being such a hot-button item right now, this book stands out even more glaringly as being shockingly tone deaf. I guess it's a good thing the trilogy is a decade old and not likely to have anyone (but us weirdos) talking about it, it's the kind of thing WotC would want to take a mulligan on.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 01 Sep 2018 21:24:07
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2018 :  21:14:03  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I feel like I've been away for a long time! I finished Stardeep several days ago. This book was outstanding. Cordell definitely has his own fantasy vibe and sensibilities, and it's probably not for everyone. In fact, in my own review of Darkvision I stated that his magi-tek/crystal "cybernetic" enhancements just weren't working for me. But here in Stardeep we see perhaps even more sci-fi elements and terminology - the containment well, Cynosure: a sentient defense system reminiscent of HAL 9000, and so on. But he pulled it off magnificently, IMO.

This whole "Dungeons being used as prisoners for elder evil beings" theme seems to repeat a bit in FR. Not that I mind the trope, just an observation.

The characters were extremely unique and interesting. I liked Gage's demon gauntlets, even if they were more than a bit reminiscent of Vampire Hunter D. Kiril, a character I found only marginally interesting in the previous book, really grew on me here. The story of the slaughter that led her to her alcoholic ways was tragic and powerful. Delphe was pretty cool too, I wonder if her name was inspired by the Oracle at Delphi, seems reasonable even though Telarian is the one with prophetic sight.

Speaking of Telarian, his descent into madness was extremely satisfying. There's nothing scarier than a villain who firmly believes he's the hero doing the right thing. Telarian has that Tony Stark massive ego, wherein he, and only he, can save everyone from themselves - but he just ends up making everything so much worse.

Angul/Nis were show-stealers. Nis is kind of the Danny DeVito to Angul's Schwarzenegger - comprised of all the leftovers when the purity, righteousness, and dedication to duty was siphoned out. But yet Nis is still massively powerful - his cold logic and emotional detachment insulate his wielder against all doubt, a perfect counterpart to Angul's crusaderlike zealousness.

A monk named Raidon Kane? Going to have to dock a few points for that - both first name and surname. Very cool character, but that name. C'mon Bruce...

The salt liches underneath Stardeep were a super cool touch. As was the very Lovecraftian vibe of Xxiphu rising up to take over the world. I also really enjoyed how Kiril simply couldn't resist the drug that is Angul at the end, even though she knew it would be better for both parties if they parted ways. Flawed protagonists are usually so much more interesting and things are set up nicely for the Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy, even though I won't get there for quite some time.

I've since moved on to finish the Dungeons series and am nearly done with Crypt of the Moaning Diamond. Review on Monday possibly?


Edited by - VikingLegion on 08 Sep 2018 13:28:56
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VikingLegion
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Posted - 01 Sep 2018 :  21:17:36  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CTrunks

So, I'm gonna let the others potentially go on rants about how poorly thought out this whole, bizarre... plan for turning the few 'untainted' drow back into dark elves (dark elves who, apparently, don't have their darkvision anymore, judging by the reaction of those drow from Sshamath who were with Q'arlynd - and oh yeah, some of those dark elves are still underground) was, but The Orc King's prologue is the only bit set within the future. The rest of it follows shortly after the end of the short story from the Realms of the Elves (The Last Mythal short story anthology).



Good info, thanks.

Re-shuffling reading order again :)
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VikingLegion
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Posted - 08 Sep 2018 :  13:24:21  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I feel like I'm falling behind! I've since finished two more books since the last post a week ago. Seeing as there were no comments regarding Stardeep, I'll just move on to the first of the two:

Crypt of the Moaning Diamond is the first novel by Rosemary Jones. It's a little bit light on Realms lore but it appears she made a sincere effort, at least as far as the region it is set in. I found the the cultural information on Procampur to be very interesting, their mannerisms, dedication to politeness and duty, the strict caste of a city where your standing in the hierarchy is dictated openly by the color of your roof shingles. She did a very good job bringing the "character" of the region out. I did a little digging into Procampur and found out this story takes place in the mid-1200s DR. I wouldn't have known that otherwise, as this story seemed to take place a little bit in a void of its own. A simple **Chapter 1: Tsurlagol 1246 DR** location/date blurb would've been a really nice touch. In fact, I think all Realms books should start in that manner to immediately let the reader know where, and more importantly, when they are.

Like a few other books I've mentioned, this one suffered from a single group PoV with no (or too few) cutaways. Also the language was surprisingly simplistic at times, like describing an enemy as "a bad guy with big, mean guards." I think this was done deliberately, as the main protagonist, Ivy, is a farmgirl turned mercenary. She mentions several times she just wants to make enough money to fix the hole in her barn roof, so I have to believe that was done on purpose to play up Ivy's rustic and unsophisticated upbringing. The way her personality clashed with the stuffy, ultra-proper Procampuran officer Sanval was amusing. There were a lot of very eccentric characters - a half-orc and a genasi that are step sisters (same father, VERY different mothers!), the dwarf who is obsessed with his pet dog, and so on. They were quirky and odd, and took a little while to grow on me, but I definitely liked them by the end.

The bugbear poets were an interesting choice....

All in all it was an ok book, nothing anyone would consider essential to the Realms, but I enjoyed it for what it was. Since then I've already finished The Orc King, I'll try to get to that tomorrow.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 08 Sep 2018 13:31:00
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VikingLegion
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Posted - 09 Sep 2018 :  13:09:03  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Orc King - good story overall but I do have some specific critiques:

I didn't care for the start which was 100 years in the post-Spellplague future. I hate it when TV shows open up with a scene, something dramatic happens, then it fades to black with a line that says "2 weeks earlier" or whatever before going to the main episode. It's a completely unnecessary gimmick, just start at the beginning. Also the ultra-racist orc-hunting band of ethnic cleansers - did they need to be so obviously modeled after a despicable real-world organization whose name I'll not mention? These humans, elves, and dwarves dedicated to destroying all orcs, even (particularly!) peaceful ones wear hoods, robes, and call themselves the Casin Cu Calas, or the "Triple C."

Alustriel - I've said it before and I'll say it again, I like RAS's depiction of her better than Greenwood's. I know that sounds odd, being that EG is the creator, but I feel similarly about Lynn Abbey's Simbul. Ed's Sisters are essentially the same character with minor deviances, the other authors bring out better nuance. RAS's Alustriel has a much more regal aspect.

Sunset and Innovindil's big scene was hard to read. I had such strongly mixed feelings - I wanted them to escape because I really dig the characters. But at the same time I recognized how important it was for the orcs to get a win in order to establish credibility as proper villains. The bad guy's plots have to succeed from time to time or they become little more than incompetent clowns. So, even as I was reading the scene, I was cheering for RAS not to pull any punches, to make this end how it needs to end, but dreading it all the while.

Wulfgar's goodbye felt like a real goodbye. Is he being written out of the Drizzt universe to clear the way for Drizzt/Cattie? Is he being sent away to spin off into other side-tales of Icewind Dale? Or is he being put on temporary hiatus so that he may gather a large tribe and someday come thundering out of the North with an army of berserkers to save the day as an unexpected reinforcement in some future engagement? I guess only time will answer that question.

So Cattie is a mage now, I guess. I've always felt the Companions of the Hall could've used a bit more diversity. Sure, Regis has thief skills, but the rest are basically just warriors mainly. They have obvious style differences, of course, but no spellcasters among them. Drizzt's ranger side doesn't really shine through to me all that much aside from some occasional tracking. Guen could be seen as an Animal Companion, but being a magically summoned entity, anyone could do the same as long as they possess the onyx figurine. It makes me think of a Joss Whedon interview I saw before Avengers 2. He was so excited to bring in the Scarlet Witch character, because before that, all his protagonists were "punchy heroes" (Captain America, Hulk, Thor) and Wanda finally gave him someone to explore some other forms of interesting combat.

So, back to Cattie. She went from young tomboy to devastating archer with the introduction of Taulmaril. RAS must've gotten bored with that at some point so he gave her Khazid'hea and she became a very good (but not great) swordswoman. Now she has an injured hip and loaned out her bow, so I guess that's Bob's way of saying he feels the character has stagnated and needs a new path. Enter Alustriel and her offer to tutor Cat as a mage. She handles herself very well with a wand in the first battle (aside from blasting herself in the foot once!), and now thanks to Drizzt scavenging a robe from Jack the Gnome, she already has a magnificent (probably overpowered) magical garment to start her career. If I know Salvatore, I'm sure she'll be capable of dueling Manshoon to a standstill by the next book.

Criticisms aside, this book did do something rather amazing - make me feel sympathy for orcs. There's the obvious Obould plotline that's been running for awhile now; how he wants to carve out a more civilized empire for his people. But you know what was even more important than that? The short scene with the two orc sentries out on patrol, gathering firewood. They gripe about their wives scolding them, complain about typical soldier duties, and so on right before an elven arrow takes one through the throat and the other is cut down by sword. That one little snippet did more to humanize them (if that makes sense) than all the rest.

The climactic scene with Bruenor and Obould staring each other down, unsure of what will come next after unexpectedly helping each other, was really tense and well done.

Up next, I grabbed book one of the citadels, Neversfall.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2018 :  10:05:56  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not really dealt with much, but my understaning from D&D mechanics and previous novels is that magic use is not something you stumble into at middle age when you break your hip. Rather you have a gift for the art that is recognized early and you go on to apprentice in your teens with a wizard. Cattie-Sue..I mean Cattie-Brie being good at everything she tries and having no discernable character flaws or interesting traits makes her the worst for me. And yes, I'm sure Bob just wanted to bring in some magic-use to his core character base who are all fighters (Regis barely thieves in any of the books, his hook in the beginning was more the Ruby to charm people than it was to climb walls and detect/disarm traps or backstab with his "mace" which why would he even be a thief with a mace?).

I wasn't a fan of Orc King, and I view it as Bob flexing his power to make the Realms different than intended, as I can't say that Ed's vision would include humanized orcs trading with the good races. Seems a bit shoe-horned Real World politics thurst into the Realms for my tastes, which wouldn't be the first time he's done this with his priest of Selune child molesters nonsense.
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CTrunks
Acolyte

Canada
20 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2018 :  13:53:25  Show Profile Send CTrunks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dunno, a thief with a mace could make sense. It's the same concept as an orc thief; you whack 'em on the head, then take their stuff while they're unconscious.

I do agree that turning Cattie-Brie from a warrior to a mage did come out of nowhere, and doesn't really go anywhere. Honestly, I gotta wonder if the decision of doing the Spellplague (the "Great Nonsense") caused a change in plans from what might have been planned for Cattie-Brie and Drizzt. Likewise, I think Wulfgar leaving was another change that might not have been planned immediately, but was done to write him out before the Great Nonsense could occur.

My bigger problem with the book is more of a hindsight thing, and something I can't really... explain without spoilers for later books. At the time, though, and even on its own, I do like the idea of Many-Arrows; trying to civilize a group of orcs isn't, necessarily, a bad thing to me. Yeah, it feels like a decision that was made because World of WarCraft was, at the time, stupid popular, but it's not an awful idea. And I honestly thought that the conflict between the two factions of orcs - those who want to continue to get their murder and pillage on, versus those that see the potential to improve their lives and focus on long-term goals over short-term gains - was an interesting one to me. It's a visionary fighting against generations of tradition, all while worrying about their neighbors whose toes have been viciously stepped on. If given a few generations, it could have some real potential, and signal the start of change for their people as a whole.

Plus, the Ondonti were once a thing, so it's not like there was zero precedent for 'good' orcs in the Realms. But it was probably also because of WoW (and WarCraft 3 before it).

I also think it's something kinda mirrored with Tos'un Armgo, though it was much more internal. He started off - in this book, anyway - as someone who was focused only on his survival, and was given the option between the easy path (taking advantage of the orcs of Clan Ggruch for chaos and lulz, even though he really hated the whole lot of them by that point), or the harder path (working with the elves from the Moonwood, even though there was a risk he'd have to face the consequences for being involved in this whole mess). And in the end, he chose the harder path, and apparently proved himself to the others. It was another thing that had potential.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2018 :  14:11:37  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I appreciate the attempt at adding nuance to the orcs, it makes the narrative including them more interesting, and it opens up the opportunity for stories that don't just include them as mere cannon fodder. Plus, @Seravin, I'd say that it is in line with Ed's take on "evil" races: if he added entirely different faiths and cultures to the drow, why not the orcs? Also, if orc cultures/subraces like the Ondonti exist, if the orcs could successfully coexist with the humans in Thesk after the whole Tuigan invasion thing, it's not much of a stretch to say that something like Many Arrows could come to be.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 12 Sep 2018 17:25:50
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2018 :  17:18:27  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CTrunks
But it was probably also because of WoW (and WarCraft 3 before it).



Ding ding ding...this is exactly right in my opinion. The timing of this Orc Kingdom/Obould/ManyArrows and a "lich king" ruling in Thay (removing the unique Zulkirs ruling that IS in Ed's vision) at the same time as the massive popularity of World of Warcraft and someone at WotC Hasbro wanting to align their IP with what the kids like elsewhere just makes me hate both things too much to be objective.

I still *personally* don't think Ed would have peaceful orcs in great enough numbers to form a peaceful trading civilization, as it didn't happen in the OGB -- to me Ed's thinking is that orcs are inherently evil when taken as a group and too stupid to cooperate, operating on a hierachry of fear and punishment and killing your way to the top. The only thing that makes them a power is their ability to breed such large numbers they horde every few decades (see also kobolds, goblins, gnolls, etc).

I agree that individual orcs could be much more neutral and perhaps even the occasional orc could be "good", but these should be so rare as to be a non-factor based on the D&D orc.

All that said, they made it happen and I guess FR orcs are now just "misunderstood" like Drizzt. Then of course *spoilers ruin my point here*, but yeah, it's all not worth talking about because of what occurs post.

I think I'm the only one who liked Pirate King :)
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