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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  11:49:32  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I'm trying to pin down a few events in my timeline relating to a federation on city states and barbarian tribes known as the eight throned realm in an elminsters ecology book.

I have gorothirs involvement which gives me a rough date of between -310 and 446 dr.
It provided the wizards that helped ebenfar destroy one of najaras cities so it exists around 0 dr to 100 dr.

I have it made up of angarth barbarians and urdrathi nomads as well as 6 city states in the tunland and around farsea lake (before it became a marsh). I think one of them might be lundeth.

I'm just having trouble figuring out a date of its formation and eventual collapse. I figure it could start falling apart when the desert finally claims kismet and the angarth lands and then the land around farsea lake becomes marshy (someone uses a powerful artefact on a quasi divine being and collapses a city into the high moors).

Can anyone think of any significant events in either the survivor states, western heartlands, or cormyr that means such a realm could not have existed at a time between -310 and 446 dr. For instance if the tunlands were settled by a nation or were the site of a large battle, or something else I have overlooked.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  14:08:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The things you find when you dig.

I just noted a date in my archive relating to the fall of ooltul which I have as -350 dr.
I need to figure it out because ooltul is part of xun qoroth which exists beneath the survivor states and is one reason I have for the slower spread of the desert.

However the lore for ooltul states it fell when phaerimm from myth drannor arrived who sought to breach the Sharn wall using anti magic rays.
The problem is that the Sharn wall didn't come into existence until after that date and so did myth drannor.

So I'm moving the date of ooltuls fall to 350 dr.
The phaerimm fled to the myth drannan area around the time the orcs of vastar attacked cormanthor



The -350 DR date for the fall of Ooltul to the phaerimm appears incorrect. It is found in the 3E Underdark accessory but GHotR notes the Sharnwall as coming into being in 329 DR (when they "defeat" the phaerimm) and DDGtU states that phaerimm from the "ruins" of Myth Drannor (i.e. after 714 DR) conquer the place causing a diaspora of beholders, who move into the Moonsea region and eventually ally with the Zhentarim.

My view is that the date in Underdark has to be disregarded and considered superseded by the GHotR information. On that basis, Ootul is isolated from 329 DR, goes it alone for several centuries and is then conquered by the Myth Drannan phaerimm some time in the late 700s DR.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  14:17:31  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Late 700s dr it is.
Cheers George

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  14:46:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is there any reason it couldn't have fallen at the earlier date, been rebuilt/repopulated/reconquered, and then fallen again?

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  14:55:37  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you mean ooltul or the eight throned realm.
If it's the latter I'm thinking of having it fall in stages.

Several of its city states fall during its existence which weaken it greatly. The final death is only that of its capital on the high moors, several of the city states nearer the tunlands survive that and their mages band together to kill off gorothir

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  15:05:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another question regarding the tomb of thausimbel thardresk in the dungeon of swords.
It's linked via a portal to anauria and a temple of jergal which seems to explain how thardresk ended up buried in that tomb complex.

The question is who built the portal.

I ask because there is mention of a portal in the dungeon of swords to the ever moors, and it implies there are many more portals all connected like a large network.

Now I know the netherese were powerful but I always understood that portals were really powerful magic that few could master (halaster being one of the few able to do so in the modern realms)
I also find the presence of a temple of jergal in anauria as an odd occurrence. If the anaurians built the portal why stick it beneath a temple to jergal. If it was netherese why was the portal constructed so far away from anything else (the lands anauria occupied were quite far from the centre of netherils power) and why link it to the backlands.

I'm mulling over the possibility that it was actually a starring portal that the anaurians uncovered in some old ruin they found. George linked jergal to the sarrukh in his recent work and the sarrukh had outposts in the savage frontier (old owl well was one).

Any other ideas

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  15:55:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Do you mean ooltul or the eight throned realm.
If it's the latter I'm thinking of having it fall in stages.

Several of its city states fall during its existence which weaken it greatly. The final death is only that of its capital on the high moors, several of the city states nearer the tunlands survive that and their mages band together to kill off gorothir



Ooltul. I was thinking it could have fallen, become repopulated sometime later, and then fallen a second time -- thus keeping both references correct.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  19:35:26  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose there is no reason why it couldn't happen, although that does tend to happen far too often in the realms.

All the written lore matches up in that ooltul was outside the sharn wall then three phaerimm from myth drannor (assuming it had fallen) come and subvert the rule of the city.

By having it fall and rise again it would probably introduce more headaches than it would solve, where would the new beholders come from given that xun'qoroth is already under phaerimm control by this point and considered the beholders of ooltul to be abominations, how/why did phaerimm subvert rule of ooltul twice, how did the first fall of ooltul affect xun'qoroth.

I guess nothing is out of the question but I think a date change is probably the simplest solution here.


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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  20:32:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I suppose there is no reason why it couldn't happen, although that does tend to happen far too often in the realms.

All the written lore matches up in that ooltul was outside the sharn wall then three phaerimm from myth drannor (assuming it had fallen) come and subvert the rule of the city.

By having it fall and rise again it would probably introduce more headaches than it would solve, where would the new beholders come from given that xun'qoroth is already under phaerimm control by this point and considered the beholders of ooltul to be abominations, how/why did phaerimm subvert rule of ooltul twice, how did the first fall of ooltul affect xun'qoroth.

I guess nothing is out of the question but I think a date change is probably the simplest solution here.





What says it was the phaerimm both times?

And it's possible that the first time it fell, only a token force was left behind -- or the conquerors abandoned the city at some point -- and surviving beholders who had fled earlier returned.

Heck, the first fall of the city could have been something as simple as the temporary abandonment of the city due to a natural disaster, like a nearby volcanic eruption, heavy flooding, or perhaps an influx of poisonous gases that dissipated (or was magically driven out) after a few years or decades.

It's not really that common a story in the Realms for a conquered/abandoned city to be repopulated, and there are plenty of easy ways to explain it -- especially when there's next to no lore to have to work around. A complicated explanation isn't necessary.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  20:35:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thinking about the religious organisations of the various deities, and trying to work in the various affiliated orders.

I've got the order of paradisiacal pens for amaunator, they have formed the administrative body of the empire (which is how they became so important and arbitrary in the years after netheril's fall.

I've got the brotherhood of the sun as the regular arm of the church that tended to the needs of the commoner. They mostly operated in the Frontier Lands and were carried west with the diaspora (becoming the order of the sun soul and the church of lathander).


I think for Shar I'm leaning towards it operating as cells as Shar's "church" is supposed to be. Perhaps I shall have the leading cell operate under a single leader, when that leader dies a new leader takes charge and reinvents the cell with his own ideas.

So the original cell operated in Seventon until their leader was slaughtered by the followers of Amundar (which eventually became the clergy of amaunator).

A new leader arose The Queen of the Night, Dahlia Comraerl who led them into the west, discovering the cave of whispers in the greypeaks. There they stirred up trouble among the Low Netherese against the Netherese of Seventon.

Shortly after Netheril fell in -310 DR, Dahlia disappeared, whispered to have been taken by the goddess herself (but most likely killed by Gorothir), and was replaced by Gorothir the Dark Prophet who moved the cell to the Tunlands (not yet decided where they operated from), and Gorothir set his sights on claiming the Eight Throned Realm for himself.

His death in 446 DR led to the cell being reinvented yet again, and probably moving into the Western Heartlands or Delimbiyr.

However each time the cell was disbanded and moved on, a few members refused to go with them. Those that survived being murdered with their fellows were able to set up their own cells (smaller of course) that had no connection with the major cell but over time led to the creation of larger cells in nearby lands.


I've got Kozah covered as they are a bunch of terrorists that operate out of a single settlement beyond the borders of Netheril.

Moander isn't a god at this time and has but a handful of nutters hanging around his last remains so no detail needed there.

Selune's Church is pretty similar to what exists now.

Mystryl I think should be a number of competing temples, one on each enclave, the biggest based on Xinlenal.


It is the church of Jannath I am having most trouble with. The followers of the Earthmother of the Moonshaes is very much druidic in nature which means it is not like a typical established church and instead is focused very much on nature and the commoners and making them live together in harmony.

I am leaning towards this harmonic, druidic style of worship being from exposure to elves which Netheril didn't really have. So does that mean the druidic style of worship for Chauntea and the Earthmother came from those fleeing Jhaamdath which had a very strong elven presence within its borders.

The problem is that the Netheril book presents the priests of Jannath as almost druidic in nature and indeed the two affiliated orders were of a murderous group of rangers that slaughtered anyone getting too close, and a bunch of druids that polymorphed anyone they didn't like.

So do I give Jannath a proper church in Netheril. The Empire itself certainly doesn't seem like it could care two hoots about a bunch of nature worshippers, and probably wouldn't give any government backing to such an organisation (unlike the church of mystryl and amaunator). Which would make Jannath's church little more than a bunch of disparate followers that kept their own faith about the goddess of nature and each worshipped her in their own way (based on myths and legends passed down from their talfir ancestors. That makes it very much a goddess of the Low Netherese, not Seventon.

However where then does the church of Chauntea come from. If it is born out of the mingling of Netherese and Jhaamdathi people as I suspect, then where do the druids of the vilhon reach from.
Did the church coalesce around a Netherese or Jhaamdathi church. If Netherese then the druids of the Vilhon Reach are the remnants of the original nature deity of the Jhaam (and probably based on elven ideals). If the church was Jhaamdathi then the Netherese carried their druidic ideals back into the Vilhon Reach as the region was resettled.


And how do I explain the blatant lunatic affiliated orders of Jannath that are already mentioned?

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  20:45:51  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh and I'm pretty sure I read something about a netherese wizard named Ensul, but I can't remember where I read it now, just that it's not the bit in the City of Splendors 3e book.

Anyone know which book I can find information about him in

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2015 :  13:13:30  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
One trouble I have found is a line in Races of Faerun which states
quote:
Ancient Jhaamdath was one of the first human cultures to develop the written word, and, as such, literate Chondathans have long honoured Deneir, the Lord of All Glyphs and Images.
The church of Deneir has spread to other cultures as Chondathan traders spread the trade tongues of Common or its antecedent,

and

quote:
Chondathan merchants carried with them the teachings of Deneir, Helm, and Waukeen.



However I believe I have an explanation. It all hinges on what you define as Chondathan, and how you interpret the first quote which doesn't specifically state that Deneir's worship originated in Jhaamdath, merely that the Chondathans have long venerated Deneir. Surely the people of Jhaamdath would be known as Jhaamdathi. So what if Chondathans are the merging of Jhaamdathi and Netherese (thus giving rise to the trade tongue which merchants spread).

So Deneir's worship starts in Candlekeep, the mixing of Netherese and Jhaamdathi people in the Heartlands carries Deneir's worship back to the Vilhon Reach and beyond. So the Chondathan merchants did spread Deneir's worship and the trade tongue, but Deneir originated in candlekeep after -200 DR.

The church formally forms in -25 DR, probably somewhere in Cormyr (where the orthodox church is centred I believe).

Just a rough idea, and not really connected to Netheril, but its part of the Diaspora which I'm focusing on as well.



This problem could be solved by realising that from the moment of his ascension he is not a person but a diety so he could travel a little easier. Also his new objective as a god is to find new worshipers so it seems logical to go where most of current writting is realised - Chondathan lands after Jhaamdath diaspora. His next big temple is in Vast close to Procampur (Vault of knowledge under Earthfast mountains). As to his connection to Oghma, I think that Oghma supported his divinity as he is a god of oral tradition of preserving knowledge and history. As he seemed rise of writting he realised it is not his domain any more and wanted to address it so he gave part of his power to the most knowledgeble scribe he deemed worthy - deneir from Candlekeep (I like its netheries roots of monastic order).
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2015 :  13:22:20  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Another question regarding the tomb of thausimbel thardresk in the dungeon of swords.
It's linked via a portal to anauria and a temple of jergal which seems to explain how thardresk ended up buried in that tomb complex.

The question is who built the portal.

I ask because there is mention of a portal in the dungeon of swords to the ever moors, and it implies there are many more portals all connected like a large network.

Now I know the netherese were powerful but I always understood that portals were really powerful magic that few could master (halaster being one of the few able to do so in the modern realms)
I also find the presence of a temple of jergal in anauria as an odd occurrence. If the anaurians built the portal why stick it beneath a temple to jergal. If it was netherese why was the portal constructed so far away from anything else (the lands anauria occupied were quite far from the centre of netherils power) and why link it to the backlands.

I'm mulling over the possibility that it was actually a starring portal that the anaurians uncovered in some old ruin they found. George linked jergal to the sarrukh in his recent work and the sarrukh had outposts in the savage frontier (old owl well was one).

Any other ideas


I have actualy used Anauria as a Southern diaspora kingdom saying that they were located north-west of later Cormyr (kingdom of man location) based on older netheries villas there. It also make more sense that their tomb are in region they settled than original. I am basicaly overlooking that portal stuff saying that the tombs are linked somehow like underground tunnel complex and possibly some short range "portals" using it as base of Jergalite temple there (actualy base of Order of Pallid Mask). Location is full of dead-related stuff (local marches/well of dragons) so it make sense that they keep presence there to this day (watching over them).
I am quite interested about your mention of George's link of Jergal to Sarrukh, could you please be more specific (or George if he wills it).
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2015 :  20:15:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
This problem could be solved by realising that from the moment of his ascension he is not a person but a diety so he could travel a little easier. Also his new objective as a god is to find new worshipers so it seems logical to go where most of current writting is realised - Chondathan lands after Jhaamdath diaspora. His next big temple is in Vast close to Procampur (Vault of knowledge under Earthfast mountains). As to his connection to Oghma, I think that Oghma supported his divinity as he is a god of oral tradition of preserving knowledge and history. As he seemed rise of writting he realised it is not his domain any more and wanted to address it so he gave part of his power to the most knowledgeble scribe he deemed worthy - deneir from Candlekeep (I like its netheries roots of monastic order).



Well I'm not a big fan of gods doing anything, its a slippery slope from Deneir did this, to the whole deific soap opera we had during the later stages of 3e.

I'm trying to steer towards having every action attributed to a god actually be performed by the clergy.

If you think about it, even if you believed in god, if he were to suddenly talk to you inside your head (or from a nearby rock) you would probably think yourself mad and it might even shatter your sanity.

So for me, Deneir (Torth) did nothing other than tinker with the wards of candlekeep (well he probably tried to create them), and in doing so he became one with the nether scrolls. For the next few years he probably tried a few subtle whisperings in dreams and during times of meditation to influence the prefects of candlekeep into doing what he wants (which I guess resulted in candlekeep as it is today).

The word of a god of books spread and Deneir became an actual god (the timing isn't important), but an organised church first appeared in 25 DR (or was it 75 DR).

I think before that date he was worshipped informally and individually by scholars and academics. I think Cormyr was probably where the church began (as the largest organised nation on the Inner Sea at the time).

Many of Deneir's faithful also spread into the remnants of Jhaamdath seeking to find and preserve the lost knowledge there. When civilisation returned and Chondath colonised Sembia that is where the beginnings of an orthodox and non orthodox church began.

But the god himself did nothing.

Even Oghma being Deneir's superior I don't really put down to the god's and their actions. For whatever reason Oghma's church was bigger than Deneir's and rather than subsume it, Deneir's church became subservient to Oghma's providing aid when requested.


I haven't looked into where Oghma came from, whether it was a Chondathan or Illuskan god, but the Netherese looked to have merged with both peoples and if Oghma was already and established god of either people then a newly birthed church of Deneir would always have been at a disadvantage.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2015 :  20:48:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
I have actualy used Anauria as a Southern diaspora kingdom saying that they were located north-west of later Cormyr (kingdom of man location) based on older netheries villas there. It also make more sense that their tomb are in region they settled than original. I am basicaly overlooking that portal stuff saying that the tombs are linked somehow like underground tunnel complex and possibly some short range "portals" using it as base of Jergalite temple there (actualy base of Order of Pallid Mask). Location is full of dead-related stuff (local marches/well of dragons) so it make sense that they keep presence there to this day (watching over them).
I am quite interested about your mention of George's link of Jergal to Sarrukh, could you please be more specific (or George if he wills it).



I'm sure I've read in a few sources that Anauria was located in the southwest of the Anauroch basin. I have also read in a few sources that Netheril was located in the southwest of the Anauroch basin.

Unfortunately we have more than enough info about Anauria to know that it actually existed in the Crescent Lands (not sure if I made that name up or not, probably not) which is the strip of land between the scimitar spires and the desertsmouth mountains.

However the false sources did originally give me the idea for another survivor state located in the tunlands and the angardt ancestral lands.

The large underground tunnel complex you are looking for is called the Lowroad. It starts at Ascore and extends to Runlatha and beyond (mentioned in several sources as reaching beyond Runlatha). I have it reaching all the way to Seventon, why build a vast underground highway and not link it to your capital province. I have the netherese forget about it's existence after the mythallar age when magic becomes easier to transport goods, and the phaerimm discover it (connect it to the phaerlin) and use it to spread beneath Netheril, which is why they were able to cover so much of the Anauroch basin in desert so fast.


As for Jergal and the Sarrukh. Its an article called Lord of the End of Everything (pm me with your email address if you want it). Its George's take on Jergal and the Nether Scrolls, but since he is one of the leading lore lords for FR I usually take his opinion as gospel.

So Jergal was a spellweaver of the nation of Eril at around the time the sarrukh and phaerimm existed (located where Ascore is today). In order to hasten the demise of the phaerimm and sarrukh (by providing them with a weaker but easier and more accessible form of magic) Jergal influenced a number of Sarrukh to create the first of the Nether Scrolls (and thus the Weave), thus Jergal created the Baetith.

Arthindol the Terraseer was Jergal's chief and unwitting pawn in this endeavour. As you can see from history the plan succeeded and the sarrukh and phaerimm nearly annihilated one another. Unfortunately the spellweavers of Eril almost wiped themselves out of existence by performing a ritual that would elevate themselves to the next stage of existence (sharn or phaerimm perhaps, maybe something beyond sharn or phaerimm).

Jergal at the time was in stasis and emerged as an undead being that immediately tried to track down the sstar gems that were important performing the ritual again (many of them had been plundered by dwarves that moved to Sundbarr). For me the sstar gems are actually chardalyns and are the remnants of the spellweaver race, so to restore his race he needed the gems which is what they were transformed into.

Jergal's undead form was destroyed but he became a deity in the process and began to influence the fledgling Netherese (the necromancer shamans of Seventon - like Nether the Elder - were actually worshippers of Jergal). That's why the elves taught the Netherese about magic, because they wanted to stop Jergal.

Fastforward to -339 DR and Jergal was going to perform the Code of Reversion again (the ritual that wiped out the Spellweaver race) and restore his people to existence before elevating them beyond it. He had persuaded 12 of the greatest archwizards (including Tharlagaunt Bale aka Bhaal, although I have him as not an archwizard, but the only one that wasn't) to join him in the ritual (probably with lies and promises of godhood because none of them knew what was going to happen).

Arthindol sabotaged this plan (he had since become aware of Jergal's manipulation of him and the sarrukh and he was not happy about it given the consequences it had for isstosseffifil) by persuading Ioulaum and Karsus not to take part but Jergal and 10 of the "candidates" proceeded to perform the ritual anyway at Ascore (the 13 pyramids were 1 each for the 12 candidates and a large central pyramid for Jergal's divine vessel).

Unfortunately Karsus cast his spell and caused all magic to go malfunction. The Code of Reversion ritual failed and all but 3 of the "candidates" were killed (Bale obviously survived to become Bhaal later).

I've extended this further, and Jergal and the 7 candidates were merged together with the spellweavers and a number of other beings that were present and trying to disrupt the ritual (phaerimm, sarrukh, and their agents). This is the origin of the Netherese Sharn that created the Sharn wall and encased the phaerimm (they aren't really sharn at all, they just look a bit like them having a large central mouth and 4 arms and being midnight black).
Jergal of course later extricated himself and his personality from the mess that was the Netherese Sharn (not unscathed though), and the Netherese Sharn now dwell in Ascore.

Its an excellent article, well worth the read, and it provides credible explanations for a number of conundrums surrounding netheril.

If you want a copy let me know. It should be spread far and wide as gospel about the secrets of Ascore and the Nether Scrolls.

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Wrigley
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Czech Republic
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Posted - 02 Nov 2015 :  21:20:27  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'm sure I've read in a few sources that Anauria was located in the southwest of the Anauroch basin. I have also read in a few sources that Netheril was located in the southwest of the Anauroch basin.

Unfortunately we have more than enough info about Anauria to know that it actually existed in the Crescent Lands (not sure if I made that name up or not, probably not) which is the strip of land between the scimitar spires and the desertsmouth mountains.

Its an excellent article, well worth the read, and it provides credible explanations for a number of conundrums surrounding netheril.

If you want a copy let me know. It should be spread far and wide as gospel about the secrets of Ascore and the Nether Scrolls.


Yes I have moved Anauria in my Realms as it make more sense to me. There is entirely unused southern way with only some mentions of netheries descendants ignoring that this was a way to both most advanced civilisation around (Calimshan and Chondathan) also they made tombs there. Also it make sense to me as whole nation was subtly influenced by Terraseer and they had this serpent population of Najara to use (or look out for). Only problem on this way were Goblin Marches but for nation of wizards??
Thank you for including this theory of George but I have made another theory that fits (and I plan to summarize it for other scribes here). I have most respect for work of George and other cannonical creators but I am going on different path of thoughts.
In short I have started from scratch and Jergal is one of most "evil" gods with Moander and Selune :) He would very much like to end the cycle of life and has caused most of Netheril's problems including the Fall and aftermatch (like Assault of Goodnes...eh Procession of Justice)
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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 07 Nov 2015 :  00:04:33  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, about Tyche, she was stated a number of times, to be identical with Greek goddess of te same name.

I think Kozah would also make sense rather as another Giant godling, as he shares the Norse-ish and a bit Greek-ish themes of Giant deities, as Kozah, like Talos, has traits pretty similar to Odin and Zeus.
Or maybe an ascended evil storm giant.
As while Talos shares Sseth's tendency to absorb other deities, is becase of this reason I doubt Sseth would ever cast of a part of himself. I mean, Sseth specifically known for devouring other deities in great numbers, practically absorbing nearly all of the other Sarrukh gods. It just would seem out of character for him to let Kozah get separate.

Edited by - Baltas on 07 Nov 2015 00:16:11
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 07 Nov 2015 :  08:23:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I only deal with deities in the realms so where she came from before arriving on toril I don't dwell on much, but I chose to make the early netherese migrating nomads that worshipped place spirits so tyche and indeed most netherese deities had to be interlopers.

I originally had Targus as the sarrukh god because of his link to akintaer, but later discovered kozahs link to monikar and an ancient temple beneath it and the only other things in this region prior to the netherese were elves and sarrukh. So kozah became the sarrukh deity.

It actually fit better in the end. Targus was represented as a giant sized creature with many arms, and there is a theme of many armed giantish creatures in The Ride and the moonsea region, plus the ride has a history of giant and human occupation dating back way before netheril so that's where he could have been imported from. Plus the legends have Targus, tempus, and garagos warring and merging which couldn't happen if Targus was sseth.

Kozah fit much better as the sarrukh deity because his church were dedicated to destroying netheril which is an odd goal. His portfolios match sseth better as well and his centre of power was way on the fringe of netherese territory. The only problem was his inclusion in Baldurs gate 1 as an insane vestigial remnant of kozah which again couldn't happen if he was sseth as an alias. However sseth is a serpentine deity and although he has a reputation for consuming other deities I believe those were all serpentine deities. The scaly folk regard humans as cattle at best and vermin at worst, they are a race of racial supremacists. I figured sseth would find human worship to be disgusting and so was only willing to tolerate it in order to accomplish his goal of destroying netheril, once that was achieved he no longer needed the guise of kozah and so abandoned it.

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Wrigley
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Czech Republic
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Posted - 07 Nov 2015 :  10:45:07  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I only deal with deities in the realms so where she came from before arriving on toril I don't dwell on much, but I chose to make the early netherese migrating nomads that worshipped place spirits so tyche and indeed most netherese deities had to be interlopers.

I originally had Targus as the sarrukh god because of his link to akintaer, but later discovered kozahs link to monikar and an ancient temple beneath it and the only other things in this region prior to the netherese were elves and sarrukh. So kozah became the sarrukh deity.

It actually fit better in the end. Targus was represented as a giant sized creature with many arms, and there is a theme of many armed giantish creatures in The Ride and the moonsea region, plus the ride has a history of giant and human occupation dating back way before netheril so that's where he could have been imported from. Plus the legends have Targus, tempus, and garagos warring and merging which couldn't happen if Targus was sseth.

Kozah fit much better as the sarrukh deity because his church were dedicated to destroying netheril which is an odd goal. His portfolios match sseth better as well and his centre of power was way on the fringe of netherese territory. The only problem was his inclusion in Baldurs gate 1 as an insane vestigial remnant of kozah which again couldn't happen if he was sseth as an alias. However sseth is a serpentine deity and although he has a reputation for consuming other deities I believe those were all serpentine deities. The scaly folk regard humans as cattle at best and vermin at worst, they are a race of racial supremacists. I figured sseth would find human worship to be disgusting and so was only willing to tolerate it in order to accomplish his goal of destroying netheril, once that was achieved he no longer needed the guise of kozah and so abandoned it.


I will try to sumarize my take as you seems to be going on very simmilar path.
Talos is a storm giants god that was defeated by Annam (cloud giants) in a bid for leadership and he left. He is bitter diety of elemental destruction and is thus bound to destroy everything not only Netheril. It make sense for them to interpret it this way as they were supremacist lot.
As for sarrukh influence in Netheril (which is proven by Teraseer) I have found Moander more than fitting. He is god of rot and corruption and in my realms his old name is Mhairshaulk.
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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 07 Nov 2015 :  12:05:07  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley


I will try to sumarize my take as you seems to be going on very simmilar path.
Talos is a storm giants god that was defeated by Annam (cloud giants) in a bid for leadership and he left. He is bitter diety of elemental destruction and is thus bound to destroy everything not only Netheril. It make sense for them to interpret it this way as they were supremacist lot.
As for sarrukh influence in Netheril (which is proven by Teraseer) I have found Moander more than fitting. He is god of rot and corruption and in my realms his old name is Mhairshaulk.



Interesting take on Talos Wrigley, I thought something similar.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I only deal with deities in the realms so where she came from before arriving on toril I don't dwell on much, but I chose to make the early netherese migrating nomads that worshipped place spirits so tyche and indeed most netherese deities had to be interlopers.

I originally had Targus as the sarrukh god because of his link to akintaer, but later discovered kozahs link to monikar and an ancient temple beneath it and the only other things in this region prior to the netherese were elves and sarrukh. So kozah became the sarrukh deity.

It actually fit better in the end. Targus was represented as a giant sized creature with many arms, and there is a theme of many armed giantish creatures in The Ride and the moonsea region, plus the ride has a history of giant and human occupation dating back way before netheril so that's where he could have been imported from. Plus the legends have Targus, tempus, and garagos warring and merging which couldn't happen if Targus was sseth.

Kozah fit much better as the sarrukh deity because his church were dedicated to destroying netheril which is an odd goal. His portfolios match sseth better as well and his centre of power was way on the fringe of netherese territory. The only problem was his inclusion in Baldurs gate 1 as an insane vestigial remnant of kozah which again couldn't happen if he was sseth as an alias. However sseth is a serpentine deity and although he has a reputation for consuming other deities I believe those were all serpentine deities. The scaly folk regard humans as cattle at best and vermin at worst, they are a race of racial supremacists. I figured sseth would find human worship to be disgusting and so was only willing to tolerate it in order to accomplish his goal of destroying netheril, once that was achieved he no longer needed the guise of kozah and so abandoned it.



Well, maybe, but Sseth is worshiped by humans under his guises as detailed in Serpent Kingdoms(even much before Set usurped him), and Powers and Pantheons.

Sseth, while speciest, his endless gluttony is a far stronger trait than his specieism. Not to mention, Sseth was based, and basically meant to be the Forgotten Realms version of Robert Howard's(Conan, Kull) Set the serpent god, who was accepting human worship.

Also, Talos(and Kozah) in their atributes, remind me of a giant or giant god, particulary a storm giant.

And out of curiocity dazzlerdal, what will be the relationship of Kozah and Talos in your version?

Edited by - Baltas on 07 Nov 2015 12:34:22
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 07 Nov 2015 :  13:26:27  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oddly enough I have Moander as having been created at the end or near the end of isstosseffifil. Human legends in the region depict Moander as something of a saviour, delivering them from slavery long ago. He was also said to reside in the south westerly tip of the deserts mouth mountains which were known as moanders footstep to the netherese.
Then following netherils fall Moander appears once again as a juggernaut of decay and speeds towards the heart of cormanthor before being imprisoned at tsornyl.

Those hints said to me that Moander was not a god at all (although the sarrukh may have revered him as one). Instead he was a physical and powerful being which has been termed primordial by some. He was born out of the decay wrought by the mass death and destruction wrought by the sarrukh rerouting the narrow sea.
He ran out of organic matter trying to cross the mountains and cocooned himself in the place bearing his name.
A few netherese outcasts discovered his remains and began worshipping him (although he was still not a god then either).
It wasn't until alithar chonis arrived following netherils fall and traded his divinity to Moander in order to be free of it (and unfortunately ended up as moanders pawn). Shortly after that Moander arose once more and continued his journey to cormanthor. He became a fully fledged god shortly after his imprisonment in tsornyl.

And that's my take on Moander, using the few good bits in the netheril book.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 07 Nov 2015 :  13:44:53  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe talos is a northmen god.
Kozahs worship declines precipitously following the fall of Netheril, too much death and destruction everywhere. He is largely abandoned by the people of fallen netheril.
In the western heartlands the netherese and jhaamdathi people mingle to form chondathans and then the Northmen also arrive in the area.
The result is a merging of three pantheons to form a fledgling faerunian pantheon.
Kozah's meagre followers are killed or driven off or absorbed by the followers of talos who are much more aggressive.
I'm really trying hard to move away from gods taking overt actions, so no deific battles or showdowns, instead one clergy is beaten by another and the laity have no choice but to pay lip service to talos to keep the forces of destruction at bay, because within a few centuries that is the only god of destruction around.
Kozah becomes a free willed and insane demi godling of such low power he can barely maintain his own single avatar/divine vessel as we see in baldurs gate.
Talos becomes a merger of the ideals and imagery of kozah and talos because although his worship supplants that of kozah, the netherese descendants still stick to a few of their traditions which become part of the cultural consciousness of his followers who are now Northmen, chondathans, and beyond as lands like impiltur, cormyr, the dale lands etc are settled.

It's a similar story for tempus and Targus and garagos. The followers of the gods fight and eventually one group wins. Although in this case actual avatars were probably summoned to do battle.

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Baltas
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Posted - 07 Nov 2015 :  16:13:18  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good story, but a thing somewhat against it, is that Talos and Kozah seem nigh-identicall, in character, looks and other stuff. The only reall difference is that Talos has one eye missing, while Kozah has seemingly both eyes intact. Although the Idol of Kozah in Baldur's Gate, has a scar running through one of his eyes, suggesting Kozah also was missing one eye, making Kozah and Talos identical.
Also, the Doomsayer seemed to be a proxy of Kozah, who served the Idol, rather than Kozah himself...

Although one could explain it with Kozah's myths having just immense influence on the perception of Talos.

So maybe Talos would be Storm Giant godling?

Edited by - Baltas on 07 Nov 2015 16:18:07
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 07 Nov 2015 :  16:32:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the Northmen seem to have been ruled by or lived in lands occupied by giants so reverence of giants is quite likely

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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 07 Nov 2015 :  17:38:12  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I think it would be the case.
Also, as Ed confimed Tyr is an very old god, and confimed as a member of the Jhaamdath pantheon, I think he also might have been a giant god, but a very lesser one, or an ascended giant. Tyr in Norse myths, was a of Jotun origin, with his father being the giant Hymir(which is very important, as it seems among Norse gods, the fact of what race you are was largelly patrilinear, that's how Odin, Thor and many other gods were counted as Aesir, despite having Jotun mothers.).

My guess is Tyr merged with, or defeated a Beholder deity, and from there are his connections with them. Alternatelly, among the early Jhaamdathans, there were two cults of a god of justice, one of Beholder origin, other being Tyr, and they just merged overtime.

Giant civilisation had some influence on Jhaamdath, and their language, so this is another clue. Othea was even known as Sonnhild in ancient Thorass.

[EDIT]

Also, about Talos, I think it's possible he is Vilmos, the progenitor of Torillan Storm Giants, or Talos is one of Vilmos' sons. The names Vilmos and Talos even sound similary.
My guess Talos/Vilmos would welcome human worshippers, if he ascended, seeing how allmost all Storm Giants worship Stronmaus, and to a lesser degree Memnor.

Edited by - Baltas on 07 Nov 2015 18:08:22
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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 09 Nov 2015 :  09:40:43  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And returning to Tyche. I think in either On Hallowed Ground(more more probably in On Hallowed Ground) or Faiths & Avatars, it was stated Hermes of the Greek pantheon gone to search for Tyche to Toril, but was stopped by Ao.
This along with few other examples does suggest that the Greek goddess Tyche crossed over to the realms.

So the Greek goddess Tyche worshipped by Talfir or/and Thaeravel, and the Netherese allready worshipped just an "echo" of the Greek Goddess?

Also,the druidic cult around Jannath, Chauntea and The Earthmother, is quite probably in part influenced by Talfiric worship. Talfir had contact from very early with elves, and were all most certainly influenced by them. Ffolk are after all of Talfiri descent.
Also I know you don't like to have Talfiri as a big player, but there are many clues the Talfiri pantheon was one the couple pantheon that formed the Faerunian pantheon.

Edited by - Baltas on 09 Nov 2015 11:12:25
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 09 Nov 2015 :  11:09:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

And returning to Tyche. I think in either On Hallowed Ground(more more probably in On Hallowed Ground) or Faiths & Avatars, it was stated Hermes of the Greek pantheon gone to search for Tyche to Toril, but was stopped by Ao.


Pages 127-8 of On Hallowed Ground.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 09 Nov 2015 :  12:34:47  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not against anything per se, except perhaps for gods taking any form if direct or physical action.
I just don't see the talfir people as having any kind if unified pantheon.
The few indicators we have for them begin as scattered primitive tribes beneath keltormir, a tribe of nature loving ffolk cast out by a rapidly expanding empire ruled by an emperor who may have been of talfiric descent.

I made the nation of thaeravel talfiric to try and flesh them out a bit more and because they didn't fit with ulutiuns and were too far away to be netherese, the only thing left was talfir.
I see the nation and civilisation having been forced upon them by dragon overlords that were eliminated by the part draconian descendents. Those same descendents became the rulers of thaeravel and essentially replaced the dragon overlord. When those sorcerers were killed by the netherese the nation collapsed and the normal talfir wandered off abandoning civilisation (which probably never suited them).

I see them as nature loving tribals at heart with little in the way of a unifying culture or pantheon. So the netherese adopted the ideas of some place and ancestor spirits that the talfir of thaeravel had. Those adoptions then became the netherese pantheon.

When netheril and jhaamdath fell and the Northmen arrived and all mixed together in the western heartlands/dragon coast, the poor nature loving talfir were simply out competed by more vigorous and aggressive cultures. That is why the ffolk of the moonshaes are the last representative of the talfir people (and given their insularity I would imagine their culture has changed little).

So the talfir probably had few true deities, and instead had lots of place spirits, ancestor spirits, and beast cults. They just couldn't compete with entire churches with hundreds of members and so the worship of these beings gradually faded as did the talfir who were absorbed into the growing chondathan, illuskan, and tethyrian peoples.

Does that mean nothing survived of talfir culture and deities. There are echoes of them in the surviving gods, more than echoes for those churches of netherese origin. But I don't ascribe a unified pantheon to the entire talfir people to be absorbed. Each tribe had its own traditions and worship, there was little to unify these people that ranged through the former lands of keltormir.

Basically I have talfir like the ice hunters and ulutiuns, they are peaceful and primitive and get washed away in a sea of aggressive invaders.

But that's just my world, I could be way off

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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 09 Nov 2015 :  12:58:24  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, but the Shadowking, Verraketh Talember, was confined as Talfiric from heritage.

Also I think Jannath and her culture being druidic in nature may had been at least in part from Talfiric influence. In fact, one of Jannath titles is the Earthmother...

Also what's your take on the Netherese Tyche, Talfiric Tyche and Greek Tyche? I'm really curious.

Edited by - Baltas on 09 Nov 2015 13:38:15
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 09 Nov 2015 :  14:25:22  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the shadow king may have been of talfiric origin but that does mean his subjects were, he likely conquered a lot of chondathan and netherese people as that's who lived in the region at the time.

I have jannath as an echo of the great earth mother ancestor spirit of some talfir tribes (venerated by the practically enslaved commoners of thaeravel).
When thaeravel ended and civilisation collapsed for the talfir in that region the practice of organised worship also collapsed.
When netheril began settling lands with some talfir in they adopted the idea of a nature deity and jannath was born. As to whether she is the same deity or not I always leave it open to interpretation but for me it might as well be a no. The gods are subtle and mysterious, one can never tell if that dream was a vision from their god or down to some strong cheese just before bed.
The god jannath was based on a minor talfiric quasi deity whose following dwindled to a few thousand worships that all worshipped in individual ways.
The netherese jannath used those legend, rumours and individual followings as a basis but they very much made it into a deity that suited them, such that jannath would be unrecognisable to a traditional talfiric follower of times gone by.

Does that difference morph the talfir great earth mother into the netherese jannath, does it split the deity in two, or does the act of worship by new people in a new pantheon cause the creation of a new god. I don't really know, I suspect the answer is a mixture of all scenarios and it is a debate without point because only the faerunian pantheon survives.


As to tyche and other deities with earth parallels, I prefer to follow ed's original idea in that the gods are only based on earth deities, they are not the actually the same.
Yes there are links between the two worlds but to me earth is very much a dead/dying planet and there is not enough magic to sustain even a legend let alone a deity.
If there were any gods here, they died or moved on long ago.

Thus the idea of tyche on faerun may well have come from a handful of Greeks who passed through a portal to faerun. Their myths and legends (some of which may have been fabricated to impress the natives) started the idea of a similar deity with a similar name.
Evolving legends then may have passed back to earth through portal travel or not, the religion on earth evolves anyway through Chinese whispers as everything does.
So is this tyche the same as our tyche, is it an amalgam of the two, did tyche split when followers came to faerun, or was a new and similar deity born. Again I don't know and again it doesn't matter. There is no tyche on earth anymore so you can do whatever you like with it. I prefer that the separation occurred so long ago that the tyche on earth in now way resembles the tyche on faerun and they might as well be separate deities, even if they were the same, I don't think it would matter as few gods will refuse free divine energy from thousands of worshippers because they got a few legends wrong or the hair colour (and it would cost to much divine energy to correct them).
Only lolth is so insane and petty as to punish her worshippers for mistaken theology and even then that could have just been bad luck on the part of the drow that was perceived as divine retribution.

I think the only gods from earth I have ever accepted are the mulhorandi, untheric, akanic, and maztican, and that is only because they physically gave up god hood and travelled the universe to toril, abandoning the dying earth.

I suspect I may have rambled on for several pages. In short I try and keep gods distant, mysterious, and complex, I also prefer to keep them localised only to faerun, but if others like them spanning multiple pantheons and answerable to the whims of over gods then who am I to say no.

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