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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 16:28:11
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| aaah so then one male and one female per race then...... and sub races |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 17:24:45
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I think a few of the iconics can serve 'double duty' - race and class. I'm not so sure we need race-specific ones, if we have enough examples of class-related ones (but it all depends on how many races we have, compared to core classes).
I would leave one 'androgynous', and not even say whether it was male or female. That would be interesting... and perhaps 'one up' Paizo. I would probably go with a human, because an elf is too obvious a choice for that. A halfling could work, or gnome. A dwarf would be rough, because we'd get into that whole beard debacle again. Warforged should be an obvious choice for androgynous... but weirdly, they do have 'sexes' (not literally, but they do gravitate to acting like one or the other, for some strange reason).
No boobs on reptiles!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't emphasized that enough! Its FANTASY, not stupidity! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2014 17:26:34 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 18:53:44
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So who do we have so far? Thunderstorm, Alissa, maybe a couple from the 3e lineup? I actually wouldn't mind that pig-tailed drow chick from 3eSS getting to be an iconic (a crinti represents two races, and possibly she could cover a class as well... Badass?) 
How about this - WotC holds a contest, and whoever comes up with the most interesting (lowbie) characters gets to have their five minutes of fame by creating FR canon? I'd write-up Volo's Granddaughter Volarra, Wooly can write-up his legless sage (because the iconics should not just limited to what we need - they should come from all walks of life), etc.
Sage can write-up an 'absent-minded professor' type... and then submit it sometime during 8e. 
He'd definitely be a Harpell..... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2014 18:57:00 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 19:28:46
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oh you didn't know.....
Sage is a Harpell, thats why he is always on Sage time. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 19:55:44
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| oh btw wotc should really use Elaith's daughter as one of the new fr iconics. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 23:41:32
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Hmm, didn‘t Dragonlance originally do something like this? Admittedly, all of the characters were ultimately involved in world-shaping legends and a few subsequently became somewhat godlike in terms of raw power. But for the most part they started off as a variety of reasonable feeble low-level NPCs.
I‘m still not quite understanding the purpose of these iconics. Why not continue to use old 3E/4E artwork characters if they happen to represent classes which are largely unchanged in 5E? |
[/Ayrik] |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2014 : 23:45:34
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because the majority of them, were nothing but filler. + the 4e art was mostly ugly and they spawned to many skin tone threads that all ended up locked.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 01:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, didn‘t Dragonlance originally do something like this? Admittedly, all of the characters were ultimately involved in world-shaping legends and a few subsequently became somewhat godlike in terms of raw power. But for the most part they started off as a variety of reasonable feeble low-level NPCs.
I‘m still not quite understanding the purpose of these iconics. Why not continue to use old 3E/4E artwork characters if they happen to represent classes which are largely unchanged in 5E?
My point is to simply put some new faces on the Realms, ones that will forever remain as intriguing entry points for fans. If I knew nothing about the Realms, and picked up a book with Elminster on the cover, there is a huge amount of books -- some no longer in print -- to wade thru to learn everything about him. Actually, even as a well-established Realms fan, I've not read all of his books, because I'm not the biggest fan of Ed's fiction.
The Pathfinder Iconics are written up online. If I pick up a Pathfinder product and I want to know who the cleavage-showing tattooed lady in red is, I can get online and find her story -- and that is most of the info on her.
So that is my suggestion, with a little bit more tacked on. For example, Bahb the Fighter. Come up with a set image for Bahb. Publish his backstory and info on his personality online. Use that image of Bahb on various products, and occasionally add to his backstory... But most importantly, keep him from being a major player (or retire him if he becomes one), and keep him out of novels.
Doing this, some prospective fan can become intrigued by his artwork, and find out all the info about him online. Once he reads about (again, for example) Bahb's fight against Malevil the Bad Guy in the streets of Waterdeep, then our new fan could become interested in Waterdeep and want to read more about it... And bada bing, you've got a new Realms fan introduced to the setting, and he's not immediately overwhelmed by the discovery that Bahb's tale spans 23 novels, 17 short stories, 5 video games, 2 comic titles, and a Lego set. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 06:20:29
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If there was a Like or +1 button on this site, I would break it agreeing with Wooly's post. His explanation is precisely why Iconics are useful for introducing new players to the game and setting.
In a way the Pathfinder Iconics have become mascots of the game system and the setting, rather than having Drizzt or Elminster like Forgotten Realms. Now there's nothing particularly wrong with Drizzt or Elminster, but they have dozens of novels, video games, book mentions, and historical ties (centuries long backstories) throughout the Realms' publication.
The Pathfinder Iconics were designed (and have remained) perpetual starting characters. Even if the adventure starts them at higher levels, they're not coming into every adventure with the epic histories (length and significance) the likes of Drizzt or El. They're also not throwaway pregen characters that change with each adventure and are forgotten. They're in this middle ground between flavorful but not overwhelming that seems to work well, at least as well as the original 3E characters were designed for but never fully accomplished.
As for the 3E Iconics, I find they're a pretty lackluster lot and this is after putting aside the relative paucity of details about them, even though they were featured in a series of generic D&D novels (which is going about it wrong). Even the ones who seem okay at a glance have trouble hitting the Iconic "sweet spot". Maybe it's because they play to type too closely by following the favored classes rule.
Ember the Monk, I get they're trying to give the minority character a serious-minded kickass role and also trying to stay away from the Asian kung-fu stereotype at the same time. It's a good attempt but Ember comes off 'tribal' like a poor xerox of Zula from Conan the Destroyer (who at least embraced the style with gusto).
Contrast with Ember's PF counterparts, Seelah the Paladin and Sajan the Monk. Seelah is the same gender and general skin tone, Paizo gave her the most "serious" role there is amongst the typical classes and one that doesn't trade one set of ethnic stereotypes for another. No, Seelah is fully armed and armor like every classical (Western European fantasy) paladin. This is actually breaking two stereotypes, one that paladins are white dudes in armor, another that blacks/Africans appear in "primitive" gear (armorless, staff weapon, sling) and face paint.
Sajan comes from an Indian-like background, still Asian, but not of an area commonly associated with kung-fu monks (though there's actual RW historical ties). Plus there are Indian martial arts that do not receive the same media spotlight as East Asian disciplines. Paizo managed to partially subvert the trope without breaking it.
Alhandra the Paladin, where do we start. A woman paladin, that works one might say. Yet why is she dressed like a ranger (at best)? It might be the color of her clothing, but the outfit looks she's aiming for gratuitous scantly-clad fantasy babe, but couldn't put aside her inhibitions, so she put on a flesh tone leotard underneath.
What's with the asymmetrical scale armor drape thingy? There's no reason for this especially when Regdar, Tordek, and Jozan had armor appropriate for their role and class. Also, dark eye shadow, a headband, and a hairspray-stiffened mullet-looking thing, lady looks like she's going out for an aerobics class during the '80s followed by a night out to a hair-metal concert.
They tried to fix this image problem in later pieces depicting her (with much improved armor, even one image with a Helm of Brilliance, nice), but first impression did its damage. We don't see much of Alhandra afterwards.
As for Lidda, Tordek, Kursk, et al. They're fine if typical (again, favored classes in play), but this is where a history and personality can make them shine. Also, Paizo let Wayne Reynolds go crazy with the character design and he added in lots of little personal character touches in the portraits (like Valeros' steel mug looped into his belt). This gave each character some immediate visual traits outside of "Male Human Fighter".
Even Regdar is fine with some work. Imagine if WotC seized on the visual sniping between designers and marketing, and actually incorporated Todd Lockwood's attempt to make Regdar look bi-racial. Then imagine if they managed to secure the rights to use the likeness of say ... Vin Diesel as Regdar. That would have mixed up the status quo a bit and given the game some additional visibility. All that's missing is a compelling story (and a movie, but the rights are tied up in litigation). |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 10 Jan 2014 06:32:42 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 14:25:45
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Seelah the paladin actually brakes another stereotype, that iconic is a lesbian... and comes from ... forgot that area... but she's more Egyptian like that dark skinned african farther to the south from where in Garund she's from.
sayan the tian xing monk.............. kick arse guy.... whether its intended or not Saiyan ..dbz.....
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 15:12:01
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Thats Osirion, not Egyptian. Not being a correction-Nazi or anything, but I wouldn't want someone unfamiliar with Golarion to think there were actual Egyptians in it (unlike FR, which does have real Egyptians). However, I think you over-simplified as well. She is probably Garundi, which is the equivalent of their 'Moorish' (north-African) racial group (which loosely equates to our Turmish/Tashalar). Their 'dark African' equivalent are the Mwangi, which has several very different branches (and even at least two extinct groups). We used to have that back in the day... until 3e decided they were all simply 'Chultans'. 
Also, there official stance is that ALL the iconics are bisexual. Thats pretty much all they have to say about that, but it does lead to some rather intriguing speculation: why would the entire group be bisexual, unless being bisexual was the norm on Golarion? They have never stated as much, which makes it all the better - people can draw their own conclusions (for their own games). D&D/FR could never do that, because they are owned by Hasbro... a toy company (which means their target customers are children). On the surface I suppose that makes it okay, but is it really? By deciding that the LGBT 'lifestyle' is not fit for children, you are forcing an out-dated morality on everyone else.
Perhaps Paizo's success is actually due more to them understanding the changing culture, rather then their adherence to the past and its sacred cows. The company that starts specifically targeting a rising demographic is the one aiming to be on top in the 21st century. Eventually, all of us grognards will go the way of the dinosaur, and who will be buying D&D then?
And BTW, this is more a 'something to think about' post, not support for any lifestyle or any argument against such things, either. This is something the whole of Hasbro (and the rest of the toy/gaming industry) needs to start understanding; the simple fact that Hasbro has a 'Toys for Boys' division demonstrates just how old-fashioned their thinking is. If your little girl wants to play with a Tonka truck, should you run out and buy her a pair of Doc Martens? Seriously, do they think that way?
Anyhow, I seem to have struck a nerve within myself - certain parts of their 'writers guidelines' still annoy the heck out of me. I hope the guys over at WotC are a bit more liberal then the parent company.
Anyhow, this relates to the topic at hand, because I don't want them making any mistakes. They need to carefully consider every back-story and piece of artwork with these iconics, because if there is one thing people like to do, its take offense easily. It boggles the mind that no-one noticed this with that conceptual art we were discussing awhile back. Having a black bard was kinda cool and innovative, but also touched on a bad stereotype (completely inadvertently, I am sure). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2014 15:55:51 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 22:53:34
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@Wooly:
To me, the thought of a Drizzt Lego set is both disturbing and nauseating. It‘s a good thing that Hasbro doesn‘t make genuine Lego, only that *other* cheap knockoff brand with the slightly-wrong-sized pieces.
Edit
On second thought, there might be some merit in a Lego Drizzt ... he could be readily disassembled, threated by Lego Darth Vader and vikings and Harry Potters.
Back to your topic, folks, nothing to see here, move along. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Jan 2014 22:56:12 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2014 : 23:01:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
@Wooly:
To me, the thought of a Drizzt Lego set is both disturbing and nauseating. It‘s a good thing that Hasbro doesn‘t make genuine Lego, only that *other* cheap knockoff brand with the slightly-wrong-sized pieces.
Edit
On second thought, there might be some merit in a Lego Drizzt ... he could be readily disassembled, threated by Lego Darth Vader and vikings and Harry Potters.
Back to your topic, folks, nothing to see here, move along.
you forgot about the lego ninjas of ninjago the masters of spinjitsu |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 00:06:06
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| I find the idea of 'iconics' head-spinningly wrong-headed, but putting focus back on adventuring bands can only be a good thing. It's part of why I love reading about the Knights of Myth Drannor and Company of Crazed Venturers: they're a model of Realms adventuring companies and their stories. Any such new group would have to be shown as a band, though, and not as disparate egos who look like they've been separately overdesigned by concept artists, posed statically or hyperdynamically instead of as people in a world. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 01:02:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sage can write-up an 'absent-minded professor' type... and then submit it sometime during 8e.
He'd definitely be a Harpell.....
I like this idea.
I like this idea A LOT!  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 15:15:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, didn‘t Dragonlance originally do something like this? Admittedly, all of the characters were ultimately involved in world-shaping legends and a few subsequently became somewhat godlike in terms of raw power. But for the most part they started off as a variety of reasonable feeble low-level NPCs.
I‘m still not quite understanding the purpose of these iconics. Why not continue to use old 3E/4E artwork characters if they happen to represent classes which are largely unchanged in 5E?
Yeah, I don't get it either. I never got a hard on for the 3rd edition ones (good or bad, other than to think some of their outfits looked stupid). I don't care much about the Paizo ones. What I do think they should develop is NPC's that aren't ultra powerful that people can see and interact with. Like when I described the 5 generations removed grandchild of Lhaeo being some backwoods sage with all kinds of lore at his fingertips. He could be that unreliable narrator for lore that we liked similar to how Elminster was used to a degree (with the results being truly unreliable, because he's only relating what he's read). You could have some similar nobleman in Cormyr or Waterdeep. You could have some Thayan wizard in an enclave who never arose beyond the functionary level. You could have some Sembian merchant, some pirate captain on the sword coast, some wemic spirit shaman in the Shaar. All of these, their purpose isn't to represent X class... they're to present a knowledgeable resource from a region who isn't so ultra-powerful as to be unaccessible... or someone who may NEED the help of adventurers because they can't accomplish something themselves. I wouldn't care if we had a specific warlock and a specific wizard.... just so long as for a region we had something that fit. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 15:56:36
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You know, come to think of it... Sleyvas's comment just sparked a memory - we sort of had those, too.
The narrators in the old Elminster's Ecologies were like that. Perhaps we could go back and steal a couple of those as well? There was also the narrator (Amelior Amanitas) of the Savage North product. He was an alchemist, so that could explain how he could survive (although if he were that adept at his craft, then thats not really what we are looking for, are we?)
I'll see if I can make a list of the others.
EDIT: LOL - figures, the first one is Elminster. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2014 16:23:28 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 17:07:39
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quote:
I find the idea of 'iconics' head-spinningly wrong-headed, but putting focus back on adventuring bands can only be a good thing. It's part of why I love reading about the Knights of Myth Drannor and Company of Crazed Venturers: they're a model of Realms adventuring companies and their stories. Any such new group would have to be shown as a band, though, and not as disparate egos who look like they've been separately overdesigned by concept artists, posed statically or hyperdynamically instead of as people in a world.
THIS combined with Sleyvas' idea concerning the descendant of Lhaeo is perfect to me. On top of that, the fact that his descendant basically works for El creates a nice connection to 'uber' powerful NPC just in case it's needed. Also, I'm still voting for a Knights of Myth Drannor connection here. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 11 Jan 2014 17:08:53 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 17:55:47
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Well, yeah - A we discussed earlier, a few should have connections to the past, and old (uber) characters, but we don't want to over-do that. Then instead of the attitude, "you have to be level 30 to play in the Realms", we get fostered with, "your relatives all have to be level 30 to play in the Realms".
We need to spread all of these ideas around, and not stick with any one. For instance, why not ONE uber iconic? Elminster being the obvious choice, of course. Then have the rest be 'normals', of various power levels (ranging from 1-12, and sticking closer to the low end). You know, like how it was back in 1e.
I'd rather not have Drizzt as an iconic, despite his qualifications. I think he has just as much negative baggage as positive. A child of his, perhaps, or someone else indirectly related to him (remember that little girl Wulfgar returned to her Momma? She should have grandkids by now). We want those connections - to help marry the editions back together (and heal the wounds of the edition wars), but we don't want to give any one group fuel to use against the setting - it can't survive another negative backlash like it endured in 4e.
So with the iconics, a little bit of everything, so everyone (players/readers) will have someone they can identify with. By giving a few of them those backwards connections, we will be able to learn more about the other characters we have lost, and those storylines can be finished.
For instance, lets get back to that little girl, Colson. Suppose her gandaughter was pictured in a (comic?) scene, and someone asked her about her past... about the last days Aukney...
"Ay, was bad time, that. I wasn't alive then, ya know, but me Da was. Just a child of 10, but he remembered it. He remembered how magic ran amok, and how the waves of undead came. He told me stories of my grandarm, Colson. Her beloved husband had died protecting the townsfolk as he ushered them into his keep, what few he could save. She stayed there, on the walls, shouting orders until the last. They say that just before she died, an army of wild barbarians came howling from the north, cutting a path through the hordes of dead, and she smiled... that smile staying upon her lips until the chief of those Northmen - a giant of man they say - laid her to rest in a grave a few miles from Auckney. You see, they managed to save a few, my father included, before they fled the scene of carnage. I hear similar things were happening everywhere in those terrible days."
The others had fallen silent. Dinthûlar poked at the coals of the dying fire, before muttering, "I'm off to bed". "Ya", said several others, "we have to be up earlier." Cathgar continued to sit there, though, a certain glistening discernible in her usually bright eyes, staring somberly into the red embers. "You coming, Cath?" asked her friend. Not even bothering to turn toward him, "No", she replied, "You go ahead. I still have some ghosts to lay to rest, Din". He knew her well enough to let her be, this amazing woman, heir to a past she would never inherit.
End interlude...
And thats it. Thats all the connection we would need. WE know enough, but we don't know too much. Thats how you sew the editons back together (IMHO). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2014 17:59:25 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 22:05:38
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| markustay..... the child wulfgar returned to her mother, that line passed out in the plague... ro something as mentioned in the companions. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 22:10:14
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That little story was...just...perfect MT. And yes, THATs how you do it. A few 'new' iconics (with no connection to the past that we know of) and a few with ties such as the one you just created. Have the Lhaeo descendant act as a go-to sage for the group with El as (possibly) a secret mentor for them (because he feels connected to some of them...namely those with ties to the original Knights) and you have a nice package of iconics without over using any one idea.
I would also say here, though, that we could have more than one group (although I would stop at two groups). This would allow for representatives from various organizations (can't have a Harper and a Zhent in the same band now can we)? There are several groups that could be used...but I still would only go with say four of them (two for each band). Say, the Harpers and perhaps a traveling Lord of Waterdeep in one with a Zhentarim and a Dragon Cultist in the other. I will admit, though, using the groups may be a bit much. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 22:13:37
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| And now that I think about it. Why wouldn't it be possible to have a Harper and a Zhent in the same group? Even Ed's original Knights (homebrew) had a Zhent spy in it (didn't it)? Whisper I believe the name was. It could illustrate how those who play in this wonderful world must always be savvy and on guard for treachery. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2014 : 04:59:55
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group shot of iconics???
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 01:23:53
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There remains an abundance of bleed through in the discussions here between the functional Iconics concept and the famous iconic character concept (who should be referred to as the Mighty as described in the FRCS sidebar).
Fans weren't supposed to get a "hard on" for the 3E Iconics, and likewise not for the Pathfinder Iconics. At the same time, they aren't standard DM NPCs or narrator-types either (brief vignettes aside). Iconics are a shared basis from which new players can use to jump into the setting. They're enhanced starting characters. They show people "look here's one of those weird adventurer types from this region" with a bit of added history and personality thrown into the mix to make them stand out from each other and stick in people's minds.
This discussion continually leans in the direction of connecting theoretical FR Iconics to the Mighty. In fact, every branch of this discussion loops back into the old NPC standbys. Keep in mind they're playable samples ("this is kind of how we set up typical characters in the Realms") and most certainly not the exalted Mighty or their progeny ("these characters are cool exceptions, often due to novel plot-armor, to the rules you must play by").
The Iconics are about who players can be, not who they can meet. In this way they refocus the introduction of players towards a more active player role rather than with yet another set of NPCs floating about in the lore, NPCs of which the Realms has plenty, but do not address the purpose of the Iconics.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 03:07:08
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I was only talking about applying that treatment to one or two, not all of them (and their could easily be 20+ eventually).
You could argue that Paizo didn't do it that way, but A) the idea is to do something NEW, and B) Paizo didn't have that option - they created their setting whole-cloth only recently. Had Golarion been 25+ years old, I can pretty-much guarantee you that a couple would have been related to 'important personages' (of the past, once their setting matures).
And I also said to keep them between levels 1-12, with most of them falling-out well into the low-end of that spectrum (how most of the NPCs were in the OGB).
I'm well aware of the 'bad aspects' of the FR setting (or at least, those aspects that certain parts of the fanbase perceived as bad). I was even reluctant to suggest having a couple related to past characters (and technically, Colson wasn't really related to anyone of note), out of fear that they would do it to a couple, and then every writer down the line would try to one-up the last, and by the end they'd all be the children of gods or some-such (because thats PRECISELY what happens in a shared setting... ALWAYS).
But if done right - with a delicate touch - it could add a level of awesome without jumping the shark. In fact, 'vague references' to things that happened in the past act as Easter-Eggs for the setting; fans love when they 'get' something others might not. Hell, Ed is the master at 'vague references to things that happened elsewhen'. Just let him write-up the iconics - can you think of anyone more qualified? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2014 03:08:20 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 04:04:42
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I wasn't trying to single you out Markus, and I'm not. While you stated you wanted one or two, it's all you and the other scribes talk about on this thread. It's not any one participant but the direction of the collective discussion.
I feel it particularly odd that a specific, well-defined topic can't move beyond the gravity of the Might famous NPCs and doing something "new" means back treading onto the coattails of the Big Boys. Especially when the topic's purpose was in part to dilute the Epic NPC perception.
Also, Golarion doesn't need to have 25+ years of publication history to implement strong links to legendary NPCs. Those types of NPCs do exist for the setting, it doesn't matter if they were originally created 40+ years ago for a young man's personal fictional world or if they were created five years ago to purposely fulfill archetypal requirement for a commercial fantasy setting.
If there was such a design goal for the Iconics, those connections would have been stuffed into their backgrounds regardless of how well-known the NPCs were at the time. Then the NPCs and the Iconics would have just developed in parallel. The Paizo would come across as having a sense of prescience.
Either way, those NPCs exist now (Aroden, Cayden, Old Mage Jatembe, Nex, Arazni, the Runelords, various rulers and famous personages, etc.). Since the Iconics are updated occasionally, the connections could be added or enhanced (old mentor was actually XYZ or orphan Iconic's parent was actually ABC).
Then again, this isn't about being against the connections so much as pointing out this discussion was virtually about nothing but the famous NPC connections. It's less about what Paizo did and more about what we're emphasizing with the Realms. I dislike using the term, but there's a bit of an 'echo chamber' in this thread where the focus sits heavy upon the famous NPC connections and hasn't really moved beyond that. As long-time fans of the setting, we're the first to point out the diversity and complexity of the setting, but here we're narrowing the scope of the setting where even a discussion about a sampling of average adventurers is dominated by who should be related to Elminster or somebody like him.
Levels are irrelevant to the Iconics, they scale with the adventure anyway. Discussions on keeping them level 1-12 is viewing them as traditional DM NPCs (nothing wrong with those, just not what Iconics are about).
Technically no one is better than Ed when it comes to designing/writing the Realms, but even he already answered why he likes the setting being out there in the wild, open to the interpretation of other designers, authors, and fans. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 13 Jan 2014 04:07:47 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 04:53:24
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Okay, I gotcha ya, and totally see where you're coming from.
The only problem is, if we don't talk about the 3e D&D iconics, and the 'iconic (legendary) FR characters', then there isn't much ground this thread can go into, really.
Suggestions for FR iconics? For instance, should we break all the stereo-types, or are a few not only acceptable, but mandatory? For instance, the 'Halfling thief', or the 'Barbarian Half-Orc'? If we change those (like a halfling wizard or half-orc priest) would it just be too weird and not easily accepted? waht about combining things in the Iconis? I guess it all depends upon the final rules, but we could have a half-orc Shaman (fighter/priest).
I was going to suggest a halfling bard, but then we are right back to Olive Ruskettle, and using known characters again (Now her, I wouldn't mind still being around - she'd be old, but still alive). Or perhaps someone who is just a lot like her, without any connections to her (and then let the fanbase create their own rumors). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2014 04:54:30 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 05:20:18
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Wooley did not specifically ask that this topic not include connections to past characters (or the MIGHTY)...he asked for our thoughts and that's what he has received thus far (and amicably I might add). There's no hard reason for any iconics to have connections to any specific person or place, but then there's no hard reason for any of them not too either. Also, I (amicably) disagree with the statement such characters "do not address the purpose of the Iconics." They can address the purpose of their use and still have connections to the past.
It's those connections that have, time and again, made the Realms come alive for many players. There are numerous examples of various characters in the Realms having some type of connection to others (Lashan, for instance, was descended from Elminster). There have been nods from Ed/THO that certain bloodlines can be traced to Chosen AND Mystra AND (perhaps) Mystryl even. I'm also convinced that there is royal blood in Vangerdahast's veins. Dare I say that such connections are, in fact, VERY Realmsian?
And in the end, we can still have an eclectic group of 'average' adventurers who aren't MIGHTY and glean very little (if any) advantage from their connections to past characters...MIGHTY or not. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 05:55:02
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I personally would not be in favor of connecting these theoretical Iconics to any of the iconic characters we already have; my ideal Iconics wouldn't be related to or descended from anyone famous, unless it was only a minor connection that could be easily ignored -- like someone being the grandchild of one of Azoun IV's many indiscretions. Part of what I see as the objective is to have fresh faces that can start as an entry point for new fans, and for something like that, I don't think making an overt connection to the big names is the ideal way to ease people in.
We've got a significant number of Realms NPCs that don't have connections to the major players... It shouldn't be too difficult to create some more.
I don't think a halfling bard would be immediately connected with Olive Ruskettle -- especially if the halfling was male. One of the staff folks at the Inn I've been on-again/off-again populating is a female halfling bard; that's just what works. I never would have made the Olive connection with her, because we no longer have class/race restrictions.
Since the advent of 3E, there is nothing remarkable about halfling bards, and even if there was, Olive Ruskettle is far from being one of the iconic characters of the setting. And again, even if she was, with it being 100+ years later, it's easy enough to say "This lady halfling bard was inspired by the example set by the noted bard Olive Ruskettle." |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2014 : 06:04:47
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Nothing wrong with talking about 3E D&D Iconics, it's on topic. we did that for a few post before veering off into the land of legends. ;)
There is limited room for legendary Realms NPCs to enter into this. Different meaning of 'iconic' altogether. Different level of influence, different conceptual space.
Groups can decided if they want the legendary in their campaign, but as a default I don't think it sends the right message, especially when we're talking about Elminster's spawn even several generations removed, Lhaeo's descendants (technically royal lineage), or something Drizzt related (in jest I know, but still). These are the big guns who have dominated the mind-share of the Realms out there in the real world for the last two decades. They're doing fine on their own. I would hope the Realms can do fine without using them as crutches.
Thunderstorm and Alissa are probably better fodder for this, since they're iconic, but not legendary and not epic (though Thunderstorm is so old school he should be able to make most of the legendaries eat their scrolls and shake them down for loose coin). While it's fun to think about, it's stretching things a bit that the oldest faces for the setting end up as variable level adventurer grunts (and survived a century of turmoil while apparently human, and...).
Olive Ruskettle is in the same category as Thunderstorm, established but not Epic or Legendary. Olive herself also brings with her questions about living through a century and still adventuring like the green recruits. The idea about creating a similar character, even one of the same age and dropping the hints instead of just flat out stating they're grandchildren is intriguing. This is the direction this should go if we're advocating connections to the past at all.
Still, it does leave a fairly heavy burden on any player. What if the person playing Olive is new to the game/Realms and the rest of the party are veterans and they've already decided the new "Oli" is in fact Olive. What undue expectations are forced onto the new player? Remember Olive is a novel character and not meant to be a player character. The novels that feature her are from the early '90s, now over twenty years past. To play the character, would the player be encouraged to track down old novels that may be older than they are?
Do you see why I think bringing known characters into this is detrimental to the purpose of the Iconics acting as low impedance gateways into the setting?
We would be perfectly fine having a halfling bard with nothing to do with Olive or any other known halfling bard, or any other known halfling, or any other known bard. What's the problem with thinking of new characters (Realms appropriate characters, but new nonetheless)? I hope new is not something outside of the box for the Realms.
Saying that, the competition has also increased since the 3E days. We have the Pathfinder Iconics to consider. It would be wise to avoid any combination too similar to their set, if only to not seem the copy cat (and branding, etc.). The Iconic bard for Pathfinder is Lem, a halfling.
Utterly gonzo combinations may also have trouble working, but who's to say anything is strange anymore (we're in the post-3E era after all).
This reply is getting long. Let me think about a worthwhile suggestion so I can put my money where my mouth is.
Edit (new replies while I was composing mine):
@ Arcanamach
Wooly may not have stated it, but from the wording I felt there was an indication no connection was what he meant and from the example set from 3E and PF, a strong indication of that direction. His recent reply confirms it.
You're right, there's nothing preventing the connection, but as you said it would be minor. Then why really have it at all?
It is a distraction. It's fan service.
It's potentially a situation that puts some new fans at a disadvantage in not knowing the true 'potential' of their character and others in the group do. I'm not saying coddle people with generic characters all the time, but for an intro set of playable characters, maybe it would be best to keep things straight forward, not basic or dumbed down, but not involving characters who have literally been alive longer than the player (and dozens of novels, etc).
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Edited by - Dark Wizard on 13 Jan 2014 21:01:57 |
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Idea: 5E/Next Iconics
