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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 23:30:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
To me, it makes perfect sense what happened to Karsus. He went from 'mortal comprehension' to that of THE most power Greater Power in Realmspace instantly. Most beings go through the usual demi-, lesser, and intermediate stages. He went from being the best player in the 'Pee-Wee Leagues' to the NFL. He was gifted, and methodical, but he was too uncaring - he did what he did out of Hubris, not for any love of his people.
All of that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the same exact thing happened to Midnight, and she was able to handle it. Karsus was a genius, and yet he couldn't. However, that bit of strangeness is a great 'out' for us (or Ed, or whoever). It seems to me (more assumptions - I feel a need to constantly point that out now...) that Midnight did not receive the complete power of the Weave, and we have some evidence to support that. We know that Chosen and other magical powers (like Azuth and Severas, but we could include Velsharoon and perhaps even deities like Corellon and Thoth) held a portion of her power, but I think post-ToT more of her power was 'stored elsewhere' then in her previous incarnations.
What that does is make her somewhat weaker then her predecessors, more vulnerable then them, explains how Shar managed to grab a bit of it (did Ao actually give it to her?), and how she was able to handle something Karsus could not. All of that fixes a bunch of continuity oddities. I think the 3e Chosen were far more powerful then they were when the OGB came out. Midnight was Ao's "finger in a dyke", she was never meant to be a 'permanent fix'. Like any 'patch', it was never as strong as the original. (IMHO)
This also fits directly into the (new) Sundering material - Ao was just waiting for the patch to blow-out and the feces to hit the fan.
Personally, I think it has more to do with being prepared for divinity, prior to apotheosis. Midnight was already holding some of Mystra 1.0's power, and she was then elevated at the command of Ao. He sponsored her apotheosis, if you will. Karsus didn't have that preparation, and his elevation wasn't sponsored -- so it went BOOM.
That mirrors my thoughts pretty
Close. I always assumed she handled it because AO approved and handled the "transaction" if you will. I see Karsus's attempt as a hijacking...and the instant he grabbed the power....it rebounded violently as he could only grasp it, but not hold it. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 20 Oct 2012 02:47:42 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 02:17:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What doesn't make sense is the same exact thing happened to Midnight, and she was able to handle it. Karsus was a genius, and yet he couldn't.
Karsus also didn't have Chosen to help him acclimate to the position he violently assumed, nor did he inherit any of Mystryl's divine intent to help him handle the power. Midnight, on the other hand, had the benefit of help from the Mystra's Chosen, and, perhaps, Mystryl's will in helping to bring Midnight fully into the role of becoming the new Goddess of Magic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 02:20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
To me, it makes perfect sense what happened to Karsus. He went from 'mortal comprehension' to that of THE most power Greater Power in Realmspace instantly. Most beings go through the usual demi-, lesser, and intermediate stages. He went from being the best player in the 'Pee-Wee Leagues' to the NFL. He was gifted, and methodical, but he was too uncaring - he did what he did out of Hubris, not for any love of his people.
All of that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the same exact thing happened to Midnight, and she was able to handle it. Karsus was a genius, and yet he couldn't. However, that bit of strangeness is a great 'out' for us (or Ed, or whoever). It seems to me (more assumptions - I feel a need to constantly point that out now...) that Midnight did not receive the complete power of the Weave, and we have some evidence to support that. We know that Chosen and other magical powers (like Azuth and Severas, but we could include Velsharoon and perhaps even deities like Corellon and Thoth) held a portion of her power, but I think post-ToT more of her power was 'stored elsewhere' then in her previous incarnations.
What that does is make her somewhat weaker then her predecessors, more vulnerable then them, explains how Shar managed to grab a bit of it (did Ao actually give it to her?), and how she was able to handle something Karsus could not. All of that fixes a bunch of continuity oddities. I think the 3e Chosen were far more powerful then they were when the OGB came out. Midnight was Ao's "finger in a dyke", she was never meant to be a 'permanent fix'. Like any 'patch', it was never as strong as the original. (IMHO)
This also fits directly into the (new) Sundering material - Ao was just waiting for the patch to blow-out and the feces to hit the fan.
Personally, I think it has more to do with being prepared for divinity, prior to apotheosis. Midnight was already holding some of Mystra 1.0's power, and she was then elevated at the command of Ao. He sponsored her apotheosis, if you will. Karsus didn't have that preparation, and his elevation wasn't sponsored -- so it went BOOM.
That mirrors my thoughts pretty
Close. I always assumed she handled it because AO approved and handled the "transa tion" if you will. I see Karsus's attempt as a hijacking...and the instant he grabbed the power....it rebounded violently as he could only grasp it, but not hold it.
Interesting theory. One wonders whether Ao would've deliberately set up the Mystryl's relationship with the Weave in such a manner as a way of providing a redundancy of sorts, should something like the Mad Power Grab of Karsus occur. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 03:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Midnight's worse than Karsus. If Karsus were allowed to spend at least a year as the God of Magic, he could have done a better job at it.
Because I'm curious, I want to ask how you could possibly even make that assumption, Dennis, given the flicker of time that Karsus spent in the *role* when compared to Midnight's time as Mystra?
Agreed. He couldn't handle it for a minute.
'Couldn't handle it' is not quite the right way to put. He was forced to relinquish it. When Mystryl killed herself, magic ceased to function normally for a few moments. With such malfunction, no being, divine or otherwise, could utilize magic.
quote:
I don't see how he could have done better at managing magic than the deity who had been doing that job since the Weave came into existence.
If it was just Mystra/Mystryl, probably it's okay. But the personality of Mystra 2.0 was more Midnight than her predecessor. That's where the problem is. She was more concerned with her love interest than securing the stability of the Weave. In a way, she was worse than Cyric. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 04:05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Midnight's worse than Karsus. If Karsus were allowed to spend at least a year as the God of Magic, he could have done a better job at it.
Because I'm curious, I want to ask how you could possibly even make that assumption, Dennis, given the flicker of time that Karsus spent in the *role* when compared to Midnight's time as Mystra?
Agreed. He couldn't handle it for a minute.
'Couldn't handle it' is not quite the right way to put. He was forced to relinquish it. When Mystryl killed herself, magic ceased to function normally for a few moments. With such malfunction, no being, divine or otherwise, could utilize magic.
Has this been specifically stated in canon? Because I can't recall anything to that effect at the moment.
quote:
quote:
I don't see how he could have done better at managing magic than the deity who had been doing that job since the Weave came into existence.
If it was just Mystra/Mystryl, probably it's okay. But the personality of Mystra 2.0 was more Midnight than her predecessor. That's where the problem is. She was more concerned with her love interest than securing the stability of the Weave. In a way, she was worse than Cyric.
When did Mystra 2.0 display more interest about her love affairs than tending to the needs of the Weave? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 04:10:38
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I think some folk -- especially those considering the Mystra/Midnight dynamic -- are overlooking the fact that the former mortal Midnight is only a small part of Mystra's divine spiritual body, like the submerged pilot of a massively greater consciousness. We have a good picture of this in some of Ed Greenwood's fiction. Midnight did not replace Mystra -- a small mortal soul couldn't take the place of a vastly more-than-human greater god identical to the magical structure of the world -- but merged with her, replacing the part that died in the Godswar. Thus, Mystra 2.0.
Attributing Midnight's problems to Mystra 2.0, thus, really doesn't work, when you take Ed's writings on Mystra 2.0 into account. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 04:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Agreed. He couldn't handle it for a minute.
'Couldn't handle it' is not quite the right way to put. He was forced to relinquish it. When Mystryl killed herself, magic ceased to function normally for a few moments. With such malfunction, no being, divine or otherwise, could utilize magic.
Has this been specifically stated in canon? Because I can't recall anything to that effect at the moment.
From Dangerous Games:
quote:
Rather than allow herself to be usurped, rather than have her powers stolen, rather than let Karsus become a god, the Mother of All Magic sacrificed herself. With the last powers of this greatest of gods, she wished herself out of existence, and vanished.
And took all the magic in the world with her.
The Phaerimm, who were magic to their core, disappeared.
Karsus was left alone in the room, hovering, struggling to keep the magic within himself. But the might of the fallen star was gone, vanished, as if it had never existed. The mage clenched his fists and cried in rage and frustration and sorrow.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 05:15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
'Couldn't handle it' is not quite the right way to put. He was forced to relinquish it. When Mystryl killed herself, magic ceased to function normally for a few moments. With such malfunction, no being, divine or otherwise, could utilize magic.
He was forced to relinquish it because it got out of control the second he grabbed it. So yes, he couldn't handle it. That's canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If it was just Mystra/Mystryl, probably it's okay. But the personality of Mystra 2.0 was more Midnight than her predecessor. That's where the problem is. She was more concerned with her love interest than securing the stability of the Weave. In a way, she was worse than Cyric.
Yeah, that was part of the plot of a single novel and never had any in-game effect. And it was resolved in that one novel. I fail to see how this makes her so bad, and I really fail to see how not relinquishing one's former humanity is worse than driving oneself crazy by reading your own book of lies. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 05:27:45
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And let's examine the canon about Karsus's folly...
quote:
Karsus, the Momentary God, was a mortal who achieved divinity for but a brief instant before being destroyed by the folly of his own overweening arrogance and ambition.
quote:
Knowledge has always outweighed wisdom in the minds of the ambitious, and Karsus was no exception.
quote:
Karsus instantly realized the horrible mistake he had made, but he knew there was nothing he could to stop the inevitable.
quote:
When Mystryl lost her ability to maintain the Weave's integrity, Karsus was ill-equipped to serve in her stead. The Weave began to fluctuate wildly, and the lands of Netheril and beyond were inundated with a flood of raw magic which surged and ebbed with far greater power and destructive force than had ever been seen before.
Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the Weave before the damage became irreparable.
quote:
Karsus's heart broke as he realized that his greed for the power of the deities themselves had caused the destruction of his home, his family, his friends, and his people. Even in his death, his heart still bleeds. Through the magic of the Dire Wood, Karsus is bound in eternal torment to relive repeatedly the moment he became aware of his folly.
That's all from page 35 of Powers & Pantheons. So it's canon that Karsus made a mad power grab, couldn't handle it, and realized he couldn't handle it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 06:42:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Agreed. He couldn't handle it for a minute.
'Couldn't handle it' is not quite the right way to put. He was forced to relinquish it. When Mystryl killed herself, magic ceased to function normally for a few moments. With such malfunction, no being, divine or otherwise, could utilize magic.
Has this been specifically stated in canon? Because I can't recall anything to that effect at the moment.
From Dangerous Games:
quote:
Rather than allow herself to be usurped, rather than have her powers stolen, rather than let Karsus become a god, the Mother of All Magic sacrificed herself. With the last powers of this greatest of gods, she wished herself out of existence, and vanished.
And took all the magic in the world with her.
The Phaerimm, who were magic to their core, disappeared.
Karsus was left alone in the room, hovering, struggling to keep the magic within himself. But the might of the fallen star was gone, vanished, as if it had never existed. The mage clenched his fists and cried in rage and frustration and sorrow.
The key word here, is struggling, which indicates, pretty simply, that Karsus couldn't handle it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 06:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And let's examine the canon about Karsus's folly...
quote:
Karsus, the Momentary God, was a mortal who achieved divinity for but a brief instant before being destroyed by the folly of his own overweening arrogance and ambition.
quote:
Knowledge has always outweighed wisdom in the minds of the ambitious, and Karsus was no exception.
quote:
Karsus instantly realized the horrible mistake he had made, but he knew there was nothing he could to stop the inevitable.
quote:
When Mystryl lost her ability to maintain the Weave's integrity, Karsus was ill-equipped to serve in her stead. The Weave began to fluctuate wildly, and the lands of Netheril and beyond were inundated with a flood of raw magic which surged and ebbed with far greater power and destructive force than had ever been seen before.
Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the Weave before the damage became irreparable.
quote:
Karsus's heart broke as he realized that his greed for the power of the deities themselves had caused the destruction of his home, his family, his friends, and his people. Even in his death, his heart still bleeds. Through the magic of the Dire Wood, Karsus is bound in eternal torment to relive repeatedly the moment he became aware of his folly.
That's all from page 35 of Powers & Pantheons. So it's canon that Karsus made a mad power grab, couldn't handle it, and realized he couldn't handle it.
And it all pretty much reinforces what I said earlier, about Ed's writings on Mystra 2.0 indicating that Mystra and the Weave, truly are a unique relationship that can't be easily reproduced -- especially by mortals. Even supposedly "genius" mortals like Karsus. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 07:06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Agreed. He couldn't handle it for a minute.
'Couldn't handle it' is not quite the right way to put. He was forced to relinquish it. When Mystryl killed herself, magic ceased to function normally for a few moments. With such malfunction, no being, divine or otherwise, could utilize magic.
Has this been specifically stated in canon? Because I can't recall anything to that effect at the moment.
From Dangerous Games:
quote:
Rather than allow herself to be usurped, rather than have her powers stolen, rather than let Karsus become a god, the Mother of All Magic sacrificed herself. With the last powers of this greatest of gods, she wished herself out of existence, and vanished.
And took all the magic in the world with her.
The Phaerimm, who were magic to their core, disappeared.
Karsus was left alone in the room, hovering, struggling to keep the magic within himself. But the might of the fallen star was gone, vanished, as if it had never existed. The mage clenched his fists and cried in rage and frustration and sorrow.
The key word here, is struggling, which indicates, pretty simply, that Karsus couldn't handle it.
Incorrect. There's nothing to "handle" because it vanished in the first place, at the moment of Mystra's suicide. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 08:30:35
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It's not incorrect.
For the briefest of divine moments, Karsus and the Weave were one. Mystryl herself acknowledges that in the excerpt you've posted. She regarded Karsus as a threat to the Weave. It doesn't matter whether it later vanished with Mystryl's suicide. Karsus connected with the Weave enough in order to present himself as a threat -- that of stripping it's power for Mystryl.
And we learn again, in a later sourcebook -- 3e's Magic of Faerûn -- that Karsus himself realises he is "unqualified" for the role of God of Magic. This is noted *before* Mystryl sacrifices herself. If that doesn't suggest that he struggled to handle the power in the moment of contact, then I'm not sure where this discussion really has left to go. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 20 Oct 2012 08:31:51 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 11:30:14
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While we don't have any canon evidence for this, I have always wondered if his spell didn't function perfectly. It worked well enough to allow him to gain the weave, but maybe the spell was flawed in regards to allowing him to handle it. Perhaps if he had worked on the spell a bit more he would have been able to actually of handled the weave. Just a thought, it's more likely that it's like others have said, he needed to be prepared and sponsered as Midnight was. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 16:47:31
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| I think the main problem was that he aimed too high. His spell might have worked on someone like Savras or maybe even Azuth . Surely even having demi god level divine powers would have been enough to solve Netherils problem but his overweening ambition and massive ego would never allow him to play second fiddle. So he over reached, failed horrifically and destroyed everything he cared about. |
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boards
Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 09:29:58
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"The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now." From Ed's quote.
My introduction to FR was from Elminster in Myth Drannor, where Mystra was assumed by the Elves to be a human only goddess, so until I started getting into the source books that was always my assumption. Humans needed Mystra to use wizardly magic, elves didn't because they were more connected to the weave or got it through Corellon. What I disliked about Mystra in the setting was that even priests of other gods still went through the weave (and thus Mystra) to get their spells. And this expanded into Mystra being able to prevent the gods from giving priests magic. So I would like to see Mystra come back, but only as the goddess of magic for humans. All other races should go through their own gods, or through a better connection to magic than humans. Priests would gain their magic, not through the weave but drawing on the Planar energies of their gods realms.
As for Mystra being the most powerful and thus needing to have chosen to limit her, from what I can recall earlier write ups had it that she created Chosen after the fall of Netheril as an anchor incase anything like this happened again and it was only later that the power limiting came into effect. Or am I totally off base on this? |
Edited by - boards on 21 Oct 2012 09:31:43 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 13:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by boards
"The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now." From Ed's quote.
My introduction to FR was from Elminster in Myth Drannor, where Mystra was assumed by the Elves to be a human only goddess, so until I started getting into the source books that was always my assumption. Humans needed Mystra to use wizardly magic, elves didn't because they were more connected to the weave or got it through Corellon. What I disliked about Mystra in the setting was that even priests of other gods still went through the weave (and thus Mystra) to get their spells. And this expanded into Mystra being able to prevent the gods from giving priests magic. So I would like to see Mystra come back, but only as the goddess of magic for humans. All other races should go through their own gods, or through a better connection to magic than humans. Priests would gain their magic, not through the weave but drawing on the Planar energies of their gods realms.
As for Mystra being the most powerful and thus needing to have chosen to limit her, from what I can recall earlier write ups had it that she created Chosen after the fall of Netheril as an anchor incase anything like this happened again and it was only later that the power limiting came into effect. Or am I totally off base on this?
Well I think they anchored in so much as they held parts of her power, so no one could grab all of it as once. And she wouldnt hold enough off her power to go around re-arranging the pantheon.. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 21 Oct 2012 13:40:12 |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 18:13:32
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| I frimly believe we need a goddess/god of magic not because there is magic but because it acts like more like a guardian of the weave/shadow weave. The goddess of magic the role is to maintain balance of the arcane energies not to please the mortals. I mean even though Ao made the gods more reliant on mortal worshippers as whole and make them responsible in the believers. Magic needs a guardian more than a goddess where she/he is much more independent of the mortals. |
"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 20:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Lunarbeams
I frimly believe we need a goddess/god of magic not because there is magic but because it acts like more like a guardian of the weave/shadow weave. The goddess of magic the role is to maintain balance of the arcane energies not to please the mortals. I mean even though Ao made the gods more reliant on mortal worshippers as whole and make them responsible in the believers. Magic needs a guardian more than a goddess where she/he is much more independent of the mortals.
The more I've thought about it over time... I see there being several roles for controller of the weave.
Primarily, I see them/her/him/it as more of an administrator. Spells are constantly needing to be "tweaked" and thus the parameters of the spells change with time. This "administrator" aspect would make sure that the weave of Toril works like the spell medium of other primes (or possibly DOESN'T work like other primes, and that decision is actively made). All spells are essentially a "construct" that is called upon through spellcasting to deliver magic in a certain format. Spell Research essentially creates new "constructs" (possibly automatically if it meets criteria, possibly with the approval of the administrator). This "administrator" would also be responsible for maintaining what types of spellcasters get access to what types of spells.
Next would be the "guardian" aspect of the weave, in which the controller of the weave makes sure that everyone has the right access and can't "siphon" power. This aspect would be the version that we think of with the Chosen involvement.
Next would be the "power sourcing" aspect of the weave. This aspect would take in "power" from various sources and "weave" them together into a stable form. This theoretically could fall under one of the other aspects, or it could be maintained separately.
Next would be the "item endowment" aspect of the weave. This would be somewhat similiar to the administrator aspect, but this aspect would involve themselves with the controlling access allowed to items themselves. A particularly interesting side aspect of this is that this aspect would oversee the linking of actual intelligence's to the weave.
Now, I'm not saying that there needs to be 4 gods of magic. I'm just saying that these are the roles I see the "gods" of magic fulfilling... and those roles could be sliced many different ways. The administrator role would be by far the most active, and therefore the role could be split amongst multiple gods by school, or by element type, or by spellcaster type, or even by alignment. Meanwhile, the "guardian" aspect of the weave could actually fall upon the shoulders of a single guardian... or even multiple guardians who protect the weave from each other as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 22:28:39
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I haven't read Dangerous Games in a long time (like 12+ years), but I did want to weigh in on this passage Dennis quoted, in the context of this discussion and a larger caveat about applying novels too quickly to "canon." I wouldn't rely too greatly on the passage, and here's why:
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
From Dangerous Games:
quote:
Rather than allow herself to be usurped, rather than have her powers stolen, rather than let Karsus become a god, the Mother of All Magic sacrificed herself. With the last powers of this greatest of gods, she wished herself out of existence, and vanished.
And took all the magic in the world with her.
The Phaerimm, who were magic to their core, disappeared.
Karsus was left alone in the room, hovering, struggling to keep the magic within himself. But the might of the fallen star was gone, vanished, as if it had never existed. The mage clenched his fists and cried in rage and frustration and sorrow.
The passage in itself is contradictory. If Mystra "took all the magic in the world with her," then what magic is Karsus "struggling to keep ... within himself"? The magic can't both have vanished AND be there inside him.
This suggests that "took all the magic in the world with her" shouldn't be interpreted literally. A more accurate statement would be "took all the control of magic in the world with her" or "took the bulk of the magic in the world with her," which would suggest that maybe what Mystra did was cut off magic from the world so that it wouldn't go wild and destroy everything (ala Spellplague) as soon as Karsus lost control of it (which he was clearly doing). It's kind of a tricky and ambiguous passage.
My second point is that one should be careful of applying statements in novels to actual canon. Yes, novels are "canon" (the events depicted do indeed happen), but we are always seeing those events through a particular perspective.
Usually, this is a mortal character, and usually this character has only a partial or at least prejudiced perspective and forms an interpretation that is molded by experience/culture/etc of that character. An elven high mage and a lowly halfling thief will have radically different interpretations of the same event, as will a human wizard driven mad by hubris and DETERMINED not to view his failure and the destruction of his world as his fault, so that he would rather see it as a goddess spitefully destroying the world rather than sharing power.
A destruction of the world which DID NOT, in fact, happen--only the fall of Netheril and the destruction of that empire. Maybe Karsus's world ended, but Toril kept turning.
So on the hierarchy of canon lore sources, novels are lower than sourcebooks.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 23:02:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Lunarbeams
I frimly believe we need a goddess/god of magic not because there is magic but because it acts like more like a guardian of the weave/shadow weave. The goddess of magic the role is to maintain balance of the arcane energies not to please the mortals. I mean even though Ao made the gods more reliant on mortal worshippers as whole and make them responsible in the believers. Magic needs a guardian more than a goddess where she/he is much more independent of the mortals.
The more I've thought about it over time... I see there being several roles for controller of the weave.
Primarily, I see them/her/him/it as more of an administrator. Spells are constantly needing to be "tweaked" and thus the parameters of the spells change with time. This "administrator" aspect would make sure that the weave of Toril works like the spell medium of other primes (or possibly DOESN'T work like other primes, and that decision is actively made). All spells are essentially a "construct" that is called upon through spellcasting to deliver magic in a certain format. Spell Research essentially creates new "constructs" (possibly automatically if it meets criteria, possibly with the approval of the administrator). This "administrator" would also be responsible for maintaining what types of spellcasters get access to what types of spells.
Next would be the "guardian" aspect of the weave, in which the controller of the weave makes sure that everyone has the right access and can't "siphon" power. This aspect would be the version that we think of with the Chosen involvement.
Next would be the "power sourcing" aspect of the weave. This aspect would take in "power" from various sources and "weave" them together into a stable form. This theoretically could fall under one of the other aspects, or it could be maintained separately.
Next would be the "item endowment" aspect of the weave. This would be somewhat similiar to the administrator aspect, but this aspect would involve themselves with the controlling access allowed to items themselves. A particularly interesting side aspect of this is that this aspect would oversee the linking of actual intelligence's to the weave.
Now, I'm not saying that there needs to be 4 gods of magic. I'm just saying that these are the roles I see the "gods" of magic fulfilling... and those roles could be sliced many different ways. The administrator role would be by far the most active, and therefore the role could be split amongst multiple gods by school, or by element type, or by spellcaster type, or even by alignment. Meanwhile, the "guardian" aspect of the weave could actually fall upon the shoulders of a single guardian... or even multiple guardians who protect the weave from each other as well.
Like the Krynn system. Where there is Solinari(good), Lunitari (Neutral), and Nuitari (Evil) all gods/goddess of magic working based off the alignment system. But when it came to a threat towards magic they acted like a council more than a god. It is even more of balance of energies.
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"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 23:46:18
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I still firmly believe that from a storyline point of view, keeping Mystra dead and presenting her and the weave as fragments of a bygone age that the world of Toril has outgrown and left in the past is more powerful than her returning. I just like the message it sends; that nothing, not even the gods and their works, are beyond the reach of the passage of time and even something once thought fundamental can become outdated. It's not something I'd like to see overdone, but using it in this specific instance really tells a potent story in my opinion.
And from a gamer/DM point of view, leaving Mystra dead makes the most sense because restoring her divinity, or preventing that from happening, is the ultimate campaign hook. You can run a full thirty level campaign off of that alone. Bringing Mystra back in canon really just ties into the uber npc thread; the ultimate adventure, something the pc's would be perfectly suited for and would want to do, is already done for them. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 04:37:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Lunarbeams
I frimly believe we need a goddess/god of magic not because there is magic but because it acts like more like a guardian of the weave/shadow weave. The goddess of magic the role is to maintain balance of the arcane energies not to please the mortals. I mean even though Ao made the gods more reliant on mortal worshippers as whole and make them responsible in the believers. Magic needs a guardian more than a goddess where she/he is much more independent of the mortals.
The more I've thought about it over time... I see there being several roles for controller of the weave.
Primarily, I see them/her/him/it as more of an administrator. Spells are constantly needing to be "tweaked" and thus the parameters of the spells change with time. This "administrator" aspect would make sure that the weave of Toril works like the spell medium of other primes (or possibly DOESN'T work like other primes, and that decision is actively made). All spells are essentially a "construct" that is called upon through spellcasting to deliver magic in a certain format. Spell Research essentially creates new "constructs" (possibly automatically if it meets criteria, possibly with the approval of the administrator). This "administrator" would also be responsible for maintaining what types of spellcasters get access to what types of spells.
Next would be the "guardian" aspect of the weave, in which the controller of the weave makes sure that everyone has the right access and can't "siphon" power. This aspect would be the version that we think of with the Chosen involvement.
Next would be the "power sourcing" aspect of the weave. This aspect would take in "power" from various sources and "weave" them together into a stable form. This theoretically could fall under one of the other aspects, or it could be maintained separately.
Next would be the "item endowment" aspect of the weave. This would be somewhat similiar to the administrator aspect, but this aspect would involve themselves with the controlling access allowed to items themselves. A particularly interesting side aspect of this is that this aspect would oversee the linking of actual intelligence's to the weave.
Now, I'm not saying that there needs to be 4 gods of magic. I'm just saying that these are the roles I see the "gods" of magic fulfilling... and those roles could be sliced many different ways. The administrator role would be by far the most active, and therefore the role could be split amongst multiple gods by school, or by element type, or by spellcaster type, or even by alignment. Meanwhile, the "guardian" aspect of the weave could actually fall upon the shoulders of a single guardian... or even multiple guardians who protect the weave from each other as well.
This gave me an interesting thought: what if there WAS a pantheon of deities of magic, hypothetically speaking? I mean, most, if not all the races have a pantheon of gods. Obviously, magic isn't confined to one race, but magic-users may favor a type of magic. Maybe sorcerers would even worship a different god of magic than wizards.
Granted, this is coming from someone who wasn't fond of certain gods becoming aspects of each other (ex Hanali and Sune), but it's a thought. I don't think Ao would do it though. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 23:25:15
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| I don't remember which sourcebook it was, but there was one that mentioned a "pantheon" of gods concerned with a specific subject. There are the draconic gods in the Draconomicon, of course, some of whom overlap with other deities, and there is the "sea" pantheon from Stormwrack, But I do recall seeing a group of gods of magic in one book or another, and the idea was intriguing. now that I think about it, it might have been the Plot and Poison d20 book, which seems to have had multiple gods of various aspects of life and magic for drow. but this idea could be expanded to encomapss other races, as well. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 21:55:46
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Velsharoon, Savras, Azuth, Parrafaire (Abjuration), Malyk (maybe they could pull him away from being an aspect of Talos...I wrote a short story about "Malyk" choosing a mortal successor as the other Gods prevent him from maintaining this guise), Finder (bardic magic?) and Leira (if she returns to life somehow, or if it is before the time of troubles) seem like a pantheon of magic to me. In my own realms that I write about because I don't like 4e realms Dweomheart is inhabited by:
Velsharoon
Savras
Azuth
Parrafaire (sp?)
Malyka (a female Air genasi who takes the mantle of divinity then pulls away from Talos, like Velsharoon did)
Kered (a god of Sword mages. :S This is the name I always used in the Baldur's Gate games)
Midnight (Mystra reborn but much weaker)
Set
Leira
I explain the ressurections with a "Dawn Restructuring" to undo damage caused by the Dawn Cataclysm, Time of Troubles, and Spellplague...although not completely.
Finder is a god of magic but I have him dwelling in Selune's divine realm (that I call Elysium because I don't like the name Gates of the Moon) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2012 : 01:09:27
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I explain the ressurections with a "Dawn Restructuring" to undo damage caused by the Dawn Cataclysm, Time of Troubles, and Spellplague...although not completely.
Have you discerned what happened to Tyche in your Dawn Restructuring? |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2012 : 04:03:34
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I didn't think about it actually. I had them remain separate as Beshaba and Tymora.
I prefer the idea of the deities not being from real world mythology so Oghma, Silvanus, and Mieliekki are gone. I decided Oghma, Silvanus and Lathander did the dawn restructuring and some Gods came alive while others split apart from their multispheric origins to only have a Torilian identity or were banished. For Oghma: Deneir returns to life and takes over knowledge, and Finder takes over the sphere of "Bards". Curna, Zionil, Murdane, and Shesat (a minor Mulhorandi demigoddess) take over other roles. Adon (from the Shadowdale, Tantras, Waterdeep novels) becomes a deity of youth, vitality, physical perfection, etc. Shiallia, Gwaeron, Lurue, Emmantiensien, and Ubtao take over Silvanus and Mielikki's roles.
This is also returned people to life in large numbers (from different times in history) and changed some people (a more logical explanation in my mind then tens of thousands of people being "secretly" Genasi.......)
I posted my own deity list before but people did not seem overly interested. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2012 : 04:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Velsharoon, Savras, Azuth, Parrafaire (Abjuration), Malyk (maybe they could pull him away from being an aspect of Talos...I wrote a short story about "Malyk" choosing a mortal successor as the other Gods prevent him from maintaining this guise), Finder (bardic magic?) and Leira (if she returns to life somehow, or if it is before the time of troubles) seem like a pantheon of magic to me. In my own realms that I write about because I don't like 4e realms Dweomheart is inhabited by:
Velsharoon
Savras
Azuth
Parrafaire (sp?)
Malyka (a female Air genasi who takes the mantle of divinity then pulls away from Talos, like Velsharoon did)
Kered (a god of Sword mages. :S This is the name I always used in the Baldur's Gate games)
Midnight (Mystra reborn but much weaker)
Set
Leira
I explain the ressurections with a "Dawn Restructuring" to undo damage caused by the Dawn Cataclysm, Time of Troubles, and Spellplague...although not completely.
Finder is a god of magic but I have him dwelling in Selune's divine realm (that I call Elysium because I don't like the name Gates of the Moon)
*taps chin* that's true, though I'll admit I am not familiar with Set, Kered, Parrafaire, and Malyka, and it seems like most, if not all of the magical deities are dead.
@MrHedgeHog: I don't believe I've seen your deity list, and I'd be interested to look at it  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2012 : 06:20:00
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| Set as in the Egyptian God Set. Parrafaire is a naga deity. Malyk was an aspect of Talos that he created to try to steal some of Mystra's power. Kered is my imaginary Bhaalspawn who accepts deityhood. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2012 : 06:45:03
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| Oh, all right, that makes more sense then. Sorry, I was confused. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Topic |
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Do we need a god/dess of magic?
