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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2012 :  13:57:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

It may make sense, but you can't blame other people if they want there be no uberdeity of magic, because in other settings, such thing exists. I'll cite Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician Trilogy (and its sequels and prequel) as an example. The unnamed setting in that series is a high magic world, yet there's not a single god/dess of magic, or of anything. It's an almost perfect example of a humanocentric setting.

Every beginning has an end.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2012 :  14:48:02  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

@CoA: haha really? Well, Ed is a genius and I thank him for creating this wonderful world, but yes, I think other gods should have Chosen (or the equivelant thereof)too. Only fair.



It has nothing to do with being fair. Mystra has Chosen as a way of limiting her power, and also as a way to help with the Weave. Mystra is the most powerful deity of the setting, and her Chosen are a sort of balance on her power.

I have no objection with other deities having some sort of special divine servants, but they shouldn't be called Chosen, and they shouldn't have near the power level as those elevated servants of the most powerful deity in the setting.



Which is one of the reasons I've enjoyed the time she's been gone. I don't feel the need for one of the greater deities to be so much more powerful than the others, nor do I feel the need for there to be several powerful agents of said uberdeity roaming around the world.



Well then you never really appreciated what the realms were pre spell plague, and that's fine....but there are many of us , that this change was our deal breaker....the one thing that could never be rectified with prior canon. In my mind no Mystra(or an equivalent) = not the forgotten realms. It's a high magic setting , with magic pervading every aspect of life, much more so than the average realms mortal understands. I can't see it without a god of magic or without Chosen to promote m,agin,

What we need to be clear about is, 99.9999999% of what the Chosen did, was offscreen and had tiny footprints, like placing a scroll or low level magic item where a villager could find it and be inspired to study magic.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2012 :  14:50:00  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


It may make sense, but you can't blame other people if they want there be no uberdeity of magic, because in other settings, such thing exists. I'll cite Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician Trilogy (and its sequels and prequel) as an example. The unnamed setting in that series is a high magic world, yet there's not a single god/dess of magic, or of anything. It's an almost perfect example of a humanocentric setting.



The realms is NOT another setting. If its not your cup of tea try another, don't mess up my blend.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2012 :  18:08:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


It may make sense, but you can't blame other people if they want there be no uberdeity of magic, because in other settings, such thing exists. I'll cite Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician Trilogy (and its sequels and prequel) as an example. The unnamed setting in that series is a high magic world, yet there's not a single god/dess of magic, or of anything. It's an almost perfect example of a humanocentric setting.



The realms is NOT another setting. If its not your cup of tea try another, don't mess up my blend.



I have to agree. What works well in one setting will not necessarily work well in another, and even if it does, adding elements from other settings can lessen the appeal that first pulled people in.

Mystra and her Chosen weren't a problem until TSR decided to put them front and center, and this decision has created a perception of prominence/ubiquity that doesn't truly exist.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2012 :  19:37:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All I am going to say is that a lot of what I am hearing is based on misconceptions. Mystryl/Mystra was never a 'force for good', except as a byproduct of what she was really doing. There may be an argument for Mystra-Midnight being such a force initially, but I think she soon learned how to be more neutral (like when she told The Simbul to stop killing red Wizards, and assigned Elminster to stop her if she continued). To me, that sounds more like a tyrant-god then a good deity.

She promotes magic - its use, stability, and spread. Evil mages kill other mages and hoard magical knowledge just for themselves, which is counter-productive to her goals. An evil mage who spreads knowledge and teaches apprentices (ie, the Red Wizards) would and should not become a target of the Chosen.

The Harpers were created as an off-shoot of those same concepts - that everything (including magic) becomes better as civilization progresses, and anything that stands in the way of social progress (ie, limits individual freedoms). Technically a King is a despot, but in the case of the Obarskyrs they are (usually) 'enlightened' despots, so not only are they left alone by the Harpers, they are covertly supported by them. Ergo, if a 'tyrant' is promoting individual freedoms of expression - including but not limited to magic - then the Harpers do not bother them. Same with the Chosen.

So 'good' is a byproduct of both the Harpers and Chosen, and they are certainly not viewed as good by many folk (especially 'those in charge'). If you consider the fact that everything Mystra stands for is to promote her own portfolio, then she is just a selfish as an other deity. She doesn't care about people - she cares about promoting magic. Keeping people alive just happens to be a common way to further her goals.

And forget the Magisters - IIRC there were far more evil and/or self-serving ones then 'good'. Initially you had to kill your predecessor to get the job - do you tink that is something a good deity would promote? Azuth changed that, NOT Mystra!

@Dennis - quite the opposite. Mystra is very much a deity of "god helps those who help themselves". Her adherents often call priests 'spell-beggers'.

@Chosen of Asmodeus (and Asmodeus can't have Chosen ) - If a mountain range exists between two countries keeping them apart, is that unfair? How about a waterway, like the Inner sea? A desert? There are countless 'balancing factors' in our RW and in a fantasy one that keeps one group from getting the upper hand for too long (in olden times supply lines were a killer). All of these natural things help maintain balance, whether an immense forest, swamp, or even a storm at an unexpected time that destroys an entire armada (hsppened to the Spanish and Japanese), they are all 'acts of god'. Seemingly random events and geography that achieve a certain balance.

In a world where 'the gods' are very real, and have agents that work for them and further their portfolios, is it so hard to consider 'Chosen' extensions of the natural forces at work? Its not about good vs evil, or even law vs chaos - its all about balance. Too much of anything is a bad thing. So long as no one monolithic force ever gets the upper hand and controls everything, people will always strive to better themselves, and even get ahead of their neighbors - thats what promotes magic, and every other portfolio. If necessity is the mother of invention, then conflict is it's father. No-one wants perfect harmony - thats the last thing any god wants. That leads to atrophy.

Would Aglarond and Rashemen strive so hard if Thay didn't exist? They achieve what they achieve because of adversity. This is why maintaining the balance is so very important. The chosen aren't really munchkin-machines, or even tools - they are a lubricant that keeps all the gears turning.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2012 19:40:36
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2012 :  21:31:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

It may make sense, but you can't blame other people if they want there be no uberdeity of magic, because in other settings, such thing exists. I'll cite Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician Trilogy (and its sequels and prequel) as an example. The unnamed setting in that series is a high magic world, yet there's not a single god/dess of magic, or of anything. It's an almost perfect example of a humanocentric setting.

The realms is NOT another setting. If its not your cup of tea try another, don't mess up my blend.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I LOVE the Realms. In fact, on my list of favorite fantasy settings, shared-world or otherwise, it's on the very TOP. It's just that, one can't really love everything about something. And the existence of gods (not just Mystra) is one of those. Still, all things considered, I'm more than happy and less disappointed.

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Sightless
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2012 :  21:41:57  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK, one real quick post, here and one other place before I'm done for the day.

I don't have a problem with Mystra per say, but do have a problem with her prominance. I also wouldn't mind her being brought as less powerful than she was to begin with. Presence of magic doesn't necisatate strength of the God that represents it. And given the wide spred presence of magic, it would be and should be considered to some degree commonplace. Thus, magic shouldn't be seen as any greater than music or writing.

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  00:23:37  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


It may make sense, but you can't blame other people if they want there be no uberdeity of magic, because in other settings, such thing exists. I'll cite Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician Trilogy (and its sequels and prequel) as an example. The unnamed setting in that series is a high magic world, yet there's not a single god/dess of magic, or of anything. It's an almost perfect example of a humanocentric setting.



The realms is NOT another setting. If its not your cup of tea try another, don't mess up my blend.



See, here's the thing. For the most part, I very much enjoy the realms. I love Thay. I love Waterdeep. I love the Underdark. I love the gods- except Mystra.

Mystra is the *one* aspect of the realms that are a deal breaker to me. Any other parts of it I don't like, I can live with, work with, make to suit my own preferences.

But Mystra and her Chosen just leave a sour taste in my mouth. I like their 4e presentation; brought down to normal or some semblance of it, struggling and striving to retain their former power while the world passes them by. I find that to be a much more interesting, dramatic, tragic story than what came before.

And I'm all for progressing that story; maybe it is time to move on. But completely resetting things to the previous status quo just seems like a step backwards to me.


@Chosen of Asmodeus (and Asmodeus can't have Chosen ) - If a mountain range exists between two countries keeping them apart, is that unfair? How about a waterway, like the Inner sea? A desert? There are countless 'balancing factors' in our RW and in a fantasy one that keeps one group from getting the upper hand for too long (in olden times supply lines were a killer). All of these natural things help maintain balance, whether an immense forest, swamp, or even a storm at an unexpected time that destroys an entire armada (hsppened to the Spanish and Japanese), they are all 'acts of god'. Seemingly random events and geography that achieve a certain balance.

In a world where 'the gods' are very real, and have agents that work for them and further their portfolios, is it so hard to consider 'Chosen' extensions of the natural forces at work? Its not about good vs evil, or even law vs chaos - its all about balance. Too much of anything is a bad thing. So long as no one monolithic force ever gets the upper hand and controls everything, people will always strive to better themselves, and even get ahead of their neighbors - thats what promotes magic, and every other portfolio. If necessity is the mother of invention, then conflict is it's father. No-one wants perfect harmony - thats the last thing any god wants. That leads to atrophy.

Would Aglarond and Rashemen strive so hard if Thay didn't exist? They achieve what they achieve because of adversity. This is why maintaining the balance is so very important. The chosen aren't really munchkin-machines, or even tools - they are a lubricant that keeps all the gears turning.
quote:


Firstly; houserules trump Ed Greenwood every time.

Funny you bring up those storms, I've always said that if I could go back in time, the first place I'd go is to warn the Mongols about that typhoon so they could reschedule their invasion of Japan. I've always been curious to see how the world would have developed after that.

Anyway. Barriers are overcome; we build bridges, blast through mountains- maybe that's what happened to Mystra. Cyric(or someone manipulating Cyric) saw her as a barrier to be overcome, and he overcame her. Bridge built, river dammed up, tunnel carved.

But the question arises; what gives Mystra the right to play world police? And the answer is obvious; nothing. No one gives anyone rights; we take them, and Mystra took the right to maintain balance by being powerful enough that no one could stop her. Until someone did stop her. Until someone did take her right to interfere in everyone's business.

Now everyone's on an even playing field, with no big sister looking over their backs. And that is a sandbox I want to play in.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  00:33:40  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


It may make sense, but you can't blame other people if they want there be no uberdeity of magic, because in other settings, such thing exists. I'll cite Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician Trilogy (and its sequels and prequel) as an example. The unnamed setting in that series is a high magic world, yet there's not a single god/dess of magic, or of anything. It's an almost perfect example of a humanocentric setting.



The realms is NOT another setting. If its not your cup of tea try another, don't mess up my blend.



See, here's the thing. For the most part, I very much enjoy the realms. I love Thay. I love Waterdeep. I love the Underdark. I love the gods- except Mystra.

Mystra is the *one* aspect of the realms that are a deal breaker to me. Any other parts of it I don't like, I can live with, work with, make to suit my own preferences.

But Mystra and her Chosen just leave a sour taste in my mouth. I like their 4e presentation; brought down to normal or some semblance of it, struggling and striving to retain their former power while the world passes them by. I find that to be a much more interesting, dramatic, tragic story than what came before.

And I'm all for progressing that story; maybe it is time to move on. But completely resetting things to the previous status quo just seems like a step backwards to me.




Mystra is the deal breaker for me as well....just on the flip side of the coin. If she's not there, with her Chosen it's not the realms to me.

It should be simple for any DM to minimize her or exclude her completely....much easier than removing her from canon, in a way that is not feasible, and make some kewl boom booms all over hell's half acre and call it a setting.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 18 Oct 2012 19:10:11
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Euranna
Learned Scribe

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  01:24:49  Show Profile Send Euranna a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with several people. The Realms to me has Mystra and her Chosen. I actually appreciate the idea that Mystra needs her Chosen to help with the Weave as well as ensure that her power is never 100% lost since they hold pieces of it.
I am not found of Midnight because she was too "human" and good. I much preferred pre ToT Mystra, and Mystryl that appears to have a special relationship with Laroch.
The Realms is a high magic setting and Mystra and her Chosen have been a part of it and I think should be. When I heard that Mystra was killed off for 4e, it was a deal breaker for me. I did not buy any 4e books except novels by Ed and RAS. It was not my Realms anymore.

I have had discussions with people before about the Realms and how much the powerful NPC's take too much center stage and therefore it is not fun to play in a campaign set in the Realms. My response is if the DM is putting them in front of everything your party is doing, you have a crappy DM. Yes, they are there, but they are also dealing with villains like Szass. ;) The way I look at it, they are busy handling rips in the planes and such, so there is plenty for characters to do.



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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  02:47:41  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless

OK, one real quick post, here and one other place before I'm done for the day.

I don't have a problem with Mystra per say, but do have a problem with her prominance. I also wouldn't mind her being brought as less powerful than she was to begin with. Presence of magic doesn't necisatate strength of the God that represents it. And given the wide spred presence of magic, it would be and should be considered to some degree commonplace. Thus, magic shouldn't be seen as any greater than music or writing.

It sounds like your suggesting a set-up for the Weave similar to what's been suggested in past discussions here:- that of the principle of shaping magic being shared among several deities devoted to protecting the Weave, rather than just the one.

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  04:37:52  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

It may make sense, but you can't blame other people if they want there be no uberdeity of magic, because in other settings, such thing exists. I'll cite Trudi Canavan's The Black Magician Trilogy (and its sequels and prequel) as an example. The unnamed setting in that series is a high magic world, yet there's not a single god/dess of magic, or of anything. It's an almost perfect example of a humanocentric setting.

The realms is NOT another setting. If its not your cup of tea try another, don't mess up my blend.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I LOVE the Realms. In fact, on my list of favorite fantasy settings, shared-world or otherwise, it's on the very TOP. It's just that, one can't really love everything about something. And the existence of gods (not just Mystra) is one of those. Still, all things considered, I'm more than happy and less disappointed.



Gods add flaver to the Realms, IMO. There would be an emptiness without them. I am learning to accept (slowly), that they will play a less active role in 5e, but at least they're still there. As I sit here, thinking about it (see the things that occupy my mind? lol) I'm hoping 5e will create balance, so that the people who do like the gods can take comfort in knowing they're still there, and those who don't like them can take comfort in knowing they are less active.

I like Mystra, I like her Chosen, but I do think they're a little -to- powerful. But that doesn't mean I don't miss them.

Sweet water and light laughter
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  05:10:43  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, I'd be happy if Mystra (or some version) existed, was part of the Weave and it's protector, and had Chosen that didn't function as her agents so much as anchors for her power and the Weave, but we don't see them identified or their activities, and we don't get much more on the new Lady of Mysteries than that she exists. She is a landmark, but not someone that needs to be a major player, or does her Church need to be overly active (which is not to say it's not important).

I'm much more interested in knowing who the Hidden Lords of Waterdeep are than knowing who Mystra's Chosen are.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  05:21:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

But the question arises; what gives Mystra the right to play world police? And the answer is obvious; nothing. No one gives anyone rights; we take them, and Mystra took the right to maintain balance by being powerful enough that no one could stop her. Until someone did stop her. Until someone did take her right to interfere in everyone's business.

Now everyone's on an even playing field, with no big sister looking over their backs. And that is a sandbox I want to play in.



How is protecting your own field of responsibility playing world police? And just how effective is a police force consisting of 12 people among millions?

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  19:30:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

See, here's the thing. For the most part, I very much enjoy the realms. I love Thay. I love Waterdeep. I love the Underdark. I love the gods- except Mystra.

Mystra is the *one* aspect of the realms that are a deal breaker to me. Any other parts of it I don't like, I can live with, work with, make to suit my own preferences.

But Mystra and her Chosen just leave a sour taste in my mouth. I like their 4e presentation; brought down to normal or some semblance of it, struggling and striving to retain their former power while the world passes them by. I find that to be a much more interesting, dramatic, tragic story than what came before.
A few years ago, before I became a realms-addict, I felt precisely the same way. In fact, I still don't like most of the Seven Sisters. Kehlben and El grew on me, but the rest? *meh*

However, as I learned more about the Realms and peeled back more layers (and later watched designers obliterate layers) I started to see 'the big picture' - the delicate balance Ed achieved while designing his world. I won't say everything is "my cup of tea" (I would have done things differently), but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for the Forgotten Realms; a setting initially designed for Ed and his group, and it worked for them.

I don't like my country's current political or legal system. I told that to a lawyer friend of mine, saying, "our system sucks! Its so unfair!" He agreed... and then challenged me to find one better. It was a good point.

You, me, and whoever else might not like 100% of how the Realms is set-up, but dammit, you'll be hard-pressed to find one that more thought has gone into, or one that is 'better' (which is completely subjective). Take what you want from it, and leave the rest - just be aware that every piece you remove you should replace with something else, because the balance starts to shift quickly when you remove the major players .

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

And I'm all for progressing that story; maybe it is time to move on. But completely resetting things to the previous status quo just seems like a step backwards to me.
I would tend to agree with this statement. I would personally love a OGB reset, but thats not the best plan for the company, and since I want FR to have a bright future, I have to push my personal feelings aside in this matter.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Oct 2012 19:31:27
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  20:43:30  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I want Mystra back...but I agree she shouldn't be nearly so powerful.

In fact, I have always played in my own Forgotten Realms that the Earthmother/Chauntea is the most powerful god in the Forgotten Realms save Ao...and I have a theory that the two may have "got it on" to start this whole thing...but I digress.

Essentially, Chauntea (to me in my own game) is the embodiment of the world itself...and there is a whole line of other gods who, to me, should be more powerful than Mystra.x in the Forgotten Realms.

The Binder (Oghma) is more powerful to me.

Silvanus is more powerful to me.

In my own campaign, Mystra seems so very powerful only to those who look only at Civilization and the agents of that piece of the world. There are many ancient and abiding things far more powerful even than "simple" magic in the world(s) of/in/touching the Forgotten Realms.


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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  21:45:49  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
snipped this from Sage, who took it from an Ask Ed reply in 2004....


"Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn—and also spew silver fire from it—and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the “patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.

The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now."

I like the sound of that.

So Mystra 4.0(something close to pre Midnight/Mystra, which is how she feels how she may be headed...given the small glimpes from Ed's last Elminter novel) or back to Lurue as a second choice....with Chosen.....thats what I want.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 18 Oct 2012 21:46:44
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  22:08:06  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, at least we can all agree that Midnight was terrible.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  22:32:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Well, at least we can all agree that Midnight was terrible.



I don't think she was terrible. Not ideal, but not bad, either, and certainly not worth much of the negativity that has been thrown her way.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  23:08:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Well, at least we can all agree that Midnight was terrible.



she was kinda hot though...... just sayin'

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Chosen of Asmodeus
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Posted - 18 Oct 2012 :  23:10:33  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Well, at least we can all agree that Midnight was terrible.



I don't think she was terrible. Not ideal, but not bad, either, and certainly not worth much of the negativity that has been thrown her way.



Half-way through the Avatar series she had me rooting for Cyric.

I hate Cyric.

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The Sage
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Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  09:31:17  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Well, at least we can all agree that Midnight was terrible.

You can't really fault Midnight for all of the failures of Mystra 2.0.

Let's be fair... she was literally thrown into the deep end, so to speak, and "forced" to assume what is, arguably, the most powerful divine role in Realmspace. She had only the shortest amount of time possible to acclimate to such a hasty ascension, and had to then handle the negotiation of her relationship with the Chosen and what vested divine essence they still held of the former Mystra, as well as the fallout of the Time of Troubles as well.

I think she did the best she could, given the circumstances.

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sfdragon
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Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  15:03:08  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

Well, at least we can all agree that Midnight was terrible.



she was kinda hot though...... just sayin'


glad I wasnt the only one who thought this....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Kyrel
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Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  15:57:48  Show Profile  Visit Kyrel's Homepage Send Kyrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know, maybe it's because I haven't read enough of the different novels pertaining to the Realms, or maybe it's because I can't remember the canon enough, but two things:

1) I've never before gotten the impression that Mystra is more powerful than any of the other Major Gods. Yes, she's been used in many novels, because many of the characters that sell books, happen to be Mystra's Chosen, or other characters who happen to worship Mystra/use magic to some degree. But generally more powerful than the other Major Gods? Never got that impression.

2) Ignoring the Avatar trilogy, and the couple of books about Cyric, where he for some reason apparently tries to kill Mystra, I can't say that I ever got the impression that the Midnight/Mystra was all that different to the pre-ToT Mystra. Yes, she did change alignment, and I seem to recall that there was a passage somewhere towards the end of the Avatar trilogy, after Midnight's ascension, where she states that she intends to make some changes. But other than that, I can't really point my finger at anything that makes me go "Well that's new!".
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Dennis
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Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  16:06:21  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Midnight's worse than Karsus. If Karsus were allowed to spend at least a year as the God of Magic, he could have done a better job at it.

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The Sage
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Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  16:14:01  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Midnight's worse than Karsus. If Karsus were allowed to spend at least a year as the God of Magic, he could have done a better job at it.

Because I'm curious, I want to ask how you could possibly even make that assumption, Dennis, given the flicker of time that Karsus spent in the *role* when compared to Midnight's time as Mystra?

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Thauranil
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Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  17:24:43  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Midnight's worse than Karsus. If Karsus were allowed to spend at least a year as the God of Magic, he could have done a better job at it.


Karsus was a megalomaniac and an absolute dictator, at least Midnight had good intentions, though perhaps her implementation of them left something to be desired.
Also Karsus would no doubt have been horribly biased towards Netheril leading to all other civilizations falling under their yoke.
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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  17:33:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To me, it makes perfect sense what happened to Karsus. He went from 'mortal comprehension' to that of THE most power Greater Power in Realmspace instantly. Most beings go through the usual demi-, lesser, and intermediate stages. He went from being the best player in the 'Pee-Wee Leagues' to the NFL. He was gifted, and methodical, but he was too uncaring - he did what he did out of Hubris, not for any love of his people.


All of that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the same exact thing happened to Midnight, and she was able to handle it. Karsus was a genius, and yet he couldn't. However, that bit of strangeness is a great 'out' for us (or Ed, or whoever). It seems to me (more assumptions - I feel a need to constantly point that out now...) that Midnight did not receive the complete power of the Weave, and we have some evidence to support that. We know that Chosen and other magical powers (like Azuth and Severas, but we could include Velsharoon and perhaps even deities like Corellon and Thoth) held a portion of her power, but I think post-ToT more of her power was 'stored elsewhere' then in her previous incarnations.

What that does is make her somewhat weaker then her predecessors, more vulnerable then them, explains how Shar managed to grab a bit of it (did Ao actually give it to her?), and how she was able to handle something Karsus could not. All of that fixes a bunch of continuity oddities. I think the 3e Chosen were far more powerful then they were when the OGB came out. Midnight was Ao's "finger in a dyke", she was never meant to be a 'permanent fix'. Like any 'patch', it was never as strong as the original. (IMHO)

This also fits directly into the (new) Sundering material - Ao was just waiting for the patch to blow-out and the feces to hit the fan.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2012 17:35:02
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  17:41:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Midnight's worse than Karsus. If Karsus were allowed to spend at least a year as the God of Magic, he could have done a better job at it.

Because I'm curious, I want to ask how you could possibly even make that assumption, Dennis, given the flicker of time that Karsus spent in the *role* when compared to Midnight's time as Mystra?



Agreed. He couldn't handle it for a minute, so I don't see how he could have done better at managing magic than the deity who had been doing that job since the Weave came into existence.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Oct 2012 :  17:49:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

To me, it makes perfect sense what happened to Karsus. He went from 'mortal comprehension' to that of THE most power Greater Power in Realmspace instantly. Most beings go through the usual demi-, lesser, and intermediate stages. He went from being the best player in the 'Pee-Wee Leagues' to the NFL. He was gifted, and methodical, but he was too uncaring - he did what he did out of Hubris, not for any love of his people.


All of that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the same exact thing happened to Midnight, and she was able to handle it. Karsus was a genius, and yet he couldn't. However, that bit of strangeness is a great 'out' for us (or Ed, or whoever). It seems to me (more assumptions - I feel a need to constantly point that out now...) that Midnight did not receive the complete power of the Weave, and we have some evidence to support that. We know that Chosen and other magical powers (like Azuth and Severas, but we could include Velsharoon and perhaps even deities like Corellon and Thoth) held a portion of her power, but I think post-ToT more of her power was 'stored elsewhere' then in her previous incarnations.

What that does is make her somewhat weaker then her predecessors, more vulnerable then them, explains how Shar managed to grab a bit of it (did Ao actually give it to her?), and how she was able to handle something Karsus could not. All of that fixes a bunch of continuity oddities. I think the 3e Chosen were far more powerful then they were when the OGB came out. Midnight was Ao's "finger in a dyke", she was never meant to be a 'permanent fix'. Like any 'patch', it was never as strong as the original. (IMHO)

This also fits directly into the (new) Sundering material - Ao was just waiting for the patch to blow-out and the feces to hit the fan.



Personally, I think it has more to do with being prepared for divinity, prior to apotheosis. Midnight was already holding some of Mystra 1.0's power, and she was then elevated at the command of Ao. He sponsored her apotheosis, if you will. Karsus didn't have that preparation, and his elevation wasn't sponsored -- so it went BOOM.

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