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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 02:58:35
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On some forums I've seen people complaining about torture and rape mentioned in FR books. For example the story of Artemis Entreri.
I don't like to read about rape and torture too. I prefer books without such things. But I do like to read about fights.
What about you and general FR public?
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 03:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
On some forums I've seen people complaining about torture and rape mentioned in FR books. For example the story of Artemis Entreri.
I don't like to read about rape and torture too. I prefer books without such things. But I do like to read about fights.
What about you and general FR public?
I generally don't go out of my way to avoid unpleasant topics. Actually I never do. I consider most fantasy novels to be adult novels unless they are clearly marked as children's novels. So any kind of taboo topic should be fair game in order for the writer to effectively tell a compelling story. Although, I don't think the writer should go out of his/her way to include taboo topics. I just feel that they should be free to broach them as the story dictates. So if you are reading a story about a serial killer who likes to rape and torture their victims....well you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:01:50
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I personally think that sexual violence is almost never necessary in a fantasy novel, with some exceptions (wherein it is specifically addressed). It is extremely difficult to handle responsibly, and handling it irresponsibly is TERRIBLE. Since there's so much to lose and usually not much to gain by including it, from a writer's standpoint, it's just a bad bet in most cases.
Do not misunderstand me to be saying that sexual content is a bad thing to include--quite the opposite. The desire for physical and/or emotional intimacy is a basic human urge, and I think fantasy (or any piece of fiction) would do a disservice to its readers by ignoring it.
Rape is NOT an act of sex but one of VIOLENCE. It's about domination, torture, and cruelty, and not about any of the good things that sex can be about in fiction.
All that said, fantasy is much more amenable to violent content than sexual content, which is odd because the vast majority of us have sex more often than we try to kill each other with swords and fireballs. (Or at least I hope so!)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:48:53
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About sex... I don't mind reading normal consensual heterosexual scenes in books, some of these can be beautiful if written well. They may be even a plus if written well.
But after I read somewhere that rape will be mentioned in the last Salvatore books I decided that I don't want to read them.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:51:43
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Rape is terrible, and Erik is right, it is an act of violence and domination, not sex. However, so long as it is not explicitly described, I am okay with an author using it in the backstory of the character. Salvatore never went into great detail of Entreri's rape, and it was more implied than anything else, though it was obvious. His description of Dahlia's rape was a little more graphic, but it's not "in your face", though he still makes it disturbing, which is good, because rape IS disturbing, and no one should pretend otherwise. But I have several characters myself (a lot of them male) who have suffered rape in their pasts, so I am not adverse to writers using it for their characters past if need be. Being female, rape is naturally a fear of mine, and rapists and people who hurt children and animals are about the lowest creatures on earth. But I don't feel like rape is "taboo" in a story. I wouldn't hurt a fly myself (well, okay, maybe a fly), but I like a good fight scene (what fantasy reader doesn't?)
This is off topic, but it was mentioned that 5e is going to have more females characters. As a woman, I like strong female characters, and the Realms has had some good ones, but I have never felt it is too "masculine", and I like male characters. I am excited that there might be more homosexual characters in the new Realms. That will be interesting to see :) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:08:05
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As far as I'm concerned, no subject is utterly taboo for aesthetic or moral reasons (although authors working for a particular publisher sometimes find their choices constrained by the boss.) It all depends on how you handle the issue. But Erik is right that some subjects are extremely difficult to handle effectively and responsibly, especially in the context of certain kinds of genre fiction.
If you read my FR stuff, you know I have an ongoing character who was raped and still carries the scars. I like to think I'm dealing with her story appropriately. But the rapes are part of her backstory. They happened years before the reader first meets her, and I have no intention of ever depicting them explicitly in a flashback or anything like that. I think that would push very hard at the limits of what a FR novel should be, or at least what I want MY FR novels to be. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:14:39
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This is weird, but I just had a similar side-discussion.
Look at our RW history. Its pretty damn dark. You want to read a fantasy series that best emulates (but probably barely scratches the surface) of a RW Medieval society, read Game of Thrones. The TV series doesn't do it justice. Its downright disturbingly pornographic at times (and diabolically evil and violent).
I out-grew hobbits and unicorns years ago. I think FR fiction has just the right amount of 'adult content'. Any less, and it may as well be friggin' Narnia. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:20:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
As far as I'm concerned, no subject is utterly taboo for aesthetic or moral reasons (although authors working for a particular publisher sometimes find their choices constrained by the boss.) It all depends on how you handle the issue. But Erik is right that some subjects are extremely difficult to handle effectively and responsibly, especially in the context of certain kinds of genre fiction.
If you read my FR stuff, you know I have an ongoing character who was raped and still carries the scars. I like to think I'm dealing with her story appropriately. But the rapes are part of her backstory. They happened years before the reader first meets her, and I have no intention of ever depicting them explicitly in a flashback or anything like that. I think that would push very hard at the limits of what a FR novel should be, or at least what I want MY FR novels to be.
And I like said character :) her "no touchie" deal gave me inspiration for a character of my own, a male elf who was tortured when he was younger and has a "no touch" rule. Can't want for the next Brotherhood of the Griffin. The end took me by surprise. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 22:14:13
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| The rapes in Bobs books are also back story to get us to understand the motivations of characters who commit evil acts, but will probably redeem themselves as the books go on. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 22:29:56
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I think it depends on how an author utilizes rape/torture. If its simply tossed in, described in vivid detail, and then largely ignored, it comes across as a distasteful attempt at adding shock value to your work. However, if the victim dwells on it, and continues to develop afterward, I think its acceptable.
I can't stand to see rape on film, though. When I saw one of the Hills Have Eyes movies, I had to leave the theatre for a certain scene. I've heard the remake of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo handles it pretty well, though. I'd like to see the movie, but as I said, I can't handle seeing that stuff. While Lisabeth's revenge on the guy sounds delightfully fiting, I think I'd still have a hard time getting through that scene as well. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
Edited by - Entromancer on 08 Sep 2012 22:33:32 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 02:15:56
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Rape...Something I'd rather not see being detailed in a book unless absolutely necessary. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 04:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
I think it depends on how an author utilizes rape/torture. If its simply tossed in, described in vivid detail, and then largely ignored, it comes across as a distasteful attempt at adding shock value to your work. However, if the victim dwells on it, and continues to develop afterward, I think its acceptable.
I can't stand to see rape on film, though. When I saw one of the Hills Have Eyes movies, I had to leave the theatre for a certain scene. I've heard the remake of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo handles it pretty well, though. I'd like to see the movie, but as I said, I can't handle seeing that stuff. While Lisabeth's revenge on the guy sounds delightfully fiting, I think I'd still have a hard time getting through that scene as well.
I get uncfomtortable seeing a sex scene on tv, and if there is too much gore, I look away. And whipping scenes, oh gods, I hate whipping scenes. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 08:12:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is weird, but I just had a similar side-discussion.
Look at our RW history. Its pretty damn dark. You want to read a fantasy series that best emulates (but probably barely scratches the surface) of a RW Medieval society, read Game of Thrones. The TV series doesn't do it justice. Its downright disturbingly pornographic at times (and diabolically evil and violent).
I out-grew hobbits and unicorns years ago. I think FR fiction has just the right amount of 'adult content'. Any less, and it may as well be friggin' Narnia.
Agreed. I'm not seeing any of it portrayed in a glorified, sensational, violence for the sake of violence sense in any of the novels ive read in this setting, so I have no problems with it being in FR novels. It's too idealistic to imagine it never happens to characters, particularly ones who are or we're sometime in their backstory enslaved or citizens of a city that was pillaged or overthrown by some manner of militaristic force. Here, the "heroes" aren't out there raping children for haha's, nor is every violation depicted in a graphic scene by scene American Psycho manner.
I do think it takes a lot more to make me uncomfortable than some people, though. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 13:55:50
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If there is a genuine reason for such scenes to be included then I have have no problem with it.
But if its just for the sake of sensationalism or titillation then I am not interested. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 19:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is weird, but I just had a similar side-discussion.
Look at our RW history. Its pretty damn dark. You want to read a fantasy series that best emulates (but probably barely scratches the surface) of a RW Medieval society, read Game of Thrones. The TV series doesn't do it justice. Its downright disturbingly pornographic at times (and diabolically evil and violent).
I out-grew hobbits and unicorns years ago. I think FR fiction has just the right amount of 'adult content'. Any less, and it may as well be friggin' Narnia.
Agreed. I'm not seeing any of it portrayed in a glorified, sensational, violence for the sake of violence sense in any of the novels ive read in this setting, so I have no problems with it being in FR novels. It's too idealistic to imagine it never happens to characters, particularly ones who are or we're sometime in their backstory enslaved or citizens of a city that was pillaged or overthrown by some manner of militaristic force. Here, the "heroes" aren't out there raping children for haha's, nor is every violation depicted in a graphic scene by scene American Psycho manner.
I do think it takes a lot more to make me uncomfortable than some people, though.
Fortunately, FR authors donīt describe it in explicit ways. We know that violence and rape is there though - itīs part of war, and war is ugly. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thievesuntil they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Complaining people
