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 Elminster, Gandalf or Dumbledore?
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2020 :  20:01:15  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gandalf is a Maiar Spirit, so basically a cloaked demi-god in FR status. Oloron, the wise one. He had the ring of fire, given secretly to him upon his arrival to Beleriand/ Middle-Earth by Ciridan the Shipwright or something like that.

I still wonder... The tales of the Noldor elves say that that last remaining son of Feanor still walks the coastline of western middle-Earth seeking to make penance for his atrocities. Maglor The Mighty singer is his name. He threw the last remaining Silmaril into the sea in agony and shame.

I go with Gandalf.
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
226 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  19:38:33  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gandalf is certainly an acceptable choice. He's the only one of the three that is innately Divine.
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Shawn Daniels
Seeker

79 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2020 :  02:42:14  Show Profile Send Shawn Daniels a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I VERY MUCH want to choose Gandalf, but Elminster does far surpass him in power and I am superior my obsessed with the Realms atm, so...

Those who destroy knowledge, with ink, fire, or sword, are themselves destroyed.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1421 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2020 :  03:11:27  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why is Gandalf here? He's an angel clad in mortal flesh on a divine mission. The actual wizards here are Dumbledore and Elminster.

In which case, Elminster. Dumbledore is a blithering incompetent who only wins out because Voldemort was a moron. We see Dumbledore's brilliance in trusting Snape with handling Draco Malfoy during sixth year, except for the part where Malfoy was doing the equivalent of firing a loaded gun in a crowded room while trying to kill Dumbledore while Snape flaps his hands ineffectually.

Though, in terms of character, Gandalf by a mile.

Edited by - LordofBones on 07 Apr 2020 03:15:58
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AliMaClan
Acolyte

Canada
15 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2020 :  11:48:28  Show Profile Send AliMaClan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a relative newcomer to the realms, I have only read a few books with Elminster as a main character. It is 35 years since I read LOTR and a long time since I read H.P. Nevertheless I’ll throw in my two cents, I’m going to say Dumbledore with Elminster as a close second. (This may change when I have read some more FR.) My main reason is that the question is “ who do you like more” (not who is the most powerful wizard) and I suspect that were I to meet any in “real” life I might find him the most charismatic. Largely on account of the fact that he is portrayed as being very kind and not self aggrandizing despite his power. I suppose the question “who do you like more” hinges on which characteristics you find to be more valuable. Kindness, humour, and modesty would be more important than power, smarts, and status for me.

Exiled from the realms for 35 years on a quest for the lost chord. I return empty handed to resume my studies...

Edited by - AliMaClan on 10 Jul 2020 11:50:01
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4305 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2020 :  17:08:00  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, no Merlin???

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35986 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2020 :  17:54:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

So, no Merlin???



I don't know that we can really include him, here, because then there is the question of "Which Merlin?" He's been on TV shows, in movies, in countless books and comics... You could easily have people argue Merlin A vs. Merlin B vs. Merlin G.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7609 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2020 :  00:08:46  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd prefer Gandalf.

Gandalf's general appearance and persona were pioneering influences for the "traditional" wizard archetype we all know. Elminster and Dumbledore are mere followers in this regard.

Some people have argued that Gandalf didn't actually use much magic or that he only cast wimpy low-level sorts of spells.
I would argue that this is exactly what makes him compelling - he relies on magic only when there is no other recourse, and he allows (even requires) others to rely on their own abilities instead of meddling with whatever gimmicks he's got ready in his spellbook.

(Although [url=https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/ee/b0/dceeb097f1011ef5e97ea7aad929cec8.jpg]evil skullcap Merlin[/url] does have great style!)

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Jul 2020 00:11:35
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2364 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2020 :  02:56:17  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Power wise, obviously Gandalf, he's basically a demigod, or angel if you prefer. His immortality alone wins this one.

Character wise, I'd say El wins, but that's just because I like a little smart-assiness.

Dumbledore is pretty much the least interesting wizard ever written. In all 7 books he is bumbling around and a 10 year old is doing all the things he should be dealing with. We learn he pretty much pimped out his sister to get his kick ass wand which is where all his power comes from. His MO is let all the peons fight and die while I dick around with my memories and even get myself killed because I have no self control.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2364 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2020 :  03:09:49  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I'd prefer Gandalf.

Gandalf's general appearance and persona were pioneering influences for the "traditional" wizard archetype we all know. Elminster and Dumbledore are mere followers in this regard.

Some people have argued that Gandalf didn't actually use much magic or that he only cast wimpy low-level sorts of spells.
I would argue that this is exactly what makes him compelling - he relies on magic only when there is no other recourse, and he allows (even requires) others to rely on their own abilities instead of meddling with whatever gimmicks he's got ready in his spellbook.

(Although [url=https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/ee/b0/dceeb097f1011ef5e97ea7aad929cec8.jpg]evil skullcap Merlin[/url] does have great style!)



They are wrong though. He doesn't make a false dawn, he makes a REAL dawn. The only spells in D&D that can do that are Alternate Reality, Wish and MAYBE limited wish if you have a nice DM.

In Moria he basically did an earthquake spell.

He does something like a chain lightning with the goblins in the hobbit - or maybe a meteor swarm but there is only a flash visible so probably the former.

I'd say his bolts that he uses on the balrog and ring wraiths are most like the bolt of positive energy from greyhawk magic.

Then there is his strongest magic, which everyone always forgets, but I would liken most to the Eva1iir'Enevahr elven high magic. He inspires the world to fight for a thousand years against an enemy they have no real hope of defeating. He is basically hope and inspiration wandering around on two legs.

I would suggest that most of his magic could be viewed as High Magic. Sometimes the effects are simple, but they are perfect.

Edited by - The Masked Mage on 11 Jul 2020 03:25:53
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2364 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2020 :  03:22:36  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Dumbledore was of the same type as gandalf. He predicted and manipulated the actions of everyone he came into contact with (not necessarily with evil intent, sometimes people were manipulated merely into achieving their potential). He also made sure to know all he could about magic, both good and bad, which helped him greatly in fighting voldemort.



He doesn't though. He pretty much messed up every "manipulation" he tried - and even says so twice. Even if he was too weak to go fight off Voldemort, he could have at least taught Harry Potter some useful magic. Hermione teaches Harry more than Dumbldink ever did.

If it were not for Harry's wand and special connection to Voldemort, he would have died in book 4 because Dumbledore figured he'd just watch and let the evil wizard do whatever they want. One finite incatatum and make-believe-mad-eye is toast and Voldemort doesn't get his new body.

Then in book 7 we get like 300 extra pages of Harry wandering around trying to learn all the things Dumbledore could have told him when he was ten. Deathly Hallows are real, this is what they are, you have one, I have one, and there is this stone too. How hard is that? The list of times he would have fixed things by just telling people what they should know (you know - like a professor) is huge.
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AliMaClan
Acolyte

Canada
15 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2020 :  20:02:31  Show Profile Send AliMaClan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
“The list of times he would have fixed things by just telling people what they should know (you know - like a professor) is huge.“
I haven’t read enough Elminster to say for sure but it seems to me that this criticism could be levelled at almost any wizard I have ever read (except perhaps Rincewind...).
It seems to go with the territory!

Exiled from the realms for 35 years on a quest for the lost chord. I return empty handed to resume my studies...
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7609 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2020 :  20:49:08  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(For the record, Rincewind is a Wizzard, not a Wizard. There are important differences.)

[/Ayrik]
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AliMaClan
Acolyte

Canada
15 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2020 :  22:07:35  Show Profile Send AliMaClan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL - I stand corrected

Exiled from the realms for 35 years on a quest for the lost chord. I return empty handed to resume my studies...
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3177 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2020 :  22:41:13  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Everytime I see this scroll pop up, I keep thinking it's a Kiss/Marry/Kill situation...

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 11 Jul 2020 22:41:29
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35986 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2020 :  00:18:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

Everytime I see this scroll pop up, I keep thinking it's a Kiss/Marry/Kill situation...



Dumbledore would be the easiest to kill. Elminster's got his Chosen protections, and Gandalf got better when he was killed.

Gandalf wouldn't spend a lot of time at home, if married... Some would consider that good, some would not.

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