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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:52:14
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Of course, and large angry Cimmerians. 
I've been tinkering with it, and I've run into a wall. My Hordelands map was imperfect (Gasp!). It was good for what it was, but I had been working on a better version when I lost everything. Semphar should be a bit smaller and a bit more north; not much, just a tad. Also, a few other things need to be tweaked as well (I really hate how the Raurin looks when you try to combine the 3e map with the old 2e maps of the east).
So now I am thinking about a new 'Eastern Realms' map. Part of the problem (a BIG part) was getting my maps to line-up with the official 3e map... but I really don't have to worry about that so much anymore, do I?
Also, With what I have now - I greatly reduced the sea - I'm still not really 'feeling it'. I think I need to move away from my original concept of having water fill-in where the Dragonwall used to be. Had the wall been closer to the river it might have worked. So now I am going with some thoughts I (and others) had discussed concerning the nature of the Dragonwall - that the entire thing couldn't have possibly been the original dragon. Thus, parts were later added on (and enchanted) to match the existing wall, but those sections would not have exploded when the dragon was released in 1385 DR (this is actually based on canon - there are already rebuilt sections where parts of the dragon have been previously released, and those sections were rebuilt without the dragon's spirit being interred in it).
So I can probably fudge stuff where I want the original dragon to have been, and get a more crescent-shaped Sea in that area. Combining that with the Semphar tweaks I have in-mind, it should work out well. I wish I could connect it to the gorge that flows out into the shining Sea, but as I said earlier, I can't really have water flowing in two directions. I can just give Durpar a town on the southern coast of Brighstar Lake, and say they've re-opened the caravan routes since 2e (which they were trying to do canonically regardless). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Sep 2012 20:57:26 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 03:05:14
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Has anyone asked Ed what his original intention was for an Oriental fantasy setting in the Realms was?
Indeed- or has anyone asked him if he had such an intention at all?
I suspect that he did not.
Thay, the South, and the 'Utter East' are the 'mysterious far away lands.' No need, then, for Kara Tur.
YMMV
I asked him this very question a couple of years ago. He hasn't responded directly as far as I recall, but at the time THO commented on their home game. She recalls that Ed does have some distant lands far beyond Thay and the Unapproachable East. There's even a map of several kingdoms around a sea-gulf. The general concept is 'exotic' but nothing specific beyond that term. Nothing inherently 'oriental' or far eastern about it mentioned.
I believe he used them much in the same way the real Far East was to Medieval/Renaissance Europe, a mysterious land almost as unreal and beyond belief as it was distant and exotic. It was a rumor mill, churning out plot hooks. Need a mysterious benefactor for your villainous groups, look east. Need strange magics unseen even by Faerunian experts in strage magics, rumors point east.
The reason these haven't appeared (aside from Kara-Tur being now an official part of the published setting) and a reason why I believe Ed most likely will not provide any real detail about his works in that area (even as an unofficial aside on these boards) is because when he sent the material to TSR, Jeff Grubb said they had more than enough to work with using Faerun itself. He either sent the material back or refused the material, and since TSR never saw it, asked for it, or paid for it, the material still belongs to Ed. If he were to reveal the material, it would fall into a nebulous canon status and probably become property of WotC.
Nebulous canon because anything Ed says about the Realms is Realms canon, until or unless WotC overrides it with their own material. WotC already has KT as an official override, but just because they're not going with Ed's version doesn't mean they don't own it because it was originally a part of the Realms. So as long as Ed keeps it under wraps and doesn't claim it's part of the Realms, it's still his material to do with as he pleases. He could theoretically file the Realms serial numbers off and fix it up as its own setting to be published in a separate agreement with any company willing to publish it. This is a very real possibility because Ed has designed game settings outside the Realms, both by his own design (Castlemourn) or for-hire for established settings (Kalamar, Golarion, Midgard). |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 04:06:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Moving Forward:
Looking at the map right now, I think I see what else I might have done - I extended the water much further north then the wall ever went. I wanted it to be a better barrier (against the Tuigan) then the wall ever was. I'm going to be away from home for a few days, so I won't be able to tweak it some more - maybe when I get back.
Beside water and a wall, what else could I use as a barrier to the north there? A ravine won't work, because it would just fill-in with water. Hmmmm... I have to fix all those cliffs (they are all backwards... which is one of the reasons I never released my Kara-Tur map) - I think maybe my original cliff/landrise idea would work in that area. Maybe most of the eastern edge of the sea could be cliffs, which is why no towns have sprung up along that coast.
A cliff would be fine, but a ravine might work too. Imagine the Dragon Wall sloped up as it approached the Chukei Plateau, so that even though the terrain was cleft, the altitude of the bottom of the ravine is still higher than that of the point where the Arundi river leaves the new lake. The Merket Depression, in its turn, would be much lower, but surrounded by hills, making it an endorheic basin. I'm not sure if there's any information that would contradict that, but if not, all that's needed is some convenient interpretation of the terrain. The only problem I see is that it might look a bit silly and/or confusing to have some kind of gorge next to the Merket Depression.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I can probably fudge stuff where I want the original dragon to have been, and get a more crescent-shaped Sea in that area. Combining that with the Semphar tweaks I have in-mind, it should work out well. I wish I could connect it to the gorge that flows out into the shining Sea, but as I said earlier, I can't really have water flowing in two directions. I can just give Durpar a town on the southern coast of Brighstar Lake, and say they've re-opened the caravan routes since 2e (which they were trying to do canonically regardless).
I suppose you could make another canal into the Jumpa River Gorge (maybe a subterranean one like that one in Thindol), though that's a lot of canals.
And why would Durpar attempt conquest or colonization across the Raurin? Have they tried that in the past? If not, I'd suggest they just had control of caravan routes across the Raurin, but not a town in the southern Gbor Nor (a large trading post would seem okay though).
Not sure how all that stuff would look on your updated version though, I'm just working with the current one.
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 17:57:09
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Durpar would NOT be trying to expand.
In the Desert of desolation material, they had old (ancient) trade-routes across the Raurin, after Imaskar fell (during the comparatively brief survivor-state period). Even after those Kingdoms fdeclined (their are two discussed in DoD, and Solon was another from the Hordelands stuff), they managed to continue trade with Semphar and Murghôm for a time, until the 'badness' of the Desert (monsters, etc) made it non-profitable. Hence the name, "Desert of Desolation".
In the module(s) of the same name, we have Durpar with some desire to re-establish those routes. The push isn't very strong though, because they have been able to trade with K-T through the Old Iron Road (through Guge), and into the Inner Sea via the Alamber and Mulhorand. Up until the end of 3e, the monsters of Veldorn were not numerous enough and/or organized enough to stop most of this trade. During the Spellplague and on into the 4e era, Veldorn was subsumed into the Beastlands, and trade north (via that route) has become too dangerous. Trade east through Guge probably stopped for a time during the Tuigan War, but that may have resumed (however, we still don't know what sort of craziness was occurring in K-T during the Wailing Years).
Ergo, re-establishing their old trade routes across the desert seems the best option again (other then long sea voyages), and it may now be safer to cross regardless (with Pandorym gone, and the events of the DoD supplement having been played-out, and Tan Chin no longer being in Solon). There are two unaligned towns on the southern shore of Brightstar Lake - Fars, and Darrabhal. My thoughts on this is that after a decent, steady trade-route is re-established, the Durpari would have a strong presence in Darrabhal. As things stand, it is still independent, but the government of the town is in Durpar's (well-paying) pocket. They have built the place up, adding a few tall building that would allow for them to have docking for their skyships.
As for Fars, that has become a seedy 'everything goes' type of town, that makes no qualms about who uses their facilities (in other words, a pirate port). You can see both of those towns on my old Hordelands map. That gives us four nations with major interests on the Lake, a pirate port, and connections both east and west (to the Inner sea) for trade. It makes the entire area more useful, more interesting, and more accessible.
@Dark Wizard - I believe Ed did respond to your question, or one just like it. Either that, or it was something I may have read in the Realms-List. I know I had put it all in a document in my K-T stuff, but that's gone now. It wasn't much; it was just a glimpse of how Ed pictured it.
EDIT: Found it! This forum doesn't have post #'s (another improvement we need), but its in THO's response about halfway down the page. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Sep 2012 18:28:02 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 22:35:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Perhaps focusing on more mystical elements can prove for an interesting way to change things up. The gods of Kara-Tur and their unique influence on the cultures there could give some guidelines into how they might have weathered the centuries of changes. Also what powerful mythical creatures are candidates for being real 'movers and shakers' of their areas?
Obviously dragons are good and flavourful candidates for having had a hand in the politics, landscape exploitation, wars and disasters in all of Kara-Tur. Perhaps a rise of Oni that claim to power in Wa? A plague spread by Rashasa? Meddling Efreeti?
I am by no means a master of Kara-Tur lore (I never bought the original book, but I think I have a download whenever TSR was giving free downloads... never looked at it). However, if they did a derivative thing with the countries, then probably your best thing to do is focus exactly on this kind of thing... how do the monstrous and mystical cultures change things? Also, what creatures from other cultures might be found in Kara-Tur... for instance the yak-men of Zakhara. What has been revealed about the underdark beneath Kara-Tur? Maybe the Quaggoth that are so downtrodden beneath Faerun actually flourished in Kara-Tur? Maybe there's a catfolk (from races of the wild) culture, and maybe this catfolk culture also has wemics that live amongst them (kind of like humans and centaurs living amongst each other)?
I know they also had spelljammers... what cultures did they get involved with and did they bring any cultures back with them?
What sea civilizations are there? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 23:47:47
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When we working on the Utter East project, we had decided to go with Minotaurs in the Ue to compliment the Yakmen just to the south in Zakhara. Then, as I was working on K-T material, I decided to put Goatmen on the other side of the Mountains (more toward the south and the coast).
This gives us a 'beastman' creature in each of the three main campaign areas, all around the Yehimals.
There are also Gnolls (Dogmen) in the mountains along Guge and Tabot, and some truly ancient (8000+ years) temple with pics of beastmen in that same area. All of this added up to a Rakshasa presence in the Yehimal mountain range (because I blame them for most of the half-beast races). Except for the Yakmen (and Gnolls), all homebrew, of course.
Also, the forest between the Utter East and Zakhara is known as "Herne's Woods" - another beast connection (since Maler absorbed Herne in the Realms). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Sep 2012 23:48:14 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 03:37:56
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@MarkusTay
That's the same question and response I was referring to. It wasn't a direct answer from Ed. It was a brief reply from THO about a handful of vague features she recalled off the top of her head from their home game. It's not much to go on, but does (to answer Razz and combatmedic) confirm Ed did indeed think of lands as far as Kara-Tur, even if they may be very different from the fantasy Asia of the official Eastern Realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 17:40:44
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There is a large gulf over that way, and I discovered an 'unknown city' mentioned in Once Around the Realms. I also discovered a locale named but not placed in the same region, thus I applied the canon name I had to the city.
Its not on that map I posted, but I have placed in on the newer version. The interesting thing about that city is that it exists in the 'lost province' (named in the original Oriental Adventures supplement), and that city is know for a large population of westerners. For whatever reason, that entire area is no longer
part of Shou Lung (or any other country) - my assumption is that it was just never re-taken when the third Shou Empire arose (its not a very hospitable area - a cold, forbidding stretch of coast). Its probably why westerners tend to conglomerate there - there aren't the usual restrictions imposed on foreigners as you find in most of the rest of Kara-Tur.
Anyhow, my point is, if Ed ever does give us some names, I can place them around that gulf and it really won't affect anything - its a great fit. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 01:00:59
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| Were I one of Ed's players, I'd have my character be a world-traveler just so he has no choice but to detail more of those lands. :D |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 21:59:14
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I found I somehow made a very bad error in proportions when I did my Hordelands and Kara-Tur maps. In trying to make stuff work with the re-shaped Faerun maps, K-T got 'squished' (and I am not talking about the canon 2/3 'squishing' the k-T box maps got when they got shoe-horned into the Realms).
The Raurin is actually twice as large as shown on my Hordelands map, which makes making it into an inland sea even more preposterous - its even bigger then the Raurin (almost like an Eastern Anauroch).
After working on a newer version of my Horde/Taan map, Ive decide not to go so far east, simply because I don't know where 5e is going, and I'd hate to waste my time like that. I was showing part of the coast, but with the new size-corrections the K-T coast is nearly twice as far away (about the same distance to the Dragonwall, as the Dragonwall is to Thay).
I had other problems as well - I found as I went west, I had to 'correct' more and more of the 3e map, which is counter-productive. The point was to get a new 'Eastern Raelms' map to line-up perfectly with the official one (which I never tried before - my own realms map was already axis-corrcted).
So instead I am moving forward with a project I've been wanting to do since the beginning - building a new map using the 3e terrain, but with the 1e/2e contours. If I finish that in any decent amount of time (and pigs fly, and hell freezes over, etc), then I will continue east. By then, I hope to know a little more about what 5eFR will look like. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 05:17:48
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I mentioned earlier that this thread inspired me to do yet another version of my Realms map - this one a complete re-paint of the 1e/2e map with the 3e textures.
I have a WIP here.
Eventually the map will make it all the way to the Shou border. After I place the settlements, and then maybe 'places of interest' (Dungeons) in another, I plan to use this as a basis for a new map of the Eastern Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Re-imagining Kara-Tur
