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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 22:12:20
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Yes, you made that point clear in your summary: canon won't establish which deity is alive and which isn't anymore. However the reason I'm so hot about some deities returning is that it opens the possibility to new stories about them set in the most recent era (i.e. without the burden of canon that sets in stone their ultimate conclusion), not because I feel like I cannot use them in my game, because -trust me- it's not the case. So, if WotC take the approach of uncertainty, what I'd like to see among the other things is new stories about the lost gods' followers and quests.
As I said before, even if sourcebooks won't clearly state X is back, I want to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun playing a role in the new era, through their followers and their struggle, told in novels or stories. They have completely been ignored in 4e, and this is a total waste (and even now, WotC had the opportunity to restore them, greatly reduced in power and influence but still struggling, but they chose to discard what seems to be good lore, and the reason of such choice is beyond me. Honestly, this tells me a lot about their intention about the future development of the drow  ) |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Aug 2012 22:14:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 22:18:44
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What was said - by Ed Greenwood himself, IIRC - was that some folks still receive spells from 'dead gods', even throughout the Spellplague. many did not, but some did.
That doesn't mean they are alive, and it doesn't mean they are dead. Its just means the possibility is there (and always has been). DMs may decide who or what is answering those prayers, and maybe future novels, but for now just assume "nothing is what it seemed".
Please don't be judgmental about the future direction of the Realms until we have a real example of it in our hands. I got a hunch many of us will have an "ohhhh... yeah... that works for me" moment. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Aug 2012 22:20:44 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 22:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What was said - by Ed Greenwood himself, IIRC - was that some folks still receive spells from 'dead gods', even throughout the Spellplague. many did not, but some did.
That doesn't mean they are alive, and it doesn't mean they are dead. Its just means the possibility is there (and always has been). DMs may decide who or what is answering those prayers, and maybe future novels, but for now just assume "nothing is what it seemed".
And this is what I'm doing. What I meant is that WotC's choices about the drow seem pretty clear to me: they want them to be Lolth-only, and no possibility would matter at that point. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but that's definitely my impression after seeing what they did. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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doctorbadwolf
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 22:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
2) Dragonborn and Genasi "realms": The current plan is, as part of the Sundering, Akanul and Tymanther are headed back to Abeir. There may be vestiges left, and you have plenty of opportunity to use either of these races in your game. There are also a whole lot of portals connecting the worlds in these locations--use 'em or ignore 'em as you will.
3) Dragonborn origins: There are at least 4 distinct "humanoid dragon" races in the Realms. I think at least some of them share a common ancestor (Tymanther dragonborn and Saurials, for instance, may have derived from the same stock many thousands of years ago). And it must be remembered that "dragonborn" is not necessarily a scientific name or even a widely used term in the Realms. It's more a sagely term like "eladrin."
Cheers
"No retcon, just a flash of Ao magic to wipe away these things you were worried would be retconed away. Totally different. I mean, screw Tymanther, right?"
Less encouraging than other things.
Nothing so interesting and imaginitive as a realm where the people of Tymanther and the people of Unther must learn to coexist and try to form a stable realm. Nothing so kind as Ao causing these people who [i]are now native to Faerun and their land to be moved to an island off one of the shores, or create a new continent so that lands lost can be reclaimed without shunting things out of sight, just a token effort to placate the fans of those elements by saying, "well, there are still some dragonborn and genasi, and it's not like history has been rewritten...right? "
You guys gonna axe Netheril and make Myth Drannor a ruin again, while you're at it?
At what point have you just shoved all forward movement in the setting out a window?
I'm sorry, but this just...this upsets me greatly. I won't edit it, but I will say...read with the understanding that I'm getting weary of recent events that seem a lot like over-corrections rather than steering back on course. I'm hoping this isn't such a case. |
Edited by - doctorbadwolf on 22 Aug 2012 22:36:32 |
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doctorbadwolf
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 22:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The concept sounds good to me tho, and I'd like much more this to become canon than ''Ao brought them back''. If Ao was going to write ''Eilistraee and Vhaeraun'' on the tablets of fate, they could just get ''promoted'' to deities again (or they could easily remain archfey if WotC don't want them to play a bigger role).
Dig it. In 4e, I actually have (but have barely played) a drow White Well Hexblade of The Lady, reflavouring the white well stuff to Grotto of SIlver and Shadow stuff. Worked pretty well. I had to make up most of it, because I didn't have much info. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 23:50:15
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@Irennan: The possibility is definitely there for more Eilistraee/Vhaeraun tales, though I suspect WotC would like to make drow rare/exotic again. (Not possible to put the genie back in the bottle, but diminish their presence in the outside world.) I personally would tell a tale of the Masked Lady's long-brewing vengeance against her evil mother . . .
Anyway. Don't give up hope!
@DoctorBadWolf: I think that's an over-simplification. And you did read my comments about "vestiges" left in place, right? In large part the lands of Tymanther and Akanul are headed back for Abeir, true, but that says nothing of the people. There is a whole huge margin of story right there.
These things are only *gone* if you don't want to focus on them. It's mostly a matter of rebuilding what vanished (Mulhorand, Maztica, Unther, etc).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 00:18:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Irennan: The possibility is definitely there for more Eilistraee/Vhaeraun tales, though I suspect WotC would like to make drow rare/exotic again. (Not possible to put the genie back in the bottle, but diminish their presence in the outside world.) I personally would tell a tale of the Masked Lady's long-brewing vengeance against her evil mother . . .
Anyway. Don't give up hope!
And how would Eilistraeen and Vhaerunites not be exotic? They are supposed to be few, always in danger in their almost hopeless struggle, thus not eager to show themselves. They represent the rebels who oppose tyranny, in their own different and peculiar ways. I've expressed my feelings about them many times here, I'm getting redundant. And they don't make the drow less dangerous for the same reason.
They also add a lot of depth and variety to a race which -honestly- fails at its goal (drow cannot be charismatic villains, as they are brainwashed, indoctrinated, oppressed, tools. If we put aside obvious and natural difference in their personality, all of them have the same meaningless goal in life, power for its sake. Heck, even happiness is deemed weak among them...), besides being very valid characters on their own.
And last but not least (and this is something WotC should carefully consider), they're wildly popular. Just check how many would like them back in this scroll (and compare them to the number of authors that posted). As you said somewhere else (I don't recall atm) WotC provide a service, and if many people ask for something (which enriches the setting and doesn't destroy anything), it'll make sense to give it. I really cannot see how 2 archfeys with extremely few followers would make the drow as a whole less exotic or villainous (they would only make them more exotic and interesting). It was a huge let down to see the content removed.
About the Masked Lady, as I see it, she tries to blend Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's flavor, but loses much from both. I prefer them as distinct but connected entities, they make a very interesting dichotomy: freedom through understanding and choice vs freedom through violent rebellion. Also, a tale about Eilistraee shouldn't be of revenge, but of intense struggle, of freedom, compassion and hope. That's the #1 reason why the LP failed (IMO) to portray what Eilistraee stands for, because it's not ''get Lolth'', as I've said numerous times (besides, what vengeance would the ML seek, as -apparently- she wasn't killed, but sacrificed herself for the redemption -of a handful of drow-?). I do appreciate that you'd be up to write a story about different drow tho...
I've tried to explain my feelings about this and what Eilistraee and Vhaeraun bring with them to the FR (as much concisely, clearly and kindly as I could. The fact that English isn't my first language doesn't help tho...) in the mail I sent to WotC about my request to see the new lore that was in store for them published. Now I can only hope that it gets considered...
My hopes are still alive, but in a comatose status... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2012 00:48:34 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 01:10:11
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Re: "Long brewing vengeance": my thinking is that the Masked Lady is equal parts Eilistraee (who sacrificed herself for her people) and Vhaeraun (who didn't sacrifice himself for nobody). The anger comes from him, and then the story is Eilistraee showing him that the cycle of hatred never solves anything. Etc. You get me?
There's also some discussion to be had as to whether resurrecting Eilistraee diminishes her sacrifice, but that really depends on how you received the LP series.
Re: "Exotic": I don't think you understand my meaning. What I was asking was whether the drow should be "exotic" in the sense of "mysterious" and "not fully developed." Should drow be as developed as elves, with a full pantheon of their own gods, an entire vast, detailed empire of their own, etc., etc., or do they work better as "lone wolf/extremely rare" sorts of characters (like Drizzt or Liriel)?
If you look back on what drow were in 1e D&D, they were basically another evil race of creatures that had one goddess who had an unsettling drawing in the Fiend Folio. They became super popular from there, but it's arguable as to whether that popularity came from the coolness of the concept, or from examining every aspect of the race with a microscope.
Don't get me wrong. Drow are cool. I like drow. And drow are obviously extremely popular. But as you look ahead to 5e, do you really want to see MORE drow coverage, or would you be interested in seeing drow return more to their roots, as the Realms over all is doing?
(That may sound rhetorical, but really it's a legitimate question.)
Also, fun fact: Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are the two drow deities Gary Gygax did NOT design, but rather they were created by Ed Greenwood as part of the Forgotten Realms.
So they are Realms specific, and I personally think there is a place for them in the Realms. Will they return? I couldn't say. I hope so. But even if they do, I don't need to examine them and their churches through the microscope. I'm actually happier having them be mysterious, because as I see it, that's part of their charm.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 23 Aug 2012 01:16:00 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 01:27:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Don't get me wrong. Drow are cool. I like drow. And drow are obviously extremely popular. But as you look ahead to 5e, do you really want to see MORE drow coverage, or would you be interested in seeing drow return more to their roots, as the Realms over all is doing?
Also, fun fact: Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are the two drow deities Gary Gygax did NOT design, but rather they were created by Ed Greenwood as part of the Forgotten Realms.
So they are Realms specific, and I personally think there is a place for them in the Realms. Will they return? I couldn't say. I hope so. But even if they do, I don't need to examine them and their churches through the microscope. I'm actually happier having them be mysterious, because as I see it, that's part of their charm.
Cheers
When I was talking about popularity I wasn't referring to the drow in general (even tho they're extremely well received, not by me tho. Not lolthite, at least), but to the siblings.
Anyway, I'm aware that they are the only Realms specific dark elven deities. And I do want to see the drow going back to their roots, and for the FR it means Eilistraee and Vhaeraun returning: they characterize the FR drow, give them charisma, making them different from the standard ones.
As for the mysterious part: ofc they should be, but there's a difference between mysterious and no detail. Honestly I don't want Eilistraee and Vhaeraun examined through a microscope, as you say, I'd like them to be mysterious as well, but I want to know that they're there, fighting and struggling with their few followers (which would get close to the concept of lone characters, united in small groups. Also it adds way more depth to have this fight secretly going on, than to have one or two super drow who basically are the only one who managed to get away). If anything, this would make the dark elves even more mysterious, exotic and interesting. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2012 01:31:09 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 01:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
3) Dragonborn origins: There are at least 4 distinct "humanoid dragon" races in the Realms. I think at least some of them share a common ancestor (Tymanther dragonborn and Saurials, for instance, may have derived from the same stock many thousands of years ago). And it must be remembered that "dragonborn" is not necessarily a scientific name or even a widely used term in the Realms. It's more a sagely term like "eladrin."
Indeed. The past discussions we've had one what, exactly, the dragonborn call themselves, proved to be very enlightening. To the point where I actually started developing my own theories as to how they came to be called such in my Realms.
And while I like the notion of the various draconic humanoid races sharing something of a common ancestor, I've been trying to run with a somewhat different idea in my Realms. Essentially, just like Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon Man here on historical Earth, I've suggested the possibility that two partially distinct branches of the draconic humanoids have existed almost alongside one another -- with one branch possibly proving more ably to survive and adapt to the changing environment of the post-Spellplague era... while the other has almost faded into obscurity.
Thus, we now have, largely, only one particular family of dragonic humanoids that have come to interbreed and mingle with what's left of the "dying" branch of draconic humanoids. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 01:31:03
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I'd like to see the drow less thoroughly overexposed; likewise, I love Eilistraee but as a secret and a rumour and an almost-forgotten hope, not as a prominent familiar 'option'. I'd like to see them return to their roots, which in the case of their Gygaxian origin means Lolth being just the pre-eminent demon among many that they worship, and in the case of the Realms means restoring elements of Ed's dark elves that the drow took over from in TSR's version of the world, and which we see a version of in his Niflghar books.
And I'd like to see Faerûn's subterranean reaches called the Realms Below more often, and Doug Niles's word Underdark -- rather less evocative and exciting than before it was familiarized on all those book covers -- less. Small linguistic touches -- and the Realms is built of language -- like that would nicely restore some of the original feel. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 01:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I'd like to see the drow less thoroughly overexposed; likewise, I love Eilistraee but as a secret and a rumour and an almost-forgotten hope, not as a prominent familiar 'option'.
Yes, this is what I mean. I'd like Eilistraee (and Vhaeraun) presented in this way in the new era (and this is what they were before 3e, AFAIK), but present (And making them mysterious archfey would've been a way to do so...). They are part of the actual ''origin'' of FR drow, the point where they started differing from GH. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2012 01:38:14 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 01:42:51
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I think that the core drow should be the evil elves that follow their demonic spider goddess. However, the realms drow should be more complex, because the drow play a greater role for realms players / fans. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun belong in core, because they have never been part of the core D&D drow pantheon. However, they do serve to make the realms drow distinct from core drow. I would like to see them play a larger role in realms and have grown from there experience in the LP series (as terrible as that series was). For instance, Eilistraee could become less gender bias and begin to trust her hand with a bow again. Vhaeraun could become CN and represent a nonevil, nongood choice for shady drow characters. The fact that they were not restored in the Menzo book, I view as a huge failure and missed opportunity to show that complexity is being restored to the realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I don't think WotC is going to outline specifically which deities are back. Or, more accurately, they won't list which deities AREN'T back. Instead, we'll have a core of deities who are definitely there (or at least their churches are active and popular)
I think the important thing here is that the core is not to small. Most of the times this discussion comes up there is a suggestion of doing only X number of deities. The "core" deities should be a list of deities that doesn't cost the realms depth in favor of oversimplification. Instead of starting with a number in mind, the design team should be looking at what deities will have churches and shrines mentioned in the setting and those deities should all be covered. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 23 Aug 2012 02:04:26 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 02:27:16
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I actually found the Masked Lady interesting, not saying FR should take her over splitting them in two again, but I can just imagine how,awkard it'd be to deal with her. Her father wouldn't know weather to be worried he lost a daughter, or happy to regain a son. It'd be worse for Sharess, on one hand one half of the Masked Lady was nearly her daughter in law, a plan ruined by Lolth, and on the hand the other half belongs to the God that tricked you, imprisoned you, tortured you and then tried to kill you, while pregnant with his son, oh and then later tried to kill your son too. That'd make for akward conversations.
In another thought will the Core FR deities include just Greater Gods, Intermdiate Gods as well, or even Demi and Lesser Gods? |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 02:31:34
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quote:
You guys gonna axe Netheril and make Myth Drannor a ruin again, while you're at it?
At what point have you just shoved all forward movement in the setting out a window?
There's nothing about Tymanther that's a result of "forward movement." Both Netheril and Myth Drannor exist as they do today because of seeds planted in Faerun's history. They developed naturally from pre-existing story elements.
Tymanther, on the other hand, quite literally fell out of the sky and crushed Unther. There is NOTHING about it which represents forward movement, as it didn't evolve out of any pre-existing story elements. One minute it's not there, the next minute it is. If anything, it crushed forward movement, as there were some burgeoning storylines that were being pushed forward with the Unter/Mulhorand plotline, and all of a sudden those plot threads came screeching to a dead halt and vanished when the 4E developers chucked Tymanther at the Faerunian map.
Frankly, good riddance to Tymanther and all those other silly Abeir elements. The day when I'll see the back of them can't come soon enough. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 02:40:08
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Masked Lady was a really cool concept for the book or two she existed. I wouldn't mind having the Masked lady instead of the E and V back. For me the important part is to restore the beacon of light for all those drow pc characters in the official realms.
quote:
Originally post by Venger
There's nothing about Tymanther that's a result of "forward movement." Both Netheril and Myth Drannor exist as they do today because of seeds planted in Faerun's history. They developed naturally from pre-existing story elements.
Tymanther, on the other hand, quite literally fell out of the sky and crushed Unther. There is NOTHING about it which represents forward movement, as it didn't evolve out of any pre-existing story elements. One minute it's not there, the next minute it is. If anything, it crushed forward movement, as there were some burgeoning storylines that were being pushed forward with the Unter/Mulhorand plotline, and all of a sudden those plot threads came screeching to a dead halt and vanished when the 4E developers chucked Tymanther at the Faerunian map.
+1. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 02:43:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Masked Lady was a really cool concept for the book or two she existed. I wouldn't mind having the Masked lady instead of the E and V back. For me the important part is to restore the beacon of light for all those drow pc characters in the official realms.
This is one of the things that should be left uncertain. It may be that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are brother and sister, or two beings in one. None can actually say. The important matter, as you say, is that they and their quest are still present in the new era of the Realms. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 03:54:46
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As long as Lolth exists, keeping a stranglehold on the drow, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun will exist in some form. They are symbols--the two paths of breaking free of Lolth, either through love or through hatred--and symbols do not vanish so easily.
Good feedback, everyone!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 04:09:32
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| They're symbols, true, but they're also more than that. And this doesn't change the fact that they're not there in canon anymore, no more stories about them will be told (because WotC decided that the drow must be ''kewl and evulz'') even tho it is clear that they are meaningful characters that a lot of fans would be happy to see them back in canon (this is what I read in your statement, at least). Whatever pleases them, I guess... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2012 04:10:04 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 04:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
I think that the core drow should be the evil elves that follow their demonic spider goddess. However, the realms drow should be more complex, because the drow play a greater role for realms players / fans. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun belong in core, because they have never been part of the core D&D drow pantheon. However, they do serve to make the realms drow distinct from core drow. I would like to see them play a larger role in realms and have grown from there experience in the LP series (as terrible as that series was). For instance, Eilistraee could become less gender bias and begin to trust her hand with a bow again. Vhaeraun could become CN and represent a nonevil, nongood choice for shady drow characters. The fact that they were not restored in the Menzo book, I view as a huge failure and missed opportunity to show that complexity is being restored to the realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I don't think WotC is going to outline specifically which deities are back. Or, more accurately, they won't list which deities AREN'T back. Instead, we'll have a core of deities who are definitely there (or at least their churches are active and popular)
I think the important thing here is that the core is not to small. Most of the times this discussion comes up there is a suggestion of doing only X number of deities. The "core" deities should be a list of deities that doesn't cost the realms depth in favor of oversimplification. Instead of starting with a number in mind, the design team should be looking at what deities will have churches and shrines mentioned in the setting and those deities should all be covered.
Little snip from Matt James' scroll :
quote:
[i]Originally posted
As for the gods...they're ALL coming back so it's a moot point now anyway :)
Also have heard a few times now that they will not be very detailed at all, leaving us free to use which ever ones fit our needs. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 05:01:57
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quote:
But as you look ahead to 5e, do you really want to see MORE drow coverage, or would you be interested in seeing drow return more to their roots, as the Realms over all is doing?
Personally, I'd like to read about the newly changed dark elves, such as Qarlynd and those in the City of Hope. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 05:22:09
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I think it is still fairly likely that in the setting we will still see stuff like Suzail contains the following major temples and shrines to the following deities. The deities that need to be mention in those kinds of descriptions should receive enough depth for a new DM to run them without making everything up except the name and domains. They don't need stat blocks, but they do need details about the church and their goals. Also, the they are all coming back seems to be more a statement of none will be declared dead, not that every previous deity will receive support. To give a more concrete example:
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I agree with Tarlyn about providing a list of active deities and some notes about how to run their worshipers, but I don't think that list necessarily needs to include *ALL* the deities that are around. I think it should be a short list: my ideal distribution is 7 popular adventuring deities (Helm, Torm, Tymora, Mask, Mystra, Sharess, Mielikki), 8 more "commonly worshiped mostly by NPCs" deities (my picks would be: Chauntea, Corellon, Ilmater, Kelemvor, Amaunator/Lathander, Sune, Talos, Waukeen), and 5 "evil and probably worshiped by villains" deities (Bane, Cyric, Loviatar, Shar, Beshaba) for a total listing of 20 deities that represents the "most common deities in a standard Realms game." And then (here's the key) include a phrase something like:
I would say every deity listed above is worth mentioning. Notice that 20 has been selected as the number of deities for this list rather than examining what will be referenced in the campaign setting book. I think it is fairly likely that most ports cities will contain a shrine to Umberlee and that dwarf players are probably interested in the church of Moradin just to name a few important deities missing above. I think even more deities would need to be added to the above list, but Umberlee and Moradin seem particularly glaring omissions. The deities receiving details on their churches activites and not just a listing in a table should be selected with care and not limited by an arbitrary number, but by examining what deities followers fulfill an important role in the realms.
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Tarlyn Embersun |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 05:52:51
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quote:
Originally posted by doctorbadwolf
You guys gonna axe Netheril and make Myth Drannor a ruin again, while you're at it?
At what point have you just shoved all forward movement in the setting out a window?
I'm sorry, but this just...this upsets me greatly. I won't edit it, but I will say...read with the understanding that I'm getting weary of recent events that seem a lot like over-corrections rather than steering back on course. I'm hoping this isn't such a case.
Agreed.
I'd like WotC to keep the continent of Laerakond around and I don't mind the idea of Mulhorand and Unther returning...up to a point.
I think a re-swapping Tymanther and Akanul with Mulhorand and Unther wholesale and leaving behind a few genasi and dragonborn in the Realms as the only sign of those continents' time in the Realms is a bad idea.
Tymather and Akanul have done far more IMO to make that region of the Realms interesting and useful to gamers than Unther and Mulhorand ever did. The former have earned their place in the Realms while the later? Well, they may have been nice to read about but setting a Realms campaign there? No thanks.
Better the nations merge in some manner. I'd much rather aspects of each remain and let DMs and players decide which becomes dominant through WotC sponsored adventures. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 23 Aug 2012 05:54:55 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 06:03:43
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Honestly, my biggest dislike of the post Spellplague Forgotten Realms (or 1479 DR) was the little detail we got overall. At first, when it was released, I thought the less detail would all me further freedom in doing whatever I wanted in the Realms. But, now I can see that was a mistake, because I always had that ability in the first place. I guess it just took me something like that to fully illustrate it.
One of the things that I am hearing that I don't like is that the parts of Abeir are going away and we're getting back Mexico and Egypt. Let me just say, what a waste! Tymanther actually had promise. Akanûl was interesting. Returned Abeir could've received SO much more "original" attention that it was begging for lore. Now we're told that Mexico needs to come back and people can't play as Egyptians so that needs to come back as well? 
And sure, I can keep those in my games (which I intend to) but will we see novels set there? Will we see lore about it? Will there be more adventurs there abouts? I'm pretty sure the answer to those questions is "No". And yet, I doubt we'll see indepth and interesting information about Mulhorand or Maztica because they've had 25+ years to do that and they sat on their hands  . Please |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 06:32:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
And sure, I can keep those in my games (which I intend to) but will we see novels set there? Will we see lore about it? Will there be more adventurs there abouts? I'm pretty sure the answer to those questions is "No". And yet, I doubt we'll see indepth and interesting information about Mulhorand or Maztica because they've had 25+ years to do that and they sat on their hands . Please
I thought Mulhorand and the old Empires in 3e were on a decent track towards a version that would better fit the setting. They just needed a regional book to really push them all the way, but regional supplements no longer seem to be part of WotC's usual release schedule (or repertoire for that matter) aside from one maybe two books.
You're probably right. It's a shame, based on previous treatment these areas will likely get no further attention to fully work them into the setting despite swapping between Abeir and Toril yet again.
I'm kind of afraid those elements returned with the next bout of changes could quickly fall back into the same old. Like Mystra becoming an interventionist demi-overgod again because WotC had years to repair that portrayal.
Already I kind of get a GHotR Tyr-lite vibe from Amaunator and Torm.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 06:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
And sure, I can keep those in my games (which I intend to) but will we see novels set there? Will we see lore about it? Will there be more adventurs there abouts? I'm pretty sure the answer to those questions is "No". And yet, I doubt we'll see indepth and interesting information about Mulhorand or Maztica because they've had 25+ years to do that and they sat on their hands . Please
I thought Mulhorand and the old Empires in 3e were on a decent track towards a version that would better fit the setting. They just needed a regional book to really push them all the way, but regional supplements no longer seem to be part of WotC's usual release schedule (or repertoire for that matter) aside from one maybe two books.
You're probably right. It's a shame, based on previous treatment these areas will likely get no further attention to fully work them into the setting despite swapping between Abeir and Toril yet again.
If they were to say "hey, we know people like Mulhorand and Unther and Maztica so we're gonna write novels about these places and perhaps do some articles here and there, I might be a little more open minded about those places. But as they stand, I just hate the overtly RL parallels. I accept that Baldur's Gate, Amn, Sembia, and Waterdeep gives off a Renissance-esque vibe as well as Cormyr is your typical French/English nobility with plate armored knights. But......Egypt? Really? Pharaohs and pyramids and the deity Set? There is nothing that I find original or Realmsian about these elements. Nothing.
These aspects protray a "everything including the kitchen sink" campaign setting and it's something that I don't feel is very positive. At least with Tymanther and Akanûl and Returned Abeir there was something NEW to work with. Something fresh and inspiring and original which, to me, screams 'The Realms'! To see them wiped away with practically 0% lore put into it seems so.......lazy.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I'm kind of afraid those elements returned with the next bout of changes could quickly fall back into the same old. Like Mystra becoming an interventionist demi-overgod again because WotC had years to repair that portrayal.
Already I kind of get a GHotR Tyr-lite vibe from Amaunator and Torm.
Yea, I can hope that if/when they bring back Mystra, they leave her alone and in return, she can say in the FAR back part of the setting for a long while. As for Tyr, I'll NOT be happy to see him return if he does so. I think Helm, Torm, Bahamut, Amaunator, and Ilmater are all the Lawful Good deites espoucing honor, justice, and chivalry that the Realms needs to support at this time. Another flavor of the same stuff is just more of the same but taking up word count and space. (and this is coming from a guy who had 3 Tyrran clerics and 2 paladins) |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 08:35:19
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| You couldn't be more wrong, the Old Empires had far more potential, backed by thousands of years of history and mythology, than some designers pathetic attempt to port nth militaristic reptile race in the Realms. |
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PaulBestwick
Seeker
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 12:13:41
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I have to speak in favour of the Old Empires. These regions have loads of history that ties in with their surrounding nations. Read the source books for those regions, things that tie in with places as far away as Impiltur (in this cast Lost Empires of Faerun). Mulhorand is the great lasting empire, founded during the early part of the Golden Age of Netheril. I for one aim to get the 2nd Edition "Old Empires" book once it becomes available again electronically. The Old Empires need a little TLC to show the potential.
On seperate but related point, the inconsistency with which the Spellplague affected various regions was a major source of discontent amongst the existing fan community at the time. Lets have some consistency this time around, if it came from Abeir then it goes back there, I can accept a little roughness around the edges, like the Mulhorand city that stayed behind when the worlds merged/mixed, but whole regions or nations being left behind would mean that AO is incompetant and as such I think that it would show the whole process as flawed. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 12:47:10
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Agreed. Mulhorand was far superior to Tymanther. Nevermind that, unlike Tymanther, it had centuries of shared history with the surrounding area. Particularly with Thay. 3E was on the cusp of a war between Mulhorand and Thay and then, POOF, Mulhorand disappeared and Thay became a nation where most of the people are zombies. Talk about sucking out everything of interest from the region.
I will agree, though, that we don't need Tyr back. One of the few good things that happened in 4E was the removal of Tyr and the elevation of Torm to greater god status. I'd hate to see that changed in the 5E Realms. Torm's far more interesting, and his personality, history (Chalsembyr. He was also likely alive when the Dead Three were alive. Did they meet in life? And if so, what happened?) and relationships (Like his enmity with Bane) is a far more worthwhile thing to explore than anything Tyr has to offer. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Elsenrail
Seeker
Poland
72 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 12:54:44
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@Diffan and Jeremy Grenemyer - good points.
I've just realised that, actually, I've never played a game in this region, Moreover, I've never read any novels about those lands. They were never attractive for gaming reasons, because there were too many similarities with the real world (and if I play D&D, I leave the real world behind - that's the point of the game). Personally, I would like those regions merged with the Abeir parts somehow, so that Tymanther and Akanul remain in some (diminished) form.
As far as the gods are concerned, Matt James statemnt that they are ALL coming back really sadens me. That is a shortcut in the design process.
What will happen to Torm? He has Tyr's portfolio now, and it fits him. |
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Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E
