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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 10:27:34
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Well I'm not going to give you an in-depth analysis of the novel. I leave that to those more qualified than I...namely BEAST and others. This is simply a brief post concerning questions about some major points.
1. Drizzt and party survive(Obvious no?)
2. Jarlaxle does not make an appearance.
3. Pwent does though
4 Effron is the offspring of Dhalia and Alegeni
5. Dhalia and Entreri(not Drizzt...or so it seems) end up together.
6. Dennis...no Tam involvement.
7. There's a scene where it reminds me of the South Park episode where Cartman thinks he's dead and walks backward believing he will fade away. I wonder if anyone else will notice it.
8. A certain Balor makes an appearance. Guess who.
9. Herzgo does die and Dhalia is the one that kills him.
10. And finally(though there is obviously more in the novel to speak of)At the end of the book....It seems that RAS is setting up Drizzt to fight so many enemies at once....If the prologue and Epilogue of The Orc King didn't happen...I would find it hard pressed to believe Drizzt would survive. BTW forgot to mention above...Drizzt is without Guen.
A very entertaining read.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 18:28:03
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I was confused about the Jarlaxle bits, they mention him a lot and Drizzt and Dhalia act like he is dead and the drow don't know it...but if he's dead I missed all that happening, I read it quickly though. And Kimmuriel is still in charge of the BD? The last pages made that clear even though Kimmuriel didn't really make an appearance. The Masoj bit was interesting.
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 03:06:37
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| According to the end of Gauntylgrym. Jarlaxle and Arthrogate are alive still. |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 07:42:24
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I'm only halfway through, but I cheated and flipped to the end. I don't know whether it's because I psyched myself into the thought of a giant epicly awesome death for Entreri* that I know isn't going to come, or I'm just terribly disinterested in the drow in gauntylgrym storyline at the moment, but I'm not really enjoying it that much.
*yes, I want one of my all-time favorite fictional characters to get killed off. |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 08:38:22
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Entreri "death scene" was one that had me in tears from laughing. Especially the comments from Drizzt afterwards.
And also with the Shade's mentioning Drizzt maybe something more than anyone including Drizzy knows...its been mentioned quite a few times. From the drow priestess in the Hunter Blades series. To the Transition series where it seems he is on another level with his fighting the Dracolich. And in Gauntylgrym ..when Jarlaxle was mentioning him being " The one who escaped". |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 05:24:46
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Or maybe we haven't scrapped the whole idea of him being not necessarily a plaything of lolth's, yet someone whose existence has created enough chaos that he had her favor.
I don't know. I'm finding myself incredibly disinterested in future books. I liked the first two parts of this trilogy, but this last installment was an enormous let-down. Entreri should have died, and while I'd like to read a compelling argument as to why it's good RAS didn't kill him off (all I've seen on his boards, which I admit I only skimmed) were people saying they're glad he's not dead cos they'd miss him. I'd miss him. I love that character. But he needed to die), I don't see my opinion on the matter being swayed. Throughout the entire book, perhaps because of the time jump, perhaps because of his post-sellswords changes, I felt like I was watching a different character most of the time. Sure, there was the occasional cynicism and practicality that reared its head from time to time--accompanied by repeated "shocks" to drizzt's system as us readers were beaten over the head with the heavy-handed explanation as to--oh right, this is still Artemis Entreri, top assassin and not a cute and cuddly BFF. All of his thoughtful understanding and empathy toward Dalhia was fine in that it showed he learned something from the whole Jarlaxle experience, but just reinforces the fact that he's done. He needs to die. There's nothing left to do with him short of keeping him along for the ride as another overpowered sword, short of a moral redemption, and I shouldn't even have to mention how awful an idea that is. I mean, even Drizzt knows that can't happen. There is no further room, or necessity, for character growth, he was cool with dying, let him die.
I hate that Jarlaxle isn't back yet. That one does need to be alive.
The combat scenes seemed remarkably weak here, either due to the sheer number of Salvatore combat scenes I've read (and frequently skimmed) over what, 30 some books now? But i dont doubt that ras can still pull off a fight scene that captivates me--theres one from the last book i enjoyed greatly, read every word and didnt skim with a giant goofy smile on my face. There was none of that here. The other part of me blames the over abundance of exclamation marks. Yes, the number of times I saw sentences ending in that particular punctuation just provided me with a false sense of ok, I'm supposed to be impressed/surprised here, rather than using words to convey a compelling twist in the battle. While normally I'd be noting the overused word or expression of the novel here, in a joking and manner with a fondness for that habit of RAS', here it just cheapened things.
Now, here's where my new-ness to the realms probably plays the biggest part: this was the first Drizzt trilogy I read in real-time, I. E. as the books were released (well, more or less since I caught up to gauntlygrym by the time it was getting released on paperback, but that still put me waiting for neverwinter). I've had a lot of time to read realms novels by a number of other authors and shed any mild Drizzt fanboyishness I may have started with, so I'm finding myself being more critical of how overpowered Drizzt et al are. Those were some of the simplest shades out there. If a battle between Drizzt, Entreri, and Dalhia between the shadovar reads "Drizzt realized immediately that these shades were no novices to combat" and then ends a paragraph later with a quick stab to the throat as they're disposed nearly as soon as the fight began, it's as weakly done as the exclamation mark-ending statements. If these guys were all I knew of the netherese or shades, I'd seriously wonder how they ever managed anything. Shadow stepping is just a means of escape, rather than a tool at their disposal? No one has any regenerative abilities to heal themselves of their wounds? I can accept that not every single shade is the most elite fighter in all of Faerun, but not that 99% of them are complete pushovers. Most of these guys are as pathetic as kobolds.
The anticipation monster also got me. I was pretty convinced of entreri's death, and while I expected it to not play out the way I would have done it, I still expected it to happen. I psyched myself into a pretty epic ending for this trilogy. Now, I know the end of a trilogy is only the end of a trilogy, and not the actual end for the series. It's like a season finale for a tv show. It's supposed to wrap up the main story while leaving a couple threads unanswered for the next. I'd be a little harsh if I said this book didn't do that at all--Alegni is dead, and the Thay/Shadovar in Neverwinter plot line resolved, with the on-going thirst for revenge from Effron and drow set-up (as obviously that's the next product direction from wotc) to be carried over. It's the first time I've looked at one of these trilogies as a beginning, middle, and end with a wait til the next "season." and I'm just not really satisfied that it didn't feel like enough of an end. Anyway, that's enough blabbering from me, I've already accidentally hit post while trying to write this on a touch screen and had to edit once. Moving on....
Edit: oh right. I forgot. The Guenhyvar plot line. Ive seen online a lot of people saying the ghost king endong made them cry. When the shifter showed up to tell Drizzt they had her, that nearly got me. I won't watch that movie where will smith is the last person on the planet because I know the dog dies. I've seen a fair number of dead people (I'm a paramedic). A dog that gets hit by a car is way more depressing than a human getting run over and killed. Don't mess with the pets. |
Edited by - Yoss on 13 Aug 2012 06:08:54 |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 07:12:37
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| Yoss: If my memory serves me correctly...Drizzt has Guen in the prologue and epilogue of The Orc King. Which (again if my memory is correct) takes place after this series. When Drizzt is back in the Silver Marches. So Guen's captivity will prob be short lived. |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 08:40:14
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| Good point, and I don't doubt, given how few characters get truly killed off, that she'll be back anyway. Temporary or not, though, I was not a fan of that plot element. Ive also got am irrational fear of spiders and poison ivy. I think my post actually sounds a bit more negative than I really do feel toward the book. I see that I was somewhat erroneously calling it a trilogy, since the next book in march is being titled as part four of the same series (title is up on amazon as the Last Threshold) and despite my lack of enthusiasm about this one, I'll read that when it comes out. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 09:10:14
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I actually liked this book better than the 2nd one in the trilogy, which was really slow for me. I agree with some of your criticisms Yoss, especially regarding the fight scenes. Overall though, I don't think it was Entreri's time to die. Going back to the Jarlaxle link (wasn't too disappointed he didn't make an appearance in the book, I think Salvatore knows he can't keep going back to that well every time Drizzt faces some powerful enemy...although I'm sure he will show up again in the next trilogy), something doesn't strike me as correct about Entreri's belief that Jarlaxle sold him out to the Netherese. Not so much that Artemis' memory is wrong, just that maybe someone made him believe it was Jarlaxle selling him out when it really wasn't. I can't see Jarlaxle actually doing that to Entreri even after he had left him.
As for the plots, I'm glad that they finally tied up the loose ends of the Thayans (really, we don't need more of Tam in the Drizzt books) and of the Herzgo Shadovar angle. I like much more the angle of Drizzt having to go after them to rescue Guen than the constant "should I be following Dhalia on her vengeance quest" morality tale. I've always wanted Drizzt and Entreri to eventually be companions, even if only in the short term. Dhalia and Drizzt together never fully worked for me either, whereas her and Entreri do for me.
Also, I like the inclusion of the dark elf storyline in this book. Seemed dumb to me that Guantlgrym would be found but then nothing would happen with it. I've always been interested in House Xorlarrin, and they seem the perfect candidates to strike out on their own in a venture such as taking over Gauntlgrym. The link back to Dantrag in Tiago was a nice bit as well, as even during the War of the Spider Queen I was bored with Andzrel as Weapons Master of Baenare. Seems obvious he will be yet another enemy for Drizzt, although the fact that his main new weapon of power is a scimitar seems a little too much of a forgone conclusion that it will be Drizzt's next item of power he will acquire.
Errtu coming back was inevitable, although I hope he has some new twist on it as we've already read that book before. All in all I liked this trilogy more than the previous one, as the character really had gotten stale for me but now at least there are new companions and new enemies (aside from Errtu). It was able to tie up him moving on from the past (Bruenor's death) and getting through most of all the clutter that was part of the plot to get to that point (Herzgo v. Thay). Entreri also has to go get his dagger back, that just occurred to me. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 15:19:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
6. Dennis...no Tam involvement.
Ha! I was about to google it to find out if Szass Tam made a royal appearance in it. Thanks for saving me the trouble. [Now I wonder why he keeps on sending incompetent lackeys. Tsk tsk...] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 18:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Well I'm not going to give you an in-depth analysis of the novel. I leave that to those more qualified than I...namely BEAST and others.
Grazzi for the nod.  I haven't read it yet, and usually don't for a while. I don't do retail. I wait for it to come out at the library, and then buy the omnibus collector's editions.
That said, I stopped caring about spoilers a long time ago. I've found that when I read books for the first time, I almost always have a different take on them than a lot of other people, so their spoilers are often irrelevant to me, anyway. 
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10. And finally(though there is obviously more in the novel to speak of)At the end of the book....It seems that RAS is setting up Drizzt to fight so many enemies at once....If the prologue and Epilogue of The Orc King didn't happen...I would find it hard pressed to believe Drizzt would survive.
OK, Bob has cryptically referenced the TOK bits recently. He says that we should be careful not to try to pin those down too precisely, as he needs some flexibility within which to place all that's coming up here, soon. I have hypothesized a possible date for the TOK bits of ~1472 DR, but that's only a very loose approximation. That guess was based on the numerous references to those bits coming a century after the signing of the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge (1372 DR), but that could be 90 years, or 110, for all we know.
We'll just have to wait and see . . . |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 19:05:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I was confused about the Jarlaxle bits, they mention him a lot and Drizzt and Dhalia act like he is dead and the drow don't know it...but if he's dead I missed all that happening, I read it quickly though. And Kimmuriel is still in charge of the BD? The last pages made that clear even though Kimmuriel didn't really make an appearance.
Jarlaxle has placed Kimmuriel in charge of Bregan D'aerthe often, whenever the mercenary leader desired to go off on side ventures with his friend d'jour. He did so in "The Sellswords" and The Ghost King, too, remember? Gauntlgrym tells us that Jar did so again when the merc leader wanted to learn more about the dwarven city, and when he did indeed learn more, he kept the information away from Kimmuriel, only sharing it with a select few. 'Twould appear that whatever Jar is doing, he is still operating as a rogue apart from the brotherhood of rogues, in a sense.
At the end of Gaunt., Drizzt and Dahlia watched Jar and Arthrogate appear to be consumed by the primordial's last big fiery plume, and then they saw the merc duo no more. Thus, the protagonists thought the mercs dead. They continued to think so in Neverwinter. 'Twould appear that they still think so in Charon's Claw.
Now, do you mean to say that Drizzt and Dahlia think that the drow don't know that Jar is dead? Or do you mean to say that the drow, in fact, do not know that Jar is, in fact, dead? Those are two very different things.
Knowing Jar, I'm thinking he would've checked back in with Menzo by now--either with Kimmy, or Gromph, at least. He was networking with Valas Hune in Gaunt., with Kimmy's permission, so I don't see him leaving his closest allies completely in the dark for this long. Thus, the drow probably know Jar's still alive and kicking. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 20:25:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
I liked the first two parts of this trilogy, but this last installment was an enormous let-down.
NEWS FLASH: It's no longer a trilogy. WOTC and RAS have repackaged it as a four-part saga, instead: "The Neverwinter Saga". Book IV will be called The Last Threshold. (Methinks this is reminiscent of how some folks consider The Orc King to practically be a Book IV of "The Hunter's Blades", rather than a Book I of "Transitions". Well, this time around, it's official.)
[EDIT: Ah, I see you caught this, Yoss.]
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Entreri should have died, and while I'd like to read a compelling argument as to why it's good RAS didn't kill him off (all I've seen on his boards, which I admit I only skimmed) were people saying they're glad he's not dead cos they'd miss him. I'd miss him. I love that character. But he needed to die), I don't see my opinion on the matter being swayed. Throughout the entire book, perhaps because of the time jump, perhaps because of his post-sellswords changes, I felt like I was watching a different character most of the time. Sure, there was the occasional cynicism and practicality that reared its head from time to time--accompanied by repeated "shocks" to drizzt's system as us readers were beaten over the head with the heavy-handed explanation as to--oh right, this is still Artemis Entreri, top assassin and not a cute and cuddly BFF. All of his thoughtful understanding and empathy toward Dalhia was fine in that it showed he learned something from the whole Jarlaxle experience, but just reinforces the fact that he's done. He needs to die. There's nothing left to do with him short of keeping him along for the ride as another overpowered sword, short of a moral redemption, and I shouldn't even have to mention how awful an idea that is. I mean, even Drizzt knows that can't happen. There is no further room, or necessity, for character growth[...].
Says you, bub. But he's Bob's (well, you know, WOTC's, character), so it's up to them whether there's any more room for growth and development, there. It sounds awfully self-centered and presumptuous of you to declare that there's nothing left for him to do.
A lot of people decry the Drizzt books for a (supposed) lack of character development. But here, you're decrying it for--what?--too much character development? You're basically saying that he's changed too much, so kill him off. You sound like what you really wanted was a static Artemis Entreri, who never really changed all that much. You don't sound like you've liked his recent changes, so you want him dead to keep him from changing any more. I find it funny that people complain about Drizzt stories from such totally opposite ends of the spectrum.
Tracy Hickam was at a small Houston convention with Bob this past weekend, and Tracy touched on this exact same phenomenon. He said that when he was tapped to write his latest book, Wayne of Gotham, he set out to do the single most comprehensive, multi-edition-faithful version of Batman ever. He did lots of research across all the comics, all the cartoons, all the movies, all the toy packaging, etc., to ensure that he got it all in there. But when the reviews started coming in, they still complained. Some griped that he still didn't know what he was talking about, and should just stick with medieval fantasy. Others whined that he stuck too closely to the established lore, and that they had already heard all of that stuff before anyway. So there's just no pleasing some folks!
I look at it as I would an elf: if you live that long, then you're probably gonna go through a whole lot of phases in your life. It wouldn't seem normal for you to be just one, static self, for all that time. Entreri is beginning to display this sort of phase-shift thing now, because of his shadification. Heck yeah, it's odd to me as a real-world reader. But it makes perfect sense to me, in world.
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he was cool with dying, let him die.
Ahem, back up there a sec. What Entreri actually thought to himself before our reading eyes was that he had always told himself that he didn't care if he died, and that he thought that he preferred to die rather than continue as a slave to Herzgo Alegni; but he didn't know if he even could really die, because of the Shadovar's ability to keep bringing him back with the sword.
More importantly, Entreri second-guessed himself and wondered if the truth was that he really didn't want to die, at all, regardless of Alegni and the Shadovar and Charon's Claw (Neverwinter, P1:C5). He likened this to "cowardice".
What Entreri wanted most was to be free from the tiefling and the sword--not to die.
And so, now he is free from the tiefling and the sword, and not dead.
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The other part of me blames the over abundance of exclamation marks. Yes, the number of times I saw sentences ending in that particular punctuation just provided me with a false sense of ok, I'm supposed to be impressed/surprised here, rather than using words to convey a compelling twist in the battle. While normally I'd be noting the overused word or expression of the novel here, in a joking and manner with a fondness for that habit of RAS', here it just cheapened things.
Methinks Bob is experimenting with his writing. He reads other people's use of language online or in other books, and then he tries it on for size, himself. He's having fun with it. Yeah, we might notice it and wince. But it's trendy and faddish and up-to-date, so he's going for it. (Frankly, I throw this in the same boat as starting up a facebook account to connect with fans, too, but that's just me. Whatevah!)
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[...] I'm finding myself being more critical of how overpowered Drizzt et al are. Those were some of the simplest shades out there. If a battle between Drizzt, Entreri, and Dalhia between the shadovar reads "Drizzt realized immediately that these shades were no novices to combat" and then ends a paragraph later with a quick stab to the throat as they're disposed nearly as soon as the fight began, it's as weakly done as the exclamation mark-ending statements. If these guys were all I knew of the netherese or shades, I'd seriously wonder how they ever managed anything. Shadow stepping is just a means of escape, rather than a tool at their disposal? No one has any regenerative abilities to heal themselves of their wounds? I can accept that not every single shade is the most elite fighter in all of Faerun, but not that 99% of them are complete pushovers. Most of these guys are as pathetic as kobolds.
Is it that the heroes are overpowered, or that the villains are underpowered? Bob has stated that he has a personal soft spot for truly heroic heroes, and wants to be careful not to blur the line between hero and antihero too much. His most cited example is how when the lead lawyer from the TV show The Practice, Bobby O'Donnell, actively helped a defendant client to circumvent the law, which lead to cops getting killed, at that point O'Donnell actually had blood on his hands, and was no longer just a piece of the machine, but had actually been corrupted, so Bob (Salvatore) could no longer look favorably on the show anymore. Methinks that Bob has got a deeply ingrained fear of showing too much respect for the villains in his stories, because he just doesn't want to be seen as glorifying evil. It's not about public perception, as his own personal perception of himself.
I have toyed with the idea of celebrating antiheroes in books and movies and TV shows from time to time, and I can enjoy both anti and full-on goody-goody heroes. But methinks there must be a reason I keep coming back to the Drizzt stories, moreso than to any others: I love truly goodly heroes, too, and inwardly fear getting too cozy or chummy or celebratory of the dark side, as well.
At the end of the day, it's entirely possible that this sort of thing limits Bob's potential as a writer. It may be his Achilles heel, I guess. 
Or, conversely, it may simply be what solidly anchors him within one type of fiction: old-fashioned, deep-down good-guy tales. And there's nothing wrong with that! (This gratuitous use of an exclamation mark was fully intentional.  )
quote:
The anticipation monster also got me. I was pretty convinced of entreri's death, and while I expected it to not play out the way I would have done it, I still expected it to happen. I psyched myself into a pretty epic ending for this trilogy. Now, I know the end of a trilogy is only the end of a trilogy, and not the actual end for the series. It's like a season finale for a tv show. It's supposed to wrap up the main story while leaving a couple threads unanswered for the next. I'd be a little harsh if I said this book didn't do that at all--Alegni is dead, and the Thay/Shadovar in Neverwinter plot line resolved, with the on-going thirst for revenge from Effron and drow set-up (as obviously that's the next product direction from wotc) to be carried over. It's the first time I've looked at one of these trilogies as a beginning, middle, and end with a wait til the next "season." and I'm just not really satisfied that it didn't feel like enough of an end.
Remember that Bob has repeatedly told fans that he doesn't really go into his books thinking in terms of trilogies or quartets or whatever. It's the publisher who does that. They have to kinda-sorta negotiate with him to impose their structure on him. But he just thinks in terms of one, grand, ongoing story, with occasional side-detours into secondary characters. Recall that from the very beginning, Bob defeated the main antagonist (the Crystal Shard), while still leaving it open for that antagonist to propel other stories (Streams of Silver, Passage to Dawn, The Silent Blade, Servant of the Shard, The Ghost King); whacked one minor antagonist (Kessell) while preserving another (Dendybar); inserted a hook that could span across many different books (the ramifications of Regis having stolen the ruby pendant; see The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, The Halfling's Gem, The Legacy); and vaguely hinted at an intriguing past to the main protagonist (Drizzt's dark history as a dark elf; "The Icewind Dale Trilogy", "The Dark Elf Trilogy", "Legacy of the Drow", "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", Gauntlgrym, and apparently now, Charon's Claw). Just this weekend, once again Bob hinted at the possibility of being able to go back in the timeline and revisit the familiar characters at earlier times in their lives, which would be a nice change from the recent drive to keep driving the central story forward. So be careful not to read too much into WOTC's packaging of the books as this mini-series or that one--it's all one interconnected, entwined story, as far as its creator is concerned.
I know that for me, personally, I used to get depressed any time I got to Book III of a trilogy, because I felt a sense of anticipation (dread, really), that I was coming to the end of the story, and that loose ends would be tied off, people would die, and my fun would be terminated for ever and ever. I felt this way with The Halfling's Gem, and once again with Sojourn.
Little did I know.  If the fact that the Drizzt storyline has continued for this long wasn't enough in itself, Bob has repeatedly thumped us over the head with the fact that he considers it all just one big continuous tale, and he plans to keep on writing it as long as it's fun (and profitable) for him. Thus, there's just no need for that sense of dread because we're getting to Book (whatever) of (whatever) mini-series of the day. Just keep reading on!
quote:
Edit: oh right. I forgot. The Guenhyvar plot line. Ive seen online a lot of people saying the ghost king endong made them cry. When the shifter showed up to tell Drizzt they had her, that nearly got me. I won't watch that movie where will smith is the last person on the planet because I know the dog dies. I've seen a fair number of dead people (I'm a paramedic). A dog that gets hit by a car is way more depressing than a human getting run over and killed. Don't mess with the pets.
I'm a dog person. I love dogs--always have. My grandmother used to have cats, and while one of them was the most patient, longsuffering, sweetest little ladies you could ever imagine, the big one was a mean little beeyotch to anybody but my granny! So ever since my earliest days, I've never really considered myself a cat person.
But this weekend, after this Houston convention, I visited with my little brother and played with his pets a little. His dog is going through an allergic reaction to fleas, and the poor thing has scratched most of her fur off. 
I also got to meet his little kitten: a jet black, yellow-eyed tyke who likes to pounce and bite! So far, he seems to only be playing. I was struck by how much I liked the little guy, despite how much he likes to bite.  Methinks I was just subconsciously projecting Guenhwyvar onto the little dude! 
Better watch out for that Bob Salvatore guy: his story memes are insidious! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 13 Aug 2012 20:56:42 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 20:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
6. Dennis...no Tam involvement.
Ha! I was about to google it to find out if Szass Tam made a royal appearance in it. Thanks for saving me the trouble. [Now I wonder why he keeps on sending incompetent lackeys. Tsk tsk...]
Why, Dennis, he (Bob) keeps sending incompetent lackeys so that Tam-fans like you can't say that he's doing it wrong. When he features Tam, you say that he didn't portray Tam right. At least with a dumkoff lackey, you can't exactly say that he did that one wrong! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 21:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
[... S]omething doesn't strike me as correct about Entreri's belief that Jarlaxle sold him out to the Netherese. Not so much that Artemis' memory is wrong, just that maybe someone made him believe it was Jarlaxle selling him out when it really wasn't. I can't see Jarlaxle actually doing that to Entreri even after he had left him.
I'll go so far as to say it: Methinks Entreri's "memory" is wrong.
When Bob wrote "The Third Level", he said that Entreri remembered running away from Memnon at age 9 to live in Calimport. But in Road of the Patriarch, Bob wrote that Entreri was age 12 when he was sold into slavery and ended up in Calimport. Now, the truth is, Bob forgot the exact age, and has admitted that he and the editor goofed. But I have attempted to retcon this misnake by interpreting it as Entreri being ashamed and grief-stricken over having been sold out by his own mother, so his psyche has reconstructed the past by figuring him as decisively running away, and at an even younger age, rather than passively being someone else's victim. Artemis Entreri has ever been one to puff himself up as being the master of his own destiny. Well, since Jarlaxle shattered that delusion, it's only natural for Entreri to be royally peeved at him, so Entreri splits at the end of ROTP. Have the Shadovar show up, and have things go south for Entreri, and it's entirely possible that he could have misconstrued it as being the work of Jar and the drow. Or, as you just suggested, perhaps the Shadovar wished to weaken Entreri's defenses against them, by turning him even further against his former allies, the drow.
(Well, if so, then their plan only half-worked! )
Of course, it's Bob call, either way. But I for one want to find out that Jar did not betray Entreri, but has instead remained a loyal friend to him for all this time, even from a distance. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 21:18:53
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With regards to Entreri's feelings on death in this book...for the most part it comes across once they have the sword as either 1) they destroy the sword and it kills him (as he thinks it's what has been sustaining him for all this time) or 2) if they don't destroy the sword no matter what someone, somewhere will find it again and enslave him once more. There was a remark or two that even if he tried to wield it again, it would dominate him...which I found a little strange given that he was able to resist it eventually in the first fight against Herzgo.
All that being said, he's basically resigned to the fact that the sword must be destroyed and his subsequent death will be inevitable. He does say more than once though that it's "long past time" for his time to be at an end. I do find it odd though that Entreri never considers the shade essence he absorbed with his life-stealing dagger in the one R.A. short story as a reason for his longevity.
I didn't realize it was going to become a 4 part saga now, appreciate that info Beast! Rather interesting given I thought once Guantlgrym was released that he had signed on to do 6 more books, which was assumed to be 2 more trilogies. I wonder if after the 4th Neverwinter saga book, we'll get 2 books focusing on Artemis/Dhalia with the usual Jarlaxle thrown in. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 21:25:53
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
[... S]omething doesn't strike me as correct about Entreri's belief that Jarlaxle sold him out to the Netherese. Not so much that Artemis' memory is wrong, just that maybe someone made him believe it was Jarlaxle selling him out when it really wasn't. I can't see Jarlaxle actually doing that to Entreri even after he had left him.
I'll go so far as to say it: Methinks Entreri's "memory" is wrong.
When Bob wrote "The Third Level", he said that Entreri remembered running away from Memnon at age 9 to live in Calimport. But in Road of the Patriarch, Bob wrote that Entreri was age 12 when he was sold into slavery and ended up in Calimport. Now, the truth is, Bob forgot the exact age, and has admitted that he and the editor goofed. But I have attempted to retcon this misnake by interpreting it as Entreri being ashamed and grief-stricken over having been sold out by his own mother, so his psyche has reconstructed the past by figuring him as decisively running away, and at an even younger age, rather than passively being someone else's victim. Artemis Entreri has ever been one to puff himself up as being the master of his own destiny. Well, since Jarlaxle shattered that delusion, it's only natural for Entreri to be royally peeved at him, so Entreri splits at the end of ROTP. Have the Shadovar show up, and have things go south for Entreri, and it's entirely possible that he could have misconstrued it as being the work of Jar and the drow. Or, as you just suggested, perhaps the Shadovar wished to weaken Entreri's defenses against them, by turning him even further against his former allies, the drow.
(Well, if so, then their plan only half-worked! )
Of course, it's Bob call, either way. But I for one want to find out that Jar did not betray Entreri, but has instead remained a loyal friend to him for all this time, even from a distance.
Given the length of time between the books, it's no surprise he forgot the exact age, although I never considered it that big of a deal, the basic idea was he was still a child at the time.
My thoughts on the betrayal are that others in the drow band would have reason to make Entreri think it was Jarlaxle that sold him out. Kimmuriel has never liked him, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him throw a little pain his way by making it seem as though it was Jarlaxle. Kimmuriel was the one who saved Artemis' lover in the Sellswords novels after she had tried to kill Artemis in her grief...for no real reason other than he seemed to see her as an asset they could get future use out of with regards to Entreri.
Real interested to see the Artemis/Drizzt relationship going forward, and the eventual reuniting with Jarlaxle (in this book, a ruse Drizzt is forced to use by invoking Jarlaxle's name/reputation seems normal to other drow from Menzo, thus leading Drizzt to question Dhalia's continued assertion to him that Jarlaxle died in Guantlgrym and to stop thinking he somehow escaped. It is never confirmed for them that he is indeed still alive (though us as readers know he is), but it's clear Drizzt has always suspected he would have a way to escape and survive. The fact that Entreri obviously has a beef with him to settle up on only makes it more obvious that he will make an appearance again at some point. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 21:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
I didn't realize it was going to become a 4 part saga now, appreciate that info Beast! Rather interesting given I thought once Guantlgrym was released that he had signed on to do 6 more books, which was assumed to be 2 more trilogies. I wonder if after the 4th Neverwinter saga book, we'll get 2 books focusing on Artemis/Dhalia with the usual Jarlaxle thrown in.
I think Bob was in the middle of writing/editing Gauntlgrym when he did the latest contract for 6 more books, so that meant two more trilogies in addition to Gaunt., or something odd, like this.
Oh, well. If you look at my chronology, I group the books together chronologically in various ways that don't necessarily jibe with the publishers' packaging, either. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 21:33:02
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
I didn't realize it was going to become a 4 part saga now, appreciate that info Beast! Rather interesting given I thought once Guantlgrym was released that he had signed on to do 6 more books, which was assumed to be 2 more trilogies. I wonder if after the 4th Neverwinter saga book, we'll get 2 books focusing on Artemis/Dhalia with the usual Jarlaxle thrown in.
I think Bob was in the middle of writing/editing Gauntlgrym when he did the latest contract for 6 more books, so that meant two more trilogies in addition to Gaunt., or something odd, like this.
Oh, well. If you look at my chronology, I group the books together chronologically in various ways that don't necessarily jibe with the publishers' packaging, either.
The fact the books aren't listed as a trilogy on the covers like Hunter's Blades was, but simply "The Neverwinter Saga Book X" supports your thinking. |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 22:33:56
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
At the end of Gaunt., Drizzt and Dahlia watched Jar and Arthrogate appear to be consumed by the primordial's last big fiery plume, and then they saw the merc duo no more. Thus, the protagonists thought the mercs dead. They continued to think so in Neverwinter. 'Twould appear that they still think so in Charon's Claw.
Let me get this straigth...
Drizzt watched Bruenor ride a flaming dragon over a cliff in Streams of Silver. Bruenor came back.
Dirzzt saw Wulfgar bury himself under tons of rock, in the clutches of a yochlol. Wulfgar came back.
Drizzt even saw his undead father take control of himself long enough to speak to Drizzt and kill himself instead of killing Drizzt.
Drizzt saw a tower collapse in 1000 Orcs (or one of those books), found Beurnor's helm, and assumed he and his friends were dead. They weren't.
Now he again sees someone disappear for a while, without any concrete proof their dead, but assumes their dead anyway.
No one stays dead around Drizzt... Why does he keep assuming people are dead when there is no body and when his own experience shows him he shouldn't think that? |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 22:47:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
At the end of Gaunt., Drizzt and Dahlia watched Jar and Arthrogate appear to be consumed by the primordial's last big fiery plume, and then they saw the merc duo no more. Thus, the protagonists thought the mercs dead. They continued to think so in Neverwinter. 'Twould appear that they still think so in Charon's Claw.
Let me get this straigth...
Drizzt watched Bruenor ride a flaming dragon over a cliff in Streams of Silver. Bruenor came back.
Dirzzt saw Wulfgar bury himself under tons of rock, in the clutches of a yochlol. Wulfgar came back.
Drizzt even saw his undead father take control of himself long enough to speak to Drizzt and kill himself instead of killing Drizzt.
Drizzt saw a tower collapse in 1000 Orcs (or one of those books), found Beurnor's helm, and assumed he and his friends were dead. They weren't.
Now he again sees someone disappear for a while, without any concrete proof their dead, but assumes their dead anyway.
No one stays dead around Drizzt... Why does he keep assuming people are dead when there is no body and when his own experience shows him he shouldn't think that?
He doesn't actually...he's the one convinced that Jarlaxle found some way to escape. Dhalia is the one constantly telling him that he's dead. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 00:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
Let me get this straigth...
Drizzt watched Bruenor ride a flaming dragon over a cliff in Streams of Silver. Bruenor came back.
Dirzzt saw Wulfgar bury himself under tons of rock, in the clutches of a yochlol. Wulfgar came back.
Drizzt even saw his undead father take control of himself long enough to speak to Drizzt and kill himself instead of killing Drizzt.
Drizzt saw a tower collapse in 1000 Orcs (or one of those books), found Beurnor's helm, and assumed he and his friends were dead. They weren't.
Now he again sees someone disappear for a while, without any concrete proof their dead, but assumes their dead anyway.
No one stays dead around Drizzt... Why does he keep assuming people are dead when there is no body and when his own experience shows him he shouldn't think that?
Well, you have a point that in the past, Drizzt didn't see the bodies up close, but rather merely had to assume based on observations from a distance, and those assumptions proved false. (I'll add that Zak's body falling from the stone bridge into the Acid Aerie, though, was certainly up close, and Zak never came back from that one.)
But with The Ghost King, Drizzt woke up to his cold, dead wife, and watched Bruenor carry Regis's cold, dead corpse out into the hallway, then watched the unicorn carry what appeared to be their spirits away, and then buried their still-cold bodies in the ground. ("She's not only merely dead; she's really most sincerely dead.") And then in Gauntlgrym, Drizzt saw the twinkle of life fade out of Bruenor's eyes as he collapsed there in Drizzt's arms, and watched Pwent twitch his last after being mauled by a vampire, and then helped to bury the two of them within the dwarven city. These deaths were not off at a distance, or merely assumed, but actual deaths. Drizzt witnessed these up close and personal.
Now, sure, rationally speaking, we could say that he should still be able to tell the difference between watching Bruenor die right there in his arms, and watching a flame rise up where Jar was and still merely assuming that the drow died. And we'd be right.
But the most profound consequence of The Ghost King was that Drizzt realized that all along, he had been presuming that the Companions would always pull through, and that no matter what, they would never really die. For all of his hand-wringing and navel-gazing, deep down, he had always considered them and their survival a given. Well, the Spellplague kicked his arse, and slapped him up side the head for ever assuming that.
So methinks it's actually quite natural for him to take perceived deaths seriously, now. His optimism and positive outlook were sapped by that infernal ribbon of blue energy in the sky.
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
He doesn't actually...he's the one convinced that Jarlaxle found some way to escape. Dhalia is the one constantly telling him that he's dead.
I wonder if Drizzt really is that convinced. Methinks he's just psyching himself up by repeating happy thoughts as a mantra, hoping to one day actually believe them. He's playing the part, just as he feels that she is playing a different one.
Perhaps there is a measure of desperation involved, too, compelling him to want to believe that Jar has somehow survived, simply out of fear of acknowledging the alternative. He may be in denial of his true feelings, and find it easier to tell a white lie to himself and others than to embrace his darker, truer suspicions. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 00:31:09
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| I don't know...in this case I don't think his belief that Jarlaxle may have survived is him playing that role or always hoping someone from his past his still alive. I think it's purely based around the fact that this is Jarlaxle, the drow of 1,000 tricks and trinkets...who always has the answer or contingency for everything. The character has been built up to be exactly that, and I believe that is what Drizzt is basing his continued belief off of. He never really wavers on it, and in Charon's Claw he is forced to drop Jarlaxle's name as part of a deception to some Menzo drow, which they buy completely based on Jarlaxle's reputation. It's presented as current orders he's received from him, and they all pretty much accept it...leading Drizzt to make a comment or two to Dhalia that it seems to confirm his belief that Jarlaxle somehow found a way to escape Gauntlgrym safely. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 05:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
I don't know...in this case I don't think his belief that Jarlaxle may have survived is him playing that role or always hoping someone from his past his still alive.
Again, since I haven't read this latest, I cannot speak for Drizzt's characterization here. I can only speak for his characterization in all the other books leading up to this one.
And in Neverwinter, he hoped Jar was still alive, but Dahlia insisted that Jar was not, and Drizzt really had no answer for her. He just hoped:
quote:
Drizzt wasn’t sure of that, of course, since he’d known Jarlaxle as the ultimate survivor of many seemingly impossible escapes, but he could only shrug against Dahlia’s assertion. (Nev., P1:C4)
And she just teased him endlessly over it:
quote:
Dahlia said, still grinning. "But that’s all in the past now. He’s dead, as we saw."
"I never argued otherwise."
"Not with me," Dahlia replied.
"Not with anyone."
"Not with Drizzt?" She paused and let that hang in the air for a few moments, clearly enjoying Drizzt’s obvious consternation. "You knew we wouldn’t find him, despite your hopes to the contrary. [...]" (Nev., P1:C4)
Drizzt wasn't so insistent that Jar had survived, there.
He also bluffed with the high captains by claiming to be close to Jarlaxle, but they called his bluff by telling him that Jar hadn't been seen in Luskan in months, which Drizzt interpreted as confirmation of Dahlia's claim.
It's, perhaps, possible that he continued to bluff people by pretending to be close to Jarlaxle because he was still a little hopeful, in Charon's Claw.
But by the end of Nev., Drizzt was resolved that he and Entreri were all that was left of the old guard. He accepted that Jar and Pwent were dead. That was an important moment of realization for Drizzt, because it drove him to accept Entreri as a traveling companion, once again.
So if Drizzt is somehow clearly optimistic that Jar is still alive in CC, then that is a marked reversal of his position in the immediately preceding book.
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He never really wavers on it[...].
As shown above, he certainly wavered in it in the last book. So it's interesting that you found him so insistent, here.
quote:
and in Charon's Claw he is forced to drop Jarlaxle's name as part of a deception to some Menzo drow, which they buy completely based on Jarlaxle's reputation. It's presented as current orders he's received from him, and they all pretty much accept it...leading Drizzt to make a comment or two to Dhalia that it seems to confirm his belief that Jarlaxle somehow found a way to escape Gauntlgrym safely.
That it worked out for him is not proof that Drizzt actually, honestly, believed it was going to. The last time he tried that same ploy, with High Captain Kurth of Luskan, it actually backfired on him. So IMO it's entirely possible that he was just grasping at straws, here, because he didn't know what else to do, except wing it. Dahlia's teaching him to do just that. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 07:13:42
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Reading the exact passages, I can see where you're coming from...I just found the simple fact he kept questioning it and kept on mentioning his name almost to see if anyone would correct him (and never actually having been told he was dead...even just saying he hadn't been seen in Luskan wasn't much proof, as by then the dark elves had basically left Luskan).
Also having read Charon's Claw I'm coming at it from that angle, and I didn't really describe in full detail the ruse he runs on the Menzo drow, a party which included the current protege/2nd of the weapons master of House Baenare (and who is all but expected to elevate himself to weapons master in short time). It's likely such a person would know Jarlaxle's current fate. Drizzt actually had an explainable story for himself, but was relying exclusively on Jarlaxle's reputation/past in explaining Entreri and Dhalia's presences. Oddly enough, Entreri's past history while he was in Menzo as a "guest" of Jarlaxle comes heavily into play as well...which turned out interesting. Once his story passes with the Menzo drow, he kind of comments and looks at Dhalia about the fact that none of Menzo drow seemed to think Jarlaxle was dead/wouldn't have use for current agents of his own (Drizzt refers to Dhalia as Jarlaxle's consort).
While he didn't spend the previous book shouting Dhalia down every time she tried to make him feel silly for believing Jarlaxle could have escaped, I still get the impression even from those passages that Drizzt lets it go simply because he gets tired of arguing with Dhalia over every little thing about being "positive" and having hope in the current world they live in. I definitely never got the impression he had a moment where he "put Jarlaxle to rest" in his mind and in his emotions. |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 08:06:41
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| Just curious...How powerful is that ring of fire protection Jarlaxle had. And of course Drizzt would probably think Jarlaxle is alive. I'm probably wrong but I could 've sworn Drizzt fully believed Jar was prepared for anything. Perhaps the most prepared being in all of Faerun. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 10:04:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Just curious...How powerful is that ring of fire protection Jarlaxle had. And of course Drizzt would probably think Jarlaxle is alive. I'm probably wrong but I could 've sworn Drizzt fully believed Jar was prepared for anything. Perhaps the most prepared being in all of Faerun.
Pretty sure it's been noted before by Salvatore that Jarlaxle had a foolproof escape he could activate in an instant as well. It would throw him randomly across the planes...but for Jarlaxle that would likely be a minor inconvenience. |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 17:29:38
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Oh dear, I should really do this on a real computer rather than my ipad, because it's going to take all day. But I'm still at work, bored, and too lazy to stop by my house and pack up my laptop. Nevertheless, I still was wondering when you were going to chime in on this book. And I had a feeling my wall of text may very well summon the beast that is BEAST. Here goes.
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Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
I liked the first two parts of this trilogy, but this last installment was an enormous let-down.
NEWS FLASH: It's no longer a trilogy. WOTC and RAS have repackaged it as a four-part saga, instead: "The Neverwinter Saga". Book IV will be called The Last Threshold. (Methinks this is reminiscent of how some folks consider The Orc King to practically be a Book IV of "The Hunter's Blades", rather than a Book I of "Transitions". Well, this time around, it's official.)
[EDIT: Ah, I see you caught this, Yoss.]
Yeah, I went and got my thoughts out before reading too many other people's opinions, and once I was done here I hopped over to the RAS boards and read through those posts, and saw that I just wasn't completely up to date. Oops. I know now, and as I think I mentioned when I edited to add that, I am still impatiently going to be awaiting that novel despite this one not being one of my favorites.
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Says you, bub. But he's Bob's (well, you know, WOTC's, character), so it's up to them whether there's any more room for growth and development, there. It sounds awfully self-centered and presumptuous of you to declare that there's nothing left for him to do.
Of course says me. This is simply my opinion. My opinion, not one shared by the author obviously, nor is it one shared by anyone ive see discussing this book anywhere online yet. while under most circumstances there's no such thing as a wrong opinion, you can argue here that RAS' opinion matters more than anyone elses's since its his character. I do however, as a free-thinking individual reserve the right to disagree. Which is what I'm doing here.
My reasons are actually quite selfish (I'll get to them in a moment). As you clearly missed in your defensive rush, I said somewhere in there that I really love this character.
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A lot of people decry the Drizzt books for a (supposed) lack of character development. But here, you're decrying it for--what?--too much character development? You're basically saying that he's changed too much, so kill him off. You sound like what you really wanted was a static Artemis Entreri, who never really changed all that much. You don't sound like you've liked his recent changes, so you want him dead to keep him from changing any more. I find it funny that people complain about Drizzt stories from such totally opposite ends of the spectrum.
Not quite. What I like so much about Artemis Entreri is how he's changed. I actually want him dead because I want to keep him isolated to that chapter (if we look at his life as that of an elf, as you suggested). That's the selfishness. Wrapped up, finished, not necessarily static.
It's not so much I doubt RAS' ability to keep him interesting--he hasn't done wrong with him in my eyes yet, so why should I fear I'm not going to like the new, free Entreri?--I don't want to see him morph into an entirely different character, or become stagnant. Because, as a fan and not the author himself obviously, I can't foresee exactly what's in store for him, I hate the idea that I'll lose the fictional character who went through some very relatable accelerated emotional growth that just happened to really hit home in a pretty important way for me at the time I read the sellswords stuff. After 15 years of being convinced I don't need friends, other people at all really, and clinging quite well to a cynical world view of mistrust and loner-ism of my own, a lot of that in the past couple years got horrendously turned on its head for me personally. One should probably never admit to finding Entreri as a character they identify with, and while i don't literally in the striving to be the best assassin sense of course, there are some personal things im not wholly comfortable laying out in their entirety for a bunch of strangers on the internet here that put this character and the changes he goes through across his appearances in the novels very close to my heart. Now, he can either stay the same or move forward since he's not dead, which will mean one of two things for me. Either he continues to evolve into something I'll in all likelihood still enjoy reading about, yet from the distance (probably a more sane-sounding distance) that just relegates him to becoming one of the number of fictional characters I like, rather than an all-time favorite. Or if he stays stagnant, which I doubt will be the case as I am not one of those people who thinks RAS' characters lack development, he might as well be dead because that just turns into more of the same, and that is where authors run the risk of writing characters that become parodies of themselves. They wear out their welcome (which is something that happens in different stages for different fans--some fell away with the sellswords angst, the later two anyway since there was the gap between the servant of the shard and the others ones, others perhaps not at all. but I can't help but feel this could be that stage for me). In either case, I feel I stand something to lose here, so yes, I do wish he had died. again, purely for selfish reasons. Sure, I'd miss him. But I know from past fictional interests that have struck similar chords with me, I wind up missing characters more after they stick around past what I think should have been their expiration date. And yet again, this is still just my opinion. What i wanted. Nowhere am I saying everyone has to agree with me.
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Tracy Hickam was at a small Houston convention with Bob this past weekend, and Tracy touched on this exact same phenomenon. He said that when he was tapped to write his latest book, Wayne of Gotham, he set out to do the single most comprehensive, multi-edition-faithful version of Batman ever. He did lots of research across all the comics, all the cartoons, all the movies, all the toy packaging, etc., to ensure that he got it all in there. But when the reviews started coming in, they still complained. Some griped that he still didn't know what he was talking about, and should just stick with medieval fantasy. Others whined that he stuck too closely to the established lore, and that they had already heard all of that stuff before anyway. So there's just no pleasing some folks!
As they say in the army, the troops aren't happy unless they're bitching.
There's no pleasing everyone, which is what gives rise to discussion in the first place.
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quote:
he was cool with dying, let him die.
Ahem, back up there a sec. What Entreri actually thought to himself before our reading eyes was that he had always told himself that he didn't care if he died, and that he thought that he preferred to die rather than continue as a slave to Herzgo Alegni; but he didn't know if he even could really die, because of the Shadovar's ability to keep bringing him back with the sword.
More importantly, Entreri second-guessed himself and wondered if the truth was that he really didn't want to die, at all, regardless of Alegni and the Shadovar and Charon's Claw (Neverwinter, P1:C5). He likened this to "cowardice".
I don't know, in this book i get the impression that he really did I interpret his numerous declarations of "it's past time," to be taken at face value, and that he truly did reach the acceptance phase. What I get from that is not so much that he does or doesn't want to die, suicide is a coward's way out. He's not going to kill himself to be free, but in this book he's accepted that if he truly wants to be free, he has to destroy the sword. He thinks this will kill him, and accepts that he's been alive far longer than any human should be, and if that's what it takes, then so be it. This we should probably drop til after you've read this book. Then you can tell me why my interpretation here is wrong.
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Methinks Bob is experimenting with his writing. He reads other people's use of language online or in other books, and then he tries it on for size, himself. He's having fun with it. Yeah, we might notice it and wince. But it's trendy and faddish and up-to-date, so he's going for it. (Frankly, I throw this in the same boat as starting up a facebook account to connect with fans, too, but that's just me. Whatevah!)
I'm sure you're right here, and it's really just a minor pet peeve as certain words and expressions are for certain people. I care very little in the overall discussion about this fact. Enough to mention, and it would probably be enough disuade me from stuff from other authors who I haven't invested so much time and enjoyed so many of their prior novels. Like certain words and phrases (sublimate in the dark elf trilogy, aegis fang slammed home in ice wind dale, etc), they fall in and out of favor with RAS over the span of several books, and it's just one idiosyncrasy that makes his style his own. I'm not a fan, and it detracted from these combat scenes, it's not the end of the world.
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Is it that the heroes are overpowered, or that the villains are underpowered? Bob has stated that he has a personal soft spot for truly heroic heroes, and wants to be careful not to blur the line between hero and antihero too much. His most cited example is how when the lead lawyer from the TV show The Practice, Bobby O'Donnell, actively helped a defendant client to circumvent the law, which lead to cops getting killed, at that point O'Donnell actually had blood on his hands, and was no longer just a piece of the machine, but had actually been corrupted, so Bob (Salvatore) could no longer look favorably on the show anymore. Methinks that Bob has got a deeply ingrained fear of showing too much respect for the villains in his stories, because he just doesn't want to be seen as glorifying evil. It's not about public perception, as his own personal perception of himself.
I can respect that. And it does have its place, because fiction, whether it's movies, tv, books, etc can't all be about the gray areas. Often I personally find a lot of those more entertaining, but I can also enjoy wholly good and entirely evil in their black and white extremes. Both general types of set-ups for stories have a lot of wiggle room. My issue here is more with the portrayal within a shared world. I have no qualms with individual original characters from any particular author, because as authors the nature of writing novels affords them to flesh out their own characters in whatever way they choose. And that's a wonderful thing, because it combines recognizable elements of a shared fantasy world with uniqueness of individual authors. What I take issue with is the sheer underpower of overall armies, races, or otherwise defined groups that vaguely resemble something similar across several other appearances yet suddenly they become something entirely different in one person's utility of them.
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I have toyed with the idea of celebrating antiheroes in books and movies and TV shows from time to time, and I can enjoy both anti and full-on goody-goody heroes. But methinks there must be a reason I keep coming back to the Drizzt stories, moreso than to any others: I love truly goodly heroes, too, and inwardly fear getting too cozy or chummy or celebratory of the dark side, as well.
Which in the end, just comes down to personal preference. Hell, for as much as I love Entreri, I'd pick Bruenor as a second favorite RAS character.
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Remember that Bob has repeatedly told fans that he doesn't really go into his books thinking in terms of trilogies or quartets or whatever. It's the publisher who does that. They have to kinda-sorta negotiate with him to impose their structure on him. But he just thinks in terms of one, grand, ongoing story, with occasional side-detours into secondary characters. Recall that from the very beginning, Bob defeated the main antagonist (the Crystal Shard), while still leaving it open for that antagonist to propel other stories (Streams of Silver, Passage to Dawn, The Silent Blade, Servant of the Shard, The Ghost King); whacked one minor antagonist (Kessell) while preserving another (Dendybar); inserted a hook that could span across many different books (the ramifications of Regis having stolen the ruby pendant; see The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, The Halfling's Gem, The Legacy); and vaguely hinted at an intriguing past to the main protagonist (Drizzt's dark history as a dark elf; "The Icewind Dale Trilogy", "The Dark Elf Trilogy", "Legacy of the Drow", "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", Gauntlgrym, and apparently now, Charon's Claw). Just this weekend, once again Bob hinted at the possibility of being able to go back in the timeline and revisit the familiar characters at earlier times in their lives, which would be a nice change from the recent drive to keep driving the central story forward. So be careful not to read too much into WOTC's packaging of the books as this mini-series or that one--it's all one interconnected, entwined story, as far as its creator is concerned.
He has a quasi-stream of consciousness thing going, or has said that he doesn't outline and plan out exactly how anything is going to end til he gets there, right? Yeah, I'm a lot more ok with the reoccurrences of characters, like Errtu coming back, than some other people online seem to be. And I'd absolutely love for the gaps that wotc threw into the time jump abyss to be filled in. This was really a one-time error for me, given that I read all the previous stuff in a single, continuous spree, having the luxury of just moving on to the next without having to succumb to anticipation of the next release date months/years in the future. It's the only time marketing strategies really entered my head, and probably the only time I'll really find myself considering it again.
Ok, I think that's long enough. Batter is about to die, and it took me about four hours (it's been kinda busy at work). |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 21:08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
Oh dear, I should really do this on a real computer rather than my ipad, because it's going to take all day. But I'm still at work, bored, and too lazy to stop by my house and pack up my laptop. Nevertheless, I still was wondering when you were going to chime in on this book. And I had a feeling my wall of text may very well summon the beast that is BEAST.
(And if I get vanquished, I don't remain banished for a 100 years, either!)
BWAHAHA! I had a bad day at work, and coming home to read that, I suddenly feel a whole lot better! Thanks, man.
I'll respond to the rest sometime later. I wanna go whack some monsters somewhere, right now. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 21:23:47
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| Mmmmm, whacking monsters. I'm gonna go slay some zombies myself. |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2012 : 03:42:07
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| Merrith: Of course we all know quite a few plans or contingencies that Jarlaxle has and had used previously :-). And we actually know he is alive. But I was trying to make it clear why Drizzt may believe he is alive. I'm not sure how many contingencies Drizzt knows of(including the ring). I believe Drizzt has even mentioned how prepared he believes Jarlaxle is for any situation. :-) |
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Charon's Claw(Spoilers ahead)
