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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 23:33:03
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oh yeah... I figured a way to kick Zehir out of the realms for 5e.
Bring back the world serpent and its dinner time, Zehir dies and becomes his dinner |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 23:57:58
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Why not just say Zehir is an aspect of the World Serpent? A long-lost one (so now it can be 'whole' again in the Realms).
When the Realms got shattered, so too did the serpent (makes sense, no?) Ao kept the serpent in a 'coma' in order to preserve his new creation (the 'fix' he forced upon the world when he split it).
And if the Serpent becomes whole again, the world can be healed....
And we can change the maps any way we want in 5e.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 01:54:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
That and I feel the more the rules are presented in new Realms sourcebooks, the closer the setting is tied to the new edition and so the better its chances of surviving into the future.
This is a good point, but I don't think mechanics need to be presented in sourcebooks in the FR. It's a SETTING, not a game--you can come up with all your own mechanics based on what edition of the game you're playing, whether it's 5e or anything before.
That said, this is probably too extreme a view, and mechanics will provide an important structure to keep the game centered. I would advocate keeping it the way the 2e books presented mechanics: NPCs get a one sentence mechanical writeup, and the rest is all lore. That way, you can play with any version of the game.
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@Erik: How do you feel about returning the concept of the unreliable narrator to the Realms for D&D Next?
I don't think it ever left, myself, but yes, I would be keen on the concept being emphasized in the setting going forward. It fits with what the Realms has always been: mysterious and reliant upon the DM. I think 3e was when we started seeing the more transparent sort of Realmslore and a degree of canonical exactness, and a return to the "mists of the Realms" would be a relief.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Ive a strange question...
but what if someone doesnt have a 3e of 4e frcs then.....
thats only for I dont feel we need to re-do campaign setting books and do local settings.
The concept is that you don't NEED any CS book to run the Realms, at least in a localized fashion.
The main purpose behind a "campaign setting" book, as I see it, is to create a product that your entire fanbase theoretically should buy. Campaign settings sell far better than specific regional sourcebooks, simply because everyone playing in the Realms has the campaign setting in common, but not everyone is using the same regional book.
quote:
would a local book say for Cormyr be 150+ pages detailing the purple dragons, the war wizards, notable npcs, all of the major cities, current affairs, rumors, current enimies, adventure hooks and a side section of comryran bawdy sea shanties?
I hope so!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 02:09:15
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then they will start saying oh there is too much lore again....
through in a players book with each FR race, every deity, every FR ethnicticty and good back grounds and with a full FR map and I'll be good if they do it that way, but they'd have to print it first...
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 05:10:08
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You know what I call 150 pages? A booklet.
90 pages is a pamphlet. 
Campaign setting guides should be a bare minimum of 500 pgs. A 30-volume alphabetized encyclopedic set is ideal, but that just wishful thinking.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 08:25:24
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I imagine they have a certain page count for the "sweet spot" for campaign guides, naturally more would be better. 3E, 320 pages, 4E was 288, hoping 5E is about 400 pages. But, what Wizards should do, is take EVERYTHING that cannot be added to the campaign guide or that is cut, and stick that into a PDF format and sell it as a mini-supplement or some such. E-books have an insane profit margin to them and they could really open the floodgates on extra lore. Hell, they could sell a Collector's Edition of the Realms Campaign Guide that has a code in it included for a bit of extra money. Or better yet, put a code in that book, that requires a DDI subscription for a downloadable PDF. If they price the ebook at 15.00 bucks they get their money, factor in most recurring online subscriptions average 3 to 6 months or so per customer and you've more than made your money back.
Granted, this all depends if excess lore to the tune of 100 pages or whatnot could be made for such a thing. Doing something like this would require a lot more than a 10 page article to make people happy I think. Ed probably has enough Realmslore created himself to where they could crank out 100 page ebooks like this to go along with every product for the next decade. ;)
I know some people aren't keen on the online format, but I'll take new Realmslore in any format. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 14:59:11
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I thought the 3e Silver Marches product was a pretty damn good example of a region-specific campaign guide, and it was 159 page. I would not want to see them fall below that. In fact, upped slightly to 175 pages would give it just enough room to include a good start area; in that tome more detail could have been spent to get Deadsnows up to stuff (which almost qualifies for a regional start-area in that book).
I'd avoid the major cities for start areas/base-of-operations. In fact, I'd avoid anyplace already overly detailed. Each mini-setting guide should detail someplace new, making it useful for everyone.
Except the Swordcoast one - let Eric Boyd give Daggerdale some new love; tons of potential there.
You know what, now that I think about it, 159 pages is probably a good 'sweet spot', if each book is going to have a lot more focus. I am just worried that the 'support for all eras' paradigm will chew up too much page count. Thats why I think keeping the history just an outline (like how its always been down in regionals) in the physical book would be great, and then WE's for each era for 'current clack' and important NPCs.
Of course, if all the books are going to be digital now, I am not sure if Web Enhancements are even necessary anymore. Page counts shouldn't even be an issue at that point (and the prices of the books should be around half - a double win for fans). Still, it would be nice to have the era-specific info compartmentalized for ease of use. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jul 2012 15:01:32 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 19:37:29
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WotC should follow Paizo's model.
If it works use it.
Then again on second thought, WotC would mess it up.
Start with a Gazetter, then print some region/planar/deity books, then print the Campaign Guide/Setting. Then print some more books.
I really think WotC should have printed regional books after the release of the 4E Campaign Guide. at least maybe 2 a year, if not more. Instead we got a bunch of core rules books.
Oh yeah, let Ed and friends write them. The James Gang, Eric & Erik, Krash, Kemp, Elaine, Steven, Richard Baker, and some others. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 01 Jul 2012 19:42:29 |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 19:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
then they will start saying oh there is too much lore again....
I don't know who came up with that phrase, but I think it's a fallacy. Too much lore? Too many choices? Too many options for a DM to handle? I don't buy it. There's already so much FR lore in the gray box I haven't used yet, but it's not wasted lore. I just haven't got to it yet! Heh.
Too much lore is a myth. No such damn thing. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 20:57:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
then they will start saying oh there is too much lore again....
I don't know who came up with that phrase, but I think it's a fallacy. Too much lore? Too many choices? Too many options for a DM to handle? I don't buy it. There's already so much FR lore in the gray box I haven't used yet, but it's not wasted lore. I just haven't got to it yet! Heh.
Too much lore is a myth. No such damn thing.
hehe.... speaking to the choir....
but then again I also dont know who came up with teh phrase just use the older material.... I dont own alot of the odler material... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 21:08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
then they will start saying oh there is too much lore again....
I don't know who came up with that phrase, but I think it's a fallacy. Too much lore? Too many choices? Too many options for a DM to handle? I don't buy it. There's already so much FR lore in the gray box I haven't used yet, but it's not wasted lore. I just haven't got to it yet! Heh.
Too much lore is a myth. No such damn thing.
hehe.... speaking to the choir....
To borrow my own words, from another thread:
I don't think that any region could be splatted to death... Hell, Waterdeep has had more coverage than any other point in the Realms, and there is still plenty to explore there. We do not, even after 20 years of gaming material, even know who all 20 of the Lords are!
For me, Waterdeep is the most living, breathing place in the Realms, precisely because of all the coverage (particularly, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep). And yet I've still had plenty of room to work in my own elements: five of the Hidden Lords (four of which were formally written up for the Candlekeep Compendium), plenty of my own NPCs, at least one inn, some unique businesses, a broadsheet inspired by "News of the World" and its pseudo-journalistic ilk, the Lords of Waterdeep having counter-infiltrated the Unseen, and more.
Why have I done so much there? Because I love the City of Splendors.
But my point is that even with all of the information we have about Waterdeep -- perhaps more information than any other fictitious locale ever created -- I've still found plenty of room to maneuver and many ways to make the city my own, all within the boundaries of existing material. I have not been limited in any way by the volume of information we have; some of it, like the Unseen infiltrating the Lords of Waterdeep, has given me more possibilities than I would have otherwise had.
Fencing off a section of ground and putting playground equipment on it does not mean children are no longer free to use their imaginations -- it instead gives them more to work with. I recall pretending that a jungle gym was a house, or an impregnable fortress, or the Millenium Falcon. I couldn't have done that without the jungle gym being there, and I wouldn't have had nearly as much fun in an open field.
Adding detail to a game setting is the same thing. Some possibilities may be taken away, but a lot more will be created. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 17:34:05
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Awhile back, I had considered a granddaghter of Volo foir 4th edition named "Volaara". This way, we could keep the tradition of the Volo's guides moving forward.
So just a little while ago, I was re-reading Dragon #250 (some research on Sea races for the Five Shires project), and I came across a basta... errr... LOVE child... of Volo's!
Its in the Wyrms of the North column in that issue - his name is Emmeros Silmerhelve. I found Volaara's Daddy! (who da' baby-daddy?) 
So her full name is Volaara Silmerhelve, which is kinda cool, since we don't want too much derivation. The connection to the dragon is just an added bonus.
And reading that article again, after all these years, I realized that Ed can also be given credit for inventing the 'Reality Show". Unfortunately, I don't think he really wants to take credit for that one.
EDIT: I just realized this should have actually gone in the 'creating realmslore' thread - sorry Eric.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jul 2012 17:35:50 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 00:30:49
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Well met, all,
The month of July has been nuts for me, but I'm back, and I see folks have been busy. How's it, everybody?
My question today grows out of the concept of multiple time periods being focused on in Realms products. I've spoken before at length about timeline neutral regional sourcebooks, where the vast majority of the content is applicable to any region, and you get a nice robust timeline if you want to borrow some events from the Grand History of the Realms to tie into your game. Some eras might have more coverage than others, depending on the locale. Picture the 3.5 City of Splendors book or the 4e Neverwinter Book, except that the parts of those books reserved for game material are instead used to discuss more timeline lore and stuff.
The question I want to ask today is, what regions should be focused upon? And what eras should get particular coverage?
Your mission, should you choose to accept it: Name a region you'd like to run/play a campaign in, pick a focal point (like one city or town), and pick three eras for it to focus on. Then explain why you picked what you did.
For example, a hypothetical Dragon Coast regional book (which is #1 on my list to read and--possibly--to write) would include source material about the various cities with a focus on Westgate as the primary city of the campaign (structures of government, laws, culture, notable locales that endure through the centuries), with a few particular eras that get enough coverage to run a full campaign in that era if you want and have plenty of canon lore to draw upon. Since it's the Dragon Coast, our three eras of choice might be the 1350s (think old school Night Masks), the early 1380s (fall of the Night Masks), and 1480s (struggles between the Fire Knives and the Nine Golden Swords, and some other current events).
Where would you like to adventure today?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 24 Jul 2012 00:32:52 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 00:34:01
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And ahem, no, I'm not officially soliciting ideas for future products. I mean, you never know when inspiration strikes, of course. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 02:23:13
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Myth Drannor
current era
before the fall of myth drannor
during its ruin era.
Why Mythdrannor, its an interesting city that has its share of conspircies,villians, heroes, lore and legends. Its the birthplace of the Demron's baneblades, its the ultimatley the birthplace of the fey-ri and their death. As adungeon it was as unique as Waterdeep's undermountain with its portals. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 03:50:22
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Daggerford region.
Someone really needs to do an intensive full-coverage type of product that folks can run an entire campaign around, based on all previous material.
You know... with cool maps and stuff. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 06:27:16
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Shanatar, either current or past. Though referenced in several sources, the realms of the Shield Dwarves in the south of Faerun have never gotten the attention they deserve.
@ MT, isn't Eric more or less doing this on CK? |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 15:18:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The question I want to ask today is, what regions should be focused upon? And what eras should get particular coverage?
Your mission, should you choose to accept it: Name a region you'd like to run/play a campaign in, pick a focal point (like one city or town), and pick three eras for it to focus on. Then explain why you picked what you did.
I am not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, but:
Region: Thesk
City: Telflamm
Eras:
1) Founding of the Golden Way
2) Tuigan Invasion
3) 1386 (Possible Spoliers: aftermath of Shar subsuming Mask and the Spellplague)
Why? I like Shou, Mask, and melting pot cities like Telflamm. It is also a part of the Unapproachable East that has not gotten as much coverage in the novels (that I know of), unlike Aglarond, Rashemen, and Thay. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 24 Jul 2012 15:24:25 |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 19:47:30
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what they need is to take a few pages from dc comics book
"http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_(DC_Comics)"
It would give writers more power over their setting and the public what they want with out annoying everyone.
Ed should be in charge of Toril 1 complete control ;) and assist on the other m'verses
The multiverse idea is the best model IMO
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Purple you say?!
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Edited by - Portella on 24 Jul 2012 19:53:28 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 20:13:01
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You have to bring back mystra and the weave in full, the setting just does not work without them.
I don't like the idea of having the chosen of other gods being really powerful, the original idea of mystra having her chosen was to prevent her becoming all powerful, a cosmic 'check' on her power if you will. To have other gods weaken themselves in such a manner makes no sense to me.
I would also get rid of the gods need for worship to power their divinity. If it were truly that way then there would be hardly any evil gods of merit, the vast majority of beings would worship a good god and the realms would be a virtual utopia. |
Edited by - Arcanus on 24 Jul 2012 20:16:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2012 : 21:32:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
@ MT, isn't Eric more or less doing this on CK?
WHY.... so he is.
Fancy that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 05:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
You have to bring back mystra and the weave in full, the setting just does not work without them.
Gods come and go, and there are many gods currently in the process of being brought back. It's kind of funny, really, seeing people get all up in arms about a temporary absence of a favorite god in the "canon" Realms (in your own Realms, that god could be just fine). Gods in the Realms respawn almost as much as superheroes do.
The Weave I'm not totally convinced on. I like the concept, but it's too nebulous and beyond-mortal-understanding to have a full grasp on. I do think there should be remnants of the Weave, and these might be being put back together as the setting progresses--this is the case in my campaign, and I can make a good argument for that being the case in the canon Realms, too. Or the Weave could come back entirely, with a new (or newly reincarnated/revived/rediscovered) steward. Either way, I'd be fine with it.
quote:
I don't like the idea of having the chosen of other gods being really powerful, the original idea of mystra having her chosen was to prevent her becoming all powerful, a cosmic 'check' on her power if you will. To have other gods weaken themselves in such a manner makes no sense to me.
I think this is overstated a bit in the fandom. Erevis Cale is the "chosen" of Mask, but he's basically just a guy with some bonus powers. Fzoul is the "chosen" of Bane, but he's really just the high priest of Bane and walking around with an artifact. To me, "chosen"--unless you're talking about the "Chosen of Mystra," who indeed have that specific purpose--is really just another word for high priest. Though it is interesting to consider whether the "chosen" of other gods are themselves a check on the power of those gods, or a repository for some of their divine essence/power.
Why would other gods "weaken" themselves in this way? Simply because it gives them a reset button. That's exactly what Bane did, with Iyatchu Xvim (basically his first "chosen" servant)--he used Xvim to reincarnate himself. Mystra has done it several times. It stretches the suspension of disbelief to think the other gods haven't caught on to it.
Mask also did it in a slightly different way, dispersing some of his power into his "First and Second," being Cale and Riven respectively. We'll see what becomes of that.
And of course, Helm did it as well, but he put his power in an artifact, rather than in a person--much like how Myrkul kept himself "alive" by putting some of his power in the Crown of Thorns.
quote:
I would also get rid of the gods need for worship to power their divinity. If it were truly that way then there would be hardly any evil gods of merit, the vast majority of beings would worship a good god and the realms would be a virtual utopia.
"Worship" is sort of an ambiguous term here. Really, what drives the gods to be powerful is how much emotion/psychic energy they get from people, whether it's love, respect, fear, or hatred. How else does one explain extremely powerful evil gods, whose churches hate and fear them more than adore them?
I'm not saying anything controversial there. It's pretty well established what we mean when we say the gods power is tied to "worship."
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 05:51:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
I am not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, but:
Indeed, Hawkins, that's exactly what I want.
I wonder if 1386 is a little early for all the repercussions to sink in of the events you mention, unless you actively want to see what the city is like during the Wailing Years. Possibly send it on a little later, even into the actual official 4e timeframe?
Then again, I as well would love to see some of that gap filled, and this is an excellent opportunity to do so.
Keep the good ideas rolling, friends and adventurers!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 06:00:45
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With respect to the deities: while I like that the deities are making an effort to keep from being destroyed, I'm tired of deities recycling themselves in short periods of time and interfering too directly in the mortal world. For me, at least, enough is enough already.
I'd rather see mortals battling mortals then hear about divine proxies (read: fantasy superheroes) duking it out with mortals or others of their kind.
That said, I do like the concept of high priests and particularly devoted servants touched with a minute portion of divine power, but I think the word 'Chosen' needs to be got rid of; it's far too loaded a term.
EDIT: On topic: prior to the release of the 5E Realms, please get done (as quickly as possible and without making it a focus for 5E) with the pantheon drama and then stop fiddling with the pantheon. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 25 Jul 2012 06:04:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 07:52:39
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So un-do the ToT, right? Not the whole thing (although that would be nice), but rather the aftermath.
Because one of the major outcomes from that was Ao enforcing the rules of more deity-mortal interaction. Before the ToT, gods could choose how much they wanted to be bothered with their worshipers; now there is way too much hand-holding.
"Gods help those who help themselves" - I agree on this point. I just finished the RotAW, and the part where Shar's hand comes up out of the water was a bit much, but then a giant eye even winks at Malik, putting it way over-the-top. Thats not even in-character for Shar!
I don't mind deities. I don't mind Chosen. Heck, I don't even mind Harpers (much), but keep them in the background, for Pete's sake. The power-escalation needs to be taken down a notch (or ten). No wonder PCs felt like 'small potatoes' (which is entirely the fault of certain novel series, and not the setting itself).
Its supposed to be everyone's playground, not just the writers. Its counter-productive to make your customers feel inferior.
Take Game of Thrones as a good example of how a setting is supposed to be; its about PEOPLE - real people, with real problems. Not fantasy-versions of superheroes. If I wanted "Wahhhh... In have infinite power and it makes me sad!", I'd read WoT, or SoT. Its hard to identify with characters who can level cities by shooting lightening bolts out of their arse.
But yeah... lets start with gods... they've been 'cheapened' way too much. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 15:37:58
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I feel the gods of the FR have grown a little too close to the mortal workings of the world. When every campaign starts out with the assumption (not just vague possibility) that you will end up fighting avatars or even gods themselves, it makes the gods a little too "mortal," if you know what I mean.
What I'd prefer, going forward, is to see the gods recede away from the world a little bit. They should still be there, absolutely, but they shouldn't meddle as much in mortal affairs (at least not directly)--they have their own business to worry about. You as a DM can certainly bring them out in your game, but that should no longer be the EXPECTED course.
I think gods should play less of a role in novels, or at least be used there *as gods,* rather than *really powerful immortal creatures with mortal-esque motivations and actions.* This is not to deprecrate any novel that's out or is currently in the works (for instance, I suspect GODBORN will have something to do with the gods directly, and I'm stoked about that book), only that going forward, we should put the focus on mortal heroes--possibly mortals with divine favor/spark/etc but definitely mortals--rather than gods.
As for gods being alive/dead/???, I'd like to see this veiled in mystery. The sourcebooks should not be in the business of firmly outlining which gods are alive and which ones are dead--and we certainly shouldn't have the people in the Realms running around with sage-like knowledge of which gods are alive and which aren't. My own books have a discussion of Helm and Mystra both being "dead" gods, but no one's quite sure that's the case.
What I'd prefer is that the books suggest the gods that are particularly significant right now, and leave it up to your imagination which other gods might be active and doing things. Part of the original Forgotten Realms setting was that there were thousands of gods--greater gods, lesser gods, local deities, virtually unknown beings that adventurers would probably never encounter--hidden behind a veil of "unknowable to mortal minds." I want a return to that.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 16:20:49
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| I agree with deities becoming less prominent (even tho I still absolutely want back the ones I mentioned before in this thread). I like the Faerunian Pantheon for the fact that it is active, and people can actually see and feel that it is there (and for its variety, but that's another matter), but IMO godly soap operas are definitely mind numbing, and not too far from ridiculousness (also they lend themselves to ugly interpretations of the character/personality of such beings, or to them behaving stupidly, both of which are big let downs in any setting). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Jul 2012 16:25:24 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 23:28:43
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| IMO deities need to be less present in the novel side of things. References to divine schemes and goals in source books is just fine. I think it is a fairly reasonable expectation that a published setting will provide a list of active deities for divine characters to follow. IMO the problem is not that the Realm's deities are active. The problem is the overuse of deities in the novels. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2012 : 03:31:32
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My chosen area would be The Moonsea...I just can't pull away from the area.
I think the city I would like to focus on would be Phlan, simply because it has so many different incarnations.
The time periods, well, I don't want to place dates honestly. One would probably be some small time after its FIRST founding. The frontier feel, loads of humanoid foes, dragons and etc. The second would be during Phlan's height of power before its dramatic fall prior to the "Ruins of Adventure" module. The third would be actually during the period of the Ruins of Adventure because I just love the hell out of that time.
In Re. Gods...I think they should be pulled back nearly completely...almost unseen except for the rare quasi-deity or even more rare demi-god. When I think of "Gods" that characters might fight against, I think of the world of Conan where the gods are in fact simply monsters worshiped by others.
In the Forgotten Realms, demons and devils have had their place taken by meddling gods...perhaps Ao can decree that the Gods must "withdraw" and leave the world to mortals...and only divine agents may operate in the world. Would make me happy. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2012 : 03:47:53
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Oh, I don't know how much of the blame should be laid on the novels. Look at the 3.5 Faiths and Pantheons book, which was extremely heavy on giving ACTUAL STATBLOCKS to deities. All respect to the authors (because that's a great book and one of my favorites), but I think the implication there (that deities should be active combatants in your campaign) misses the mark.
This is not to say the novels aren't partly to blame. To an extent, that's the problem of having the Avatar series be one of the core stories that defines the Realms--it was heavy on the gods by design, so that makes one think that the Realms itself should be heavy on the gods, all the time. It democratized the deities, making them more touchable and "human," for lack of a better descriptor.
I think we have too many events (both in the novels and in the game material) where the plot revolves around some deity actively doing something, and the heroes have to stop it. The deities aren't meant to be punching bags for PCs--they're about moral guidance, and to play games against one another in the background. Sure, they should cross paths with the PCs from time to time, in mysterious manifestations and half-remembered dreams, but if a game revolves around fighting a deity, then you're either doing something wrong, or you're playing a seriously EPIC game that shouldn't be considered a standard Realms game.
I'd much rather see plots where a MORTAL servant of the deity is doing something, perhaps against other mortal servants of other deities, and has to be stopped from his/her mad zealotry before it harms the Realms. Dragonlance (don't hit me!) had Lord Verminaard obeying the orders of Takhisis--it didn't have the dragon queen come down to fight the PCs personally. Gods can and should hatch schemes and manipulate, but they shouldn't really be wandering around interacting with the mortals on a regular basis.
(I will say that this was one of the intentions of 4e, actually--to eliminate too many gods/god-like characters running around the Realms.)
I agree with Tarlyn about providing a list of active deities and some notes about how to run their worshipers, but I don't think that list necessarily needs to include *ALL* the deities that are around. I think it should be a short list: my ideal distribution is 7 popular adventuring deities (Helm, Torm, Tymora, Mask, Mystra, Sharess, Mielikki), 8 more "commonly worshiped mostly by NPCs" deities (my picks would be: Chauntea, Corellon, Ilmater, Kelemvor, Amaunator/Lathander, Sune, Talos, Waukeen), and 5 "evil and probably worshiped by villains" deities (Bane, Cyric, Loviatar, Shar, Beshaba) for a total listing of 20 deities that represents the "most common deities in a standard Realms game." And then (here's the key) include a phrase something like:
"The Realms has literally thousands of deities in all manner of form and power level, from local gods worshiped in a single isolated hamlet to secret greater powers that work behind the scenes, unknown to mortal man or immortal elf. Do not feel restricted to this list here, but feel free to borrow deities from any period of the Realms for your game, or create your own."
Then we follow it up with a couple-page-long list of about 80 more FR deities, listed only by name, alignment, portfolio, domains, term for worshipers (Tormtar, Tyrran, Sharran, Ilmatari, etc), favored weapon, and maybe a "date of ascendency" (which represents when they are most active in the Grand History of the Realms). Each of them gets one line on the page. Every deity that's been around in the Realms. If you're an old guard player, you can pick up your favorite deity from the past (Moander? Bhaal? Myrkul? Leira? Jergal? Shevarash?), and if you're a newbie, you can peruse the list and pick out some that interest you. The idea is that it pushes you to do more research on your own.
We're operating in a new world now, where not all the lore is contained in the books. It's also online, or in the heads of old guard players. That sort of info sharing should be made available and encouraged.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
