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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2012 : 04:35:48
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Yep! That's right, I want to place The Five Shires of Mystara (written by our beloved Ed Greenwood) where now sits the Gulthmere Forest.
There are several settlements/cities there that will essentially no longer exist though, and so I'm wanting to talk to folks and see what they think.
What negative thoughts does anyone have about placing the Shires where the Gulthmere Forest is? Will I be destroying any major lore that I need to reconcile?
What positive thoughts does anyone have? What are some advantages of using a dedicated Halfling nation in the area?
For those that aren't familiar with the Five Shires, it is a very interesting read and is thick with EGG! (Ed Greenwood Goodness). I would recommend it for a read to anyone!
I am also looking for ANYONE interested in helping me make a MAP of this new thing too! Map-makers...are you there? 
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 13:29:09
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I once commented to Ed about using the Five Shires for Luiren... His response:
quote:
Sure. Superimpose the Luiren cities and government structure, shift places "just a little" to make room for them, and, yes, it works admirably for that. Almost as if someone designed it that way. ;}
Judging by eBay, The Five Shires is rare and difficult to find. I don't know if it was a short publishing run or something else, but when I was trying to lay hands on it, I was routinely seeing it go for $50. I lucked out and got a copy in really good condition for like $25.
Ed also told me there were some printing issues with that source, too, but the copy I got was one of the ones without those issues. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 May 2012 13:32:04 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 15:33:15
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I remember you mentioning this before Wooly...I may have read it on the Ask Ed scrolls...
However, I just want to bring the shires more north so that it can be central in the campaign I plan to run. Luiren just seems so very far away.
I was looking more at the Gulthmere Forest last night, and I think I've found a way to essentially have both in the area at once!
The Five Shires is heavy in woodlands, and so it wouldn't be impossible to blend the two together...only the history and such would need more "fixing" then. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 17:38:23
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The best advice I can offer you is invert it.
Then fudge what you have to.
I no longer even own those gazeteers, so more then that I can't add. Also extremely busy with my new home, and learning a new app (GIMP) is a struggle, after years of using PS, so I'm really not ready for anything involved at this time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2012 17:43:07 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 05:27:10
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Ok...so I tried a map. It isn't the greatest, but I really had to do little to it to make it my "Five Shires of the Forgotten Realms" to be honest.
I'll be working on the Timeline next...but first a few things about the map:
You can find my map here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10166328/FR%205%20Shires.jpg
The first thing you will notice is that, unlike the Five Shires of Mystara, I didn't include any roads and left out many of the villages. I honestly don't have the map making skills to make an original map, so I used one of the Vilhon Reach instead and went from there (and so really there wasn't enough space).
As for roads, I always thought that in the Forgotten Realms, the Halflings would have what amounted to good cart trails, and so that is one break I'm making with "Canon" Five Shires material. The orcs were supposed to be the ones that made the halflings build the roads long ago...so I thought such things would not have lasted for hundreds of years and so only cart trails would be left for halfling sized carts...not something that might be good for normal sized carts.
I also shifted towns around a bit, as I said; but some of them are much different in placement than in "Canon" material...but I did this to "make it all fit" for my world.
If anyone has any tips on the map, I'm all ears...but I think this will be sufficient for me in my game (and the best I'm likely to do at any rate!).
The first thing to remember about this campaign I'm planning is that it is ONLY 1e Material from the Old Grey Box, plus what I add in myself. It will keep me from having too many "Lore Conflicts" and such...well, and it is a 1e Game after the NEW AD&D books come out.
Second, I replaced two towns on the map. The Capital Shireton was once known as Amry. I didn't find anything much to conflict on this, so I think I'm good on Lore (though I haven't checked the Sea of Fallen Stars book yet...only Vilhon Reach, Pirates of the SoFS, and the base box...hope I didn't miss anything).
The other city is now Tothmeer (once known as Telpir). I'm going to go with a simple "Tothmeer is what the Hin call it...silly big'uns call it Telpir for some reason!" The ship that is noted as lost in the Old Grey Box will simply have been a Hin trading ship from Tothmeer/Telpir instead. The larger issue is that in the Pirates book, Telpir is said to belong to Turmish; but I think I have an end around on that one too. Telpir will have simply been what the people of Turmish called it when it was besieged in Turmish's expansionist phase, and the Hin (for a short period of time) simply paid a Tribute to Turmish. No ruler of Turmish has actually ever garrisoned Tothmeer...and now they get no Tribute either!
Moving on from the rambling now...
Any suggestions are welcome! 
EDIT (5a.m. EST, 5/28/12): I don't like my map...it doesn't feel right. I'll leave it up for now; but I'm getting rid of it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 30 May 2012 07:02:26 |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
194 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 08:35:02
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| I suggested on the 'Create Realms Lore' thread to have a realm settled by survivors of Luiren somewhere in the 4/5e Realms. Maybe you could make the five shires that realm? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 12:54:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
I suggested on the 'Create Realms Lore' thread to have a realm settled by survivors of Luiren somewhere in the 4/5e Realms. Maybe you could make the five shires that realm?
Feel free to do as you wish...however MY Five Shires is going to be set much earlier than the periods of 4e or later. I don't have a problem with 4e mind you; I am just going to be running a AD&D game set during the starting year of the "Old Grey Box" and so I need the Five Shires to be set then. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 08:45:03
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Here is a tentative history of The Five Shires of the Forgotten Realms.
I would appreciate any input into lore contradictions I may have missed (aside, obviously, from the fact that The Five Shires shouldn't BE in the Eastern Gulthmere Forest!). Anything that could be added would be welcome as well!
Here it is:
DEAD LINK REMOVED
EDIT (2a.m. EST 5/30/12): the above history is being changed. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 01 Jun 2012 05:09:13 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 10:40:10
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There might be something you can use in the duergar history in Dragon #267 in the write-up of Underspires (Dunspeirrin).
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 14:16:48
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Thanks Eric!
I remembered the duergar of Underspires having much to do in the area of the Vilhon; but this article will help me a great deal more now!
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
There might be something you can use in the duergar history in Dragon #267 in the write-up of Underspires (Dunspeirrin).
--Eric
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 13:49:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The only thing I can't fix is the name of at least two of the shires - East and South - they've been inverted. oh well, can win 'em all. Maybe halflings do that on purpose to confuse 'big folk'.
As for the Orcs, the Gulthmere has tribes of gnolls - those are in the Everis Cale novel. These aren't your garden-variety feral monsters - they are more like the ones in the UE book; they are even allowed in Starmantle (at least one merc. co.) They are still mean and ugly, but they are also pretty damn clever.
I figure the Five-Shire border ends where the forest ends, and there are probably Orcs in those mountains as well. I know Urml is a Bullywug town (at least I think it is... something weird like that... its been awhile). Between all the known creatures in the area, and the age and size (and mysteriousness) of the Orsraun Mountains, I would say you should be able to find anything there - where there are Mountains, there are orcs. Its part of their religion.
This is a carry over from a conversation on this thread:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=386873&TOPIC_ID=16589&FORUM_ID=19
We can just go with naming the old Eastshire to "Westshire" and the old Southsire to "Eastshire" now.
The gnolls being there is perfect...because there is much history involving gnolls in relation to the Five Shires.
The orcs work well too...lots of those in the history.
The village of Mar as a gnome village...I like that as well; the Hin have been trying to attract those who use The Art to help defend their land.
As for Athenos...it fits nicely as well...but perhaps instead we could replace Athenos with Telpir? That way it remains on the coast, as well as belonging to Turmish as Telpir should?
Amry has so few canon references, I'm not sure it is absolutely needed. There is a small town on the bay at the mouth of the river where Shireton sits...called Shireton Port...Amry could be that instead? Sort of like "Well, everyone calls our village Shireton Port...but the real name is Amry damn it!" |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 17:27:35
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Well, I figure both Telpir and Amry are canon locations, so I didn't want to loose them, but I do like your suggestion - I guess those islands can remain nameless (except for the ones that came from Five Shires).
Was placing names last night - its getting really crowded - I may have to bump-up the size, but we'll see (I'd hate loose the resolution). aside from all the 5S locales, there are at least 4 more canon towns that need to be added, and a few other things (like Redwater Dale).
I'd also suggest swapping the lore regarding Prespur and Orlin islands - it would make more sense that way. IIRC, Prespur is split, half being owned by Sembia, and the other half Cormyr, and both just use it for their naval bases to combat piracy. It would be a little odd if Orlin was 'behind' it in this regard (and Prespur is such a large island, its a total waste to just have two military ports on it). If you want to go that route, I could either swap the names, or you could just mentally swap the fluff.
I figure the Gnolls are really common in the western part of the Gulthmere. They probably once controlled most of the forest, but the Halflings (and others) have slowly been chasing them west. Wereskalot (fitting name, no?) and Aergruth are as far west as halflings dare venture now.
The Lightless Lake also had some frog-folk (from the novel) revolving around it - I assume the froggies (given the proximity of Urml) used to control that portion of the forest, but now that they've been inundated with gnolls they are also quite upset. Fortunately for everyone involved, they usually spend more time fighting each-other rather then allying.
Where is the lore regarding Ilimar from? Is that SS, or is it in SK? Either way, I am now rethinking that as well that its actually and even more ancient Batrachi ruin (they were known for their portals, and a city split between two or more places sounds right up their alley). After the fall of the Batrachi, the Sarrukh may have protected/enslaved that other creator race, and took-over many of their cities. That ties-in both groups of frog-folk to the region and those ruins.
I guess the Sarrukh made the Batrachi their 'toadies'. 
Anyhow, the Batrachi began loosing ground even before the Sundering... TO GNOLLS! That works perfectly. Gnolls are the oldest (canon) race outside the creators, except for maybe the dragons and giants. Their enmity goes back to the Age of Legend (the time before time, etc).
We could also use some more canon lore and tie things together - Nobanion. There is a reason why Nobanion has a heavy presence in the Gulthmere - he hates gnolls (thats not canon, but it does make sense - the whole cat vs dog thing). The halflings - being hard-pressed to hold-off the gnolls in the forest, asked for divine aid (they prayed a lot). But instead of a halfling deity, they got Nobanion (who may have been requested to intervene by the halfling pantheon... does that even have a name?)
And Nobanion works as both an archfey and a beastlord - take your pick (could be both - for all we know, they all could be both). Either way, I would think the Hin (who must have some sort of fey background) would respect fey powers, especially living in such a primordial forest.
Ergo, their move into the 'deeper wood' only began after Nobanion's arrival on the scene, no more then a few centuries I would think (I haven't checked the Nobanion material, so this might conflict).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 May 2012 17:34:02 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 20:02:47
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Look at the write-up of the Fellowship of the Purple Staff in Champions of Valor, page 80. This is based on an old Polyhedron article by Ed.
Also, I think there was a brief visit to Starmantle in one of Paul Kemp's novels and possible one of Ed's early Elminster novels.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 21:00:50
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Look at the write-up of the Fellowship of the Purple Staff in Champions of Valor, page 80. This is based on an old Polyhedron article by Ed.
Also, I think there was a brief visit to Starmantle in one of Paul Kemp's novels and possible one of Ed's early Elminster novels.
--Eric
I was indeed reading on the Fellowship of the Purple Staff. I didn't know they had an update in Champions of Valor though. For me, I'll be using older lore from pre-2nd Edition (before the Time of Troubles). Could be a good conflict for "Good vs. Good" sort of thing though! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 21:03:11
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| @Markustay: Ilimar? I'm confused about Ilimar myself... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 22:36:59
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Serpent kingdoms, pg. 132, Shining South (3e), pg. 99
And those are Grippli in Urml - the ones from Paul's novel were bigger (can't reference it now, but IIRC they were as big as humans). This fits well with the Ilimar lore (I also may plop a forest in there, against the mountains - the 'drier' (but still wet) portion of the Wetwoods swamp region.
As for the the Fellowship of the Purple Staff - that works fine. I don't know if I'd spin it as 'good vs. good, though - I figure the halflings had small coastal settlements all along, but were afraid to range deeper into the forest. The Nobanions helped clear the deadlier monsters out of the eastern forests, which worked as compromise for the fellowship, who would have preferred completely 'civilizing' the region. This leave a situation where certain humans are trusted - the druids and Nobanions whole-heartedly (who are based out of Cedarspoke), and the Fellowship( although trusted less-so then the others, they are still allowed to maintain tample-forts in certain areas simply because it aids the halflings in their defense of the land).
However, these 'goodly' groups are countered by several nearby evil groups, all of whom (put together) greatly out-number the good folk. Thus-far, the only major groups that have allied are the mostly-human ones (I assume Black Eagle has a deal with Westgate, receiving info about rich caravans and what-not). Westgate (night Masks) is also in talks with Thaalim Torchtower's Tunland bandits (and their pet dragon), and the evil folks of Maerantide - they desperately want to annex the Dragonmere region (before Cormyr does) and are seeking like-minded allies wherever they can. A united 'Kingdom' of Westgate could be big trouble for the folk of the Shires.
Mostly homebrew, of course (except for the actual groups, who all exist). I figured it was a good way to explain why the hallings are more willing to allow others in 'their'(?) lands then what is represented in the canon Five Shires lore.
I also assume that all of the woods were once part of 'Greater Gulthmere', but as the Halflings settled further inland, they began clearing certain (approved) sections. Although their history (in the canon Mystara material and your own chronology) goes back pretty far, their presence in Gulthmere-proper (the canon forest, before I added to it) is probably within the past century or so.
I now realize Nobanion was probably there before the halflings, but it could still go either way.
Also - note that I placed Fort Doom arbitrarily, and it wound-up landing right on top of the of Karsus' tower - HOW FORTUITOUS!!!
Now we know why Bargle puts up with that maniac - he is dying to explore the under-crypts (ruins) below the castle. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 May 2012 22:42:05 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 23:38:35
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The heaviest early settlements by the Hin were around modern Tothmeer; it was where they "came ashore" in their new homeland.
I figured the Hin have been scattered throughout the entire region for a very long time...loosely at first, but over time much more heavily vested in the lands.
The way the orginial canon material of the Five Shires sounds, they have deep history in the entire shires...so I'm not sure exactly how to work the whole thing.
The Halflings do have "Masters" (i.e. Druids) who are actually their "second priesthood", where the Keepers are the actual Clerics who keep the Black Flame.
I'll be able to better mesh things when I see your final map. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 06:55:57
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Yeah, thats kinda of how I was picturing it, to mesh things - that Hin have always been there, in bits and drabs, and then as other Halfling Realms fell (and other races moved into regions they called home) - like Meiritin - they migrated to Gulthmere region where others could be found (and a lot closer then Luiren).
So the Five Shires "just sorta happened". They 'were always there', but it has only become a recognized state recently (a similar history to Cormyr, growth-wise).
Having two names for things works out - we/you can just run with what you did with Amry/Shireton... that the Hin have their own names for stuff.
NEW WIP - At least you can see where everything fall out now.
I noticed quite a few mispellings and other descrepencies on the Five Shires map (from the text), so I corrected everything as I went along, and added in the 'Hin name' where applicable. The name of the mountain range (Cruth) isn't even mentioned in the Mystara material, as far as I can tell, so I just used that as a name for some hills. I also nudged a couple of things around from the first WIP (having found Gurnth, amongst other things).
Thats as far as I plan to go with that one, for now - I need to go to a smaller regional map to fit in all the details (like roads, and naming the waterways, etc). The new one will be just of Gulthmere. When I am done with that, I will revisit the larger campaign-area map (clean it up a bit more, and add a scale & compass rose, etc).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 May 2012 07:00:34 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 12:17:15
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It looks awesome MT!
Also though...Guilder and Florin? 
My wife will be sooooo happy!
Now I just need to write up the stats for the Dread Pirate Roberts! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 13:02:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats as far as I plan to go with that one, for now - I need to go to a smaller regional map to fit in all the details (like roads, and naming the waterways, etc). The new one will be just of Gulthmere. When I am done with that, I will revisit the larger campaign-area map (clean it up a bit more, and add a scale & compass rose, etc).
Hey, what you have done so far is amazing...if you do more that is only butter on the toast!
Would you consider making the Five Shires in a map that included more northerly realms such as Sembia? I'm not being picky about what you have made so far...but my game is going to center around the Five Shires, Cormyr, Sembia, the Dales and the Elven Court...so I'm just "Christmas Shopping" here with ya! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 13:39:51
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@Markustay: A couple of things I've noticed on the map that stand out as a needed fix are a town name and an island placement:
You have "Flagontard" ...should be "Flagonford"
Toth Isle is supposed to be at the mouth of the river near Tothmeer.
EDIT (8:55 a.m EST 5/31/12): I also forgot that Tothmeer has a population of 11,600 and Thantabbar a population of 10,000. I think I'm going to be decreasing some of the heavy population of the Shires cities (those are HUGE NUMBERS for the area); but that would still make Tothmeer a larger city than Thantabbar...as for map-making purposes.
For future maps you talked about roads...I think trails would be better. If we are going to say the Hin have only truly started "civilizing" (as far as Hin consider it...others might hardly NOTICE Hin Civilization!) the interior, I think trails would be best instead of roads. To the Hin they would work just fine as roads...but their carts and wagons might be far smaller than for others; and so better described as trails because they don't offer the true benefit of a road to bigger folk.
@Anyone at all:
Other than that, I just don't know anything about:
Machran Spire...have any information on that I can use?
Gurnth...what is there?
Any other suggestions from folks? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 31 May 2012 13:57:00 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 13:43:36
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| OH! Smuggler's Bank and Redwater...where are those two towns/villages from? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 17:52:54
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They were in the FRIA, and I believe I've seen at least Redwater on one other map. I named it Blood Lake, rather then 'Red Lake' or 'The Redwater' (which is already used twice). I think its supposed to be one long lake, but RW - and elswhere in the Realms - such situations always get different names for the different parts. My assumption here is that there is a heavy amount of iron in the surrounding rock, and the rust gives the water a reddish hue (and also tastes pretty disgusting). The reasons for that assumption are two-fold: 1) The usage of the 'Redwater' name on those other two things, and 2) The soil must be very rocky around that lake, with major mineral deposits, BECAUSE "Why hasn't a kingdom sprung-up around such an excellent body of water, with major sea-access?"
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
@Markustay: A couple of things I've noticed on the map that stand out as a needed fix are a town name and an island placement:
You have "Flagontard" ...should be "Flagonford"
And THAT is what happens when you are labeling crap at 5AM.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Toth Isle is supposed to be at the mouth of the river near Tothmeer.
I didn't think it was that important - I merely 'snipped-off' the tip of the original FR coastline. I still like the way that looks (I think I did it on the Ixinos map as well), so I'll just throw another island near tothmeer, if you like.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I also forgot that Tothmeer has a population of 11,600 and Thantabbar a population of 10,000. I think I'm going to be decreasing some of the heavy population of the Shires cities (those are HUGE NUMBERS for the area); but that would still make Tothmeer a larger city than Thantabbar...as for map-making purposes.
I only adjusted one town 'upward' in size, because it was at a crossroads and made more sense that way (and I also checked its population - its definitely on the high-end of 'village').
Why has the population grown so much in the past few centuries, even though halflings have always lived along the coast (in small fishing villages)? First there was the fall of Meiritan - not all of them went north to Sunset Vale. Then there was Black Oaks/Grey Oaks in Cormyr - halfling populations exist all over the realms, and they are constantly getting displaced. Thus far, they have found the Gulthmere attractive enough to make it a new Hin homeland, but not so attractive as to have others 'kill them and take their stuff'. In fact, its one of the few times they have actively purged others from any area, rather then the other way around.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
For future maps you talked about roads...I think trails would be better. If we are going to say the Hin have only truly started "civilizing" (as far as Hin consider it...others might hardly NOTICE Hin Civilization!) the interior, I think trails would be best instead of roads. To the Hin they would work just fine as roads...but their carts and wagons might be far smaller than for others; and so better described as trails because they don't offer the true benefit of a road to bigger folk.
OKay, now you're getting all 'changey' on me.
Glad I didn't do them yet - roads are a bear, and you have to do them pretty-much freehand. I can take a shortcut with the Path Tool, but you can't do that with dotted lines (not even in PS).
quote:
Machran Spire...have any information on that I can use?
Gurnth...what is there?
See my other thread in the Sages of Realmslore section - those questions got answered.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Any other suggestions from folks?
I ALWAYS have more. 
I have to read through your history, and then the canon history of certain other things (like locales in the Orsraun Mts), and then I would like to give an outline along the lines of "This is how I see it all going down" - a very generalized history of how everything interacted, and how such a realm could have 'happened by accident', and right under the noses of everyone without anyone realizing what was going on (until the halflings were firmly entrenched).
If you don't mind, of course - you don't have to use any of it, its more a 'broad strokes' type of thing that you can tweak the hell out of (sort of how we/you progressed with some of the Ixinos material). I believe someone over on the WotC forums once described my 'technique' as "Throwing stuff at a wall, and seeing what sticks". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 May 2012 18:00:56 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 17:53:55
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Ok...I've just run into a bit of a problem.
The population of the Five Shires is approximately 220,000 souls (counting Hin and friendly populations...not monsters).
In the military section of the book, it says Hin military strength at FULL MUSTER is 60% of that (YIKES! = 132,000). Now I know most of that would be peasants with a dagger or a sling...so I'm going to be ok with that.
However, the STANDING military strength of the land is 10-15 percent. This number is a bit more scary to me. That is 22,000 to 33,000 troops...for halflings.
Now, a LOT of that can go to town guard, merchant caravans and etc. But that is still a lot of Halflings under arms!
I mean, an army of even 10,000 halflings armed as described would make:
all have slings, daggers and shortswords
4% have an additional Shortbow
10% have a spear
10% have pikes
On the field that is:
7,600 Light Infantry Slinger Skirmishers
1,000 Heavy Infantry Spearmen (heavy for Halfling)
1,000 Pikemen
400 archers
I don't know if I like that, or the way halflings are described in Monster Manual I (One); which would break down 10k troops this way:
all armed with daggers AND:
1,000 Shortsword and Shortbow
1,000 Shortbow
2,000 Sling
1,000 Shortsword
1,000 Shortsword and Spear
2,000 Spear
2,000 Hand Axe
What do you guys think? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 18:16:47
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None of the canon army strengths in the Realms makes much sense, why should the Five Shires? This subject has been beaten-to-death many times here and elsewhere.
The 60% number is ludicrous. Half the Hin are female, and probably half are also children. That already cuts you down to about 25% of your pop, not including oldsters (of which there should be many - halflings live a long time). I realize that some females, older kids, and even old folks could still participate, but that gets offset by folks who just plain can't/won't fight. I would just ignore that figure (why should that one thing bother you, when you are converting an entire nation?)
Then there is that other thing I touched upon above - the armies of Faerun. They are so badly mismatched (by RW standards) simply because The Realms has magic, and also a higher level of tech then their civilizations would normally allow. Hin are mall, with almost no magic - you know what Orcs call that? Lunch.
A hundred War Wizards, Zhentish Mages, or Red Wizards would chew-up an army of 20-30K. The only reason why they haven't is because of the few 'nasty surprises' that that Hin have (which are detailed in the Five Shires supplement).
And its pretty much ALL militia - Halflings don't go to war, it comes to them.
Don't the Old Empires have massive armies? And the cities of the Vilhon Reach are all militaristic, IIRC. Seems to me that that army should be helped by someone (like the Chosen in times of need), rather then nerfed. With the two canon FR groups you have present in Gulthmere, that should actually take care of that problem (and you could include their numbers in that 20K figure). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 May 2012 18:20:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 23:52:19
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By pure chance - trying to find a decent history of Westgate - I hit upon something interesting canon...
quote:
From pg.60 of Cloak & Dagger
Finally, the Night Masks has assembled several adventuring companies from within its ranks and sent them into the Gulthmere Forest. Exactly what such groups are looking for remains a mystery, but whispers suggest that the Night Masters seek the legendary lost city of Ilimar.
Still don't know about Westgate's history, though. Stupid city... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jun 2012 05:52:22 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 00:00:47
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I can tell you it officially became a Human City at the date -349 DR.
Grand History of the Realms is FULL of information about Westgate.
Does the information about the Night Masks offer a date as of when this is going on? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 00:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I can tell you it officially became a Human City at the date -349 DR.
Grand History of the Realms is FULL of information about Westgate.
Does the information about the Night Masks offer a date as of when this is going on?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010327d |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 01 Jun 2012 00:18:20 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 01:19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I can tell you it officially became a Human City at the date -349 DR.
Grand History of the Realms is FULL of information about Westgate.
Does the information about the Night Masks offer a date as of when this is going on?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010327d
HOLY! 
Thanks!!! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 05:12:57
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Updated history is ready...much more detail; but may still need fine tuning if I'm missing something obvious. Anyone who wants, please read it and see if you find anything "wrong" about it.
A download can be found here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10166328/FR%20Five%20Shires%20Timeline.docx
PRINTED COPY HERE
THE FIVE SHIRES HISTORY
Circa -950 DR – “The Early Days.” The coming of halflings to Faerdinel and the building of Faerdinel Keep. The Hin make contact with the Gentle Folk, a group of pacifist elven folk who start to mentor the Halflings. Hin records do not indicate where these Hin come from; but many suspect after excavations that the Hin of The Five Shires may have been slaves belonging to Netherese Spelljamming Arcanists which fought for their freedom and forced the ship they were on to crash where Faerdinel was founded. Whether these Hin were from Faerun or some other world is unknown.
Circa -700 DR – Rise of the orc realm of Vastar. Orcs all around the Inner Sea are multiplying rapidly by this time; swarming over the lands seeking new homelands after their crushing defeat during the Orcgate Wars fought centuries before.
-652 DR- The Elves (the Gentle Folk) disappear; fearing their total destruction, the Gentle Folk Retreat to Evermeet on a “Last Ride” borne aloft and away upon the backs of golden winged horses.. Orcs invade the land and enslave the Hin. The Realm of Othrong is founded.
-617 to -616 DR – The First Rising. Hin over-throw orc-king Raurgh at the battles of Hinskulls (-617), Orcfall (-617) and in the Spring Slaughter (-616). Rule of the Elders established in -616 DR; Kingdom of Hindon founded.
-615 DR – The Hin send a diplomatic party to Cormanthor seeking alliance with the elves of that land against the Orcs of the mountains. Some few elven youths seeking adventure journey to Hindon and find the land to their liking; but only a handful remain.
-590 DR – The Fall of Hindon; orcs burn the Elderhall. The Dark Years begin. Duergar and orcs fight for control of the Hin lands beneath the shadowy canopy of the Gulthmere Forest in the battles of Bloody Sands (-588), Fireaxe Field (-584) and the Hill of Cold Teeth (-580).
-581 DR – Dwarven rule begins. The Duergar adventurer Loktal Ironshield is crowned King of the Glittering Land. Any elves in the land chased out or slaughtered. Hin enslaved. The dwarven kingdom quickly grows rich, attracting orc and human invasions that weaken the surface holdings of the Duergar.
-564 DR – The Second Rising. King Loktal defeats orcs at Brokenfang Falls and rushes south to repel gnoll invaders coming east from the western reaches of the Gulthmere, but is too weak to withstand a Hin revolt. Hin found the realm of Shaerdon, ruled by a Council of Hin clan lords.
-530 DR – The “Year of Meager Means” begets a horrible crop famine among the Hin fields of Shaerdon. While none truly starve to death, belts are tightened and many Hin decide to leave Shaerdon for other lands.
-453 to -444 DR – Corruption and rivalries of Hin Lords erupt in the Clanstrife, marked by the Bloodletting (-453) and the battles of Manycoats (-451) and Bell Horse Ford (-449). Orcs come down from the mountains in force (-448) and slowly crush Hin resistance.
-443 to -426 DR – The Time of Torment; Hin enslaved under the orc-king Thrail. King Thrail pays tribute to the dragon Thauglorimorgorus the Black Doom in Hin slaves for the dragon to devour in return for aiding King Thrail in his invasion of Shaerdon.
-426 to -413 DR – Reign of Goghkh; torment of the Hin continues. Goghkh continues to pay Hin-blood tribute to the dragon Thauglor.
-412 to -390 DR – Reign of Furgh Oorr; slavery of Hin continues, but Hin are somewhat better treated. The dragon Thauglor, noting the arrival of elves into his lands in -400 DR, ceases to claim his tribute that same year as he watches the elves encroachment.
-389 DR – The “Orcstrife” begins. Furgh Oorr is slain, but no orc can hold the throne; war between orcs erupts across the country. Pestilence ensues while the “Savage madness” governs the orcs; much bloodshed.
-388 DR – The Hin discover Blackflame deep under the mountains; the Orcstrife continues.
-386 DR – The Third Rising. Hin defeat the orcs, but humans, dwarves and other humanoids continue to invade the land; lawless times begin.
-385 DR – An invasion by Jhaamdath (ostensibly to pacify the chaos in the land) this year is thrown back by a Duergar army allied with orcish mercenaries. Fortunately the human army so weakens the returning Duergar that they are unable to re-establish the Glittering Kingdom and return below.
-385 to -252 DR – The Time of Heroes. Hin warrior-adventurers flourish in the land, eventually reclaiming much of it from invaders. Rebuilding of a Hin Kingdom begins.
-349 DR – Raiding parties from the City of Westgate cease this year as the dragon Kisonraathiisar, the Topaz Dragon ruler of Westgate, is slain by the Netherese wizard Saldrinar. Saldrinar becomes the city’s first human king.
-348 DR – Youngling black dragons begin to infiltrate the Deep Forests and swamps of the Gulthmere and Dragoncoast; and thus the name of “Dragoncoast” still used to this day.
-339 DR – The Year of Sundered Webs causes some small havoc in Shaerdon after the Fall of Netheril. Magical beasts, released from their servitude to Netherese Arcanists, find their way into the deep forests to prey upon the Hin.
-337 DR – Hin agents hire the first Human Wizards to come to Shaerdon to help slay the beasts of the deep forests. To this day, some few rare (and goodly intentioned) wizards are allowed to live within Hin lands on condition that they aid the Hin against magical beasts.
-286 DR – Hin note with trepidation the fall of Westgate to the Vampire Orlak. Vampires had preyed upon the Hin for ages off and on because of the deep forest’s shadowy canopy.
-276 DR – The change in government of Jhaamdath results in the new government desiring a powerful fleet upon the Inner Sea. Jhaamdath forces concessions from various Hin Clan Lords to supply Jhaamdath with timber via the port of Tothmeer. Fine gems secretly paid to Emperor Dharien’s closest advisors keeps Jhaamdathan armies from outright invasion.
-264 DR – The Hin Warrior Gunzuth adventures within Jhaamdath and its environs. His efforts result in convincing several Hin Clan Lords to secretly fund the Church of Auppenser and the city of Gharrent to rebel against the Empire of Jhaamdath this year. The failure of Gunzuth to help his friends in Jhaamdath result in the heavily scarred warrior’s return to Shaerdon and never leaving its bounds again.
-255 DR – The Year of Furious Waves brings the destruction of Jhaamdath and freedom for the Hin from their forced tribute to that Empire. The loss of so many lives does have a profound effect upon the Hin however; serious talks of unity among the Clans begin.
-254 to -251 DR – Many petty warlords attempt invasion of Shaerdon from the lands of modern Turmish; free from the ordered structure of Jhaamdath’s rule, and desperate at times for resources, the humans strike often against the Hin along the coastal paths into the lands of the Hin. Most such bands are no more than desperate brigands and they are easily turned back.
-251 DR – The Restoration. Elders proclaim Gunzuth the Clanless as the First Sheriff of Shaerdon. He rules wisely and well. The land prospers. He formally organizes a militia structure among the clans and places permanent guard on all approaches from southern lands. What few realize is that Gunzuth is a Psion of considerable skill; his mantle of leadership is primarily successful because he is able to root out “Bad Apples” among the various clans.
-247 to -238 DR – The “Procession of Justice” brings the God Tyr to the Vilhon Reach. His efforts to pacify the chaos of the Vilhon is greatly appreciated by many Hin; and his church gains a solid following among the Hin of Shaerdon.
-214 DR – Death of First Sheriff Gunzuth; Shaerdon split into Five Shires, each ruled by a Sheriff; the whole being ruled by a Council of the Five Sheriffs. The “Golden Years” begin. Few nations near Shaerdon threaten it, the Hin living peacefully with the inhabitants of the Gulthmere Forest and lands around.
Circa -200 DR – The Five Sheriffs note the arrival of humans in the southern region of Cormanthor from across the Dragon Reach. The Hin begin earnest trade with these newcomers; some Hin decide to settle alongside the humans.
-153 DR – Dwarves establish the city of Proeskampalar (later to be called Procampur) which attracts few Hin to trade; the Hin having little liking of dwarves, even if they aren’t Duergar. It does increase sea trade however, and many ships leaving the Vilhon reach sailing along the coasts begin to stop more frequently at Hin ports. Westgate benefits greatly from this trade, but the Hin stay wary of that city.
-137 DR – Turmishan adventurers destroy the Vampire King of Westgate (a common saying in the Shires: “We KNEW he was a vampire!”); and trade begins in earnest again with Westgate.
-74 DR – The human city of Marsember is founded, the Hin not so secretly celebrate the continued “plight” of Thauglor in the face of expansion into his domain. Trade with Marsember is as secretive as possible, as many fear still to be eaten by Thauglor.
-37 DR – Hin traders happily begin trading with the settlement of Alaghon in what will eventually become Turmish.
-29 DR – The city of Starmantle is founded officially; Hin merchants dare coastal paths to trade. The tiny trails of the Hin in the Shires are of little use to larger races; and so sea trade remains the primary means of trade between the Dragoncoast and the Vilhon Reach. The Druidic Masters of the Hin think this best at any rate.
1 DR – The Standing Stone is raised by the elves of Cormanthyr and the Dalesmen (some small number of which actually includes Hin farmers), ratifying the Dales Compact between them and starting the Dalereckoning calendar.
4 DR – Mercenary forces from Alaghôn put to port in the Shires for supply before heading to Westgate to war. This is the first foreign army supplied peacefully from among Hin ports.
Circa 10 DR – The settlement of Suzail settled, some few Hin go beyond Marsember to trade there.
26 DR – The founding of the Kingdom of Cormyr. King Faerlthann is given a gift of fine Hin wares and gemstones by the Five Shires, grateful that the lands belonging to their ancient nemesis Thauglor are shrinking.
Circa 50 DR – Hin traders have found open markets for their wares in the Vilhon Reach as the area begins to become more heavily populated and civilized again. However, the city of Hlondeth is as far as most Hin merchants are willing to travel.
75 DR – The Hin avoid the worst of the plagues that wrack southern Faerun. They withdraw into the Five Shires and prohibit entry into their lands until they are sure the plagues have passed; though many Hin still perish, their sort of secluded society doesn’t suffer nearly so bad as neighboring human realms such as Westgate which loses half of its population.
144 DR – As Chondath is founded, the Hin begin to resent the humans of that nation in their wars against the elves. Hin begin pulling back even from Hlondeth and trade only within Alaghon and then return home.
Circa 200 DR – Cedarspoke, a druid enclave dedicated to Silvanus, is established in the deep forest of Gulthmere at the base of the waterfalls cascading from Lake Arluin. Many Hin gladly settle with the humans and half-elves to form the community which operates independently of the Five Shires as the Hin rarely penetrate into the “High Forests” of the Gulthmere near the mountains.
220 DR – Coronal Eltargrim of Cormanthor allows Hin to enter his domain. Many scores of Hin migrate to the great forest of Cormanthor to settle; primarily Hin druids and the wood-wise. Trade to the Coronal’s realm increases via the coastal Dales.
227 DR – The Dwarves of Alaoreum destroy the red dragon Stormcrossing; while their presence is then noted by the humans of Turmish, the Hin send gifts (of items other than gold or gems, as the Hin are firm believers that Dwarves cast too greedy an eye on mineral wealth from their history with the Duergar) and great offers of foodstuffs in celebration that the dragon will no longer raid Hin farms.
257 DR – Westgate is conquered by Pirates searching for a new free-port after being pushed from Hlondeth. Trade ceases again with Westgate, and goes instead into Starmantle. The cities of Westgate and Starmantle have for centuries competed against each other in trade, and the Hin continue their attempt to play the cities against each other to allow the Shires to remain unmolested by a united western neighbor.
270 DR – The Five Shires withdraws its trade from Turmish and Chondath as the two nations go to war; citing neutrality, the Hin simply desire to remain free of possible entanglements that may harm their merchants.
284 DR – A great “Halfling” migration hundreds strong arrives at Myth Drannor from Meiritin and Tethyr by way of the first open portals set up to bring folk to the city. They find some dozens of “halflings” already there as trading merchants and adventurers from The Five Shires. The groups celebrate in the midst of Myth Drannor after finding new kin.
286 DR – The Hin immigrants to Myth Drannor open taverns to all races, thereby causing all elf-run taverns, inns and halls to lessen their strictures on patrons over the next several years. Back in The Five Shires, Hin begin to open many more taverns and begin to once again welcome folk of other races into their lands.
292 DR – Gnomes come to the city of Myth Drannor for the first time since the time of Netheril; Hin from The Five Shires invite the more magically inclined (meaning Illusionists!) to visit The Five Shires where they would be paid well to help cloak the land in Illusions to help thwart invasion and raiding. Some few accept as individuals; but the Hin are saddened that Myth Drannor is much more appealing to the gnomes than the Shires.
300 DR – As Chondath and Turmish arrange their “Shieldmeet Wars” the Hin cautiously return to trade with both kingdoms. The founding of the bardic college Academia Vilhonus this same year is great cause for celebration by the Hin who invite bards to visit The Five Shires and perform. The ancient history of the Hin of The Five Shires begins to be spread about Faerun.
346 DR – The Hin Warrior Halden is made a lieutenant of Arms-Major Pirphal of Cormanthyr and is offered the gift of one of the first three Baneblades.
352 DR – Fire causes considerable damage to the shipyards and granaries of Alaghon in Turmish; Hin trade goods to Turmish increase considerably and the Sheriffs Council actually gifts Turmish with ships constructed in Tothmeer.
358 DR – By this year, the Hin have well established sea trade with many of the nations along the shores of the Sea of Fallen Stars, their galleys staying close to shore; Hin favor the ports of Cormyr and Sembia, not wishing to venture too far from home or into lands belonging to slavers and warmongers. Lieutenant Halden of Myth Drannor is given the first of the Baneblades of Demron; the Coronal is sent many grateful gifts by Hin who support his policies toward their people.
400 DR – Trade from The Five Shires to Sembia becomes strained as orc and goblin raiders hound the fledgling cities of Chondathan and Chauncelgaunt (present-day Saerloon and Selgaunt) where the Hin prefer to port. It is soon discovered that Pirates have taken coin from the humanoids to deliver them to the coasts of Sembia.
429 DR – Westgate is free from the rule of pirates as Mulsantir Illistine forces them from the city and becomes the new King. The Hin gladly once again trade with Westgate and reduce their trade with Starmantle.
429 to 432 DR – Hin trade to Cormyr is halted as a large pirate force, led by Magrath the Minotaur, seizes Suzail after paying off the King of Cormyr’s father-in-law. In a fierce battle in 432 DR, Suzail is reclaimed and Magrath the Minotaur is defeated; trade is restored.
452 DR – The “Realm of Mynth” begins expansion after the Shoonite wizard Myntharan takes the crown of Westgate. His armies conquer a large area of the Dragoncoast and right to the borders of the Gulthmere Forest. The Sheriffs continue to allow trade with the Realm of Mynth.
462 DR – The Coronal halts the building of many structures in Myth Drannor and curbs immigration as well; the Hin of The Five Shires begin to invite gnomes to their lands, but continue to fail in their bid to bring more magical warding to their clan holdings.
472 DR – The harvests of The Five Shires is so abundant this year that many say it could feed all the Hin for two years. The deep cold lockers and cellars of the Hin are stocked to bursting and still great feasts and festivals are celebrated with near abandon.
480 DR – The “Realm of Mynth” is shattered with the death of Myntharan. The “crowning” of the androsphinx Lyonarth is heard with some great trepidation among the Hin of the Five Shires; many remember the stories of days when a dragon or vampire ruled that city and Hin suffered attacks by “the minions of Beast-Kings!” Trade continues however, as many proclaim Lyonarth far more favorable a monarch than the human Myntharan.
512 DR – An orc horde of the Candlekairn clan, long hating the prospect of fighting in the twisting paths of “The Cursed Lands” (aka The Five Shires) spills out of the Orsraun Mountains against Turmish, destroying several Turmish cities before it is finally routed in later summer. Hin adventurers attack many of the Candlekairn orc holdings in the mountains while the majority of orcs are away to cause mischief and destruction against their most hated enemy.
515 DR – Hin from the realm of Meiritin reach the Shires and tell of their mistreatment at the hands of humans in the west. While these Hin (primarily the older or younger) settle within The Five Shires, many native Hin youths seeking to fulfill their wander-lust venture to the west to “make things right” in those lands.
516 DR – Hin from the Delimbiyr Vale and humans from Delimbiyran establish Secomber; and Hin from the Shires base their adventures from this new city.
517 DR – Mount Andrus in the Orsraun Mountains erupts, inflicting further punishment on the Candlekairn orcs; the Hin celebrate and send piles of bones and rocks as “tribute” to the orcs in the mountains.
Circa 600 DR – Modern ships sail the surface of the Sea of Fallen Stars from many ports by this time. The Hin, with their antique style of coastal galleys begin to fall behind in their seafaring technology and instead simply allow trusted human ship captains to make port to buy Hin goods.
615 DR – The “Winter Sphinx” of Westgate falls prey to the charms of the lamia Nessmara who goes disguised as a gynosphinx. The Hin give it little consideration at this time because the current “Beast-King” of Westgate has caused no trouble for them.
616 DR – The “Beast Monarchs” of Westgate are deposed, and a human monarchy is installed. King Farnath Ilistar is crowned; Hin trade continues in plenty.
661 DR – Coronal Eltargrim “Hin-Friend” passes on to Arvandor. The Sheriffs send gifts to his niece Aravae Irithyl and all the clans of The Five Shires mourn the passing of an elf many consider much akin to the Gentle Folk who once nurtured the Hin when they came to their homeland.
710 DR – Iyachtu Xvim “the Baneson” seizes the throne of Westgate. Unsure of his motives, the Hin call the militia to high alert. The full militia is called up this year for re-arming and equipment upgrading while going through more training. All trade stops to Westgate.
711 DR – The Weeping War commences; though the Hin (and others) will not call it this until later, as many are not aware of the intentions of the Army of Darkness really.
713 DR – Many Hin with no skill in matters related to war, leave Myth Drannor and begin to return to the Five Shires to wait out the war; few realize they will not ever return to the city.
717 DR – The Windlass sends the forces of Turmish against the Emerald Enclave; the defeat of Turmish and the affiliation the Hin have with druids causes the Sheriffs to order all trade with Turmish suspended until the matter resolves itself.
720 DR – With the founding of Elventree, the Hin again begin indirect trade with the elves of the Elven Court. Some few Hin set up permanent “shop” in Elventree.
724 DR – After the last members of the Windlass are slain in battle, the nation of Turmish is ruled safe to trade with again; though the Sheriffs insist that such trade should be only in items that could not be used in war. It is during this time that The Five Shires, directed by the Sheriff’s Council decides to only deal in items of trade from their lands that are “peaceful” and enjoyable.
734 DR – After a series of “mistakes” made by Iyachtu Xvim, a disgruntled host of mercenaries forces him to flee from the city of Westgate. The Hin simply mark the day of yet another despot being deposed within Westgate and carry on with their lives…and trade to Westgate of course.
884 DR – A Chondathan mercenary army is destroyed by the elves of Cormanthor in the Battle of Singing Arrows. The Hin withdraw all trade from both Chondath and its colonies in what will one day soon be Sembia.
896 DR – Extensive poverty and famine stalk the lands of Faerun from this year to 900 DR; but the Hin of The Five Shires, having much in abundance truly only need tighten their belts “a notch or two” and drink a bit less so that bread in plenty can be made.
900 DR – Civil war erupts in Chondath; the Hin notice little as they have still not lifted their ban on trade with Chondath due to the Battle of Singing Arrows.
902 DR – The Sembian City-States of Chondathan and Chauncelgaunt are formally granted independence by Chondath; but in truth have essentially been free since the Chondathan civil war erupted. The Hin begin to again trade with the newly freed cities; but remain far from the markets of Chondath as it enters the horrible days of “The Rotting War” that tears Chondath apart. When Chondath essentially ceases to be, the Hin again decide to allow trade with the remaining city-states.
913 DR – Sembia is officially founded under the Raven Banner, the personal emblem of Rauthauvyr “the Raven,” a human war-leader. The Hin gladly trade with the nation, though its feelings toward Sembia often near anger because of Sembia’s horrible relationship with the elves of Cormanthor.
933 DR – Various islands off the coast of the Five Shires are this year used as year round naval bases for the first time. Hin build large numbers of small, stout rounded ships (nicknamed “Wallowing Turtles” by human sailors for their comical appearance in heavy seas), which prove astonishingly sturdy. Hin seaborne trade flourishes as the Hin “catch up” to the naval technologies of human nations.
944 DR – The Pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars (steadily on the rise in power since the advent of modern sailing ships) push the Hin from the few islands they claim within the “Sea of Dread” (the Hin name for the Sea of Fallen Stars) and take their ships that are in harbors; many Hin are enslaved as galley slaves or sold in southern markets. In retaliation, Hin begin “Freebooting” and Piracy against the Pirates (and others), which continues to this day.
955 DR – Persistent rumors of a Demi-God called Nobanion stalking the Gulthmere Forest is noted by the Sheriff’s Council. The druids of both Cedarspoke and native Hin druids seem to vouch for the good will of this new power.
958 DR – Contact with Lammasu representing Nobanion results in an elite order of warriors being formed within The Five Shires. The “Fangs” are a group of Hin that form into a Knighthood of sorts; but members are in truth anything from Clerics and Druids, on through Fighters to Thieves as well. Some few Hin are even rumored to ride astride great lions as powerful Knights of other realms do.
992 DR – Lord Saros of Turmish begins shaping his nation into one of the strongest naval powers of the Vilhon Reach; partially in response to increased piracy. The Five Shires decides to build a fleet of ships for home defense to deter possible aggression. To this day, the fleet remains small; but coupled with the numerous Hin Freebooters and Pirates, the shores of The Five Shires remain free from predation by other nations and pirates as well.
1018 DR – The Rage of Dragons strikes the lands of The Five Shires. Fortunately, most Hin have homes built primarily underground; but the coastal cities suffer much damage. Had the Fangs not existed, it is thought damage and death would have been far worse. Rebuilding results in special weapons being built atop covered towers which will help against future dragon attack. While some few dragons had always preyed upon The Five Shires citizens, this attack is nothing like earlier lone dragons; and the Sheriffs begin to equip The Fangs with weaponry capable of doing battle against numbers of dragons. The only good news this year is that the fabled and evil “Devourer,” the dragon Thauglorimorgorus is slain in Cormyr. The Hin celebrate the destruction of the hated creature for a full month.
1058 DR – A huge orc horde invades the southern Shires. The orcs are drawn skillfully into a trap and destroyed in the Battle of Blackflame. Routed back into the mountains by the Hin, the Orcs are once again sent “tribute” in the form of broken orcish weapons and rotten cabbages stuffed inside orc skulls.
Circa 1150 DR – Chondathan mercenaries “spill” out of the Vilhon as Chondath becomes awash with military capable men and women. The Sheriffs again begin to carefully watch to ensure the resurgent power of Chondath does not turn its eyes on The Five Shires.
1150 DR - The undead beast called Borran Klosk marches massive undead armies against the human cities of the Vilhon Reach. The Hin send their readied forces to the aid of Turmish in the Battle of Morningstar Hollows; here the Emerald Enclave, the dwarves of the Alaoreum and the Hin aid in the final defeat of the monstrous Mohrg Borran Klosk and the fiend is imprisoned by priests of Eldath beneath Alaghon.
1154 DR – Chondath is officially no longer a nation, but instead a group of city-states; though in fact it had been this way for long decades in all but name. Nothing truly changes for the Hin, though many say concerning Chondath “Tis always done to you what ya do to others!” meaning that Chondath finally got what it deserved after its many years of wars against elves and its own people.
1164 DR – Immurk the Invincible daringly takes the crown destined for the brow of Palaghard I of Cormyr. Pirates of the Inner Sea have started to increase in both numbers and ability; and in response the nations of the Inner Sea begin building even greater warships seeking to defend their merchant fleets and hunt the pirates in their own lairs. Hin pirates suffer many losses after this time until they too gain greater ships.
1180 DR – Immurk the Invincible continues to grow in power; he destroys or takes nearly all of Sembia’s fleet this year. Hin pirates, at an all-time low in numbers, are little able to protect the shores of The Five Shires against human pirates by this year.
1201 DR – Immurk the “not so” Invincible finally dies in battle against Sembian warships at the helm of his ship, Sea Scorpion; but only from his heart bursting and not an enemies blade. Immurk’s long reign as the Lord of Pirates has cost the merchants of The Five Shires much, and also the lives of many hundreds of Hin seamen who tried to stop his plundering of their trade.
1204 DR – The time when Hin shipping is safer quickly ends as Urdogen the Red claims the Dragonisle and rule of the pirates of the Inner Sea. Raids against the ports and coastal towns of The Five Shires become almost commonplace this year. The Sheriffs are hard pressed to provide adequate protection at sea, and learning from their past experiences with Immurk the Sheriffs order all sea trade suspended until the matter can be dealt with.
1205 DR – A massive investment begins by the Sheriffs to increase the fortifications of its major ports along the very vulnerable coastline of the Shires. Great numbers of humans, dwarves and gnomes are hired to offer plans for how best to defend the cities. Eventually, the Sheriffs decide to award their contracts to the gnomes because the building will take decades and only the gnomes have the lifespan, the plan and the proper stature!
1209 DR – Impiltur, Aglorand and many other nations form a united fleet that defeats a great pirate flotilla led by Urdogen the Red near the Dragonisle. The Five Shires begins trading again, and has stored many years of cheap items to sell to currently strained markets as well!
1220 DR – Turmish begins to wage war against the Dwarves of the Alaoreum. The Sheriff’s order neutrality in the conflict as both nations were once allied to The Five Shires during the war against the Mohrg Klosk.
1227 DR – Dhalmass, the Warrior King of Cormyr, seizes the port city of Marsember. As most illicit trade goods were smuggled into Cormyr via this port by Hin pirates representing some elements of The Five Shires, certain guilds in the Shires are severely hurt after proper searches of incoming ships are ordered by the Kingdom of Cormyr. This forces many Hin Pirates to begin selling their goods in Westgate instead; something many are loath to do, but business is business after all.
1233 DR – The fortifications in Tothmeer are complete this year; the port closest to the Pirate Isles was deemed of high priority and much was spent in its defense.
1237 DR – The fortifications of Thantabbar are completed this year. While work here started after the capitol of Shireton, the capital’s defenses are the most intricate and demanding.
1240 DR – The defenses of Shireton are completed this year. To this day, few nations have such extensive and intricate sea defenses as the Hin capitol. Much gnomish magic and ingenuity is used to create a powerful defense against both the sea and from any attack from land. This same year, the many dozens of gnomish architects and their families are awarded the village of Mar to dwell within under the protection of the Sheriffs and their Krondar (deputies) while Turmish and the Dwarves of Ironfang Keep agree to leave the village free as well. Many gnomes choose to leave for other parts, but many choose to stay within The Five Shires. More gnomes stay within Shireton than move to Mar; making the Gnome Village of Mar the second largest population of gnomes in the area. This year, the gnomes begin construction of a temple to Gond within Shireton as well.
1241 DR – The dwarves of the Alaoreum end the war with Turmish by bringing the mountain down upon their own city and sealing its gates against further attack. The Hin are astonished at this news, and foreswear trade with Turmish and then make ready for any possible conflict with their neighbor which now has an army with no target. The attack does not come however.
1242 DR – Anaglathos, the blue dragon, arrives in Turmish and assumes control of the Kingdom. The army Turmish had used against the dwarves is scattered; thus ending any threat to the Shires. Anaglathos, so consumed with its new role as monarch, doesn’t even cause trouble for the Hin; however their trade remains severed with Turmish. Anaglathos is not firmly in control of Turmish until the following year.
1247 DR – The paladin Corwin Freas is crowned Lord of Turmish after he and a band of adventurers defeat the dragon Anaglathos. Lord Freas erects a monument of apology to the dwarves of the Alaoreum near their “former” city; this action, coupled with the fact Lord Freas dissolves his own monarchy the following year for the establishment of the Assembly of Stars, convinces the Hin to open trade again with Turmish in 1248 DR.
1248 DR – The city of Westgate establishes an elected leadership after its last king dies in a boat race against wizards of Thay. Hin profits increase as human palms need less greasing.
1253 DR – The plague which strikes the northern Inner Sea is mostly avoided by the Hin; however they are forced to suspend trade with nations such as Cormyr and Sembia for the duration.
1267 DR – Prodigious crops cause much celebration among the Hin; to such an extent that many new notches are forced into belts as the truly happy are widened with ample girth!
1288 DR – The Duergar kin of vile, but fabled, Loktal begin to wage war against their weakened kin of the Alaoreum dwarves of Ironfang. Rumor of this war reaches the Sheriffs from adventurous Hin who have breached the Underdark and fought the Duergar of Underspires.
1297 DR – The dwarf city of Ironfang emerges from its self-imposed exile seeking alliance against the Duergar. Just as they were informed by adventuring Hin, Turmish is now ruled by less warlike men; and the Hin gladly begin trade with the dwarves of Ironfang to aid against the hated Duergar.
1302 DR – Knowing that the exposed dwarves of Ironfang could ill afford battle against the orcs, Hin spies “made it known” to creeping orcs that the Hin were pre-occupied with mounting an expedition to aid the dwarves against the Duergar. The Hin army surprises a gathering orc horde south of Wereskalot and routes them back into the Orsraun Mountains in the battle of Fire Rock. The Hin follow the orcs to their many lairs, as can be found, and carry the battle to the orcs in a great slaughter before returning home.
1312 DR – Hin pirates are overjoyed when the Mlaerae re-found the city of Teziir after self-exile from decadent Westgate. Hin leave off fully from doing business in dangerous Westgate at this time and put into Teziir with their “wares” destined for points inland.
1317 to 1323 DR – The Plague of Dragons strikes The Five Shires like much of the Vilhon Reach and beyond. The ports of The Five Shires are hit badly, and many Hin die in the thousands. Clan leaders call for a return to simpler times, and the Hin begin to withdraw from activity beyond their borders; becoming much more insular after this time. While Hin pirates still exist, their numbers and willingness to venture much further than within seeing distance from the shores of their homeland decreases drastically.
1325 DR – Another year of record breaking crops at last gives the Hin comfort after the horrible years of the plague. Though the Hin celebrate mightily their bounty, they still remain “at home” and rarely have much desire to leave their pastoral homeland.
1328 DR – A “distant relation” to King Azoun of Cormyr, who is from the city of Westgate, openly lays claim to the coastal village of Halag. “Baron” Ludwig, son of Hendrik of Westgate, renames his domain the Black Eagle Barony; his initial move into the area is aided by his claim that he is taking the land in the Name of the Crown of Cormyr! The “Baron” even attempts to make his claim legitimate by sending tribute to Suzail. It is said the Baron is aided by a powerful wizard named Bargle from unknown lands; and that this Bargle helped the Baron find the fabled treasure of the long lost ship Winsome Wyrm that was sunk outside the city of Westgate in 1091 DR; and this great treasure enabled his massing of a mercenary army. The truth of matters comes quickly and sharply into focus however; as orcish mercenaries and worse come to the banner of the Black Eagle Baron. The native inhabitants of the area become serfs and the humanoids lord over all in the name of the Black Eagle Baron.
1347 DR – The continuing insular nature of the Hin lead many outsiders to the belief that the plague has greatly weakened The Five Shires. This prompts many incursions into the Five Shires by mercenaries, pirates and evil organizations this year. Each “Invasion” is annihilated by the Hin Fangs which protect the land from “tomb robbers and worse” that raise the ire of the Hin Sheriffs. The corrupt and evil warlord, one “Baron” Ludwig of the Black Eagle Barony is outraged when three separate armies as well as his raiding slavers and treasure seekers were so easily turned back. His “Iron Ring” slavers (thought to be a branch of the Night Masks of Westgate) begin to try and infiltrate The Five Shires ports. By the end of the year, all interested parties have been greatly convinced that the Sheriffs are still well in control of the land and capable of defending it.
1356 DR – Another “Dragon Rage” causes a Flight of Dragons to fall upon the Dalelands, Cormyr, and the cities of the Moonsea. No dragons arrive within the lands of The Five Shires; but the Hin again ensure their city defenses are capable against dragons by learning from those lands that are attacked how to best fight dragons. Many Hin go abroad at the request of the Sheriffs to attempt the hiring of wizards of goodly nature to live within the lands of the Shires. Some few minor wizards, hoping against hope they never have to fight dragons, do indeed move to the Shires and take the lands offered them by the Sheriffs to live upon freely.
1357 DR – The Sage Elminster, while delivering many travelogues, maps and other works from Faerun to Ed of the Greenwood, mistakenly places a misinformed book into the man’s hands. Instead of accurately portraying the history of The Five Shires as a nation within Faerun where Hin have lived for centuries, the book foolishly places the Hin in a fantasy world called Mystara. It is later said that Elminster tells Ed Greenwood that this was not in fact a mistake, but a purposeful ploy to see to the safety of the Hin who make some of the finest tobacco in all of Faerun.
Meanwhile in Faerun this same year; the Hin of The Five Shires decide to once again venture more into the surrounding world and many surrounding nations are glad to see fine Hin wares again in the shops of surrounding lands.
1358 DR – The Campaign begins on the First Day of this year.
EDIT (1:15 p.m. EST 1 June 12): made an adjustment to the timeline for 1240 DR (marked in bold font). |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 01 Jun 2012 18:17:09 |
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The Five Shires of the Forgotten Realms
