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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
486 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2012 :  12:35:47  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm hoping this "Elminster's Realms" will be a prequel product, and not some post-4e crap. The cover with the dark-elf Elminster is giving me a very bad feeling....

However - as I have said numerous times already - what I want, and what I think they should do aren't the same thing.


As I understand it (and I may not be totally accurate here), the 'Elminster's Realms' book is Ed's campaign before he sold it to TSR, plus the way that home campaign has evolved since, unaltered by anything TSR/WotC has done. So we may not see certain elements that were present even in the Old Grey Box. While the Moonshaes (for example) may be present geographically, it is possible they are a far cry from what we know in almost every other respect.

I for one am incredibly curious as to what Ed's original vision for the Realms is/was. I have been since the day I read that his home campaign is based on his original vision, not anything after the TSR sale. And by all appearances, we get to find out what it is. The fourth quarter of this year cannot come too soon for me.

- OMH
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2012 :  12:43:21  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wotc are going to cover multiple eras, they said that a few months ago, why all this talk about a reboot?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34941 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2012 :  18:13:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Wotc are going to cover multiple eras, they said that a few months ago, why all this talk about a reboot?



Perhaps because we are fans of the setting and we have definite ideas for what we want? Perhaps because we don't know what WotC considers supporting multiple eras?

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Venger
Learned Scribe

USA
268 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2012 :  18:17:27  Show Profile Send Venger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Wotc are going to cover multiple eras, they said that a few months ago, why all this talk about a reboot?



Multiple eras doesn't change the fact that many don't like the Spellplague Realms, period. Nor does multiple era support solve the original problem, which is that many people wanted to see the 3E Realms evolve as it would have otherwise. You can't have that because eventually as you advance it you're going to run right into the Spellplague Realms. I'd prefer a Realms that can move past the date in which the Spellplague occured without the Spellplague existing.

"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power."
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
144 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2012 :  22:09:36  Show Profile Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is why, in my version of the Realms, Mystra is still Midnight. I just skipped that entirely.

And further change happened this weekend. One of my players is well enough versed in Realmslore to have realized that the gate to Avernus under Castle Dragonspear is a Holiest of Holies of the Church of Mystra. Once they deal with what destroyed the strine to Tempus, they want to replace it with a temple to Mystra. I just might allow it to happen, if they do a good enough job of greasing the wheels of bureaucracy.

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
917 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2012 :  22:20:30  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I want a reboot to the Grey Box. That's my deep down desire and wish. I don't, however, know if this is even remotely feasible as a business plan. I often get into arguments here not because I'm a fanboi of the latest Realms, but because the Realms won't get supported at all if they only cater to fans like us. It's just not possible. They need to infuse new crazy ideas all the time in order to keep cash flowing. Continuity is a minimal benefit to them at all. This is why they got rid of continuity editors.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3478 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2012 :  22:27:44  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ew... The ''continuously introducing crazy ideas, no matter what'' part is not exactly encouraging for the One Realms goal...

That is if for ''crazy ideas'' you mean RSEs, godly dramas and continuity breaking retcons (etc...).

Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jun 2012 22:30:01
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34941 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2012 :  23:05:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ideas can be intro'ed without being crazy ideas, and it can be done while maintaining continuity.

I find it constantly irksome to be told that what was done before can't be done now.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jun 2012 23:06:31
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snotereceorlas
Acolyte

United Kingdom
4 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2012 :  14:19:05  Show Profile Send snotereceorlas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Wotc are going to cover multiple eras, they said that a few months ago, why all this talk about a reboot?



Perhaps because we are fans of the setting and we have definite ideas for what we want? Perhaps because we don't know what WotC considers supporting multiple eras?



Multiple timelines in theory could be run, of course. But to get this clear: mulitple timelines means at least one with Spellplague and one where it didn't happen - does it? When i first read "multiple timelines" i thought we would have a supported campaign in the Arcane Age, another set in 1000DR and so on. i think i got the wrong end of the stick (as often).

In point of fact i love the history of the realms just as... well, history. i have bought lots and lots of FR material for no other reason than i wanted to find out what happened when, or who did what in 1026 in Waterdeep etc. This includes 3e/4e and earlier. Lots of my money going on WotC products that i had no strict intention to put to any immediate use.

quote:
Originally posted by Venger

quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Wotc are going to cover multiple eras, they said that a few months ago, why all this talk about a reboot?



Multiple eras doesn't change the fact that many don't like the Spellplague Realms, period. Nor does multiple era support solve the original problem, which is that many people wanted to see the 3E Realms evolve as it would have otherwise. You can't have that because eventually as you advance it you're going to run right into the Spellplague Realms. I'd prefer a Realms that can move past the date in which the Spellplague occured without the Spellplague existing.



I would prefer to move through the spellplague and find a way for some plucky adventurers to bring healing to the realms, so people in Cormyr, for instance, can say: 'The spellplague? I remember that. It was nasty. Just as well everything's alright now thanks to that Cleric and his sister...'

(Cleric and sister - the two main characters in my novel!)

A big problem to my mind is what happens to all the fiction written by RA Salvatore and all the others about the spellplague and its effects? Bruneor and most of his friends are now in a kind of private paradise and we have lost them... and so on.

Andrew
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2012 :  06:15:50  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, I joined this conversation late. Go me. I have not read through the whole thread, so forgive me if there is repetition. Like many, I was not happy with 4e, mainly for the killing of some of the gods and the time jump. While I wish it never happened, and while a reboot would be good in some respects, it would also be a big slap in the face for the authors/designers who worked in 4e, and there were some good novels that came out of 4e (mechanics don't really apply to me since I mainly read the novels). There were ones I greatly enjoyed, and I read them because I wanted to know what happens. And since I have all these novels, to suddenly have books on my shelf that imply these events never happened would be...weird. Besides, how far back would the retcon go? Would the ToT never have happened? And I actually LIKED the reclamation of Myth Drannor, thank you. Or, would it just go back to 1385 and something other than the Spellplague happen? If there -was- going to be a retcon, this is where I personally think it should start. But, again, this would be a jab at all the post-Spellplague books.

About there being support for all eras, and again, for me, this concerns the novels: in theory, this is a good idea, because it would allow authors to write about things they hadn't before, and would give those who don't want to know what happens in 4e-5e some "new material" to read. But, at least for me, say something happened in a certain area in 4e--or even 5e--that wasn't very pleasing. If we read a story that took place pre-Spellplague, I'd be like "well, this is great, but this place gets murderized later". That would make for a hard read. Granted, I wouldn't have to read it if I didn't want to, but the fact is it'd still be there. I'm sure people disagree with me, and I know I've said something along these lines before, but since this thread is discussing such things, I thought I'd share my views.

I think the reason why so many people are wary of 5e is because of what happened in 4e. They don't want to have another let-down. I myself am wary, but it is the Realms, so I will give it a chance. There are novels I'm waiting on sequels for, anyway.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
197 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2012 :  19:01:15  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is very difficult to build emotional ties to places in a campaign world if you and the players know that place will later be destroyed in a cataclysm. It is also very difficult to feel that the heroic deeds of the adventures have value when you know, that no matter what sacrifices you make, will that village you are trying to save be destroyed in a coming cataclysm.
It do mean, at least for persons like me, that I have to cut of the entire 4e and 5e timeline in order for it to feel great to play in the 3e timeline.
The 4e and 5e realms simply did not happen and none of the novels from that time period would exist, in fact I would avoid reading them
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2012 :  22:58:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
However, I feel it only really affects the published Realms, and NOT the ones we game in (since technically, everyone of us is running a 'parallel world') That means the Spellplague need never happen in our campaigns, just as the ToT never happened in a lot of people's (including Ed's).

The ONLY people who are affected by the canon Realms are the authors - they are STUCK with that continuity, and if fans don't like it, that means we won't want to read their books. It doesn't mean we can't just go on enjoying the Realms as a D&D setting.

The game Realms are a buffet, from which we can pick & choose; the novels are the only thing wearing the shackles of continuity. They hurt themselves, not us. My Realms are whatever I say they are. I don't need the novels - I read them if I like the subject matter. They want to shoot themselves in the foot, so be it. Its not our jobs in jeopardy. People have to realize the truth is no-one is more desperate for 5e FR to succeed then them. If it fails, I still eat next week, and so do most of the rest of us.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  04:32:56  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not to step on your toes, Markustay, but some of us only read the novels. I've bought some sourcebooks, yes, but they are mainly for references. So continuity is very important to people like myself, who are affected by the novels, as the authors are. And those authors deserve a say, and respect. Of course gamers can choose what to use and what to leave out, but novel readers such as myself are more directly affected by what goes on in the Realms.

I roleplay through writing with friends, and do I take liberties with the Realms. For example, in one such RP Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are alive and well and Shevarash is currently walking the world disguised as an elf named Korryl. But that doesn't mean I'm not affected and don't care about what happens in the novels. I was introduced to the Realms through the novels, not the game. I have high respect for the game, don't get me wrong, but if the novels didn't matter, they probably wouldn't exist in the first place.

And from a marketing standpoint, even if the gamers can still pick and choose, if 5e fails with the novels, WofC will still lose a lot of fans, and thus money.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  09:08:52  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally consider the realms, and all D&D settings save maybe Dragonlance, to be game/RP worlds first and novel worlds second. I think the novels help add a lot of depth and color to the world, help expand it, and are a wellspring of inspiration for character behavior within the setting, but I don't feel particularly bound to see any of them as canon within my games.

For instance, I loved Erik's novel, Shadowbane, painted a great picture of Luskan and I've been toying around with setting an rp there in the basic time frame of the novel, but it would completely disregard the ending. And the better part of the middle, for that matter.

Anyway, knowing impending catastrophe is coming doesn't invalidate the accomplishments or adventures of a party set before the Spellplague or before the Time of Troubles, unless it takes place literally the day before. To me, it's one of those things that adds a sense of tragedy to the world. And I'm a big fan of tragedy.


"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  19:36:27  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haha yet another thing we disagree on XD I'm not a big fan of tragedy. I don't expect--or want--the stories to be all all happy and fluffy. There needs to be some conflict, otherwise you wouldn't have much of a story. And fantasy makes for epic conflict. But I like at least semi-happy endings.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  19:52:19  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I enjoy bittersweet endings, myself, with happy endings being something that need to be earned and suffered for.

But, say I were to write a story set in the real world in Haiti a year before that earthquake hit. About a missionary or a charity worker or just a concerned citizen working to build a school for at risk children or some such. An inspiring tale of working to make the world a better place.

Is the merits of that story invalidated because, inevitably, an earthquake is going to hit and reduce the school they worked so hard to build to rubble? Or is it simply a new challenge put in their path to be overcome?

To me, the Spellplague is just another challenge the world must face and overcome, and possibly a gift to be harnessed and utilized(Big supporter of the Order of Blue Fire). It shook up the status quo- took a sledge hammer to it, really- but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Gives people a chance to grow in unexpected ways and develop in new directions.

Suffering builds character.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  23:22:37  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mmm, point taken. I guess it would depend on the story/tragedy then. I don't think a character with a perfect life would be very interesting. Heck, plenty of my characters have had terrible pasts that they have to try and overcome. Some author once said (and the name escapes me) "put your characters through hell, but give them a happy ending". Or at least semi-happy. With the Haiti example, yes, I'd probably want to read about the founding of the school (Haiti needs them, after all). And if the story continued after the earthquake, I wouldn't expect it to be "woo, happy ending". What I'd expect to see (and this would depend on how far you took the story) would be them in the "recovery stages", with maybe some promises/hopes to rebuild. A lot of books I've read, after the "big thing", if you will, has happened, people are working to rebuild--be it a city or something else. There are exceptions, but I haven't read many books where whatever was destroyed was completely rebuild at the end. It was in the recovery stage, so to speak.

I like trials and tribulations in a story. If no suffering happened, it would be a pretty boring story. And stirring up the emotions of the reader is part of what makes a good author. So I'm not against characters suffering, be they my own or someone else's. I just like my endings to be at least semi-happy.

So ulmitately, it would depend on the story. There was a lot about the Spellplague I didn't like, but I still read the Realms, and I'm reading some pre-Spellplague stuff. So yeah, depends.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
313 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2012 :  02:46:18  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IMO diversity is key especially over a product line stretching many years. Every story being a tragedy is just as boring as every story having the hero winning the day.

Tarlyn Embersun
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
214 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  00:24:35  Show Profile Send ksu_bond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

At the end of the day, it will be the consensus they must go with, no matter what any of want individually.

I think I've only seen two others with my exact attitude/preference; Jorkens was one, can't remember the other. Basically, what we want, and what we think is best for the game (and FR) are two separate animals. They cannot afford to disenfranchise the fans they have - they tried that and we got 4e (which has lead us straight here).

If not handled delicately, 5e could blow up in their faces all over again.



But if they stayed with the current model I'm sure a change of edition wouldn't bring back those who left. I thought what happened to the Realms was what caused people to leave, not the 4th edition rules. I left FR because the Spellplague was the dumbest thing ever and what happened afterwards.

Pretty much a new edition isn't going to suddenly make people like the change.



I left because of the 4e changes to the Realms, not because of the new editions rules...
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
486 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  05:45:43  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
I left because of the 4e changes to the Realms, not because of the new editions rules...


Enough time has passed that we know what the future holds, at least in some respects. The Sundering is their answer to what has gone before.

What we know:

*There will be a complete geographical reset by Ao back to the Old Grey Box-era configuration. I may have the era slightly wrong, but all the big changes wrought by the Sellplague/time jump are going bye-bye, such as Returned Abeir, Tymanther, and Akanul.

*There will be no reboot - what has come before will not be erased, but the timeline will continue forward.

*Many of the old gods are coming back. With a couple of definite exceptions, one person's guess as to which ones in as good as anyone else's.

Most other details are under wraps. I may have left a few released details out (unintentionally), but what we have learned has made me cautiously optimistic. I am one of the biggest grognards amongst all grognards, but I've set aside the funds for this purchase...if I didn't think I had a good chance of being impressed with the effort, I wouldn't have done that. I'm willing to give it the chance it's asking for.

- OMH
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34941 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  15:10:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I mentioned before, Ed told me -- personally, in an email, and entirely unprompted -- that he was excited about what was coming. That's good enough for me.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1427 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  17:04:57  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't wait until 5E drops. Definitely curious as to how things are going to play out. :)
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2233 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  17:55:53  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IDK if this is what it means, but if the question is would I like to see the Forgotten Realms rebooted to say, 1300-1360 DR the answer is a resounding yes. The biggest reason is its an instant restoration of the best rpg setting and richest NPCs ever created.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2233 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  18:09:00  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
I left because of the 4e changes to the Realms, not because of the new editions rules...


Enough time has passed that we know what the future holds, at least in some respects. The Sundering is their answer to what has gone before.

What we know:

*There will be a complete geographical reset by Ao back to the Old Grey Box-era configuration. I may have the era slightly wrong, but all the big changes wrought by the Sellplague/time jump are going bye-bye, such as Returned Abeir, Tymanther, and Akanul.

*There will be no reboot - what has come before will not be erased, but the timeline will continue forward.

*Many of the old gods are coming back. With a couple of definite exceptions, one person's guess as to which ones in as good as anyone else's.

Most other details are under wraps. I may have left a few released details out (unintentionally), but what we have learned has made me cautiously optimistic. I am one of the biggest grognards amongst all grognards, but I've set aside the funds for this purchase...if I didn't think I had a good chance of being impressed with the effort, I wouldn't have done that. I'm willing to give it the chance it's asking for.

- OMH



I'm very much in favor of restoring the old gray box realms and the geography of the FR atlas.

I'm also a huge fan of the restoration of the gods.

However, I don't think that fixes things enough... the biggest problem that 4th E had was that in an instant the hundreds, if not thousands of rich characters were wiped out. From a writer's perspective this might not be all that bad, but from the perspective of someone who is not great at making game characters feel "real" it was a terrible loss.

I don't know if I'd reset to before the time of troubles as one or two suggested. I think that would be over-reaching. But I'd definitely go back to pre-spell plague. To those few who enjoyed those novels so much that it really bothers you I'd say it should not be too hard to keep what you liked without the spellplague. Or if you really like the spellplague you could simply make it a local phenomenon, not unlike wild magic areas, or maybe wild magic areas gone amok.
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
144 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  19:51:51  Show Profile Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It doesn't really matter what they do to their version of the Realms. My players no longer live there. Their timeline diverged at the death of King Azoun IV, which they prevented. They went on to save several other of the major characters, rebuild Castle Dragonspear, kill Hobarth three times and then throw him into the Fountain of Nepenthe while he was trying to resurrect Bha'al, turn the Fountain of Nepenthe into one of the holiest sites of the church of Mystra, and establish a school of wizardry which specializes in Abjuration. One of the player characters (Erystalben Majarra) even became a Magister, then retired from adventuring to serve under Azuth as the god of abjurers.

Why would I want to erase all that, just because somebody who isn't Ed Greenwood wants to completely change the Realms? To me, the Gray Box, post Time of Troubles, is definately the era to be in. Many people posting in this thread seem to agree, or to have other old eras they prefer.

I do understand that somebody at WotC decided that there was too much rampant magic in the Realms, but that's why we choose to play in that world. WotC should respect that and give us the magical world that Greenwood created. If you want a world of mostly fighters and rogues, you can always play one of the other D&D worlds.

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.
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