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Venger
Learned Scribe

USA
268 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  14:06:21  Show Profile Send Venger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry for the confusion. I was replying to this post.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
People today are not interested in shining knights and noble paladins, morally ambiguous characters are more popular. Look at Games of Thrones or even Erevis Cale.
quote:
Comparing the Spellplague Realms to Game of Thrones is an insult to Game of Thrones.
quote:
This is your personal point of view but as someone who loves goth Game of thrones and the realms i could not disagree with you more. Like it or not there have been many plus points to 4e as well and while i agree that many mistakes were made in 4e, sweeping it all underneath the carpet is not the way forward.
An interesting bit of debate. People are attracted to flawed, dark, ambiguous, "broken" characters - the pure and unambiguous hero is no longer believable or interesting.

Yet people cannot accept the same for the setting around the hero? A magical kingdom full of Disney castles and fairies seems as dull to me as the shining paladins who inhabit it. The Realms has been burned, scarred, given a dose of poison - and it hasn't died, it has the opportunity to come back stronger and "grittier" than before.


"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power."
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4096 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  14:09:37  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Many thanks. ;-)

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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snotereceorlas
Acolyte

United Kingdom
4 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  15:07:59  Show Profile Send snotereceorlas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, oh, I know. The answer is contained in a novel I am writing.

In fact, I’ve been mulling over how to get in contact with Ed Greenwood and my fellow Realms fans about it. If the idea gets aired here, then perhaps I can achieve both aims at one and the same time.

The tale in question started life as an FR story set in the 3.5 Realms. Then a new child came. Then 4e came.
So, a new story was begun with the same core characters. But I was having a hard time ‘translating' these characters (and their classes) to make them act like 4e characters (I like rogues and clerics of 3.5 and below).
Then i thought, 'What if the characters themselves are having a hard time coping with the transitions that the Spellplague brought about?' I could depict them struggling in the way i did – only they are doing it in the real D&D world! This kind of thought I’m sure is common to many who love the Realms, but in my case it gave an additional drive to the story. And what if the first story is now history and affects the present tale?
The novel is a serious proposition, and I am aware this is a big claim. I believe the novel can live up to it. As far as my own credentials go, I have translated many books destined for the commercial market from Italian to English in addition to other things, so I’m not a complete joker.
I intend to send the book to wizards. But I’d really, really, really rather Ed and my FR peers looked at it first.

Now we are about half way through this post we come to a technical matter about the plot.

The big question: does the novel provide the solution (I’ll outline this and more in the ‘open letter’ I’m thinking about sending to Ed and everyone, which is just a post on these forums) or only a part of it? Simply I want to be part of the solution to get our beloved FR back. Don’t really mind what the role is. Playing the game and reading the fiction with equal intensity are my special thing.

Finally, another point which I’m only going to raise because this is my first post. If I were to read it from someone else, I would ask ‘Who is this person?’ So, a word about my FR credentials. I’ve been solid since 1998. In September of that year I decided two things: Tolkein was my favourite author and the ‘other hands’ carrying on his work (though it is totally their own work now, of course) were those involved in AD&D in general very much the Realms in particular. The Realms as we know has a depth that does make it historical in the best sense. It’s the contributions of many, many people who have given it the flavour and all the other things we like about it. We also know many D&D players do not want this (the only other player in my town I know of is baffled by my focus on the Realms).

So, what is it all about…

More to come.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3566 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  16:22:50  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Hope you didn't put too much effort into that, because WotC does not care about and read as a result submitted materials they they didn't specify and put out an open call for.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  16:38:03  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

One of my favorites is the hidden Eye Tyrant Realm under or by Cormyr, or what is left of it anyways.

I wonder if there is any connection between them and the Eye Tyrants of Zhentil Keep...
I wondered that too, but from the angle of how they feel about Manshoon enslaving their kind all the time.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34941 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  17:52:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Hope you didn't put too much effort into that, because WotC does not care about and read as a result submitted materials they they didn't specify and put out an open call for.



Indeed. Many published writers won't read unpublished work from aspiring authors, and WotC doesn't accept unsolicited manuscripts. It's far better to establish your writing chops by getting a publication history going elsewhere, and then you can either let WotC come to you or wait for one of their rather infrequent open calls.

Not trying to discourage you, just trying to make sure your expectations are realistic.

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34941 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  17:54:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

One of my favorites is the hidden Eye Tyrant Realm under or by Cormyr, or what is left of it anyways.

I wonder if there is any connection between them and the Eye Tyrants of Zhentil Keep...
I wondered that too, but from the angle of how they feel about Manshoon enslaving their kind all the time.



I didn't think he was enslaving them, so much as he was making his own deals with them... I seem to recall a scene in Spellfire where even Manny was surprised by beholder actions.

Besides which, I should think it difficult for a spellslinger to enslave someone who could negate their magic. Obviously, it can be done, but it wouldn't be easy.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3566 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  18:01:06  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Unsolicited, that's the word.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  18:23:00  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I didn't think he was enslaving them, so much as he was making his own deals with them... I seem to recall a scene in Spellfire where even Manny was surprised by beholder actions.
I was thinking about the beholders and beholder-kin Manshoon was controlling while he was up to no good in Cormyr (as depicted in the Elminster Must Die and Burry Elminster Deep books). At one point a beholder breaks free (temporarily) from Manshoon’s control and practically begs those around it to free it from Manshoon’s magical leash.

Makes me wonder where he got his supply of beholders from and how he knew where to look. Did the old Eye Tyrants teach him beholder lore or did he already know about the Xraunrar?

If WotC does do a full Realms reboot, I want them to focus some attention on beholders and beholder nations in the Realms.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
917 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  18:33:51  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by snotereceorlas

Snip...



WotC will not accept any unsolicited material. In fact, they will throw it away as soon as possible (as will any other publishing organization). There is a big, big liability in reading an unsolicited piece of work. In order to curb any possible issues, they won't even entertain the idea. If they did, and later someone (like me) had a story published that was even remotely like yours, you could sue the pants off of them. This is something no publishing company wants.

I recommend you head over to WotC's novel department and read everything they have available on the topic of submissions. You're find that you may need to approach all of this from a different angle.

Finally: Don't read into this as a road-block. If you want to get a book published through them, you need to know what your working parameters are. Authors (Ed) and publishers get bombarded by a million people who believe their book is the next NY Times best seller.
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
917 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  18:35:13  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...edit to add. Unless you are a well-established novelist, don't expect WotC to pick up any new authors. This is more in relation to the current state of publishing, and less about WotC.
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Venger
Learned Scribe

USA
268 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  18:42:33  Show Profile Send Venger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, I think he's just being a screwball and isn't being serious.

"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power."
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
917 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  18:46:24  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Venger

Honestly, I think he's just being a screwball and isn't being serious.



Maybe, but how would I know? I was just giving out a friendly push in the right direction. As best as I can tell, his name is Andrew Tullock, and he is active on the D&D next forum. He also appears to play Flames of War ;)
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Varl
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  19:06:52  Show Profile Send Varl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
WotC will not accept any unsolicited material. In fact, they will throw it away as soon as possible (as will any other publishing organization).


This sounds like an incredibly tough business to break into then, if no publishing organizations will accept unsolicited material due to liabilities. I guess that's why I'm a gamer and not a writer.

"Intimidation is a weapon of the Legion. Intelligence is not." -Illidan Stormrage
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1427 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  20:39:32  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm starting to think that trying to appeal to the 'old fans' (pre-4e) - like a lot of us are - might be a VERY bad idea. If they do have an established new fanbase with 4e, then I doubt 5e will make very many 'old fans' happy regardless, and all it will do is alienate the new fans, bringing FR to a close.

I say this because I am now of the mind that without a reboot, old fans will never be happy. The ones that don't care how much they spend on new material have already found a new playground. I just don't think they are going to get those people back (I think it is very possible to do so, but I don't think they have the determination to do ALL that it will take).

Maybe its already over, and we are like Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense.



I'm starting to think this too. I don't mean to insult anyone with this, but the whole 4E vs 5E thing reminds me of my kids fighting over a toy. And in my experience if they don't SHARE, then nobody gets to play.

Personally, I'd rather have a Realms, warts and all, then no Realms at all. Nostalgia is a powerful motivator, heck all of my favorite memories are from the 2E days, but I want a living breathing world that changes and doesn't become stagnant. Did I like 4E? No, I absolutely hated it for the most part, but it did stir the poop pot and give me new things to read and learn.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is: Fans of all editions need to be willing to come to the table and make compromises. It's how win-win negotiation works. Nobody will get everything they want, but if you're willing to work with the other party, both sides should get SOMETHING they want.

If you can't come to the table and share the Realms with others, good and bad, I don't even know why a person would be interested in the Realms anyway. Such behavior goes against everything the shared world stands for.

Again I don't mean to insult anyone with any of this. I just think fans of all editions should work together and support the Realms going forward. If you don't like something about the Realms, chime in and offer specific solutions. I don't know if designers will use suggestions, but maybe we can give them a sounding board on trouble areas to focus on.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  20:57:14  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Again I don't mean to insult anyone with any of this. I just think fans of all editions should work together and support the Realms going forward. If you don't like something about the Realms, chime in and offer specific solutions.
I am not insulted by this. (I don't think any reasonable person could be offended by it.)

I'm very happy you had the courage to step forward and say it.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 21 Jun 2012 21:00:13
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3478 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  21:14:15  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, as much I dislike the 4e Realms and deem the choice WotC has made in their regards years ago disrespectful towards older customers, I can come to a compromise if that means that I'll get to enjoy the setting again. But, ofc, both pre and post plague Realms fan should do so.
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  00:31:05  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd prefer a gradual slide into a Realms more like the older ones instead of a straight retcon.

"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  01:34:46  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

One of my favorites is the hidden Eye Tyrant Realm under or by Cormyr, or what is left of it anyways.

I wonder if there is any connection between them and the Eye Tyrants of Zhentil Keep...
I wondered that too, but from the angle of how they feel about Manshoon enslaving their kind all the time.



I didn't think he was enslaving them, so much as he was making his own deals with them... I seem to recall a scene in Spellfire where even Manny was surprised by beholder actions.

Besides which, I should think it difficult for a spellslinger to enslave someone who could negate their magic. Obviously, it can be done, but it wouldn't be easy.

And let's not forget the "So High A Price" tale from Realms of Infamy. It was made pretty clear, even in that early stage of Manshoon's relationship with his beholder allies... just "who" was calling the shots.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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lowtech
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  11:48:08  Show Profile  Visit lowtech's Homepage Send lowtech a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm starting to think that trying to appeal to the 'old fans' (pre-4e) - like a lot of us are - might be a VERY bad idea. If they do have an established new fanbase with 4e, then I doubt 5e will make very many 'old fans' happy regardless, and all it will do is alienate the new fans, bringing FR to a close.



Alternative timelines with equal or market-driven support wouldn't alienate anyone....what WOTC would be concerned about is competing against themselves, the suits being concerned (legitimately) about the uncertainties of high-risk, high-reward marketing strategies, and the developers, I suspect, because they simply don't want to do anything with the pre-Spellplague Realms anymore, and are afraid that fan demand may force them to do so if the consumers were allowed to vote with their pocketbooks.
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
313 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  12:02:58  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

And that’s the key point I think people are overlooking: the advancement of a century in the Realms is by far a greater force of change then the Spellplague. When I read through these forums, I don’t think enough attention is being given to whether something is a Spellplague-driven change or a time-driven change.


The changes over the century seemed to have hit non-evil aligned nations pretty hard while conveniently missing their evil leaning counter parts. IMO the changes are all very contrived and rather blatantly intended to make FR significantly closer to a PoL setting.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I want less overt organizations—ones that don’t have Realms-wide influence and aren’t like a fantasy version of the Legion of Doom, I want dungeons and adventures that are smaller scale and encourage/require gamers to know a little something about the world their characters are in (this encourages roleplaying and player buy-in to the setting).


My intention is not just to be disagreeable here. However, I liked the individuals (admittedly they were pretty much all archmages) and organizations with "world" ranging schemes. I used those organizations schemes as subplots often. That was actually one of my larger complaints about the 4e realms. I understand that designers didn't like the old organizations, but they couldn't even come up with their own organizations? Also, most of the organizations were only active highly novelized sections of FR. The South did not receive much attention from any of the movers and shakers. I knew a few groups that didn't like the novel stuff and based campaigns there, which is no necessary because a group can always ignore what they don't like.

Tarlyn Embersun

Edited by - Tarlyn on 22 Jun 2012 12:06:42
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
313 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  12:04:50  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
the developers, I suspect, because they simply don't want to do anything with the pre-Spellplague Realms anymore, and are afraid that fan demand may force them to do so if the consumers were allowed to vote with their pocketbooks.


+1 That has been my general feelings as well.

Tarlyn Embersun

Edited by - Tarlyn on 22 Jun 2012 12:05:37
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  12:32:16  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

a compromise

I want all the deities back and no more this deity was really that deity...(this does incldue Helm, Mystra,MAsk, Eilistraee)

I want a new color scheme for the 5e fr map, no more vomit colors.

I also want every trace of POL(Points of Light) removed.
Restore Halruua in some potent form whether its in some long forgotten flying city or they foresaw Mystra's return and time traveled foward to that time( just becuase the rule ofr that spell forbids pcs from going foawrd does not mean as a plot device that a huge group of npcs cant do so)
return the roll of year section in the FRcampaign books
I would love to see the spell plague removed from the lore comepletely, but highly consider my wants on the to be considered list and I'll ber fine with plague staying. ATleast then there would be a chance of atleast some of them being in 5e realms.




To be perfectly honest even I was not enthused by the whole Talos is Grummsh thing or the diminishment of the elven pantheon and felt that too many Gods were killed needlessly. But it looks like many will be revived certainly Mystra and helm seems to be likely to be resurrected soon. but bringing them all back seems a bit unrealistic , I think the likes of Tyr and Lathander are gone for good and their replacements are doing a good enough job.
The spell plague is now a part of the realms at most its effects will be mitigated but not entirely eradicated. Other than that I for one would be glad to see the changes you have suggested.
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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
169 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  15:45:04  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, the Spellplague trash, is about the most unwelcome thing they could have pulled on us FR fans. It was SO UNNECESSARY for them to kill so much of what the FR fans loved. And personally it has alienated me significantly from FR. I don't see 4E Realms as the legitimate Realms, and many others do neither.

I seriously hope for a complete reboot. I wanted to see an expansion of the Realms, in terms of detail and scope, not a reduction which is basically what 4E is. Destruction of many countries and deities.

FR fans shouldn't need to compromise with people who bastardize the setting. The people who made the mistake are at the fault, not the fans. It is WotC who have the obligation to correct their mistakes.

Seriously, I don't see how FR is going to have a bright future without some serious editing.

I'm personally not going to buy any WotC products at all until they fix the Realms, and I hope I'm not alone in this. I'll rather stick with the Pathfinder books.

It's shameful that WotC can get away with destroying a beloved fantasy setting.

Edited by - deserk on 22 Jun 2012 15:52:24
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
917 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  16:30:20  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So you're view on the Realms is more important than some kid that started reading the books these past couple of years? I don't understand why is has to be an all-or-nothing approach.

quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Honestly, the Spellplague trash, is about the most unwelcome thing they could have pulled on us FR fans. It was SO UNNECESSARY for them to kill so much of what the FR fans loved. And personally it has alienated me significantly from FR. I don't see 4E Realms as the legitimate Realms, and many others do neither.

I seriously hope for a complete reboot. I wanted to see an expansion of the Realms, in terms of detail and scope, not a reduction which is basically what 4E is. Destruction of many countries and deities.

FR fans shouldn't need to compromise with people who bastardize the setting. The people who made the mistake are at the fault, not the fans. It is WotC who have the obligation to correct their mistakes.

Seriously, I don't see how FR is going to have a bright future without some serious editing.

I'm personally not going to buy any WotC products at all until they fix the Realms, and I hope I'm not alone in this. I'll rather stick with the Pathfinder books.

It's shameful that WotC can get away with destroying a beloved fantasy setting.

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