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 Reboot of the Realms for 5th edition.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  04:29:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hte FR?

You can use any rules with any setting (I used 3 different sets of rules in Greyhawk.... BEFORE I started playing AD&D). You can even use 4e in Golarion (although I haven't heard of anyone doing so).

But what they propose is releasing setting books that are rules-independent, which makes it far easier to do that. Flying Buffalo put out a line of products like that (their Citybooks, which I found excellent, and used a LOT). In fact, they should BUY FB and use their system (it scaled to any game), and their fluff was excellent. They could also take a lesson (for the core starter set) from Tunnels & Trolls, The system completely breaks-down at higher levels, but for just playing a game with first-time players straight out of the box, it can't be beat.

So now I want them to buy Nyambe and Flying Buffalo - my wish list is really entering the Twilight Zone.

Anyhow, we still have no idea how they will "keep your chocolate out of my peanut butter", but that is their plan, and from what I've seen, they seem to be really catering to what us fans want. I don't want anyone to make a decision now - all I ask is that we 'wait and see'.

For the 4e fans here, I can understand their trepidation, but for us pre-plague FR lovers, there is nowhere to go but up.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
313 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  05:05:54  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@SFDragon: Yes. I've done it. but the conversion isnt an "easy, on the fly" thing as much as I'd like. Additionally, its all out of print. Theyre not releasing new non-spellplague materials (and I refuse to accept spellplague realms as the same setting, it just isn't).

@Markus: There's a guy who has a site for all the Pathfinder AP > 4e Conversions he uses in his home games. so theres at least the one guy who does it.

System-neutral Campaign Settings would be awesome. Alot easier to use. It would likely require more writing than wotc designers are used to (and less game design) - but I'd get books I could get alot more use out of if they did it right.

I agree with Mark though: As someone whose favorite setting ceased to be when 4e was released, either things stay the same, or they get better. I'm not spending my money on Shattered Realms now. Worst case scenario, I continue to not buy any WotC Campaign settings stuff.

But if they dont have a campaign setting I want to play in; and 5e turns out to not be *infinitely better than 3e and 4e and pathfinder*, and is just "about as good as pathfinder", I have less incentive to switch. Because, well, why bother?

I might pick up the main rulebook as a curiosity - I do that for lots of RPG systems. But if its not supported with a setting I like, and the system doesnt please me alot more than pathfinder does (not impossible, I do have many gripes with Pathfinder as well, its far from perfect) the odds of me continually investing in their product line is slim.

A lack of digital copies of the books and reliance on a subscription service are -not- going to help.

But as Markus said: 'wait and see'.

Color me 'cautiously open minded'.
Step 1. Check out initial release. Ponder pros and cons of system.
Step 2. Check out settings: Ponder pros and cons of settings.
Step 3. Decide whether the system or settings are worth further investment.

With 4e my answer to step 3 was no. Hopefully this time around will be more like when 3e came out, and I'll like what I see.

I suppose its also entirely possible that I may buy into 5e and not buy any 'Realms material. In that case I'd be looking for dedicated support to a different setting. Like Ravenloft or Planescape.

Its worth noting that the huge fonts and oft-repeated maps in the 4e books mean I'm getting less content for my money, and it contributes to me feeling cheated. Hopefully they go back to regular font size, cut down on the huge amounts of white space, and dont reprint the maps so often. (Or drop the price of a hardcover to like $25).

Again, we'll see.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)

Edited by - Sylrae on 30 Jan 2012 05:19:56
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1427 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  05:42:58  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reboot of the Realms or not, I think given the chance, many of the designers can work towards fixing the post-spellplague image. I REALLY don't like 4E rules, but I'm not bothered so much by the changes, with the exception of the draconian kingdom being dropped into the southern realms. The whole Mulhorand/Unther area should have been a riff right out of dark fantasy of Conan the Barbarian. Go try a free trial of Age of Conan to get an idea what I mean. I never cared much for real world type areas, and I would guess that's why those areas never did well or received much coverage?

Even if the 5th edition rules aren't the greatest, Wotc has stated they intend to support all editions. So hopefully, we will see rules light supplements that we can all use in any edition or worlds we play.

I'm no purist and i freely jack ideas and hooks from any books that come my way that I like. I would HOPE, that WotC or someone in R&D has a subscription to Pathfinder. I said this in another thread, but I think if they took the design approach of their flagship products, the Adventure Paths, it would only help them. I like Golarion but not as much as the Realms and if the Realms did their products in a similar manner I'd be happier than a fat kid in a candy store. Their adventure paths have normal maps, not tactical grids, composing about 50 pages of adventure material and the other 50 or so pages of basically city backdrop articles and bestiaries for a few new unique monsters and other stuff. If you haven't tried one of their products, give it whirl...(I'm loving the Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull paths)and then imagine the same type of book with nothing but Forgotten Realms in it. The idea makes me giddy and I seriously hope WotC tries to emulate best practices...it is what businesses do to improve. You don't have to re-design a wheel, just do your business better than your competitors.

Paizo has stated this is their flagship product that makes them ALOT of money, so much in fact they can actually salary people to work on products as opposed to just freelance and I would guess that might have a big factor in quality of products. If the business executives aren't smart enough to design a working strategy, well they better go hire Michael Porter as a consultant, because some company will do it better, like Paizo.

Really, I guess we should all look at offering solutions to making the Realms better, not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's, but for all groups and future players too. Realistically we all are probably going to have to compromise on something when the 5th edition realms comes out. Chances are something's gonna pull our bum hairs, to quote Athrogate the dwarf. Frankly, from what I've seen of products and what we've been told of Ed's upcoming release this fall, future products are trending towards 2nd edition era lore heavy format. And that gives me hope that we're going to see a rebirth of sorts of those golden days.

And I'm not too worried about all the "bad" changes in the Realms we all rant about because Ed Greenwood probably has a dozen answers for every issue we have voiced and 20 more bouncing around in his head that not only fix the problem, but give us some great lore at the same time. And that's just one man. I'm not familiar with all the Realms designers, but we have many that post on these boards and I'm sure they are itching to do the same or are working with Ed and each other to streamline the 5E Realms.

There be my two copper. ;)
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7433 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  08:00:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Eilserus

... not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's ...
<ahem>

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".

[/Ayrik]
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  08:28:43  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Eilserus

... not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's ...
<ahem>

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".



Ah... someone my age. I've been playing (A)D&D in one form or another for over 25 years; I've blathered on about my gaming biography elsewhere, so I won't do so again here. Yeah, there are things I miss about the old days, when it took 15 minutes to create a character and you could run combat almost in real time, but 3.x fixed a number of things that were, while not "broken," definitely clunky rules: THAC0 and/or attack roll tables, old-style saving throws, and fighters who only make one or two effective attacks per minute of combat... and honestly, all of those changes can be made without adding skills, feats, etc., and you have a very nice basic-ruleset fantasy RPG. I think that's the kind of thing we'll see with the design of 5E, and I'm really looking forward to it. As far as the Realms, I'm loving the idea of seeing Ed's Realms, and hoping that we get more of that to follow; I suppose it amounts to a reboot, so I guess I'd have to say I am in favour of a reboot. There. Scroll back on topic.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
704 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  13:49:23  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Oh, I've never seen anyone supporting an alternate timeline as something that bad. Also, I don't really think I like the pro-Spellplague Realms due to any corporate say-so. I just like the approach better than in previous eras. See for me, I've happily played in the Forgotten Realms without putting any thought into areas that I ditest or NPCs that I don't like. Why? Because they don't interest me while a good portion of the setting does. So I ignore, downplay, evade, and dismiss those aspects. Have been doing so for years. So I think I am compromising when I say that I wish they put out more lore and ideas and flesh-out other aspects of the Realms (supporting ALL eras) and not just the one I like the most. It's been pro-4E for the last 3 years and were the to keep on that same mantra, I'd be very happy indeed. But I also realize that others won't, so I don't have a problem with supporint other times in the Realms too. Others, who want to destroy Canon (yes, it's happend...deal) won't give an inch except to shelve the Canon aspects they don't like as "alternate timelines" which they wistfully hope dies a slow, agonizing death in obscurity.



The problem is, WotC (or at least their superiors at Hasbro) decided that all the people on the message boards who weren't playing in the Realms and were vocal about why they didn't do so were the people who should be listened to. This violates basic business sense; it's easier to keep a customer than to regain a lost customer, and they should have expected to lose customers over the Spellplague. I didn't have the slightest problem with the Spellplague as it was presented in the Cormyr-Shadowdale-Anauroch supermodule trilogy, because it was something the PCs could stop. The fact that they published this trilogy, only to take matters out of the players' hands entirely and railroad the Spellplague through, is what irritates me, and it's the existence of these adventures (also canon) that I think justifies the existence of the alternate timelines (just 2: Spellplague as published, or no Spellplague/drastically reduced Spellplague; I've posted a couple of scenarios for the latter here in the early years of 4E). And for the record, yes, I think they should both be supported by future products; that will keep everybody happy except for those few militants on each side who aren't happy unless the other side isn't... and I think there are more of those in the pro-Spellplague camp than not, judging from the original reaction to the announcement of the changes in the 4E Realms on WotC's messageboards. And yes, I'm aware that one could reach the opposite conclusion looking at posts in CK from that same time period.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself, so I'll shut up, except to say that the reboot fans aren't the first to be accused of wanting something to die a slow, agonizing death in obscurity, and they may not be the last if some sort of parallel timeline scenario doesn't take shape. In any case, I consider myself to be a fan of the Realms, and I will retain that opinion until someone can prove to me that the Realms didn't exist before the Spellplague. (The paranoid part of me is sure that someone has attempted this feat of illogic somewhere; I find my surprises are much more pleasant when I listen to my paranoia.)



I agree with this. What they should have done was taken the Realms and created an almost split in the road. One direction would be if the Spellplague had happened and the other way would be if the Spellplague had been prevented.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
313 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  16:08:16  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowsoulI agree with this. What they should have done was taken the Realms and created an almost split in the road. One direction would be if the Spellplague had happened and the other way would be if the Spellplague had been prevented.



This is what I want for my 5e realms.

Then all the shattered realms can have their cake, without denying me mine.

Of course, this means I want to see Eladrin as Celestials, Tieflings as evil outsiders, I want the pre-spellplague map, and I want my 4-7 subraces of elves back.

If they fall short of that... Well, I'll read the book and decide whether I'm willing to support the 5e realms. And I might support that, and just refuse to call it forgotten realms. But if it's still not the realms anymore? no promises.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  16:54:50  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Eilserus

... not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's ...
<ahem>

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".


...I was in college in the mid-90s. Kids today don't appreciate the older generation, or what we did for D&D. I even helped run a D&D club in middle school, and before that I played Chainmail rules! And before that... we played real wargames on big flat boards with little markers and lead figures... *sigh*

You kids better get off my lawn! **shakes garden hose threateningly**


Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
486 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  19:58:52  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Eilserus

... not just for us, or old guard fogies like me who been reading this stuff since they were 15 in the mid 90's ...
<ahem>

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".

...I was in college in the mid-90s. Kids today don't appreciate the older generation, or what we did for D&D. I even helped run a D&D club in middle school, and before that I played Chainmail rules! And before that... we played real wargames on big flat boards with little markers and lead figures... *sigh*

You kids better get off my lawn! **shakes garden hose threateningly**



Pffft...yer all young'uns. I have a good five (estimated) years on Ayrik (20 in the mid-80's), and I remember looking at pictures of EGG back then and thinking 'Man...this guy's old'. Little did I know that would be me someday (hence the first word in my moniker here), and that was already playing OD&D beforehand.

I tried to set up a D&D club both in junior high and high school, but this was the era of Pat Pulling, and was flatly turned down every time I tried.

-squints at the young lady shaking her garden hose- Kids these days...
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  20:33:07  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The mid-90s - that's the young whippersnapper crowd. I was reading that stuff (and listening to Duran Duran) when I was 15 in the mid 80s, and I followed the Realms well before the FR0 Grey Box. Of course I was a punk compared to the even older fogies who'd been around D&D a decade before me, long before it was even called AD&D "1E".

...I was in college in the mid-90s. Kids today don't appreciate the older generation, or what we did for D&D. I even helped run a D&D club in middle school, and before that I played Chainmail rules! And before that... we played real wargames on big flat boards with little markers and lead figures... *sigh*

You kids better get off my lawn! **shakes garden hose threateningly**



Pffft...yer all young'uns. I have a good five (estimated) years on Ayrik (20 in the mid-80's), and I remember looking at pictures of EGG back then and thinking 'Man...this guy's old'. Little did I know that would be me someday (hence the first word in my moniker here), and that was already playing OD&D beforehand.

I tried to set up a D&D club both in junior high and high school, but this was the era of Pat Pulling, and was flatly turned down every time I tried.

-squints at the young lady shaking her garden hose- Kids these days...


My mid-school D&D club was around during the Patricia / BADD nonsense. Fortunately, I had the good fortune of having two teachers who knew better.

I suspect we're probably the same age, but thanks for calling me "young"... always makes me smile.


Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!

Edited by - Therise on 30 Jan 2012 20:33:53
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1427 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  20:38:25  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good old board gaming from days past. I remember a RISK game that took over 24 hours and we played nonstop. I should pick up a copy of that sometime, haven't played it in years. I also remember Heroes Quest another fun little game. Though, I think we made more use of the game board and accessories for detailing dungeon maps for our 2E campaign. :)

Edited by - Eilserus on 30 Jan 2012 20:39:27
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  20:45:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So Therise, you played all those intense (and overly complicated) SPI and Avalon Hill 'counters' games?

Man, I did so love my counters... I had dozens of those games. The only thing I still had from that era of my gaming was Diplomacy (which is also gone now, sadly).

Me and my buddy must have played Siege of Constantinople at least 30 times. The game was skewed so that it was impossible for Constantinople had to lose - you couldn't win, but you could try to 'do better' each time (your victory was dependent on how many turns you lasted). Kids today wouldn't even play a game like that - they'd fight over who got stuck being 'the losers'. But guess what? Constantinople was the far more interesting side to play. Back then we didn't always play to win, we played to have fun.

It was a simpler time {sigh}

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jan 2012 20:45:43
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2012 :  04:58:07  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So Therise, you played all those intense (and overly complicated) SPI and Avalon Hill 'counters' games?

Back in the day, I was completely addicted to the WWII ones. I couldn't tell you which companies, though, my memory isn't quite that good. Somewhere in the house, I still have little miniature Panzer tanks (with lots of lead and pot-metal, so they bent!) and a big box of a ton-load of those mini-games (with chits you had to scissor up) that they used to sell for $2.95 in small plastic cases. Remember that? FUN for a mere $2.95. I loved those, each with their own little theme. I even remember one (from an old Dragon magazine, I think, called "Snit's Revenge"), it was one of the cutest.

But also things like Galactic Conquest, I liked that a lot. All those eventually led into us doing Chainmail and then D&D. Seems like I have an original boxed basic game with the dice and all, locked away in some box.

quote:
Man, I did so love my counters... I had dozens of those games. The only thing I still had from that era of my gaming was Diplomacy (which is also gone now, sadly).

Well, sadly and ironically I think it was TSR that ended up killing the classic wargames. Didn't they buy SSI or one of the other major companies, and it all seemed to totally dry up after that?

quote:
Me and my buddy must have played Siege of Constantinople at least 30 times. The game was skewed so that it was impossible for Constantinople had to lose - you couldn't win, but you could try to 'do better' each time (your victory was dependent on how many turns you lasted). Kids today wouldn't even play a game like that - they'd fight over who got stuck being 'the losers'. But guess what? Constantinople was the far more interesting side to play. Back then we didn't always play to win, we played to have fun.

It was a simpler time {sigh}


Heh, yep... really good times. *sigh*


Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!

Edited by - Therise on 31 Jan 2012 04:59:17
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer

USA
300 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  08:52:21  Show Profile  Visit JamesLowder's Homepage Send JamesLowder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The active Candlekeep scribes whom I consider affiliated with WotC are Matt and Brian James, Steven Schend, James Lowder, and of course Ed (via proxy). Erik, Elaine, PSK, RLB, and many others are more loosely affiliated. I consider them all privy to "inside" proprietary NDA secrets, though of course my list is far from complete or accurate and WotC employees have recently been coming and going a bit faster than I can follow.


Haven't been to the Keep for a while, so I just saw this.

Just so it's clear: I'm not affiliated with WotC in any way, beyond whatever work I did for TSR and Wizards in the past. I haven't worked for the company for quite a few years.

In fact, most of the people you listed are not privy to inside information about the Realms or anything else having to do with 5E, beyond what they are working on individually for the company. If they don't have a current project, they're likely completely out of the loop on the Realms and everything else. Sure, we may hear rumors and, if we know people working on the current incarnation, we might hear other snippets, but the company as a whole does not share information with former and, in a lot of cases, current freelancers. In fact, freelancers frequently find out about reprints and other uses of our own books at the same time the public does.

The only people who can speak to what's going on in Renton, as far as official plans and the like, are the company reps.

Edited by - JamesLowder on 18 Mar 2012 09:01:16
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  16:21:34  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JamesLowder

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The active Candlekeep scribes whom I consider affiliated with WotC are Matt and Brian James, Steven Schend, James Lowder, and of course Ed (via proxy). Erik, Elaine, PSK, RLB, and many others are more loosely affiliated. I consider them all privy to "inside" proprietary NDA secrets, though of course my list is far from complete or accurate and WotC employees have recently been coming and going a bit faster than I can follow.


Haven't been to the Keep for a while, so I just saw this.
Just so it's clear: I'm not affiliated with WotC in any way, beyond whatever work I did for TSR and Wizards in the past. I haven't worked for the company for quite a few years.
In fact, most of the people you listed are not privy to inside information about the Realms or anything else having to do with 5E, beyond what they are working on individually for the company. If they don't have a current project, they're likely completely out of the loop on the Realms and everything else. Sure, we may hear rumors and, if we know people working on the current incarnation, we might hear other snippets, but the company as a whole does not share information with former and, in a lot of cases, current freelancers. In fact, freelancers frequently find out about reprints and other uses of our own books at the same time the public does.
The only people who can speak to what's going on in Renton, as far as official plans and the like, are the company reps.
What James said!

Speaking only for myself (never for anyone else), I am not "on the inside" and am not in any way official. I'm just a fan, and I occasionally have the honor/duty of contributing directly to canon Realmslore. The folks at WotC are the ones who can make the decisions, and they are whom you should query with your thoughts, ideas, and appeals.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  18:22:00  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I myself feel like a reboot to one particular era is the same as trying to force everyone to play in 4e. What I'd like to see is era-neutral design that allows you to play wherever, whenever you want. What might be a future in one Realms isn't necessarily the future in yours--if anything, it just gives you a good sense of what events to avoid. Don't like the Spellplague? Let your pcs avert it, do it differently with different gods, or ignore it entirely. The designers should not be in the habit of dictating where you "have to play," but rather providing tools for multiple eras where you "could play," and then you get to choose.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
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Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  20:38:25  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I myself feel like a reboot to one particular era is the same as trying to force everyone to play in 4e. What I'd like to see is era-neutral design that allows you to play wherever, whenever you want. What might be a future in one Realms isn't necessarily the future in yours--if anything, it just gives you a good sense of what events to avoid. Don't like the Spellplague? Let your pcs avert it, do it differently with different gods, or ignore it entirely. The designers should not be in the habit of dictating where you "have to play," but rather providing tools for multiple eras where you "could play," and then you get to choose.

Cheers



But would material retconned into the Realms with 4e be included in 5e details on previous eras of the Realms? That's the kicker there I think. I'd love to see multiple eras supported, but it misses the point IMO if I see Primordials and other bits of 4e mythology creeping into the material. There's not easy way to handle this without disappointing something, which is unfortunate.

Personally I want to play 3e era FR within the framework of the Great Wheel cosmology, but unless I'm the luckiest sucker on the face of the planet, I'm not sure that's going to be in the cards. But it's my birthday tommorow, so maybe I'll be lucky and tommorow someone with WotC decides to go that direction in material we'll see once 5e rolls out. ;)

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1861 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2012 :  20:58:51  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy

But would material retconned into the Realms with 4e be included in 5e details on previous eras of the Realms? That's the kicker there I think. I'd love to see multiple eras supported, but it misses the point IMO if I see Primordials and other bits of 4e mythology creeping into the material. There's not easy way to handle this without disappointing something, which is unfortunate.


While there are some minor points where a designer or writer clearly wasn't familiar enough with older lore and flat-out ignores or contradicts established canon, these have existed in all editions. And my view of them is the same for all. If it is utterly impossible to reconcile them so that both are true, it is, in my opinion, better to officially pick the one that is more consistent with the world as a whole and to provid an explanation of why a given statement is being overruled than it is to be bound by an ill-considered statement simply because it's newer.

On the other hand, Primordials cannot properly be called a ret-con, as the powers of the Realms have always been of many origins and natures and it has always been established that in eras past, there were among them many wars and upheavals.

The fact that Primordials hadn't been named, classified or statted in published Realmslore before does not mean that adding information about their wars with deities in the mythic past invalidates any prior canon, which is one of the primary characteristics something must fulfil before it can legitimately fall under the term 'ret-con'. If the prior continuity still applies, but you've simply added a new set of myths and legends on to them, what you have isn't a ret-con, it's just new lore.

I've said before that this lore can be liked or disliked on its own merits. Clearly, there are those who dislike it. Speaking, however, as someone who didn't feel that 4e D&D provided sufficient value for me as a customer, I do feel that disliking lore is not enough to arbitrarily ret-con it out of existence.

As a GM, I can and do just that. The existence or non-existence of Primordials, should they offend a gaming group, has essentially no impact on a game set in Eveningstar in 1357 DR. But I prefer to leave the picking-and-choosing of setting elements for the customer, whereas the official designers ought to be making sure that all prior lore is taken into account and the world is coherent and consistent.

Sometimes consistency might demand that certain lore is set aside. For example, if three sources about a given nation have them speaking three different languages, it will prove difficult to say that they are all right. To some extent, one might say that one language is the official one, another is the most common one among the urban population and the third is an older language, common with farmers, shepherds and old-fashioned rural nobility, but that kind of fix often dances perilously close to invalidating at least one of the prior canon statements and is not always practisable.

In those extreme cases, as noted earlier, I'd rather have the designers invalidate whichever source seems least plausible and least consistent with other information about the setting. If they can do so with an in-universe justification establishing the prior canon as mistaken scholarship, even better.

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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe

Canada
137 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2012 :  03:21:11  Show Profile Send Nilus Reynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I think a reboot of the Realms would be good.

Nilus Reynard
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2012 :  04:45:57  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My "One Canon, One Story, One Realms" and "Create Realmslore: A Contest" threads have lots more information on reconciling the lore, but generally, I don't think 4e introduced any significant lore that affects previous Realmslore.

Yes, we didn't hear about primordials until 4e, but also they didn't appear until 4e. Until the Spellplague, they were all sealed away in another world (Abeir), which only touched Toril again in 1385. One can speculate that exceptions existed beforehand--I personally suspect that Moander might be more a primordial than a god--but IMO the Dawn War cosmology does not affect 3e lore in any significant way.

On the larger question of cosmology (Great Wheel, 3e cluster of planes, etc): The D&D cosmology and the Realms cosmology (and that of any mortal world setting) have never aligned properly, and I see no reason to make that the case in 5e. We have a new cosmology with every edition, and while they have definite similarities, they don't line up either. I see no reason to change the Realms to fit with any particular cosmology--the cosmology of the Realms should be based on the Realms, which it always has been (in 3e and 4e particularly), rather than on some kind of core D&D cosmology.

I largely feel that ALL cosmological views are true--from a certain point of view. Yes, there are certain planes that definitely exist, and there are different planar entities that dwell there, but the connections between all of them are only poorly understood by mortals on many different worlds. And so we mortals make up all kind of different analogies and metaphors to describe the cosmos, all of which are true--from a certain point of view. With this paradigm, you can go forward with any cosmology you see fit.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2012 :  05:22:41  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No. Not because I like or don't like what's been done with the setting since the Old Grey Box was published, but because I can't help but feel that a reboot would, however the reasons for it are phrased, be implicitly insulting to anyone who's worked on fleshing out the Realms since then.

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34941 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2012 :  09:46:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

On the larger question of cosmology (Great Wheel, 3e cluster of planes, etc): The D&D cosmology and the Realms cosmology (and that of any mortal world setting) have never aligned properly, and I see no reason to make that the case in 5e.


They lined up fine in 2E, which is where the bulk of our planar lore comes from...

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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
313 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2012 :  19:26:10  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Split timeline is a win for everyone, you get support and have a future full of interesting possibilites. Although, I would not oppose a reboot. Reboots already happened in both Krynn and Darksun with varying degrees of success.

Tarlyn Embersun
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3119 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2012 :  20:15:57  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn

Split timeline is a win for everyone, you get support and have a future full of interesting possibilites. Although, I would not oppose a reboot. Reboots already happened in both Krynn and Darksun with varying degrees of success.




What exactly did they do with Darksun?

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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
313 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2012 :  20:55:36  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darksun had a series written by Troy Denning called the Prism Pentad. Most of the sorcerer kings and the dragon were killed in the series. Plus several other world changing events occurred. It is a great read with interesting characters, but it dramatically alters Darksun and resolves a lot of the conflict that drives interesting adventuring ideas.

So, 4e Darksun takes place after the first book, in which a single free city is established and the rest of the series was ruled non-canon.

Tarlyn Embersun

Edited by - Tarlyn on 19 Mar 2012 21:01:02
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