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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 20:27:56
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Hi... I had a discusion with one off my friends regarding magic in FR.
Wizards study to lean new magic, but are they actually doing something new? Are they devoloping, making the weave contort in new ways, or are they simply opening small boxes where every possible thing by forhand have been put.??
Does Mystra know "every" secret of magic? Can she be surprised by a very skilled wizard, or have all the spells which are possible to create already been created, and are now just waiting for some wizard to discover them, through research?
I find this an interesting thought, because even thou I would like to think that you can keep discovering new things in the weave, I am partial to believing that the weave and magic en generel have an end result. Some more or less factual truth, and that "we" mortals just try to uncover.
And if this is true, then one could learn everything there is to know, and then what?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 20:46:07
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I would say that no, Mystra doesn't know everything...nor does Azuth or all the gods combined.
Imagination is without bounds, so that which is boundless can't be defined...and thus would have no end.
Now, I'm sure there are basic principles that all magic is founded on; but even to these there are possibly endless variations, additions, substitutions...
Now, for if everything can be known, then by default magic would have an end; but, as I've said...I don't see how there can be an end to something that is without end in possible variety. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 21:28:51
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| To me the raw magic seems infinite, by discovering new ways to tap that power spellcasters make the Weave grow. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2011 : 23:38:46
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Te Weave was always the easy way to access magic, the Realms always had other magics - just harder to learn or mater.
Not counting the unnamed magics, there have been, name magic, totem magic, rune magic, herb magic. I would need to look further for other named magics that did not use the Weave. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 00:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Not counting the unnamed magics, there have been, name magic, totem magic, rune magic, herb magic. I would need to look further for other named magics that did not use the Weave.
See also Halruaan Table Magic, and the Pluma and Hishna magic systems of Maztica, all three of which fall under the banner of "non-Weave magic". |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 10:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would say that no, Mystra doesn't know everything...nor does Azuth or all the gods combined.
Imagination is without bounds, so that which is boundless can't be defined...and thus would have no end.
Now, I'm sure there are basic principles that all magic is founded on; but even to these there are possibly endless variations, additions, substitutions...
Now, for if everything can be known, then by default magic would have an end; but, as I've said...I don't see how there can be an end to something that is without end in possible variety.
Well said.
Putting an end to magic means putting an end to creativity, killing countless potentials. So, NO; there is no and should never be an end to magic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 11:59:33
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It might be possible for science to "reach an end", there must be a point of true omniscience where everything that was, is, and might be is completely known.
I doubt this applies to magic in the Realms, because it seems much more like a natural force. Nature knows no end and no bounds because nature has no goals beyond the immediate. Magic in the Realms will constantly evolve and adapt in symbiosis with magic-users.
If you have any expectation that the divine powers of the Realms have the inspiration, patience, and foresight to implement some mysterious ultimate Design and Purpose into magic then you're sadly mistaken. The gods of the Realms most especially the Thrice-Murdered Goddess of Magic are incapable of anything so grandly cosmic, indeed, are hardly what I'd even call competent.
Note that there are "post-apocalyptic" D&D settings (like the world of Athas) which have been perverted, destroyed, and depleted by abuse of magic exactly the same conditions which created the Desert Anauroch in Faerūn. This seems to demonstrate that magic can be "killed" or "polluted" like any other organic system or natural resource. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2011 : 12:33:21
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Invention or discovery is a philosophical question that applies to art, mathematics, and the whole imaginative realm and would be similarly debated in Faerūn.
The mind of Mystra knows less than all, and I think mortal discovery in the Weave is one of her chief pleasures: her goal of magical diversity and fulfilment is also one of self-knowledge.
You'd indeed think the gods are less than humanly competent if you believe the wrong sources. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2011 : 14:22:09
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I think 'a lot' of magical knowledge is rediscovery of 'past secrets', and thus the formulas are 'locked in'. This doesn't mean that new spells and research aren't possible, or alterations to existing dweomers. In fact, I would hazard to guess that 95% of all 'new magic' are just variations on older rituals.
I think a 'god of magic' is really only responsible (and perhaps aware of) magics that mortals have already discovered, which amounts to quite a lot in a high-magic, ancient setting like FR, but new discoveries are still made all the time (like substituting a different material component and altering the spell duration or AOE). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2011 14:23:24 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 01:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The mind of Mystra knows less than all, and I think mortal discovery in the Weave is one of her chief pleasures: her goal of magical diversity and fulfilment is also one of self-knowledge.
Indeed. She made that quite plain in her pact/agreement with Larloch. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 23:38:34
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Thats exactly what im thinking on... If Larloch and or the Srinshee have done nothing but study magic their entire life... have they reached a certain procentage of what their is to lean? And where next should someone like them go' to lean more?
And magic, is it indeed possible to create/manipulate on a unlimited scale? Or is there a certain max that a spell/ ritual can have.
I know about Mystra's Ban, but im thinkin in more theoretical terms.
Does magic realy have endless possibilities??? Can one learn all the rules magic is governed by and indeed know everything there is to know???
In the real world we have not yet fully understood the univers, and everything that goes on there. Is it realy endless, does it expand or will it be consumed by black holes in the end, and what predates the big bang? Are we to see magic like this, because then at one point we will probably know all there is to know about magic.
Mortals in FR already know wast amounts on magical lore, just like scientists on Earth, but are their neering the final chapters in the colossal tome that is magic? or are there simply to many pages and to many scribes, that write new pages, for any beeing to ever finish it??? |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 02 Feb 2011 23:41:26 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 04:09:21
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Take Larloch for example. If magic has an end and he has already learned everything, he would undoubtedly be bored. And what does an uber-powerful evil lich do when bored? Blast people and cities for sheer entertainment. So far we haven't yet seen him do that.  So there's more he's yet to learn and dying to learn. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 09:54:08
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Gods are gods, after all, and their knowledge surpasses our mortal comprehension. I think a deity of magic, especially a greater deity, would know all the possibilities magic can offer. And considering that maybe time can be pointless to the deity that governs prophecies (divination) and even time travel, maybe this deity indeed will know all the spells that were, are and will be. However, it's the mortal's free will that makes THEM the creators of most new magics, no matter if this god or that goddess knows it "previously".
Considering gods can die or be killed, maybe they even know what will happen, but it can be that somehow they can't change the facts (remember, gods have misterious ways...). There are certain rules they must follow, and maybe that's why Mystra died more than once, even knowing her fate (as indicated in the Avatar Trilogy). However, she had some preparations done to arrange her return, even if it was through another "person" - Midnight - that influenced her future.
And Dennis, I must disagree about Larloch, even if I think it's nearly impossible, even for a powerful character as the Warlock King, to keep track of every spell in the Realms, even that one created by an wizard's apprentice on a small village hidden in a forest between somewhere and nowhere... Even if Larloch knew every spell ever created, "magic" is not only knowing spells. As far as I remember, Larloch tries to collect magical items and artifacts. Recovering the lost artifacts would be already a great, time consuming task.
Besides, there are those artifacts that are in possession of strong beings/characters. And remember, time is not a problem for him, so sometimes conflicts can be avoided, not out of goodness or cowardice, but only becuse he can wait for a moment in which he can conquer what he wants with less effort. And we're considering him as a calculating character. Maybe centuries of lichdom affected his reasoning... And it doesn't necessarily means he will go spell-hurling everywhere. It only means he's unpredictable... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 03 Feb 2011 10:06:02 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 11:56:39
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Azuth might know every spell ever created, at least every spell that works under Mystra's Weave. God of spellcasting and all that. Mystra might also know every spell but her focus was more on the magic itself, not on the formulae which manipulated it. Even they might not know or understand every spell in existence, since many do not work with any given Weave construct, ie: they follow different magical "laws". I think that their divine stations are symbiotic; they might actually diminish and "forget" a spell if it is forever lost to mortals, explaining in part their interest in promoting eternal discovery and innovation of magic.
Larloch is a special exception: he might actually remember magic from the time of Mystryl that even Mystra does not know of. The Nether scrolls (many of which Larloch has studied) contain "limitless" arcane knowledge that even Mystra does not fully comprehend. I'd honestly be a little surprised if Larloch hasn't surpassed Karsus's mastery after so many millennia ... I am also curious about his apparent acceptance of Mystra's arbitrary limitations on the use of higher magic (which prevents Larloch from casting, say, a 12th level spell named Larloch's Avatar). I'm not saying Larloch would necessarily want to cast this particular spell (the portfolio brings too many annoying chores), but surely he'd love to be able to use 12th level (or higher) magics assuming that he can't already. Remember that Larloch has also studied the planus mechanus extensively and explored the planes, probably even regions inaccessible to Faerūnian powers. He's also outlived three administrations of the Goddess of Magic and seems largely unaffected by the transitions between them. He obviously doesn't know "everything about all magic" because he aggressively continues to drive himself towards learning more. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:54:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
And Dennis, I must disagree about Larloch, even if I think it's nearly impossible, even for a powerful character as the Warlock King, to keep track of every spell in the Realms, even that one created by an wizard's apprentice on a small village hidden in a forest between somewhere and nowhere... Even if Larloch knew every spell ever created, "magic" is not only knowing spells. As far as I remember, Larloch tries to collect magical items and artifacts. Recovering the lost artifacts would be already a great, time consuming task.
Besides, there are those artifacts that are in possession of strong beings/characters. And remember, time is not a problem for him, so sometimes conflicts can be avoided, not out of goodness or cowardice, but only becuse he can wait for a moment in which he can conquer what he wants with less effort. And we're considering him as a calculating character. Maybe centuries of lichdom affected his reasoning... And it doesn't necessarily means he will go spell-hurling everywhere. It only means he's unpredictable...
I used a conditional sentence to point out the improbability that magic has no end. Which means, to rephrase my previous post, Larloch will never be able to learn everything about magic, no matter how many spells he manages to create and no matter how many artifacts he hoards. He can create one spell now, and make a hundred or more variations of it later. He can amass as many magical items as he can, but there are those which are absolutely beyond his reach. In short, he'll never get bored. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 15:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Larloch is a special exception: he might actually remember magic from the time of Mystryl that even Mystra does not know of. The Nether scrolls (many of which Larloch has studied) contain "limitless" arcane knowledge that even Mystra does not fully comprehend.
Arik, I've not read everything about Larloch or Mystra... Where have you found these informations? And I always thought that Mystra could understand the Scrolls. Even if they were written before her life as a mortal, the goddess is part what once was Midnight, part the essence of the old Mystra, as it occurred before with Mystril. I assumed all the knowledge about magic and how it works would "come in the package", since (I think) it would be necessary to allow its govern/control. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 19:31:54
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See, I do not feel gods are 'all knowing', at least not the ones mortals in the D&D setting are aware of. D&D gods are little more then 'caretakers' in charge of certain properties of the universe within a confined region (normally one crystal sphere/world).
I also feel that the gods are just as much controlled by their faithful as vice-versa. For instance, the 'dogma' of the church dictates what a god can do, within the church's area of influence (which allows deities to have different aspects and abilities 'elsewhere'). It is canon (at least post-ToT) that a deity's power is directly linked to their followers, both in numbers and fervor, and we know that deities appear differently to different folks (take Grumsh/Talos, for example).
Taking this train of thought further, this is why I do not think a deity of magic would have knowledge of spells their followers have never discovered/invented. Things that occur 'outside' of their faithful works like a 'blind spot' for them (which makes sense in regards to Shar and her Shadoweave). Basically, a deity's mind is really just the sum total of all of their followers minds that have ever existed (which is pretty awesome, but certainly NOT all-knowing).
Mostly just my own thoughts on the subject, so take it with a grain of salt. I just don't like the idea of 'dead ends' within an ever-expanding universe. There should always be room for more. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2011 19:46:12 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 20:11:41
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| Barastir I haven't read everything about Larloch either. The assumption behind my statement is that Mystra does not actually know/understand everything her predecessor Mystryl did, just as there are hints about Midnight-Mystra not actually knowing everything her predecessor Mystra did. Larloch has accumulated and practiced his magic under the auspices of all three of these goddesses, so he might know some details that they don't. Maybe not a lot, but then again maybe enough to "break the rules" in some way. I've long speculated that Larloch does not depend on the Weave, at least not entirely, to sustain his magic. Note also that I said Larloch "might" (or might not) have such knowledge, since my speculation could be incorrect. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 10:47:45
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Arik,
My questions arised because, even if Midnight-Mystra didn't know everything that the previous incarnations of the deity of magic, I think at least part of the knowledge was passed along. However, I do remember seeing somewhere that Azuth would help Midnight in her apotheosis. The question is: how much knowledge is passed along, since she must have the basics for keeping magic operational... (That's why I mentioned the "basic laws" and "potentials")
Markustay,
I don't see D&D deities (even greater gods) as omniscient, but there are clues in the Realms about deities knowing everything about their Area of Control/ Spheres of Influence. There is an explicit mention about Deneir knowing everything (except magic) that was, is or will be written, IIRC. So, every spell could be known by Mystra (maybe), Azuth (most probably), or both of them (unlikely). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 11:36:11
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The question is not how much Mystra knows, but how much Larloch does.
The goddesses of magic definitely did not know everything in their area of control/influence. Mystryl (in the time before Azuth) was destroyed by a spell cast by a mortal magic user; she was clearly unaware of (and powerless to stop) the magic. Midnight-Mystra 2.0 was completely flatfooted (and killed) by the Spellplague even after powerful magic users had already divined her fate with fair accuracy; she obviously wasn't aware of their spells. (Oddly, Mystra 1.0 may have somehow sensed her impending powerlessness and the Time of Troubles, since she had prepared for centuries by caching fragments of her power in Chosen and other vessels, though it might have just been prudence/paranoia, and it didn't really help her anyhow.)
There is of course all of the non-Weave magic that Mystra cannot perceive: elven High Magic, True or High Magic (Dweomercrafting), Maztican Feather Magic, and (pre-SP) Shadow Weave are a few alternate systems.
I agree that Mystra, and certainly Azuth, would have knowledge of every spell in the Realms. And Deneir or Oghma likely has knowledge of every written work in the Realms. But there are limits, Deities & Demigods provided rules which roughly outlined the limits of a god's power. The god (or an avatar) needs to be within a certain proximity, and gains only a general sense of things of interest, and must concentrate to learn particular details. Karsus was not only a magic-user, but in fact the most powerful one in the world, yet Mystryl obviously didn't see what he was doing. Deneir might know of every writing, and be able to sense the general nature, contents, and locations of books, but he'd need to actually "get close" and focus his attention to recall every specific word contained therein. Waukeen might have a sort of divine "detect economics" power, but she wouldn't be aware of a particular coin or merchant without, again "getting close" and actively monitoring where it is. The most powerful deities can simultaneously monitor many things in large regions, but they cannot be aware of everything happening across all of Faerūn that falls under their governance. This alone accumulates gaps in their knowledge, most of the Realms just runs on "autopilot" while the god's attention mostly focusses on roving maintenance and repairs, usually somewhere far away. That's part of the reason the gods charge their clergy with doing chores. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Feb 2011 11:52:06 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 16:29:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
The question is not how much Mystra knows, but how much Larloch does.
Nice explanation, it makes some sense. My question about Mystra was that, if she knew everything, it would be impossible that Larloch could know more than her... 
Well, and the thread wasn't specifically about Larloch, it's about magic, and in the first question Mystra was cited, that's why I focused on this comparison. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 07 Feb 2011 16:32:20 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 03:29:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Arik,I don't see D&D deities (even greater gods) as omniscient, but there are clues in the Realms about deities knowing everything about their Area of Control/ Spheres of Influence. There is an explicit mention about Deneir knowing everything (except magic) that was, is or will be written, IIRC. So, every spell could be known by Mystra (maybe), Azuth (most probably), or both of them (unlikely).
Accent, mine.
I would append that sentence with ... within Realmspace.
A god's portfolio only extends to the crystal sphere they are venerated in, and within their personal realm in the outer planes. If they are multi-spheric, it extends to the sphere within each crystal sphere they hold sway (although I personally feel each sphere would have an independent 'aspect').
Oghma may have great knowledge of Earth, but Deneir would only have what knowledge of Earth that natives of Realmspace knew. Considering the nature of the Forgotten Realms (and all its portals), Deneir's non-FR knowledge may have been considerable, but not exhaustive.
A Deity's influence ends at the Sphere's walls. There are a few exceptions (like Ptah), but otherwise that's the rule.
EDIT: As for the topic, that means that even if a being learned all there was about a subject (including magic), there would still be more to be learned from other worlds. This is why MANY Archmages leave their worlds and go planeswalking (FR is rife with this). Even the mighty Sojourner left Toril in ancient times in search of greater magics. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Feb 2011 03:39:55 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 09:42:24
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| Is Ptah still around post-Mulhorand-pantheon-kill? He's said to be pan-cosmic and exist everywhere. Is he dead or just Ao-blocked from exerting power in the Realms? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2011 09:42:46 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 09:48:49
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| True enough, Markustay. So, if Mystra (or Azuth) follows this reasoning, she (he) would know very spell created, written or brought into the Realms. So, Larloch would only know more than her (him) if he knew a spell outside the Realmspace, and didn't write or reproduce it in this crystal sphere. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 17:18:05
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If we accept that the weave is a lid put on an otherwise endless pot, then it is a fixed amount of magic and thus it is possible to know all it contains. Then we have to look outside the "lid." We would have to accept that Mystra in "only" guardian and protector of this lid and or pot and the rules governed by it. But what about the rules outside the pot? If we agree that Abeir-Toril is one crystal sphere, where some ancient rules governs ALL magic, then it is again a fixed amount and in theory it can all be leaned... Unless these rules can be bent or broken. Can anyone mortal or divine change the rules set down by the creator of the crystal sphere? And is the answer is no, then it is in some way futile to even bother trying to discover new magic since it has already been decided beforehand. And it is this thought of a kind of fate that makes me think.
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 13 Feb 2011 17:18:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 21:20:31
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Mystryl seemed to have some ability in this dept., since she was able to alter the level-cap on spells. Given that the level cap of most other worlds is ninth, one can assume that Mystrya DID NOT reduce the level cap after the fall of Netheril, but rather restored it to it's default setting. One may also come to the conclusion that after Mystryl was destroyed, the sphere itself 'reset' to its default settings.
From my greater knowledge of D&D worlds (as in 'outside the Realms', not as in "better then anyone else's"), I come to accept that there are 'default settings' on all crystal spheres (and planes), which are normally left in-place and unchanged, BUT Spheric Gaurdians (like Ao) are able to reset some of the parameters, and apparently can delegate portions of the rule-set to gods who's portfolio those rules may fall under (like Mystra and magic). This is why things like gravity (physics) and chemical reactions (chemistry) normally follow the same rules from world to world, as does magic, which allows people to be able to use their abilities and survive. This of course is not true 100% of the time, as we know (for instance, mixing the ingredients of Gunpowder together in Realmspace DOES NOT create a volatile substance, normally). The Planescape rules better-covers this aspect of planes-hopping (the rules about how magic and physical laws vary are quite extensive in that setting). So while there is a definite 'preset' for all planes/spheres/worlds, they obviously (from what we know of D&D settings) can be altered by some over-power (or by someone the over-power has given permission to do so).
BTW, it is my theory that every plane/demi-plane/sphere is nothing more then an extremely large 'domain' belonging to some power, and as we know from cosmological rules, a god has supreme power within their realm (which means Ao might be near-powerless if he were to travel to Sigil... theoretically, of course). And just as deities can have lesser deities dwelling within their domains, that is what happens when a Planer Guardian allows lesser powers to operate within their plane (even to the extant of creating demi-planes, which crystal spheres really are, when you consider they all exist on the prime material plane).
By this reasoning, that means Ao - at the end of the Avatar novels - was speaking with the domain lord of the Prime Material itself. I also make the assumption that these uber-powerful beings allow this system to continue because each in-turn garners power from the beings beneath it, so that deities empower Ao (and others like him) in much the same manner as mortals empower deities (with their faith). Each is a piece in a VAST cosmic machine, and each part must be kept operating or the whole thing comes to a halt (which is why mortals MUST worship, and why deities MUST tend to their portfolios, and Overgods MUST keep their sphere operating at peak efficiency, etc, ad infinitum.
Not precisely on-topic, but I like to step back and view the 'big picture', sometimes, to get a better angle on the topic itself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2011 21:23:22 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 21:45:07
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Sooo.... This would mean, that even though the crystal sphere of Abeir-Toril, has these sertain set of rules, other sphere might have another, and too couldt the prime have a third. But in the wastness of the in between the spheres, that emptiness, what exsists there?
Is this a place of total and utter manipulation where only the mind sets the bar, or is this too bound by rules?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 22:04:25
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Depends on what you imagine is between the spheres. Technically, the Phlogiston is there, and it is of a very volatile nature itself (no fire-magics allowed, or you go BOOM!)
Gray and I had a great discussion awhile back about the nature of the phlogiston, which we just pictured being a physical manifestation of some other plane (the Astral,ethereal, or shadow... I forget). My latest interpretation has the ethereal just being the 'meeting place' between the planes, so in my model the Border-Ethereal is just the 'shallow end' of the Sea of Shadows (the Shadowfel).
Ergo, the ethereal exists between the prime worlds, and makes up the bulk of the Prime Material. So depending upon how you traveled there, you would have to follow the rules of that setting (either PS or SJ). IIRC, magic spells (and certainly divine magic) cannot be replenished within either the Phlogiston or Ethereal, which makes sense.
I recently re-imagined my cosmology (just some tweaks, really) so that the Shadowfel and Feywild made more sense as the 'light and dark mirrors' of the material world. All three are vast seas now, wherein floats 'islands' of reality. Not so different then how Spelljammer imagined the prime, or how Ravenloft pictured the 'sea of Mists', and how I saw ethereal travel working all along (as in the Elric novels, you could literally 'sail' from world to world). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2011 22:06:31 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 23:15:45
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Most of the things you describe I have never heard of... But as Ive said so many times, that im only a novise in lore, since Ive only read he Elminster novels up to El in hell... so.
But all these questions and statements of mine is more of a theoretical or philosophical nature, and therefore I might say stuff which easily could be answered by people knowing the facts of the multiverse.
But what this post has taught me is that Abeir-Toril might have manipulation of magic from 1-9(12) and some few, but some other forms of magic. Further into the multiverse the manipulation factors might go to 15-20 and further still 20-30. What these abilities might be we can only guess, but for an ant, the smallest amount of fire would be like a cataclysm unfolding. For Faerūnians we have something like Karsus folly, and on further planes we might have the destruction of entire fields of crystal spheres.
It all might be like in the end of "Men in Black 1" where the giant creatures play marbles with our galaxy!!!
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 13 Feb 2011 23:17:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 00:53:30
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A long time ago I created levels 10-15 magic, long before I read about netheril (or FR became a published setting. This is how I worked it:
Spell Being
Level Level
0 Anyone
1-9 Mortals
10 Demi-powers
11 Lesser Powers
12 Intermediate Powers
13 Greater powers
14 High Powers (Pantheonic leaders)
15 Ordials (Over powers/Primordials)
Thats how I had it way back when, when I read the 1st printing of Deities & Demigods, and first mused to myself about the nature of magic, the gods, and the universe. At that time, the 'Ordials' slot was taken by THE GOD but I have since conjectured well beyond that level (sonce Ao sits at that level, and we know he is not the 'Supreme Being' of the entire multiverse). In fact, when I pictured it working like that, I only ran Greyhawk, so it based around the idea of only one world existing (obviously long before SJ or PS, or any of TSR's other official settings, which forced me to think beyond my one world of choice).
I would probably add 5-6 more levels to that now, to accommodate all of the higher levels of Cosmic Beings that exist beyond Ao and mortal comprehension. For some reason, I find the idea of 'level 21 magic' being the sole property of 'The One true God' very satisfying (C&S was the first 'real' RPG system I cut my teeth on, and it had 21 magic levels, which is based upon two mystical numbers - 3x7 - which pleases me on some deep level).
Somewhere on this site I had a list of all the levels in my own over-system, with 0 being a child and 100 being GOD (which also had the equivalent DvR from 3e DD). If I were to build a system wherein the 100 levels (below GOD) scaled perfectly to the magic levels, then a new spell level would be gotten every five levels (instead of every two levels, like how it is in standard D&D), which would make logical sense, but sounds like an unplayable mess to me. Can you imagine being level 10 and finally getting level 2 spells? So the godhood (DvR) levels do not scale well with mortal magic, at all, and doesn't really work within a single system.
And creating a separate magic system for divine beings is ludicrous, IMHO - how often would it come up? There is a point when rules shouldn't be written, and just let the gamemaster decide what happens.
I'm still debating on weather to create my own magic system (based on D20) for my homebrew world; it's the perfect solution, but it is a LOT of extra work. I sometimes find D&D's rule a bit... confining. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2011 00:55:55 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
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Does magic have an end
