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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 19:14:48
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I'm not as familiar with the wonderful works of the 4e design team as I would like to be. Many scribes here at the 'Keep have brought up, in recent threads, issues with retroactive coninuity. Once again, I am not as familiar with the fantastic work of the 4e design team as I would like, so please scribes, answer me this...
What retcons were introduced in (the published version) of GHotR and the 4e Campaign Setting and Players books?
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 20:07:22
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| In the grand Candlekeep tradition, I hope that the community could come together and develop an extensive list, regardless of length. |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 20:16:33
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Cool.
Off the top of my head, there are a few gods that turned out to be either facets of other gods or former Primordials, and Abeir and Toril turned out to be twin worlds separated at birth instead of the one world being called Abeir-Toril as before. There's also been some mention of Sun and Moon elves being retconned into Eladrin, but I though the Eladrin racial stats were just being used to represent Sun and Moon elves in 4e...
I'm sure there are others, but these are the big ones I can recall. |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 20:17:49
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The biggest one I can think off the top of my head?
Abeir.
There was no Abeir before 4th Edition. Toril was Abeir-Toril (so it would appear first in the old Encyclopedia). With the GHotR and then the Spellplague, the Sundering is revealed as the planet being split into two by Ao. From then on, Spelljammers refer to Abeir-Toril (for some strange reason), while those in the separate dimension (that apparently no one knows about except Ao) where Abeir exists drop the Toril from their planet's name.
Edit: Ouch. Ninja'd by a Cleric.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 14 Jun 2010 20:18:31 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 20:24:51
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On Abeir: Is this a ret-con? The splitting of the world inot two worlds was done by Ao, the Hidden One. We find out that Kossuth is an uber being, somewhat different than a Power. No canon lore is violated or made irreconcilable by this lore introduction... Or is it?
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 20:28:33
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There are three types of Ret-con:
Addition
Alteration
Subtraction
The Sundering is an example of an Addition Ret-Con, added to establish a basis for the current storyline. The Eladrin/Elves is an example of Alteration. While merging of the different gods can be seen as an Subtraction Ret-con. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 20:34:44
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The merging of the demihuman deities into aspects of the human gods would qualify as a retcon to me.
I will not start ranting...
I will not start ranting... |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 21:09:32
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Lady Fellshot: I couldn't agree with you more.
Ashe: I completely agree with the Sundering's qualification as an 'Addition' ret-con. An 'addition' being the least drastic type of ret-con, and probably the type of ret-con that fans want the most. (We want to know more history of the 'Realms, and so addition ret-cons should be lauded, not derided. I don't recall reading about the Sarruhk in OGB... Were they ret-conned in?). As far as the Eladrin/Elves issue. Is it a ret-con if a group of people choose to call themselves by a new name? Regarding the elves' post-plague abilities, this is explained by the new proximity of the Feywilde, and changes in the Tel'Quessir as a result of this... Is it an 'Alteration' ret-con if elves, up to one point in history, refer to themselves as elves, and then at some later junction, refer to themselves by a new moniker? This does not seem, to me, to 'alter' the continuity, but rather is a 'natural' aspect of an elven cultural revolution. We know that the elves are an immigrant cultural group; what would be the effect of having access to the 'old homeland' again? What would be the effect of reconnecting with the vast power of that 'old homeland'?
(Please note, I don't care for, what I consider, strange interminglings between the demi-human and human deities. IMO, the elven pantheon is far older than the Faerunian one, and is extant on nigh-infinite worlds.)
But, what previous stories were made 'untenable' by the re-organization and (merging?) of the Elven and Faerunian pantheon? (This seems to be a requirement for a 'Subtraction' ret-con...) |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 21:25:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Regarding the Eladrin, before the Spellplague, Eladrin were CG Outsiders more closely related to Angels & Archons than mortal elves.
I've always framed up issues like the one you mention above with analogies:
Humans are to Angels as Elves are to Eladrin.
Now, if a vast celestial empire moved into phase with a prime world, and the divine ruler of this celestial empire told the mortal inhabitants therein, "you are my children, servants and chosen beings. Stand amongst my angels and know glory," or something like that, I wouldn't dis these newly empowered mortals if they came to call themselves 'angels'. (Especially if, as a result of this celestial planes new orientation the mortals servants of said empire gained the ability to teleport there at will...) |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 21:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Regarding the Eladrin, before the Spellplague, Eladrin were CG Outsiders more closely related to Angels & Archons than mortal elves.
I've always framed up issues like the one you mention above with analogies:
Humans are to Angels as Elves are to Eladrin.
Now, if a vast celestial empire moved into phase with a prime world, and the divine ruler of this celestial empire told the mortal inhabitants therein, "you are my children, servants and chosen beings. Stand amongst my angels and know glory," or something like that, I wouldn't dis these newly empowered mortals if they came to call themselves 'angels'. (Especially if, as a result of this celestial planes new orientation the mortals servants of said empire gained the ability to teleport there at will...) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 22:11:06
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No problem, Brace. I totally agree with your comparison of Humans/Angels = Elves/Eladrin.
Now, let's take that a step further. The Spellplague hits and all of a sudden everyone in Cormyr is declared to be Angels while all other humans remain human (because the designers wanted to incorporate Angels as a base race). It is still a 'ret-con' because of the fact that it was written into the story simply to explain away something else that happened 'off-stage' (in the literary sense) or to fit the 'new way to do things' (in the gaming sense).
Does the explanation make sense? Yes. Does that make it any less of a ret-con? No. To bring it into more familiar terms, the 'old' Klingons in Star Trek didn't have the head-bumps (or even a Klingon language!) in the old series. Once the series was updated for the movies, these things came in because they had a budget. Later on, the difference in appearance between the old & new Klingons was ret-conned by Star Trek: Enterprise as being a genetic mutation from a contracted virus. The story reason was good and well written. It was still a ret-con, albeit one widely accepted by fans. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 22:51:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
No problem, Brace. I totally agree with your comparison of Humans/Angels = Elves/Eladrin.
Now, let's take that a step further. The Spellplague hits and all of a sudden everyone in Cormyr is declared to be Angels while all other humans remain human (because the designers wanted to incorporate Angels as a base race). It is still a 'ret-con' because of the fact that it was written into the story simply to explain away something else that happened 'off-stage' (in the literary sense) or to fit the 'new way to do things' (in the gaming sense).
Does the explanation make sense? Yes. Does that make it any less of a ret-con? No. To bring it into more familiar terms, the 'old' Klingons in Star Trek didn't have the head-bumps (or even a Klingon language!) in the old series. Once the series was updated for the movies, these things came in because they had a budget. Later on, the difference in appearance between the old & new Klingons was ret-conned by Star Trek: Enterprise as being a genetic mutation from a contracted virus. The story reason was good and well written. It was still a ret-con, albeit one widely accepted by fans.
I read the wiki entry on "Retroactive Continuity" before starting this thread, but thanks for the links.
Now, I am *not* trying to be argumentative, (I must be careful, for the Moderators here find me more incendiary than I really am...) but lets say that Azoun the IV, King of Cormyr, dies in...oh, 1371 DR. Sometime later, lets say *the day after* Alusair Obarskyr becomes Regent of Cormyr. Is this a ret-con? Alusairs regency is written in to fill the power vacuum left by the dead king... how is this different
from the situation you describe above?
Since we're using the same wiki article, how does the Feywilde becoming more accessible to Faerun's immigrant elf population "effectively state "what you saw isn't what really happened" and then introduce a different version of the backstory." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity#Alteration) |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 23:07:24
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Hi, Brace. The example you cite (Alusair becoming Regent) is not a ret-con by any definition, because it follows on from an in-world event in a logical manner and is thus part of the unfolding history of the Realms. (Ed created Cormyr as the sort of monarchy that has regencies when a royal heir is a baby or young child or incapacitated; there were several regents in Cormyrean history before Alusair.)
A ret-con, by definition, "changes the rules" (or changes the way observers of the setting view "what we know" of some element of the setting), whilst making the claim that this is the way things have been all along (as in: there have always been sarrukh in the Realms, the rulebooks just didn't mention them before, so you as an observer of the setting didn't "notice" them before, or thought they were something else when you did see them (examples of this: the mutable types of elves).
Note that I'm not making any value judgements (retcons good, retcons bad) here, one way or another, simply pointing out that the example you gave is NOT a ret-con.
Revealing that Cormyr is really ruled by the dragons, who devour each monarch coming to the throne and take human form to sit in their place, only to have human offspring which they then devour and do it all over again, in an endless secret cycle - - that WOULD be a retcon. Unless, that is, the Old Grey Box included some pretty strong hints by Ed that this was the case (dragon scales being found on the throne shortly after the coronation of every new monarch, or something similar).
love,
THO
Edit: fixed a typo. |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 14 Jun 2010 23:08:32 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 23:20:56
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Thanks for the reply, THO. I was probably getting overly rhetorical with my example, re:Cormyr's Regency.
Using your definition, THO, then the elves becoming Eladrin must *not be a ret-con*, neither an Addition ret-con or an Alteration ret-con, because the Elves (Tel'Quessir) become Eladrin (Tel'Quessir) "follows on from an in-world event in a logical manner and is thus part of the unfolding history of the Realms." That in-world event being the drifting Feywilde... |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 23:27:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Note that I'm not making any value judgements (retcons good, retcons bad) here, one way or another, simply pointing out that the example you gave is NOT a ret-con.
One more thing, regarding the quote above. If there were bits of Lore, written by Ed, that didn't make it into a published source, but then later Ed decided to expand upon his present lore by introducing us to these historical "facts" which were not previously revealed, in a new published source. We must say that Ed is re-conning his world, yes?
(I'm brazen enough to make the value judgment that such a ret-con *would* be a good thing...) |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 23:29:13
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| A lot of the confusion probably stems from the new name being ported from generic 4e DnD lore, which was imported from the race of celestials before that. Sun and Moon elves are still Sun and Moon elves, just their fey-ness has been exaggerated by the planar drift... Assuming I understand correctly... |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 23:58:47
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<off topic>quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Later on, the difference in appearance between the old & new Klingons was ret-conned by Star Trek: Enterprise as being a genetic mutation from a contracted virus.
Holy crap! I didn't even know that (big Trek fan here).
You learn all kinds of stuff at the 'Keep.
</returns you to your normal scroll activities> |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 23:59:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Thanks for the reply, THO. I was probably getting overly rhetorical with my example, re:Cormyr's Regency.
Using your definition, THO, then the elves becoming Eladrin must *not be a ret-con*, neither an Addition ret-con or an Alteration ret-con, because the Elves (Tel'Quessir) become Eladrin (Tel'Quessir) "follows on from an in-world event in a logical manner and is thus part of the unfolding history of the Realms." That in-world event being the drifting Feywilde...
The DIFFERENCES between Elves and Eladrin are what show it as a Ret-Con. Because the rules deemed that Eladrin were a playable race, they needed a way to show them in the Realms. Hence, Sun/Moon Elves were changed (physically and literally) to Eladrin. They were no longer a sub-race of Elves, but an entirely new race.
I'm not understanding what you're trying to do with this scroll. You are saying that you're not being inflammatory, then taking the position that none of the changes to the Realms are a 'ret-con', when the very definition of 'ret-con' is subject to a very varied opinion depending on the viewer.
For instance, at the end of Return of the Jedi, you see Anakin, Yoda and Obi-wan as force spirits to show that ultimately Anakin was redeemed. In the original release, Anakin/Darth Vader was portray (under the mask) by Sebastian Shaw. After the pre-quels came out, George Lucas ret-conned the ending to show Hayden Christiansen, implying that his redemption brought him back to how he was before he embraced the dark side.
Now, is this a ret-con by definition of adding/altering/subtracting to the canon material of the Star Wars universe? Technically, no since the plot and story was no different than it was prior. However, you ask 10 fans of Star Wars if this was ret-con and 9 would agree that it was.
So, Brace, if this scroll isn't inflammatory and looking to say "See? I'm right about the 4E Realms and you're all wrong", then what ARE you trying to do? The original post was you asking us to list the ret-cons that have happened through the different editions to give you an idea of what we are talking about. However, as we offer our evidence, you're snubbing each one saying that it's not evidence because YOU don't think it's a ret-con. This leads me to believe that since you don't think anything that has been done is a ret-con, then you had other reasons for starting this scroll. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 00:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
On Abeir: Is this a ret-con? The splitting of the world inot two worlds was done by Ao, the Hidden One. We find out that Kossuth is an uber being, somewhat different than a Power. No canon lore is violated or made irreconcilable by this lore introduction... Or is it?
I had decided not to participate in this thread, because I can see it is a minefield waiting to happen, buuuuuut...
There is a big difference between finding out 'new lore on an old subject', and finding out you've been living on half a planet. There is a line where 'additional lore' becomes a retcon... unfortunately everyone is going to draw that line in a different spot. It is a matter of your own, personal 'believability threshold', and is HIGHLY subjective. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jun 2010 00:58:24 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 02:03:51
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Hey Ashe: First of all, I wanted to know what the scribes here at the 'Keep thought were ret-cons. (In my experience with my more astute comics buddies, ret-cons are always negative.) Once this list began to be populated, I noticed that folks were using a number of different 'working models' to define 'ret-cons'. I would like to develop a working definition of what a ret-con is. We certainly wouldn't say the Netheril was a ret-con, but neither Netheril nor Loross is mentioned in the OGB. It's clear that the fan base seems to want "Additive" ret-cons. "Alteration" and "Subtraction" ret-cons seem to be the most pernicious, and unwanted by the fan-base.
Now, once we've determined what exactly a ret-con is, we can begin to determine what types of ret-cons are encouraged, what types are discouraged, and what types anathema.
Please note, Ashe, that I never stated that I don't believe any of the changes to the Realms were ret-cons. Above you state that I am taking that position. This is disingenuous.
You go one to say that I am somehow snubbing you and other scribes by challenging your assertions. Quite the opposite, Ashe. It is a sign of significant respect to challenge another scribe, and in doing so I have stated nothing that was disingenuous or fallacious.
I didn't proffer the link to Wiki. You did. By doing so, you seem to be lending some credence to that article. In addition, you delineate ret-con into 3 sub groups. By doing so, I feel as if you are relying upon, or at least agreeing with, the definitions supplied by the article. If ret-con is a subjective phrase, then I should hope that scribes in the future will state that they "believe x is a retcon" as opposed to "x is a retcon". If Ret-con is an objective phrase, then I hope we can agree on a definition (which is kinda' obligatory in debates like this one...)
Ashe, with these semantic issues aside, what are the differences between the Elves and Eladrin, and does this change meet the criteria set forth by the wiki article you linked? If you don't believe that this meets the criteria you specified, but rather is more a "feeling" thing, like the Stars Wars example you gave, that ok, too.
Thanks again for your contributions. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 02:30:38
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Well I can throw in one Ret-Con.
Dark Elves were never dark elves, all the time they were Green elves (Just darker skinned green). This of course makes the Descent that makes dark elves to become Drow, even of good alignment, that did not include all of the Green Elves. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 02:37:28
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why do i feel like there is bait on a hidden hook just dangling in front of my fisheyes when i read this thread
*casts Protection From Trolls |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
Edited by - coach on 15 Jun 2010 02:38:30 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 02:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
why do i feel like there is bait on a hidden hook just dangling in front of my fisheyes when i read this thread
*casts Protection From Trolls
I know not from whence this fetid aura emanates, coach, but I shall remain vigilant as well...
*cast Ward Against Troll, Thread-wide Radius
That oughta' keep everyone safe. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 03:39:54
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@The Eladrin issue.
If my memory hasn't gone completely foggy, the pre-4E Eladrin had no relation to Elves. The Eladrin were the embodiment of pure Chaotic Goodness that happened to look (most often, some or most could alter their forms easily via innate abilities) similar to elves. I like to think of it as the multiverse doing a second take on a form just because it works or maybe because it's pure awesome.
Other examples of this type of parallel development could be found in other universes/franchises. It's repeated often on Stargate SG-1 and spin offs that humans are the second occurrence of the humanoid form, the Ancients were the first. Another example is something the Doctor always says, and I paraphrase, "I don't look human, you look Timelord."
The Eladrin of 4E sort of mesh the Elves and Eladrin, forming a race that's in the middle. I don't think there was ever an actual reason for this. Once the new stuff was released, the older Eladrin never existed and the "high" elf concept took up some of their characteristics including the name of course.
Another retcon may be the deal with alignments, but that's more of a meta-game concept.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
<off topic>quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Later on, the difference in appearance between the old & new Klingons was ret-conned by Star Trek: Enterprise as being a genetic mutation from a contracted virus.
Holy crap! I didn't even know that (big Trek fan here).
You learn all kinds of stuff at the 'Keep.
</returns you to your normal scroll activities>
You need to do yourself the favor of watching the fourth and last season of Enterprise if you haven't done so. It's not the best of Trek, but in my opinion it is the best of Enterprise. It's how I imagined the show would have and should have turned out if they pursued the show's premise with influences from and nods to previous Trek lore.
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 03:41:15
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I tend to agree that there are many, many trolls under the bridge.
Quick, gimme the halfing thief to throw down there and distract
them while we make a break for it. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 04:02:22
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Okay Brace, I justed wanted to make sure where you were coming from on this thread. Now that that's out of the way, I'm likewise trying to define a ret-con before going further in the thread to make sure everyone is on the same page. I linked the wikipedia article (seriously, people-especially educators-need to start excepting wiki as a valid source) because they accurately describe my definitions for ret-con, so I wanted to give an example without typing out a really long winded post that could be summed up in a link.
As for the Eladrin/Elves: Prior to 4E, High Elves were not fey creatures and did not have the dimensional hop ability that Eladrin do. So, before the Spellplague, High Elves, were slightly better with certain abilities (and slightly worse) than their other elven cousins, but after the Spellplague they can now 'fey step'. This is explained in that they always COULD, but the Spellplague reminded them HOW. Hence, in my opinion it is a ret-con since the story has retroactively written the high-elfs ability to coincide with the new rules.
Also, a better link for all things ret-con (and anything else even remotely like it) is at TV Tropes.Org |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 04:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
why do i feel like there is bait on a hidden hook just dangling in front of my fisheyes when i read this thread
*casts Protection From Trolls
"I take insult that can only be resolved by blades, you have the choice of time,"
I was offering example of retcon that Brace asked about. That being "What retcons were introduced in (the published version) of GHotR and the 4e Campaign Setting and Players books?"
It, concerning Drow, most caught my attention when GHotR came out. As such I mentioned that. There clearly might have been others, though 100 years buries a lot of lore.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2010 : 05:05:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
@The Eladrin issue.
If my memory hasn't gone completely foggy, the pre-4E Eladrin had no relation to Elves. The Eladrin were the embodiment of pure Chaotic Goodness that happened to look (most often, some or most could alter their forms easily via innate abilities) similar to elves. I like to think of it as the multiverse doing a second take on a form just because it works or maybe because it's pure awesome.
Eladrin first appeared in Planescape Monstrous Compendium II. There were many types, like the firre and the tulani. All of these were described as "elf-like", and in the cosmology of those days (Great Wheel), were the servants of the gods of Arborea, in which was Arvandor. Check out the 1st edition Deities and Demigods book (for info on Corellon) , PS MC II, Faiths and Pantheons (for 3.x) and the Manual of the Planes (any edition) for more info. Book of Exalted deeds, (3.x) details those eladrin groups left out of the SRD. Warriors of Heaven, on pg. 4, 13 and 56, details the elven 'heritage' of the eladrin, and Corellon Larethian's use of Eladrin. Warriors of Heaven also notes, however, that eladrin are not elves. So, much like Angels are to Humans, so are Eladrin to Elves. |
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4e-3e-2e-1e-0e retcons...
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