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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
294 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2013 :  06:26:51  Show Profile  Visit ErinMEvans's Homepage Send ErinMEvans a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hesitate to resurrect the scroll here, but I noticed this too late, so forgive me please. I'm not on the internet enough these days.

First of all, I think you should all read Brimstone Angels and Lesser Evils, since they've got the pertinent lore. But then I'm biased. I also have to figure knowing the lore therein might convince you to give them a try!

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

AFAIK (and Erin could correct me), generally-speaking, Forgotten Realms tieflings in a certain era (that is, post-Spellplague to 1480s) labor under a particular *paternal curse* from Asmodeus that affects their heredity and appearance, making them present as the stereotypical "devilish" tiefling.


Pretty close. Here is the relevant excerpt from Lesser Evils i.e. "the canon"(so SPOILER ALERT):






quote:
“If you go back in time, it was never a secret that the king of the Hells wanted godhood,” Lorcan said. He spoke without softness, without care. As if he was relishing putting her through it. “Whether they offered the sacrifices or he demanded them isn’t clear. But thirteen tieflings made a pact with Asmodeus—a mass sacrifice of fiend-born, plus their own souls and blood, for the chance to wield the powers of the Hells.

“The stories are muddled. I don’t doubt some devil has it written down—someone has everything written down—but the way it’s told, the tieflings thought they meant their blood spilt in offering, or maybe their deaths in future sacrifice, but instead . . . their rites let Asmodeus take the very blood in their veins—in every tiefling’s veins for his own.”

Farideh shook her head. “He killed them?”

“Then how would you be here, darling?” Lorcan said. “No. Before the Spellplague, tieflings . . . Well, it was harder to tell who was and who wasn’t, and what sort of being sullied the well. They might have horns or hooves or peculiar eyes or any number of things. Tieflings were descendants of all manner of creatures—demons, devils . . . fiendish things—and it showed. And after . . .”

“After we look the same,” Farideh said, horror dawning on her. “Is that… she did that?”

“Perhaps,” Lorcan said. “As I said, there’s no way of knowing what happened precisely, short of convincing Asmodeus himself to tell you the tale. But there is no demon blood left in tieflings descended from those days. No scattered fiend’s. And tieflings no longer muddle—you breed true. A hundred years ago a body might have a little devil blood. Now a dozen generations could go by, but the result will be the same. You are the descendents of Asmodeus, every one.” His eyes darted once around the space, as if he were afraid the god of evil might be listening. “Whatever happened, those thirteen were in the middle of it and the magic was unlike anything Asmodeus had managed in ages.”




I'd TL;DR this, but I think it's probably nothing for a sage of Realmslore. But who doesn't like a recap?:
*4E tieflingness is a curse tied to Asmodeus's godhood
*It affects tieflings descended from tieflings who were alive in 1385 DR, because it's "dominant." Asmodean tiefling + [basically anything else]=Asmodean tiefling. (I'm sure there's exceptions. I have not probed the edges of what a tiefling might get busy with. I only have so many words.)
*What about all those other kinky fiendish match-ups since then? Excellent question! Note the phrasing here: Lorcan's explicitly not talking about them.
*FTR, the "she" Farideh mentions is Bryseis Kakistos, the original Brimstone Angel, who comes up a bit in the series.
* And the lore will continue in The Adversary (which I should get back to finishing up), including more Asmodeus, tieflings, warlocks, and archdevils.
* But I do agree with Erik and others: Do what you want in your games. They're your Realms.

-e

www.slushlush.com
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2013 :  20:40:41  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I prefer the word "blessing" to "curse". But that's just me.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2013 :  14:56:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem arises from the fact that the term 'Tielfing' is a general term for a type of cross-breed, and now refers to a specific strain of crossbreed - a problem which 4e created in several different branches of lore (like Eladrin).

This means we would need a new term for the old-school Tielflings, since I very much doubt the 'new' ones are going to be giving it up any time soon. It would have been FAR better if the new (4e) ones had been given a new name, but that would have required... hmmmm... whats the word I am looking for? Oh yeah... designing!

My vote goes for 'fiend born' - its generic enough to apply to lots of stuff (until they steal it for something specific somewhere down the line).

I didn't bother to read the OP - just the last few posts. Not sure what the question was, but yes, Fey'ri were a sub-ype of Tielfing, but since that term has been appropriated for a specific sub-type itself, they are no longer Tielfings, merely a type of 'fiend Born' (both groups are).

If the question was "what happens if they crossbreed', well the answer to that is simple: Whatever the author or DM decides happens.

I had it where Tiefings were all Demon-born, and Cambions were all Devil-born - the 4e lore helped with that last part (with Graz'zt being in both camps). I think that was the most elegant solution. Alas, now its just a big mess.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
294 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2013 :  18:36:42  Show Profile  Visit ErinMEvans's Homepage Send ErinMEvans a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The problem arises from the fact that the term 'Tielfing' is a general term for a type of cross-breed, and now refers to a specific strain of crossbreed - a problem which 4e created in several different branches of lore (like Eladrin).

This means we would need a new term for the old-school Tielflings, since I very much doubt the 'new' ones are going to be giving it up any time soon. It would have been FAR better if the new (4e) ones had been given a new name, but that would have required... hmmmm... whats the word I am looking for? Oh yeah... designing!

My vote goes for 'fiend born' - its generic enough to apply to lots of stuff (until they steal it for something specific somewhere down the line).



Markustay, I can't quite tell if your post is meant to point out holes in my explanation, or if you're just citing the things that still bother you and inform your version of events.

If its the latter, cool! As I said, your game, your world. Hopefully you can find a way to continue working around the things you don't care for.

If its the former (or if anyone else is thinking the same), also cool! I get to break it down further. Because I thought about this a lot.

What we'd be looking at here is semantic narrowing--which happens all the time in real world language. "Hound" means "dog," then "hunting dog," then "this particular set of breeds which descend from these kind of dogs used for hunting." "Meat" means "food" and then eventually "flesh we eat." "Phones" looked like all sorts of things when we were kids, and now my son can't identify the phone in Goodnight Moon because its not a small rectangle with a screen. ;)

There's obviously overlap in the middle--we still call a handset "a telephone" even though the under 15 set are rapidly unfamiliar with the things. But notice if I don't specify I mean a handset or a landline, most people these days are going to think of a mobile phone. Because that's what most people mean when they say "phone." And the younger generations are steadily having less and less experience with anything else.

So in the canon Realms situation, it would look like this:
Generation 0--This is the generation the curse/blessing/effect is laid on, the parents of the first generation to see the change. They have full variance. The term applies to anyone with any of these traits.

Generation 1--the vast, vast majority of tiefings are Asmodean, not that people necessarily understand what's happened here. There's room for the original variant tieflings in the above explanation, so lets assume they still occur. But starting here, what most people understand as "a tiefling" starts to narrow. Assuming what I suggested above is true about later pairings, there are non-Asmodean tiefings born in this generation (to half-fiend/human pairings that are not diabolic), but they would be comparatively few and far between (you are only getting first generation tieflings, whereas the Asmodean cohort includes all the people with enough fiendish blood to trigger the curse)

Generation 2: Now there are two full generations of "standardized" tieflings out there. They are more obvious, more categorizable and more numerous. This is where I think you'd see a definition switch. People might still recall there are variant tieflings, but when you say "tiefling" they think horns/tail/eyes/teeth.

Generation 3: By this point, Generation 0 is dead or at the very least, not influential (liches in towers, for example, don't tend to get out and steer language much. I suspect.). So the definition has almost certainly narrowed. Variant tieflings from this point on would either be
A) lumped in with Asmodeans, if their traits are obvious enough. I doubt anyone's going around measuring horn length and going, "Wait a tick...these are too short!"
B) capable of passing. And why wouldn't you? What's considered a tiefling at this point is kind of scary-looking, and gets a bad rap because of that (and because anyone being wicked and tiefling is now super identifiable, and biases are a lot quicker to form). If you're good, you wouldn't want to be hampered like that. If you're evil, you could get so much more done for yourself if people weren't watching you wherever you go. If people have come to believe all fiendish-blooded folks look a certain way (and possible act a certain way), then it's going to be easier to look past a funny smell or a weird vibe or horns you can wear a hat over (assuming you have a hat on. Else...)
C) possibly you are also so weird and so unlike Asmodean tieflings that people know you're not human at a glance but don't think you're a tiefling. Congratulations! You have a dramatic backstory.

My characters fall on the edge of Generation 4 and 5. That's more than enough time for a semantic narrowing considering the accompanying shift of appearance. Potentially, it's also enough time for enough variant tieflings to be born and demand their own separate label (although we're still talking about amall, dispersed populations of people here). But they'd have a heck of a time forcing the language to shift back (and i return to "would they want to?") because they're still not as instantly identifiable and not as numerous, and by now everyone is used to a "tiefling" looking a certain way.

If seems to me, in the canon situation, its this group that would claim the new term. Or maybe you get some competing tiefling pride movements. That could be interesting.

Also interesting: how this would change in a place with demon-heavy (or other non-devil fiends) pairings. Generation 1 would still be Asmodean, and those tieflings would still supersede the variant demon-born. So would the demons care? Would they demand the Asmodean tieflings be killed or segregated? Or would the Asmodean tieflings just identify as demon-born, because they know full well who crossed the planes?


Best,
-e

www.slushlush.com
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe

Canada
592 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2013 :  19:06:27  Show Profile Send Foxhelm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can see that Erin. It is also possible our Devil God placed a spell (or something like we might see a retro-virus in Sci-Fi) which over-writes the non-Assie Tiefling's fiendish side to match his template (perhaps even making his Template the Dominate Gene/Trait for this).

Why would he do this?

So that every tiefling would either worship him, fear him or give him notice as their ancestor. Which could boost his divine power, which increase his influence and power on the Mortal Realm, and so on...

Which might explain the 'end' of the Blood War, as the Demons have stopped fighting for now to not only shore themselves up with slipping in the Elemental Chaos (where the Abyss is in at 4ed) but contering Assie's divinity and power grab with the Tieflings.

Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2013 :  14:02:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never said there wasn't room for both types, and I don't mind the new (4e) sub-type, but a problem arises when both the specific sub-type and the greater genus (can that even be applied to fantasy fiend crossbreeds?) have the same name.

If 'Tiefling' was the only old D&D term re-purposed, there probably wouldn't be so much hub-bub over it, but they did it to lots of stuff, which is what breaks our immersion in the setting.

I erased most of what I had here - but it was kinda pointless and served no positive purpose.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Apr 2013 15:07:56
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2013 :  17:13:31  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They have the same name because that's what people in the setting call them. The Asmodean tiefling constitutes 99% of the tieflings running around in the Realms. There is absolutely no reason you as a DM or a player cannot apply the term *tiefling* to a variant fiend-human, and in fact nowhere in the canon does it say you can't or that people in the setting don't.

Asmodean tieflings ARE tieflings, so the term is aptly applied to them.

Non-Asmodean tieflings are also tieflings, and the term would be aptly applied to them, but they're almost unheard of in rarity. For a non-Asmodean tiefling to be in the Realms requires some interesting backstory, possibly including time-travel, magically-extended lifespan, stasis of one form or another, or plane-hopping.

For instance, I'm not sure Kemp ever uses the term "tiefling" to describe Magadon, but Magadon is clearly descended from a devil lord other than Asmodeus. He doesn't have the typical Asmodean Tiefling features. And yet it we call him a tiefling, it's still an accurate description, even if he doesn't look like an Asmodean tiefling and his powers don't work the same way.

Regardless. Semantic arguments over what term should or should not apply to a tiefling are the province of stuffy sages (who may or may not live in Candlekeep) and are generally completely foreign to the average person in the Realms. The average person in the Realms has probably never heard a story about a tiefling (and if so, it was probably filled with terms like "fiend born," etc), much less actually seen a tiefling in real life.

If confronted with a variant-tiefling (i.e. not Asmodean), that person may or may not have the faintest idea what the creature is. If it looks vaguely like an Asmodean tiefling, it might match the person's conception, so s/he might call it a tiefling, or if it's really variant (i.e. descended from Demogorgan-type demons or with fluffy angel wings and fangs) then s/he might have no idea what to call it, except "RUN!"

The average person on the streets of Waterdeep, the Realms' most cosmopolitan, diverse, forward-thinking city, when faced with a non-Asmodean tiefling would probably also be somewhat confused. S/he *might* think of it as some sort of tiefling, depending on how it looks/acts/functions, or might think of it as something else altogether.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
294 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2013 :  18:25:41  Show Profile  Visit ErinMEvans's Homepage Send ErinMEvans a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm

I can see that Erin. It is also possible our Devil God placed a spell (or something like we might see a retro-virus in Sci-Fi) which over-writes the non-Assie Tiefling's fiendish side to match his template (perhaps even making his Template the Dominate Gene/Trait for this).

Why would he do this?

So that every tiefling would either worship him, fear him or give him notice as their ancestor. Which could boost his divine power, which increase his influence and power on the Mortal Realm, and so on...

Which might explain the 'end' of the Blood War, as the Demons have stopped fighting for now to not only shore themselves up with slipping in the Elemental Chaos (where the Abyss is in at 4ed) but contering Assie's divinity and power grab with the Tieflings.



Exactly. I have to think that all the little weird quirks that cropped up around Baator and the devils are actually calculated grabs for power by Asmodeus, culminating in devouring the divinity of Azuth.

The expanded curse/blessing/retrovirus was my original explanation. But the more I see people missing their variant tieflings, the more I thought it wouldn't be hard to leave a little room. So if you wanted all Asmodean tieflings, that works too. (And definitely gives the Abyss a target...)

www.slushlush.com
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
294 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2013 :  18:28:40  Show Profile  Visit ErinMEvans's Homepage Send ErinMEvans a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I prefer the word "blessing" to "curse". But that's just me.



The glass is half-full. (Of the blood of innocents...):p

I think the difference makes for interesting character arcs. Farideh doesn't like all the bad parts of being an Asmodean tiefling. But given the chance to turn into a human or something? I don't think she would. She is who she is, damn it.

www.slushlush.com
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
294 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2013 :  18:36:28  Show Profile  Visit ErinMEvans's Homepage Send ErinMEvans a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I never said there wasn't room for both types, and I don't mind the new (4e) sub-type, but a problem arises when both the specific sub-type and the greater genus (can that even be applied to fantasy fiend crossbreeds?) have the same name.

If 'Tiefling' was the only old D&D term re-purposed, there probably wouldn't be so much hub-bub over it, but they did it to lots of stuff, which is what breaks our immersion in the setting.



No, no--I understood what you meant there. I wasn't sure if you were saying "This is a thing that I cannot forgive. It's just too much." Or "This is a problem with your explanation." And I figured if it wasn't the latter, maybe someone else thought that out there and I could keep talking! Because really, when I talk about this IRL, I get a politely glazed look from people, followed by, "Wow. Your job is really strange." (My job is awesome, friend.)

I'm not going to tell anyone not to feel the first thing. You do you. We've all got things we're just done with. And I'm not going to defend the original design decisions, because I wasn't there and I don't know why they decided to do that. I could guess, but you could to, so eh. I'm just offering up this one solution for this one word.

Partly because I got to have a linguistics geek-out.

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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
294 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2013 :  18:45:16  Show Profile  Visit ErinMEvans's Homepage Send ErinMEvans a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

For instance, I'm not sure Kemp ever uses the term "tiefling" to describe Magadon, but Magadon is clearly descended from a devil lord other than Asmodeus. He doesn't have the typical Asmodean Tiefling features. And yet it we call him a tiefling, it's still an accurate description, even if he doesn't look like an Asmodean tiefling and his powers don't work the same way.



I think Magadon is technically a cambion, since he's the son of Mephistopheles. He just passes as a tiefling. He's still wouldn't be an Asmodean tiefling, since he was born before Asmodeus's Ascension.

Whether he also carries that curse, and therefore his offspring would be Asmodean tieflings is an interesting question that's entirely in Paul's court. (You don't have to have kids, Mags! Don't do it just because society and maybe your evil father tell you you have to!)

Sidebar: I have always found it amusing that some people can get behind Magadon as not being totally evil, but Lorcan, who is not even descended from an archdevil but is still a half-devil, is way too nice. An interesting example of how actions and appearance have deep ramifications for your characters.

You seduce one teenaged girl to the powers of the Hells and everyone expects you to be the bad guy...

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2013 :  19:09:47  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans

I think Magadon is technically a cambion, since he's the son of Mephistopheles. He just passes as a tiefling. He's still wouldn't be an Asmodean tiefling, since he was born before Asmodeus's Ascension.
Agreed. It's all gradations.

quote:
You seduce one teenaged girl to the powers of the Hells and everyone expects you to be the bad guy...
Depends if she's catholic.

G'night, everybody! Tip your waitress.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1585 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2013 :  19:18:33  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Asmodean Tieflings are Asmodeaus master plan at Eugenics, a devil blooded race that breds pure no matter who they breed with. Think on this One tiefling goes into the mountains and kills a goblin chieftain and takes over that tribe including the females, which he keeps for himself. Within a generation (goblin generation) everyone in that former goblin tribe is now a tiefling, and so they conqueor near by weak gobliniod tribes and breed with thier females. In a handful of generations the gobliniod population of the region would be wiped out and replaced by tieflings. Chilling.

Even none evil tieflings become a weapon for Asmodeaus in that sense.

I will note that God's Blood is not as easily dismissed as other fiendish bloodlines, as the Godblooded feat shows the darkly divine essence lingers even in Asmodean Tieflings with a divine ancestor.

You've done so well with Tieflings Erin, maybe you can tackled the Aasmir/Deva/Aasmon paradox next.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7614 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2013 :  22:58:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Markustay

I never said there wasn't room for both types, and I don't mind the new (4e) sub-type, but a problem arises when both the specific sub-type and the greater genus (can that even be applied to fantasy fiend crossbreeds?) have the same name.

I see much the same thing with the term "elf" being misapplied as an umbrella term for all elven subtypes plus a variety of elf-like creatures (like eladrin) which aren't quite different enough to be generalized as "fey". Arguments about taxonomies seem to hinge largely on different and inconsistent use of basic terminology, exasperated across a number of authors and game editions.

Call them whatever you will ... I personally think fey'ri/daemonfey are really more of a clade than an distinct species, and other elf-fiend offspring must exist elsewhere beyond the Realms, much as the Shadovar are merely a single clan of shades. Their local powers might be great but their populations seem very low - if they are distinct species then they are endangered. Fantasy biology only complicates the issue by forcing redefinition of fundamental terms, in ways which the audience very rarely finds universally agreeable.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
11169 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2013 :  20:17:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Asmodean Tieflings are Asmodeaus master plan at Eugenics, a devil blooded race that breds pure no matter who they breed with. Think on this One tiefling goes into the mountains and kills a goblin chieftain and takes over that tribe including the females, which he keeps for himself. Within a generation (goblin generation) everyone in that former goblin tribe is now a tiefling, and so they conqueor near by weak gobliniod tribes and breed with thier females. In a handful of generations the gobliniod population of the region would be wiped out and replaced by tieflings. Chilling.

Even none evil tieflings become a weapon for Asmodeaus in that sense.

I will note that God's Blood is not as easily dismissed as other fiendish bloodlines, as the Godblooded feat shows the darkly divine essence lingers even in Asmodean Tieflings with a divine ancestor.

You've done so well with Tieflings Erin, maybe you can tackled the Aasmir/Deva/Aasmon paradox next.





So, what this tells me is that tieflings should be captured and magically dissected to figure out what makes this true. I'm thinking the Eldreth Veluuthra would be very interested in the analysis.... as a means to expand Elven influence. Naturally, the Thayans would also be interested in this as a means to keep the Mulan bloodlines pure. Way a great thing to experiment on with slaves. Hmmm, any good gatherings of tieflings that would serve as good raiding points for people from these groups?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
294 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2013 :  22:44:20  Show Profile  Visit ErinMEvans's Homepage Send ErinMEvans a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Asmodean Tieflings are Asmodeaus master plan at Eugenics, a devil blooded race that breds pure no matter who they breed with. Think on this One tiefling goes into the mountains and kills a goblin chieftain and takes over that tribe including the females, which he keeps for himself. Within a generation (goblin generation) everyone in that former goblin tribe is now a tiefling, and so they conqueor near by weak gobliniod tribes and breed with thier females. In a handful of generations the gobliniod population of the region would be wiped out and replaced by tieflings. Chilling.

Even none evil tieflings become a weapon for Asmodeaus in that sense.

I will note that God's Blood is not as easily dismissed as other fiendish bloodlines, as the Godblooded feat shows the darkly divine essence lingers even in Asmodean Tieflings with a divine ancestor.

You've done so well with Tieflings Erin, maybe you can tackled the Aasmir/Deva/Aasmon paradox next.





So, what this tells me is that tieflings should be captured and magically dissected to figure out what makes this true. I'm thinking the Eldreth Veluuthra would be very interested in the analysis.... as a means to expand Elven influence. Naturally, the Thayans would also be interested in this as a means to keep the Mulan bloodlines pure. Way a great thing to experiment on with slaves. Hmmm, any good gatherings of tieflings that would serve as good raiding points for people from these groups?



Neverwinter would be an excellent start. There are enough tieflings there to start kidnapping folks without drawing too much notice. Far from Thay, but then they've got expeditions thereabouts who could have more than one goal.

Farideh and Havilar come from an isolated village in Tymanther called Arush Vayem. It's populated mostly with people who've fled their homelands and has a sizeable percentage of tieflings...which means like a dozen in raw numbers, but still. Not a lot of people to kick up a fuss in a place like that.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2013 :  18:27:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So now I got this picture in my head of Asmodeus being something akin to a hive-mother from the Alien movies.

No matter what they breed with, they all look kinda similar.

And, of course, the thread has got me thinking of new ideas - a hive-mother like Demonic entity... maybe thats where all the demonspawn come from. Unlike a Devil version, these would all look different. Now I'm going borderline Lovecraftian, but we've always had stuff like that, like the Deepspawn.

I just had an idea... are all Tieflings devil-spawn? Maybe the 'they all look alike' variety are Hell-specific, and the ones that all look different (with varying degrees of 'humaness') are demonic in origin. That could mean the one type automatically dislikes the other (although still being partly human, the 'kill on sight' thing may not be as bad). We could have some Bloodwar spilling over into Tieflings. In fact, even the name lends itself to it... Bloodwar....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Shemmy
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Posted - 02 May 2013 :  21:02:54  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I just had an idea... are all Tieflings devil-spawn?



Tieflings as exclusively devil-spawn was exclusively a 4e core/PoL thing. In and of itself it was a really, really bizarre design decision given that the largest trademark feature that tieflings had for their entire history was a wildly variable appearance and myriad potential sources for their bloodlines. Literally any fiend could spawn a tiefling bloodline, and a given tiefling could even have multiple lines of descent.

Additionally they weren't exclusively of human mortal heritage either originally in 2e. The humans only and then specific subtypes for other mortal races was entirely an unfortunate 3e'ism (that I didn't particularly care for except for things like fey'ri which were a specific true-breeding line rather than a blanket case).

It remains to be seen how 5e will handle things, and Pathfinder goes with the 2e conventions.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 02 May 2013 :  22:03:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd always thought of 4E Asmodeus-style tieflings being a knee-jerk response to the overabundance of 3P 3E lore ... some of which, incidentally, was even better than ye olde Planescape treatment of tieflings.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 May 2013 :  01:57:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My ex was definitely a Tiefling... probably an Asmodeon.

She did have a great tail.....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Gyor
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Posted - 03 May 2013 :  02:36:55  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually like Mike Mearls plans for the 5e tiefling, subraces tied to the planes.

So if you prefer a random fiendish mutant like in previous editions, go with say Abyassal or Pandamodium tieflings, you want more orderly go with Infernal tieflings, with other subraces inbetween.

Best solution imo.

BTW should Bladelings be a subrace of tiefling? Thier fluff would support it, at least in 4e.
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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 06 May 2013 :  23:31:40  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Although bladelings and tieflings (and halflings!) may have some similarity in species nomenclature, their initial inceptions otherwise had absolutely nothing in common at all.

A little was said about bladelings in 2E Planescape lore, mostly in Planes of Law where they were described as native to the iron planes of Acheron ... I personally feel that's the best treatment they've received in any D&D product, although it isn't compatible with all 3E lore and certainly needs an overhaul to remain compatible within the framework of 4E lore. Bladelings were just another native oddity of the outer planes which could sometimes (rarely) go elsewhere to cause some trouble - just as the Rakshashas who were also said to be "native" to Acheron - whereas tieflings can exist almost anywhere across the nearly infinite planes and worlds. To me this suggests bladelings would be more alike each other while tieflings would exhibit a great variety in their characteristics (and lineage).

[/Ayrik]
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Gyor
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Posted - 09 May 2013 :  04:54:30  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bladelings in 4e were created by Bane from humans to serve him in the Planes, but got free and now roam the Planes as Mercanaries, I could see that as making sense as a Tiefling subrace, abit one that prefers the Planes to the Prime Material.

Anyway I had a thought. When Mulhorand and Unther were transported to Abier they probably took most of thier Tieflings with them. Would these Tieflings and thier desendants be effected by Asmodeaus' curse/blessing or would they be immune because they were in Abier when it happened not Toril?

This an important question, because Mulhorand and Unther were two of if not the regions with the greatest consentration of Planetouched in the pre 4e realms.

I read that Mulhorand had over 5 million people of which 2 percent were Planetouched.

That's not a large sounding percentage, but out of 5 million people that'd be over a 100,000 planetouched mostly living in cities probably. Now most would be Aasmir, but that'd still Leave plenty of Tieflings. So if Mulhorand comes back that's alot of Tieflings that do not match the 4e Infernal type potentially, it depends if Abier was effected or not.




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ErinMEvans
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USA
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Posted - 09 May 2013 :  18:03:09  Show Profile  Visit ErinMEvans's Homepage Send ErinMEvans a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Bladelings in 4e were created by Bane from humans to serve him in the Planes, but got free and now roam the Planes as Mercanaries, I could see that as making sense as a Tiefling subrace, abit one that prefers the Planes to the Prime Material.

Anyway I had a thought. When Mulhorand and Unther were transported to Abier they probably took most of thier Tieflings with them. Would these Tieflings and thier desendants be effected by Asmodeaus' curse/blessing or would they be immune because they were in Abier when it happened not Toril?

This an important question, because Mulhorand and Unther were two of if not the regions with the greatest consentration of Planetouched in the pre 4e realms.

I read that Mulhorand had over 5 million people of which 2 percent were Planetouched.

That's not a large sounding percentage, but out of 5 million people that'd be over a 100,000 planetouched mostly living in cities probably. Now most would be Aasmir, but that'd still Leave plenty of Tieflings. So if Mulhorand comes back that's alot of Tieflings that do not match the 4e Infernal type potentially, it depends if Abier was effected or not.



While I think that's totally an option, there's a slight hiccup: timing. Asmodeus's curse takes effect beforehe becomes a god, which is after Mystra dies and Azuth is flung into the Nine Hells--about the same time that Abeir and Toril become coterminus. So it's more likely that the curse is in place before the planes overlap and swap territories.

But if that's what you want, there's not actually--to my knowledge--any timeline for Azuth's fall. Maybe it took a while. Maybe Asmo's timing was really perfect and it went Planes cross-->Tiefling curse activates-->Yum, yum, godhood!

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Sightless
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USA
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Posted - 09 May 2013 :  20:08:57  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While going through my taped notes, I’ve come across material, while unrelated to my initial search, may be useful for other DMs. For that reason I am posting it where I think it will be most useful, and where subjects present themselves. The present material deals with breeding, in so far as the activity relates to Fey, tieflings, and elves. The current information is related to the tieflings most directly, but has repercautions for other groups. It should be noted, that this work is non-canonical, and relates directly to the “Fighting for hope” realms setting, particularly to the campaigns of “the searchers,” “The song of the blade,” and “The forest’s leaves are falling.” For those DMs interested in incorporating any of this material into their own campaigns it should be noted that the initial time period is that related to 4e, but can be easily converted to earlier times if the DM so desires. In either case, I hope that some enjoyment can be obtained from the material, Readers note: the material herein is of a mature nature, it discusses the topics of procreation, slavery, and a number of topics that are of a character, which are not meant for children. If the discussion of any of the previously mentioned topics makes you feel uncomfortable, then please stop reading. You have been advised (comments and criticisms are always welcome.)

Third day of the second ride of Nightal 1404 DR [Year of the Sceptered One]

The pirate ship the Hellion, captained by the tiefling Iolkos Neyadis is attacked and captured by the Halthalatyd, captained by Nianna Aldaval, originally out of Evermeet. Do to his use of political favors, Ingmir Cirana, head of house Cirana, is able to slip several of the Hellion’s tiefling crew to private sells for interagation. These crew are later, and very quietly replaced by humans kidnapped out of Luskan, and magically altered to look like the original pirate crew. It is these unfortunate souls that are later exacuted in the place of the pirates; the pirates having been previously smuggled out to house Cirana holdings in Cormanthyr. Eventually, the entire interprise is moved to the “town of peace”, half a days ride south.

The second day of the first ride of Hammer

Amras Silverdalun is commissioned by Ingmir Cirana to examine several tieflings prisoners and determine if there isn’t some biological conponent to them that can be used to help with the “Elvin Problem.” The Elvin problem, simply put is their relatively slow reproductive rates compared with the “lesser races.” To the second circle of Eldreth Veluuthra predominately working out of the city of song, tackling this issue is key to the survivability of both the “true elvin race,” and “true Elvin culture”.

First day of Kythorn

The Qu Eldrevana, or Collar’s of binding are constructed by Olanis Erestir. These magic items can control the body of the wearer by the one that wears the key bracelet. Making them a particularly favored item in the control of prisoners by the Elves.

Fourth day of the first ride of Mirtul 1423 DR [Year of Thundering Hosts]

· A caravan of the Sunrise merchant and transport company is attacked on it’s way to Arable by the Eldreth Veluuthra based in Cormyr. The group is lead by Silontol Olanis, who is greatly disappointed when he learns that there were halflings amongst the caravan, as his anger is entirely directed against humans. Of the original caravan, only the half-elf Rilia Valaromra, the Halflings Asphodel Gilly Rowan and Bell Goldilocks Elanor, niece of the moneylender Adelard Gentlesir Elanor survive. The families of both of these good maidens were slain during the course of the fighting; Asphodel’s husband Balba was slain by the elf Arduval Camring, who was in turn slain by the former by a well placed crossbow shot, before he expired. As for Asphodel’s two sons, Foda & Fosca, they were riding in the wagon belonging to the Elanor family, and subsequently the first to die, when that wagon was consumed by a powerful fireball. This action ending the lives of Bell’s father, Longa; mother, Daisy; brother, Marka; and her three sisters, Lily, Lindo, and Lobelio. Bell herself was spaired this fate, as she was driving one of the caravans wagons, as the hired man was too drunk to do the job proper himself. Whether this miner twist of fate was a blessing or a curse, only the Gods know. The three are sent off to Amras Silverdalun to assist in his experiments; as the halflings are both skilled alcamists, and the three can serve as breeding stock. All three are fitted with collars, and while Bell is suspected of having the ability to access the invisible art, none of her captors are certain of it. Still the presence of the collars and Bell’s unwillingness to escape without her two friends in toe, holds her captive for decades after her initial capture. That, and the other prisoners themselves, as some times desireing to due good creates a cage more inescapable than one that any jailer can make.

Ninth day of the second ride of Flamerule

Adelard hires the Company of the Nine, a well known adventuring party to seek out information as to what happened to the caravan, and to the where abouts of his niece, as he strongly believes she is still alive (thus begins the campaign of the Searchers).

Eighth day of the first ride of Uktar 1445 DR [Year of the Malachite Throne]

After decades of research and experimentation, a partial understanding of tieflings reperduction is obtained by Amras Silverdalun, thanks in large part to the work of Bell. Near to years end, a reliable alcamical elixir is developed that will both ensure increased fertility among females and no matter the race of the partner, at least so Amras clanms, so long as the seed donor is an elf, then the offspring will be an elf. The elixir must be consumed by the male before procreation is planned to take place; preferably no more than one hour before the act. A brief exert from the researchers notes is as follows:

“… after considerable and careful examination of the prisioners, both involving repeated observations of bodily functions, and minipulation of said functions in the preducing of offspring, a full conclusion of tiefling uniformity has been reached. It is clear that oil glands working inside the region of seed production coat that seed directly before release into the female partner. Tests involving human, half elf, and halflings have confirmed this, as uniformity of offspring is not achived when these glands are no longer functioning. From this it took five years to construct a viable substatute involving the alteration to that of an elvan templat. Nature is remarkably complex in some manners and simple in others. Still, as the goal is knowledge and solving a necessary problem, time and reason has found the way… “

These notes, were part of a letter found by the company of the nine shortly before their recovery of the half-elf Rilia Valaromra, and the Halflings Asphodel Gilly Rowan. As for Bell and the Amras are not present. A portle to West Gate is discovered in the buildings basement, The half ogar magi, commonly refered to as Stones, along with the human seer Jedith go through. Months later the two return to arable with Bell in toe, as for the Elf, none knows.

(If anyone has any complaints over this, I shall remove).


In short, I see the issue of their reperduction more of a hormone consequence, some sort of steroid hormone (mineralocorticoid more than likely, which is capable of re-writing DNA, but far more effectively than a virus.

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.

Edited by - Sightless on 09 May 2013 22:23:03
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Rhymn
Acolyte

17 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2013 :  21:54:16  Show Profile Send Rhymn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy

Tieflings as exclusively devil-spawn was exclusively a 4e core/PoL thing. In and of itself it was a really, really bizarre design decision given that the largest trademark feature that tieflings had for their entire history was a wildly variable appearance and myriad potential sources for their bloodlines. Literally any fiend could spawn a tiefling bloodline, and a given tiefling could even have multiple lines of descent.


Agreed. Apparently if I accepted 4e, my favorite tieflings (a Beshaban with antlers and a blue fellow descended from a vrock) would be no more. But I'm told that 4e is all about expanding possibilities, so I must be missing something.

Mystra Lives
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1585 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2013 :  01:06:18  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Bladelings in 4e were created by Bane from humans to serve him in the Planes, but got free and now roam the Planes as Mercanaries, I could see that as making sense as a Tiefling subrace, abit one that prefers the Planes to the Prime Material.

Anyway I had a thought. When Mulhorand and Unther were transported to Abier they probably took most of thier Tieflings with them. Would these Tieflings and thier desendants be effected by Asmodeaus' curse/blessing or would they be immune because they were in Abier when it happened not Toril?

This an important question, because Mulhorand and Unther were two of if not the regions with the greatest consentration of Planetouched in the pre 4e realms.

I read that Mulhorand had over 5 million people of which 2 percent were Planetouched.

That's not a large sounding percentage, but out of 5 million people that'd be over a 100,000 planetouched mostly living in cities probably. Now most would be Aasmir, but that'd still Leave plenty of Tieflings. So if Mulhorand comes back that's alot of Tieflings that do not match the 4e Infernal type potentially, it depends if Abier was effected or not.



While I think that's totally an option, there's a slight hiccup: timing. Asmodeus's curse takes effect beforehe becomes a god, which is after Mystra dies and Azuth is flung into the Nine Hells--about the same time that Abeir and Toril become coterminus. So it's more likely that the curse is in place before the planes overlap and swap territories.

But if that's what you want, there's not actually--to my knowledge--any timeline for Azuth's fall. Maybe it took a while. Maybe Asmo's timing was really perfect and it went Planes cross-->Tiefling curse activates-->Yum, yum, godhood!



Yum, Yum, godhood? LMAO.

Divinity does it taste like chicken?

That's what I like about you Erin you've got a good sense of humour.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2013 :  05:29:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Bladelings in 4e were created by Bane from humans to serve him in the Planes, but got free and now roam the Planes as Mercanaries, I could see that as making sense as a Tiefling subrace, abit one that prefers the Planes to the Prime Material.

Anyway I had a thought. When Mulhorand and Unther were transported to Abier they probably took most of thier Tieflings with them. Would these Tieflings and thier desendants be effected by Asmodeaus' curse/blessing or would they be immune because they were in Abier when it happened not Toril?

This an important question, because Mulhorand and Unther were two of if not the regions with the greatest consentration of Planetouched in the pre 4e realms.

I read that Mulhorand had over 5 million people of which 2 percent were Planetouched.

That's not a large sounding percentage, but out of 5 million people that'd be over a 100,000 planetouched mostly living in cities probably. Now most would be Aasmir, but that'd still Leave plenty of Tieflings. So if Mulhorand comes back that's alot of Tieflings that do not match the 4e Infernal type potentially, it depends if Abier was effected or not.



While I think that's totally an option, there's a slight hiccup: timing. Asmodeus's curse takes effect beforehe becomes a god, which is after Mystra dies and Azuth is flung into the Nine Hells--about the same time that Abeir and Toril become coterminus. So it's more likely that the curse is in place before the planes overlap and swap territories.

But if that's what you want, there's not actually--to my knowledge--any timeline for Azuth's fall. Maybe it took a while. Maybe Asmo's timing was really perfect and it went Planes cross-->Tiefling curse activates-->Yum, yum, godhood!

On the other hand, 4e begins a century after 3e ends (and probably more then a century when 5e hits).

Thus, whatever 'curse' turned all the random, different tielfings into a unified, cohesive (cookie-cutter) type may have one hundred years to take effect - it may have even been a generational thing. So, although the seed may have been planted before the tielflings got transplanted, the Asmodeon 'virus' (or whatever we want to call this genetic trigger) may have petered-out in Abeir, where Asmodeus has no power.

So not only could 5e possibly have both types of Tielfings, but it is theoretically possible for a player to start off with a an old-school Tielfling (tiny, barely discernible horns and/or fangs, maybe a vestigial tail, etc) and have them transform (over time - the 'Tier' system) into the newer 4e Asmodeon post-type. The reasoning being that now that those bloodlines are back on Toril, Asmodeus holds power there and the curse kicks in (again).

Or a player could choose not to embrace their 'inner archfiend' and stick with the less conspicuous form (which probably doesn't come with all the cool powers the evolved form does). MY GOD... I think I just turned Tieflings into Pokémon.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 May 2013 05:30:38
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe

Germany
479 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2013 :  08:18:20  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Bladelings in 4e were created by Bane from humans to serve him in the Planes, but got free and now roam the Planes as Mercanaries, I could see that as making sense as a Tiefling subrace, abit one that prefers the Planes to the Prime Material.




The Bane you speak of is for CORE DnD, not Forgotten Realms, they are not one and the same.
I am not aware the Forgotten Realms Bane has Bladelings.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2013 :  13:04:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another of 4e's 'gems'.

"Let's have every term in D&D have at least two meanings."

5e should = one world/one rules. Everything else just becomes a mess. If there has to be a cosmology, then the cosmology itself needs to be the core setting... not some random world in an near-infinite Prime Material.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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