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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2009 : 19:15:18
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Well, I'm slowly catching up with Wooly. 
Introduction: My first thought is that the "Countless Worlds" cosmology is a lot more like the 4e cosmology than the Great Wheel or even the Great Tree of 3e FR. I think it would also fit pretty well into the Maelstrom part of Golarion's Great Beyond cosmology. I do think a lot of the detailed stuff fits in the more traditional cosmologies like the Great Wheel, though. In my personal interpretation of the Inner Planes (keep in mind that I don't know a lot of Planescape or SpellJammer), the crystal spheres of SJ are something like layers of the Material plane, so I would use the Underland and Ethereal Sea as connections between the crystal spheres. The Silken Ship seems a lot like a SpellJamming ship to me. The Nexus could be a demiplane somewhere among the Outer planes. The Celestial River seems similar to the Styx in some ways.
Avidarel: Seems like a crystal sphere to me. Wooly's given a lot of good comments, so I won't say much. I was pleasantly surprised to see monsters from other 3rd party sources in the "Inhabitants" table. One quibble I'd have is that I think the memories of starlight are really outsiders, since they're intrinsically tied to a plane/layer and a metaphysical concept (light). But I think they're trying to stay away from that philosophy, and aberration is an ok choice. Despite the mid-level adventure options, I think this would be a great place for a high-level adventure. If you have the WotC Elder Evils book, this could be a layer destroyed by Atropus (which came up in the Running the Realms forum).
Carrigmoor: Like Wooly, I also think this is more of a Material Plane location. But I like the decaying city as much as the prosperous one. There's a lot of adventure possibility here.
Curnorost: I think Wooly's said it all here. I found it hard to fit this in my perception of the planes.
Deluer: I love this plane! Well, I'd probably make it a section of the Elemental Plane of earth, carved out by the goddess Eddelis (and I'd say it's her power, through the mephit priests) that forces people to the arrival points. I'm also thinking that this would be a great place to go as a follow-up to the Diplomacy adventure in one of the late paper Dungeon mags (where one of the dueling diplomats is a rather silly xorn). I'd just need to come up with the adventure. 
More to come... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:19:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Underland -- sort of a interplanar Underdark -- could easily be under some or all of the planes of the Wheel, as well as the Prime.
The Silken Ship -- and possibly several similar ships -- could easily sail around the planes of the Wheel. Like the Voidjammers described in Dragon 159, it's something that could present an alternate method of traveling amongst the planes. It could make planar travel easier for low-level PCs; a planar ship could even visit the PC's homeworld and be how they get into the planes. Ships like this could also give PCs (or DMs) a way to avoid Sigil, though I'm not sure why someone would want to.
The Underlands were one of the most intriguing things in the book for me, probably because it reminds me of Ningauble's caverns on a really large scale. Heck, Ningauble's caves could just be an opening to a particularly well connected branch of the Underlands.
One of the things that was interesting to me about the Silken Ship is that you could use that as a rationale to move between "separated" cosmologies. In other words, if the Great Wheel is one cosmology, instead of shoe horning everything in, say, the Great Beyond from Paizo's cosmology into the Great Wheel, you could have the Silken Ship being one of the few "cross-cosmology" links that allow for travel between cosmologies. Then again, I'd probably have the Underlands serve the same purpose.
The definition of "dimension" was also kind of interesting to me, and I'd probably amend its use a bit. I'd view a "dimension" as something not connected "naturally" to a given cosmology. So the Great Beyond would be an alternate dimension to the Great Wheel, while the Nine Hells would be a Plane within the cosmology of both (though a different version of each).
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:24:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Faraenyl
Faraenyl is another version of Faerie. In fact, in the description, it specifically says that Faraenyl should appear to be "a generic faerie setting". They add an interesting twist to it, and that's the only thing that really saved this entry for me.
Going with the "alternate dimension" theory, it could be interesting to have PCs run into this version of Faerie after they became familiar with the more traditional version of it, especially if something happened that caused them to think that they were actually in the version of Faerie they were accustomed to.
Sort of like a fantasy version of Sliders.
Also, the whole "fey building a machine to preserve their world" thing, upon looking back at it, reminds me a bit of Hellboy II.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 17:47:43
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Burning Shadows of Kin-Li'in
So Kin-Li'in is a kind of hell, and it's definitely not the place to build a summer home. It's mostly usable as written, and it's definitely a plane. That said, there are two things I'd definitely change, discussed below, and a third I might change, discussed a bit further on.
One is the Shadow Plague. The entire plane has been infected with this plague -- what is it with these writers and that idea? How does something that isn't alive become infected? I'd tweak the idea somehow to make it something other than a planar infection. Maybe it's some planar effect willed into existence by Beligos, the former ruler of the plane... Maybe it's the result of a power struggle between some power of fire and some power of ice...
Anyway, the Shadow Plague is kinda nifty. Every day that a living being is in Kin-Li'in, their shadow might become detached from them and attack them. If they are slain by their shadow, the shadow becomes a chaotic evil duplicate of them, with all of their memories, powers, and possessions. If the shadow is instead destroyed, the living being no longer has a shadow while within Kin-Li'in. They suffer a morale penalty for this, instead.
The other thing I'd change is the terrorites, the dominant demons of the plane. There's actually nothing wrong with the race; they're pretty freaking nasty. I just can't stand the name "terrorite". It sounds like something a cheesy cartoon villain would come up with. Considering the names of all the other fiendish races, the name "terrorite" is pretty weak.
Kin-Li'in is an entirely subterranean plane. It's nothing but caverns and tunnels, and these change on a pretty regular basis. The local fiends aren't bothered by this, since they simply teleport around. Anyone without that ability is stewed when it comes time to travel within this plane, though. It can be done, you've just got to deal with hostile terrain and hostile inhabitants of that terrain.
Speaking of hostile terrain... If being in an ever-changing underground isn't bad enough, there are the geysers. These geysers are all throughout the plane, and can appear anywhere -- including walls and the ceiling. They erupt unexpectedly, and the littlest ones do 5d6 points of damage -- the really nasty ones do 20d6! And these things are so prevalent that for every few minutes of movement, you've got to try to dodge them.
Another locale on this plane is the Fallen Palace. This is the largest cavern, and it's where Beligos, the plane's former ruler, had his palace. He was slain by adventurers a decade ago, so the palace is now in rubble. No one has replaced him as ruler, so the power remains up for grabs. Beligos was worshipped as a god by some orcs, and there's a group of them in the plane that wants to bring him back.
And he's not entirely gone, either. A bit of his essence remains in a small rock called Beligos' Keystone (it should be Beligos's; why can't people get it right when there's an 's' on the end of a word?). This little rock has a couple of magical abilities, and some potential for bringing Beligos back.
The local demons don't pay attention to gods, they worship the plane itself. They fall into two factions: one group worships the fiery side of the plane, and the other group worships the icy side. The two groups are pretty serious about this; a weak demon will attack a stronger one, if it's of the opposing faith. Both groups have a single "holy" spot in the plane they venerate, and both groups can get up to 3rd level clerical spells from this veneration.
I've never really like the whole veneration of a concept thing; my dislike for that goes back to reading the 2E Complete Priest's Handbook. I'm not sure I'd leave these fonts and their veneration as the source of power; it might be more interesting to say that there's a major power of fire and a major power of ice (maybe demon lords, maybe deities) working behind the scenes, trying to take over the plane. Beligos isn't statted out or even discussed all that much; it could be that he was some unique mixture of both (maybe a spawn of an ice demon and a fire demon, or something similar), and that's why the plane has both features. Another idea is that the whole plane is some sort of cosmic wager between powers of fire and powers of ice; they could have created Beligos and the plane as a place where fire and ice were balanced, to see which could come out on top.
The most powerful entity in the plane is a terrorite named Xar-el; one of the things that gives him power is that he has an artifact called the angel's eye. The angel's eye is basically the opposite of Beligos' keystone, though, oddly, it also allows its wielder to make a suggestion to a demon. The angel's eye is the distilled essence of an angel, and it was created by a slaadi. Xar-el is nasty, and wants to spread the Shadow Plague to other planes.
The most interesting inhabitant of the plane, in my opinion, is the Awakened One. It's an almost-totally featureless humanoid sleeping in a hidden cave; being approached makes it wake up. It has no alignment, no abilities, no memories, total immunity to magic, and will reappear, intact, if destroyed. The only real feature on the Awakened One is a small depression on its chest, just the right size for either the angel's eye or Beligos' keystone. If either one is placed in the depression, the Awakened One begins an hour-long transformation. At the end of that hour, the artifact is gone, and the Awakened One is now either Beligos himself, fully restored (assuming Beligos' keystone was used) or it becomes a solar (assuming the angel's eye was used) who wants to make Kin-Li'in into a happy place.
This plane quite well functions as some sort of hell. But while it does have some interesting features, it simply doesn't grab me, at least not at the moment. I might come back to that cosmic wager idea, though, because I think that using that idea gives the whole place a lot of potential.
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 13:53:02
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Continuing my commentary:
Dendri: Yup, another SJ location rather than a classic plane, but I like it pretty well. It's worth noting above that aranea, creepy as they may be, have the same alignment as humans (N) in 3.X, and the grimlocks, elves, and shrubgoblins they pushed out are all various shades of evil, so it may be that the pushing was done somewhat in self-defense. In any case, I think Dendri is a pretty good example of how to run a formian invasion campaign, and the option to play aranea in the resistance is a nice touch.
Faraenyl: Not my favorite, but I'm just not so much into the "mysterious fey" schtick. The idea of a steampunk Faerie is pretty good, though, I have to admit.
Almost done with kin-li'in... |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 04:12:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And he's not entirely gone, either. A bit of his essence remains in a small rock called Beligos' Keystone (it should be Beligos's; why can't people get it right when there's an 's' on the end of a word?). This little rock has a couple of magical abilities, and some potential for bringing Beligos back.
Actually, it isn't necessarily wrong. My 12th grade English teacher told me that you use s' without another s on the end when speaking about a great historical figure. For example, Moses would become Moses'. It would have to be a truly great figure well known and long gone to get that kind of treatment however. Though I could see some kind of demon lord demanding that kind of recognition (assuming that little grammatical details matter to them. ). |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:22:23
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| Kin Li'in: If the traditional Abyss has an infinite number of layers, this would fit right in. I would absolutely use this, maybe even as written. To add to Wooly's review, I noticed that the Shadow Plague is actually a curse or something created by the terrorite demons as an extension of their own ability to animate shadows. I am also not a fan of worshiping concepts, so I probably wouldn't give the "priests" actual cleric spells, but it might be amusing to see demons fighting over fire vs cold. I do wish that Xar-el were more than just a standard terrorite with the planar warden template -- if he's special enough to be the warden, he should at least have elite stats or advanced HD or something... But overall, a good layer for the Abyss, which might be one of the "overlooked" layers for most people. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 19:28:27
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Can't believe I hadn't noticed this thread sooner.
Definately one of my favorite 3rd-party sources - I use The Underland A LOT, including in some Homebrew-lore I helped develop for the Elven Netbook project - not actually calling it "the Underland" of course - just alluded to a possible 'deep connection' between the various worlds (to help explain how the FR Drow know of - and possibly have contact with - Erelhei-Cinlu, and also how the Drow spread outward from Toril - their 'world of creation').
Definately a great source, and it 'feels' like a 2e Planescape book. I don't do 'planer' at all, but I still treasure this addition to my lore.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The definition of "dimension" was also kind of interesting to me, and I'd probably amend its use a bit. I'd view a "dimension" as something not connected "naturally" to a given cosmology. So the Great Beyond would be an alternate dimension to the Great Wheel, while the Nine Hells would be a Plane within the cosmology of both (though a different version of each).
I agree with this as well, and think of it in much the same way.
In fact, I've even easily reconciled 4e's cosmology with 3e and even pre-3e, just by saying the 'GateTowns' were really just that - literally gates to dimensions that weren't actually anchored to the Great Wheel in any material way. In 3e, scholars mistakenly thought the planes were 'physically' connected, but by 4e they realized their mistake - its really that simple.
As far as I'm concerned, no plane actually physically connects with another - there is always a gate involved, and two planes that appear to be joined could just have an enormous thousand-mile wide gate between them, when in reality they could exist on opposite ends of the multiverse. And by the same token, two planes that practically 'over-lap' (whatever the hell that actually means scientifically) could have NO portals connecting them - the fabric of reality seperating them could be paper-thin, and yet they would be as far apart a two planes existing in completely seperate realities.
Its all about perception - so Arvandor could easily be considered 'part-of' Olympus (the plane), and also 'part-of' the Great Tree of FR, because the reality is that it exists on it's own, and just has large connections to those 'other realms' (in the case of Olympus, the gate would be continent-spanning). This would explain how it could exist in the over-cosmology of the wheel, and yet still be part of each individual cosmology.
The one 'caveat' being that 'primes' exiting the plane by the same route will always return to their plane of origin - only by purposefully traveling to an alternate prime worlds 'gate' could they use the plane as a route to other worlds - and most divine Realms (like Arvandor) would have such access blocked (Gates only being accessable to folks from those worlds, or with permission). A massive gate like the one that links Arvandor to Olympus would usually be kept in 'free passage' mode (hence the confusion about them being the same plane). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2009 16:44:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 22:16:54
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Okay, I've fallen a bit behind, here... LotRO has become quite the timesink for me. 
The Lizard Kingdoms
This is another one that's more of a location in the Prime than a plane... The Lizard Kingdoms exist on an island -- it's a big, continent-sized island, but it's still just one island. It could be stretched into a demiplane or plane quite easily, though, simply by making the sea either endless or looping (so that if you sail due north away from the island for more than a few days, for example, you suddenly find yourself approaching the island from the south). It could also be dropped on an existing campaign world, in place of an undescribed continent -- though you might need an explanation for how dinosaurs survived. And lastly, it could work as a world or moon in the Spelljammer setting. Whichever works better for you.
The Lizard Kingdoms is a variation on the typical "Lost World" concept. It's the same in that dinosaurs are still around, but it's a variation in that the idea of dinosaurs still being around is carried out to its logical conclusion. The typical Lost World has dinosaurs coexisting with culturally primitive but physically modern humans, and ruins of ancient societies are scattered around. But here's the rub -- if dinosaurs didn't die out, then they still filled all their ecological niches. And if they still filled those niches, then there wasn't room for competing animals -- particularly mammals -- to evolve.
And that's the idea behind the Lizard Kingdoms. The dominant races are the "scalefolk" (kobolds, lizard men, lisaurs, and troglodytes) and the "hivefolk" (mantisfolk, beefolk, wasp warriors, and formians). These races basically do what the civilized folk in other worlds do.
Humans, dwarves, and goblins are present in the Lizard Kingdoms, but not as we know them. Humans are furry, nocturnal, and nimble in trees -- and they're the size of halflings, elsewhere. Their culture is like that of goblins, elsewhere. Dwarves are still miners and diggers, but they're 18 to 24 inches tall, and are held in about the same regard as orcs are elsewhere. Goblins are the most successful of the three races, mostly due to their breeding rates, but are still a footnote in the larger populace.
I'm not going into the history and locales of the Lizard Kingdoms, but they seem reasonably well thought out.
In addition to dinosaurs never having died out, there aren't many successful mammals. So a lot of the ecological niches are filled by dinosaurs or insects, instead of what we're used to -- dryads appear as snakes instead of leafy girls, for example, and instead of dogs, the Lizard Kingdoms have pony-sized lizards. Lisaurs, which I mentioned earlier, are this world's version of centaurs -- replace the human half with a dire kobold (a human-sized kobold, described in this section), and the horse half with a lizard, and you've got the lisaur.
Some people will be particularly happy to know that velociraptors are statted out in this entry, too.
This place is pretty much usable exactly as it's written. And I really like this one, too. 
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 22:50:29
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The Maze
This one is definitely a plane.
So this plane consists of a small city, with portals instead of regular wooden gates. The portals lead to pathways that cross planes and go to a whole bunch of different spots.
The town itself is nameless, and seems to exist mainly to support people traveling the pathways of the Maze. Just about everything adventurers need can be found here -- save for any kind of divine assistance. The air is hazy, the sky is an endless black, and the town's 5000 inhabitants live in relative harmony with one another. Crime is virtually unknown. The structues in the town repair themselves. The streets absorb waste and filth. It's posited that the town itself is a living entity.
At odd intervals, though, the Days of Rage and Poison occur. During these times, everybody in the town is pissed at everyone else, and an insult can lead to mortal combat (toasty!). It's not unknown for open warfare between families to occur. And then -- sometimes in an instant -- the Days end, and everything goes back to being hunky-dory.
The pathways... Leading from the portals are pathways. The pathways are all different, going to different destinations, with differing types of terrain, challenges, and treasure at the end. Most of the pathways lead to treasure, but the treasure is always different -- it could be gold, or information, or magic.
The pathways are unbreakable; you're either going towards the end of the path or back towards the beginning -- you can't leave the path en route. Sometimes, other critters can get in, but you can't get out. The pathways have varying widths, but are always wide enough for a fully grown human to be comfortable. Whatever the environment of the terrain surrounding the pathway, the travellers are kept comfortable; they don't have to worry about atmosphere or temperature, even in space or underwater.
There are secrets of the Maze, but those who learn the secrets always disappear.
The truth of the Maze and the town is that both are constructs. They exist only in the mind and dreams of the angel Sophiel, who has been captured by the demon Prince Marruzat. The demons get their jollies by luring and enticing mortals into the pathways, so that the demons can have fun by stalking and killing the mortals. Prince Marruzat mandates that this only happens in the pathways, he personally nails any demon who dares enter the town.
Marruzat and his buddies are also manipulating the sleeping Sophiel. It's their actions that cause Sophiel to create the pathways; he thinks he's projecting himself across the planes. Every now and again he comes partway out of it; this is what causes the Days of Rage and Poison. The town exists within his mind, so this is the reason the inhabitants all place nice and the town maintains itself.
I didn't care for this one. The town and the sample pathways all felt generic to me. Other than the fact that it's all in an angel's mind, there wasn't anything that really grabbed me about this plane. Not only that, but it seems that a town and multiple pathways across the planes are simply too much to have come just from the mind of an angel.
Me, I'd do some tweaking. I'd make the town a physical location, though still in a demiplane. The pathways and the rest would be pretty much the same, though I'd prolly tweak the pathways somewhat -- maybe make them a little less likely to cross all of time and space, and a little easier to leave. And I'd put it all in the mind (or maybe the divine realm) of a sleeping (perhaps nearly dead) deity. The demons could still be around, and in fact, their ultimate goal could be the corruption of the deific mind.
This plane is more a concept than a workable plane, to me. It has potential, but not quite as written. Had the designers taken a different angle on it, I'd've liked it more.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 23:13:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Can't believe I hadn't noticed this thread sooner.
Definately one of my favorite 3rd-party sources - I use The Underland A LOT, including in some Homebrew-lore I helped develop for the Elven Netbook project - not actually calling it "the Underalnd" of course - just alluded to a possible 'deep connection' between the various worlds (to help explain how the FR Drow know of - and possibly have contact with - Erelhei-Cinlu, and also how the Drow spread outward from Toril - their 'world of creation').
Definately a great source, and it 'feels' like a 2e Planescape book. I don't do 'planer' at all, but I still treasure this edition to my lore.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The definition of "dimension" was also kind of interesting to me, and I'd probably amend its use a bit. I'd view a "dimension" as something not connected "naturally" to a given cosmology. So the Great Beyond would be an alternate dimension to the Great Wheel, while the Nine Hells would be a Plane within the cosmology of both (though a different version of each).
I agree with this as well, and think of it in much the same way.
In fact, I've even easily reconciled 4e's cosmology with 3e and even pre-3e, just by saying the 'GateTowns' were really just that - literally gates to dimensions that weren't actually anchored to the Great Wheel in any material way. In 3e, scholars mistakenly thought the planes were 'physically' connected, but by 4e they realized their mistake - its really that simple.
As far as I'm concerned, no plane actually physically connects with another - there is always a gate involved, and two planes that appear to be joined could just have an enormous thousand-mile wide gate between them, when in reality they could exist on opposite ends of the multiverse. And by the same token, two planes that practically 'over-lap' (whatever the hell that actually means scientifically) could have NO portals connecting them - the fabric of reality seperating them could be paper-thin, and yet they would be as far apart a two planes existing in completely seperate realities.
Its all about perception - so Arvandor could easily be considered 'part-of' Olympus (the plane), and also 'part-of' the Great Tree of FR, because the reality is that it exists on it's own, and just has large connections to those 'other realms' (in the case of Olympus, the gate would be continent-spanning). This would explain how it could exist in the over-cosmology of the wheel, and yet still be part of each individual cosmology.
The one 'caveat' being that 'primes' exiting the plane by the same route will always return to their plane of origin - only by purposefully traveling to an alternate prime worlds 'gate' could they use the plane as a route to other worlds - and most divine Realms (like Arvandor) would have such access blocked (Gates only being accessable to folks from those worlds, or with permission). A massive gate like the one that links Arvandor to Olympus would usually be kept in 'free passage' mode (hence the confusion about them being the same plane).
I gotta say I like Mark's ideas, and was leaning in a similar direction, myself. I was mainly leaning that way for two reasons -- 1) if you have infinite planes, there could not, by definition, be any borders, and 2)having borders and a rigidly defined structure leaves little room for playing around. Mark's idea, among other things, allows for various other planes to be dropped into the Great Wheel, without causing any problems. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 23:25:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Can't believe I hadn't noticed this thread sooner.
Definately one of my favorite 3rd-party sources - I use The Underland A LOT, including in some Homebrew-lore I helped develop for the Elven Netbook project - not actually calling it "the Underalnd" of course - just alluded to a possible 'deep connection' between the various worlds (to help explain how the FR Drow know of - and possibly have contact with - Erelhei-Cinlu, and also how the Drow spread outward from Toril - their 'world of creation').
Definately a great source, and it 'feels' like a 2e Planescape book. I don't do 'planer' at all, but I still treasure this edition to my lore.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The definition of "dimension" was also kind of interesting to me, and I'd probably amend its use a bit. I'd view a "dimension" as something not connected "naturally" to a given cosmology. So the Great Beyond would be an alternate dimension to the Great Wheel, while the Nine Hells would be a Plane within the cosmology of both (though a different version of each).
I agree with this as well, and think of it in much the same way.
In fact, I've even easily reconciled 4e's cosmology with 3e and even pre-3e, just by saying the 'GateTowns' were really just that - literally gates to dimensions that weren't actually anchored to the Great Wheel in any material way. In 3e, scholars mistakenly thought the planes were 'physically' connected, but by 4e they realized their mistake - its really that simple.
As far as I'm concerned, no plane actually physically connects with another - there is always a gate involved, and two planes that appear to be joined could just have an enormous thousand-mile wide gate between them, when in reality they could exist on opposite ends of the multiverse. And by the same token, two planes that practically 'over-lap' (whatever the hell that actually means scientifically) could have NO portals connecting them - the fabric of reality seperating them could be paper-thin, and yet they would be as far apart a two planes existing in completely seperate realities.
Its all about perception - so Arvandor could easily be considered 'part-of' Olympus (the plane), and also 'part-of' the Great Tree of FR, because the reality is that it exists on it's own, and just has large connections to those 'other realms' (in the case of Olympus, the gate would be continent-spanning). This would explain how it could exist in the over-cosmology of the wheel, and yet still be part of each individual cosmology.
The one 'caveat' being that 'primes' exiting the plane by the same route will always return to their plane of origin - only by purposefully traveling to an alternate prime worlds 'gate' could they use the plane as a route to other worlds - and most divine Realms (like Arvandor) would have such access blocked (Gates only being accessable to folks from those worlds, or with permission). A massive gate like the one that links Arvandor to Olympus would usually be kept in 'free passage' mode (hence the confusion about them being the same plane).
I gotta say I like Mark's ideas, and was leaning in a similar direction, myself. I was mainly leaning that way for two reasons -- 1) if you have infinite planes, there could not, by definition, be any borders, and 2)having borders and a rigidly defined structure leaves little room for playing around. Mark's idea, among other things, allows for various other planes to be dropped into the Great Wheel, without causing any problems.
Infinity is a difficult concept, especially in PLANESCAPE. We seem to have all kinds of different types of infinity out there, and often we see quite small and insignificant things [at least at a glance] having an effect on something that is infinite.
Planes slide, gods die, and reality is shaped by people's thoughts and beliefs. None of this is particularly logical in our world.
Infinity may be arguable, but it's a good strong argument.
Case 1: The planes are known to stretch on demand.
Powers create their realms as big as they like. Even if it is difficult to prove that individual realms are infinite, there is an awful lot of gods, and the planes seem to be able to accommodate each and every one of them easily.
Case 2: Infinity is immeasurable, and so are the planes.
There is no way to measure distance on the planes, except in a metaphorical way. It just doesn't happen. All trips in the Outlands take a random amount of time, depending on how focused you are. Trips in the Grey Waste don't depend on distance at all, and neither do trips in Elysium. Distance is defined by belief, and belief is not an easily quantifiable resource. People believe in infinite distances. Since belief = power, infinity is possible.
Even if a single individual could never *personally* experience infinity, there is always a new path for him to walk between two sites in a single plane. That suggest that there is *potential* infinity, never mind actual, since that is unprovable.
Case 3: The Outer Planes must be infinite if there are an infinite number of Prime worlds.
If you assume that each prime world is similar in size to our universe, then you have an infinite number of infinite prime worlds. Even if the number of primes are finite, a single infinite prime world would be enough. Even if the wasn't a single infinite prime world, the *idea* of infinity could exist in the Outer planes, which would be actual reality there.
Case 4: Infinity is a "fake" concept, anyway.
The Astral doesn't even have space. Yet it is infinite in the sense that a person could never visit it all.
Even the smallest units can be broken down, mathematically, even if they are finite for us to experience. We know that, logically, the turtle must always travel half the distance between the two point before travelling it all, and that the distance can always be divided more and more. Therefore, the turtle should never arrive...yet we know that it does (Xeno's contradiction).
So the end result is: we can argue infinity, but never really prove it. We can *have* infinity, but never actually experience it. Yet by believing that things are finite, we make them so *in our minds*.
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 17:14:58
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| IIRC Douglas Adams described the Magrathean's factory floor as 'really, really, really, really, really, really big; which depicts infinity much better than infinity itself which is rather dull'. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 17:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
<snip> So the end result is: we can argue infinity, but never really prove it. We can *have* infinity, but never actually experience it. Yet by believing that things are finite, we make them so *in our minds*.
Right, and we are all on the same page.
In my model, if someone were to 'walk around' the MASSIVE gate between Arvandor and Olympus - no easy task, considering it spans the entire continent - they could literaly see more of the plane they are on on the other side! It is because the gate is so large - and probably only ends out at sea - that most normal folks don't even realize it's a gate they could 'go around' - from all appearances, it just looks like a continuation of the plane they are on.
Scholars (in my model) would only list planes as being 'seperate' where clear divisions exist - where the terrain and types of flora and fauna encountered change dramatically. If the change is gradual (these gates could have 'depth' as well - like the conduits), and the stuff on 'the other side' is the same, or at least very similar to, the stuff on the viewing side, it would be damn hard for anyone but a god to figure-out it was a portal at all (if a mage cast a detect magic on the portal - the edges of it would beyond his vision, and therefore beyond the range of the spell).
I actually used the idea from the Realms cosmology and just 'broadened' it a little. In there, a mortal (prime-worlder) could not enter one of the planes and then go to another - he (or she) must first go back to Toril and 'move outward' once a again. At first I hated that concept (and the Great Tree itself), but when I thought about it, it helps explain-away why a lot of Primers go to the Wheel in the first place before traveling to other worlds.
Most planes - and especially 'godly Realms' - are one-way only for Primers; it gets 'built in' to the rules of the Plane. You leave the way you came in. Ergo, you could go to speak to Corellon in Arvandor, and be standing next to someone from Greyhawk with the same idea, but when you both leave - even if by the same 'door' - you both wind-up back on the world of your origin.
Whoever is in charge of the plane (like the Dark Lords of Ravenloft) could modify the rules for the portals at will, meaning they could easily allow a Torillian primer to exit onto Oerth... but only if the gods (or whoever runnig the plane) allow this breach of protocal. Of course other, non-primeworld gates would exist, and allow cross-planer travel (like the Gate-towns), but primes would have to know of these, and most would only be aware of "the path they came by".
Another fun thing to do is play with the rules of each individual Plane. Suppose most return a Primer to their 'world of origin', but some merely shunt someone back to their 'point of entry'? If that is the case, a Primer looking to get back to his own world (after a portal mishap?) finds a way to Arvandor (or wherever) and then goes to exit the plane assuming he will wind-up back on Toril... but gets shifted back to wherever he just came from instead. 
Now, picture doing this to someone who has spent some time in Ravenloft - they find a way to an 'Outer Plane' and figure they will simply exit the plane and 'be home'.
But when they do, they find themselves right-back in Ravenloft. Thats a little cruel, even for me, but I'm sure some ebil DMs could have fun with that.
A smart player would first find the 'powers in charge', and ask for a 'Writ of Free Passage' so that they could go home instead (The 'writ' would be a type of single-use Planer Key).
This sort of Cosmological Model becomes the most important when you take into consideration the various Hells - just about every plane leads to them (usually through death), and yet 'primes' - even just their spirits - will always find their way back to the right world.
Further Elaboration...
Also, you can fold the concept of 'thin regions' onto this, where simpler spells can open doorways between two worlds - kind of like 'permanent conjunctions'. In these areas, it is much easier to pass throught he 'Planer Veil' (I have assumed one such region in the Hordelands, to account for certain things). basically you have yourself a weak-spot in the fabric of reality at that point (which could also 'tear', like what happened in EiH).
That added-on piece of lore explains why certain Fiends (and Celestials) are pre-disposed toward certain prime-worlds. The nearest weak-spot to their 'home' in the Outer Planes could lead to a certain world. Rather then cross another Fiend's 'territory', they just 'mess with' whichever world is easiest for them to get to.
Another fun thing to add on top of that is the concept that these 'thin spots' can be artificially created - years and years of 'constant traffic' between two points causes the veil to become thinner and thinner, and eventually 'rip'. That means the 'thin spot' in the Hordelnds (my Homebrew) was either caused by the Imaskari, or exploited by them after being created by an earlier race (the Batrachi?)
Just some of my 'Planer Musings' I thought I'd share - the bizarre thing is, I NEVER run off-world scenarios. I just like to think about this stuff a lot.
A little more 'On Topic':
The Lizard Kingdoms sounds like a good substitute for Osse; especially considering we don't know a whole lot about it. Of course, the Realms already has dinosaurs (AND primitive mammals), and that continent as-is conflicts somewhat with the one NPC we know is from there, but it would still work well in that region. Could even be the original Sarrukh homeland. 
As for The Maze - it just seems like a rather cheap way to add a dungeon-style scenario into a set of planer adventures. It almost has that '4e feel', which isn't exactly complimentary (the whole "Just add your own lore" presentation, rather then true details). I do like Wooly's God-angle though, and thats the way I would have went as well. In fact, I would have made it a dead god of Mazes (Minotaurian?), and add-in a least one exit to both the plane of Dreams (which in my cosmology connects to Faerie) and the Nighmare Lands of Ravenloft (one of those 'Dream Spheres' from that boxed-set seem a perfect angle for this set-up).
Despte its fairly lack-luster presentation, it is still usable with a few tweaks, as Wooly has already stated. In fact, the whole 'Days of Rage & Poison' is enough of a plot-device to make this entry still worthwhile. As much as I despise aberrations in my games, this definately has the feel of a Lovecraftian town to me (Cthulhu meets M.C. Escher). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2009 16:17:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 23:17:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I actually used the idea from the Realms cosmology and just 'broadened' it a little. In there, a mortal (prime-worlder) could not enter one of the planes and then go to another - he (or she) must first go back to Toril and 'move outward' once a again. At first I hated that concept (and the Great Tree itself), but when I thought about it, it helps explain-away why a lot of Primers go to the Wheel in the first place before traveling to other worlds.
You could just use Ed's view on the various interpretations of the FR cosmologies...
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
...
I'll admit, it's worked rather well in my own FR, when I've had to accommodate players who wish to explore elements of the Great Tree. And since all my campaign worlds are heavily invested in the Great Wheel, Ed's advice has helped me along somewhat. |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 03:06:31
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Here's my take on the last two Wooly's posted:
The Lizard Kingdoms: Something about this place grabbed me, too. It does seem more like a Material Plane location, but I could also see it as a region of some plane like the Outlands, even. I was a bit disappointed that they suggested slight modifications of MM monsters (just giving giant bees Int and a few changes to serve as "beefolk" for example). As a self-professed monster junkie, I'd rather think about a specifically designed monster rather than a "re-skinned" one. In that case, abeils from MM2 would work perfectly. I could probably list a number of suggestions for other critters that they could have even pulled from OGC sources, too. Another issue I noticed in this chapter was that some of the monster stats were just incorrect. For example, velociraptors have the feat Spring Attack without meeting the prereqs, and the standard Giant Lizardfolk had Str 21, even though the racial ability modifier is only +2 (and it should have been using the standard ability array). So I'm keeping my eyes open from now on when I look at critter stats.
The Maze: Really not sure what to make of this one. The maze itself wasn't so interesting to me, but the town and its mystery seemed like they could lead to some nice roleplaying opportunities. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 17:01:26
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Yeah - that was my point as well (although you cut to the chase better). The town I can drop-in anywhere for a fun one-shot.
Then again.. there was an entire 'race' (Quevari, RLMM entry) in Ravenloft of a group like this - people who went 'Nutso' every once in awhile.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
You could just use Ed's view on the various interpretations of the FR cosmologies...
I do.
The 'Planer Stuff' I think about a lot is just background - I have never run any sort of off-world adventure. I just like to know how stuff works in my own mind, so I can 'keep score' of how events are shifting things on a more cosmological scale.
Ergo, there is no tree and no great wheel - the Tree is just a metaphor for Torillians on how the universe works, and the Wheel is merely the Outlands, with all it's myriad gates to 'elsewhere'. With my 'free-form' cosmology, any other cosmology works, if you just consider all the inter-connections gates - as Ed hath said - "No-one knows the real truth of things".
Even Eberron's weird Cosmology works with this, and that one is pretty hard to reconcile with 2e lore. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2009 17:02:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 03:50:25
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Mountains of the Five Winds
This one also felt more like a world than a plane... For me, the distinction is all about what's beyond the area described. If there is no way to physically go beyond, and/or if beyond is other planar locales, then it's a plane. If you can physically travel about the areas not described in the the entry, then it's likely a world. It's perhaps an overly simplistic explanation, but that's basically how I make the call of which it feels more like.
That said, this could be modified fairly readily into a plane, and really works better as such. Maybe as a demiplane in Limbo...
Anyway, this world was once a normal place. And then some fool opened a gate into a plane of Chaos, and the entities living in Chaos held the gate open and let Chaos go rolling across the land.
Chaos takes the form of a cloud, appearing to be a golden fog. It extends about 9000 feet up, and it's implied that it's 9000 above sea level, not ground level, since there are mountains poking out. The whole sea level/ground level thing enters into the equation for me because I have a bit of aviation knowledge, and because I've been to places where the ground was at sea level, and I've been places where the ground was 14000 feet above sea level.
Anyway, life in the cloud is what you'd expect: everything is skewy. It's the Time of Troubles times ten thousand (alliteration! ). Trees sing, rocks wander around, the sea changes to other liquids, that whole routine. Time occasionally goes wonky, too, but it always flows forward -- just at different rates. Magic functions pretty normally, but living creatures can go thru all sorts of changes.
There are some changed folks called Tormentors. They become half-fiends; they've basically learned how to control some of the changes and take advantage of them. Tormentors rule a lot of the remaining bits of civilization under the cloud.
Order has become more notably present, too. There are these five sister cities, the Five Winds, conveniently spaced out in an even diamond with one in the center ( ). The Five Winds are above the clouds. And their wizardly rulers realized that Chaos was bad and cut a deal with some entity of Order, opening a gate to its plane and flooding the immediate area with Order -- which basically keeps things stable.
And that's the basics. There's more description, particularly of the Five Winds (each city is devoted to one class type, like warrior, rogue, etc). But none of it grabbed me enough to expound upon.
My opinion? Much potential, and a seriously dropped ball. There is so much more they could have done here...
One idea is to play with the old lore about the Rod of Seven Parts. It's got a Law/Chaos conflict in its background, so tying it to a world like this one could make for an interesting adventure arc, if not an entire campaign.
However... Reading this entry, I was reminded very much of the novel A Hero Born, by Michael Stackpole. It has a similar premise, with Chaos having unexpectedly swept over the world and caused a lot of problems. The Chaos was pushed back from this one human kingdom by its mages, and is held back with a series of magical barriers. For me (admittedly, it is perhaps because I read the novel first), Stackpole's approach is a lot better than the approach the writers used for this plane. If I wanted to play with the Law/Chaos conflict, I'd use his playground first -- or some mixture of the two. I simply liked his backstory better, and I loved his depiction of how things were in Chaos. It's not exactly D&D-ish, but there is so much more potential fun in his Chaos!
One more entry (likely tomorrow) and I'll be caught back up to where I'm actually at in my reading of this book. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 09:15:54
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Beyond Countless Doorways was a great addition to my cosmology, which is the same as of the other poster, Quale, with some disagreements
Mountains of the Five Winds is in northern Anchorome, because there is the planar rift near the north pole, a bit like Chaos in Warhammer
Lizard Kingdoms is in Katashaka, it's isolated almost like the Malatran plateau, overall for the entire continent I used parts of Nyambe, Lustria and X'endrik
The Maze is in the Region of Dreams, Dreamscape, between the Astral and the Ethereal
Faeraenyl is boring, I considered it placing it in the Outlands cause of the symmetry, somewhere close to Oghma's realm and coterminous with Faerie, Faeries of Bastion Press is superior
Kin-Lin, connected it with Khin-Oin, and made Beligos an altraloth
Deluer is in Deep Shadow, where Dust and Vacuum meet
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 18:50:04
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Ouno, the Storm Realm
So this one feels like a plane, because of the way its described. But, also because of the description, it could easily be tweaked into being a Spelljammer locale. The basics are that it's a stormy ball of water with islands floating in the sky, with 2 suns that orbit the world. Granted, that sounds more like a world than a plane, but the overall feel is more of a plane... As I said, though, it could be tweaked for Spelljammer: make Ouno a water world, set it in the center of its sphere (like Oerth is the center of Greyspace), put the suns in orbit around the world, and you're done.
Ouno is a plane of storms, as the heading suggests. There is no land other than the islands floating around in the sky. The water itself is somewhat acidic, though it loses the acidic qualities after 24 hours -- at least, the rain does. The ocean stays like that. There's no references to anything living in the ocean, but I don't see why some acid-resistant versions of regular aquatic critters (including the elemental-based ones) can't be dropped in without a problem. The waters also boost psionic capabilities.
The ocean is also a deity, Mother Ocean. More specifically, it's her mind, as she's transcended past physical form. That idea doesn't work as well for me; I'd change it so that she was a regular deity with her realm at the heart of the plane.
The islands of Ouno are made of a rock called floatstone. Floatstone has neutral bouyancy, so it stays at one altitude without needing to be manipulated in any way. Trees that grow in floatstone gain this property, and their wood becomes floatwood. The floating thing only lasts while in Ouno, though, so if you take floatwood or floatstone to another plane, the floaty ability goes away.
Ouno was first discovered by githzerai, and there's still a good number of them hanging around. The other dominant race is humans. Both races live on the islands, and on ships that sail the skies between the islands. Some of the ships are used for gathering water from the clouds, as this water loses its acidic properties in 6 hours.
In addition to the islands (four of the larger ones are described), there's also a big perpetual hurricane, the Heart of Storms. It's pretty much impossible for anyone to sail into the eye of the Heart of Storms, but cloud and storm giants hang out there.
One thing that readily comes to mind when reading about this plane is Captain Shakespeare and his ship and crew, from the movie version of Stardust. I loved that movie (and the book, too, which I want to read to our kids when we have them), and I think Ouno would benefit very much from some elements of that part (particularly the gathering of lightning, which could have some different properties on a plane of storms than it would have on the Prime).
I quite like this plane as it was written, and think it's ready for us as it is. I also think, though, that a couple of tweaks would make this an awesome place to send your PCs. This is easily one of my favorite planes from this book. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 06:15:55
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Palpatur
This one is definitely a plane... It could be modified into a planet, I suppose, but its history works best as a plane, and its nature is that of a plane.
Palpatur is a sentient plane, now inhabited by tieflings, imps and quasits, and stray fiends.
Once upon a time -- not terribly long ago, since there's at least one tiefling alive who remembers that time -- Palpatur was a much better place. The sentient plane provided everything the tiefling inhabitants needed. It grew cities for them from a material called bioleche, material drawn from the groundflesh of the plane itself. It made bioleche constructs to hunt for food, bioleche tools for work, and bioleche goodies like wings, sticky shoes, and armor for the tieflings to wear. If the inhabitants needed it, it was grown for them out of bioleche.
And then the Blood War spilled onto Palpatur. The nastybads swarmed all over the plane, pretty much destroying anything that got in their way. Palpatur was not amused. The sentient plane was traumatized by the destruction and war, and expressed itself by growing mountainous faces with anguished expressions (oddly, called titanic cromungi). This failed to impress all the nastybads, who happily continued trying to destroy each other. Finally, Palpatur gave up, and ate them all. All most all of the various fiends were swallowed up in sinkholes.
This wasn't the best manuever for Palpatur; it was already weak, and this caused it to fall into a coma.
Now it's a wasteland. Next to nothing grows there, and the physical conditions (gravity, weather, day/night cycles) often change. The bioleche is mostly inert. There aren't nearly as many animals around as there used to be; the tieflings now supplement their diet by eating groundflesh -- but only stuff that's been trimmed away or reclaimed, because scooping it up from the ground to eat it is sacrilege.
The tieflings now live inside of the massive faces, which are big enough to accomodate hundreds of tieflings, each. The tieflings have begun worshipping the plane, and each tribe is working towards the Waking, when the plane will wake back up (and assumably go back to taking care of the tieflings). The tribes have different methods for helping the plane along, and sometimes violently disagree with other tribes. They spend their time praying and doing what they can to help the plane out, which mostly means trimming back unsightly bits of groundflesh (it sometimes erupts into funky growths) and reclaiming fallen bioleche goodies. Some tieflings also like to try to get folks from other planes to come to Palpatur; it's not easy to travel from Palpatur, so any newcomers will have a hard time leaving. The tieflings do this because they believe Palpatur draws sustenance from its inhabitants, and having more regular folks there will help balance out all the evil it ate.
The cromungi are the most notable locations on Palpatur, but they're not the only spots. Bunches of imps and quasits escaped the big Eating, and formed two rival cities. The imps and the quasits continue to war against each other. Another interesting spot is the Reliquary of Simulacra, where tieflings turn bioleche into sculptures of past great warriors and prophets, and even some fiends. Sometimes a sculpture animates for a brief time, which the tieflings see as a sign Palpatur is still alive and kicking.
That's the basics...
I can't stand the name "titanic cromungi". All the cromungi are incredibly big, so it seems redundant to call them all titanic cromungi. And that's actually related to something I would change: the fact that all the faces are small mountains. I see no reason for there to not be all sorts of these faces all over the place, ranging from the mountain-sized ones to ones that are human-sized.
I'm also not keen on a plane full of tieflings. Call me old school, but I like my planetouched races to be relatively uncommon. The descriptions basically make them to be genetic throwbacks to earlier generations, so having a large group of any one type of planetouched seems odd to me. Not only that, but tieflings are to me more like quarter-fiends than a separate and unique race. So while two tieflings might have strictly tiefling babies, it seems logical to me that they'd be just as, if not more, likely to produce regular human babies. At least, that's my understanding of planetouched lore.
Either way, having a whole plane of tieflings just seems pointless. I can dig a lot of exiles wandering over to here, but enough to populate a plane? That's stretching it. And other than the description, there's nothing that distinguishes these guys from any other race. That is for me a huge reason to avoid having a large accumulation of an exotic race.
The bioleche is an interesting angle. The stuff can be constructs, armor, weapons, or tools... It kind of brings to mind the psionic grafts from Dark Sun; I'd certainly modify some of those into bioleche if I was running this plane.
The main things I'd change if I was running this plane are the cromungi, like I discussed above, and all the dang tieflings. I'd make most of them humans, with perhaps a higher prevalence of tieflings, who themselves might form small bands. Other than those things, I think the plane is mostly usable as written.
I might also draw from Narfelli lore for this plane; demoncysts are an obvious idea.
That said, it didn't really grab me. I see potential there, but it doesn't interest me enough to make me really want to explore that potential. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 06:50:49
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Actually, I was thinking a large island, or a small continent.
Then the Tieflings don't seem so bad, and I could limit the number of faces (just one?). Then the 'island' would be a living god ( I can see this somehwhere on Toril - perhaps Malatra). I'd also have the faces come and go from time to time (its more disconcerting that way - you find a face in the middle of your camp the next morning... watching you...). In fact, the whole island could be one of those Elemental Monoliths (I forget what sourcebook they are in, but Bruce Cordell used one in Darkvision).
I think someone loved the giant face on Mars, and just 'ran amok' with the idea. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2009 06:51:55 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 07:00:08
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Sleeping God's Soul
This is definitely a plane. It is an interesting one to me, but I don't know where to go with it...
There are two sections to this plane. There's the Quietude, which is a mostly featureless area. There is literally almost nothing noteworthy about the Quietude, except for its lack of anything interesting. The ground is flat, the air temperature is constantly and uniformly cool but not cold, the sky is white and holds no features other than more white. The ground is a light grey substance that resembles metal -- and that's the only thing notable about this part of the plane, other than the potential for dying of utter boredom. Watching paint dry would an exciting activity, here.
Scattered around the Quietude, however, are hidden doorways to the undersection, the Clockwork Caves. The Clockwork Caves are deep underground, encased in solid rock. Some of that rock is visible, but most of the Clockwork Caves are plated with the same kind of metal as above. And there's gears and pistons and belts and clockwork stuff everywhere. It's not doing anything apparent, and damaging a section of it only seems to shut down that small area.
The plane was once a friendly area, with lovely terrain and normal animals and the whole routine. But then a demigoddess of order showed up in the plane, running from forces of chaos. Since there was no one intelligent there, she reshaped the plane into what it is now. To hide from her enemies, she fled deep underground. She lost a lot of power shaping the plane and making a hiding place, and fell into a deep sleep. The Clockwork Caves were formed by her subconscious.
Most of the inhabitants of the Clockwork Caves are either clockwork constructs or inevitables. There's a bunch of spiders, too, that showed up from some unknown place. There are four non-native intruders described, but little indication that there's more than these four wandering around. One's a half-elf princess and her male elf lover; both are evil and really want to get the hey out of the Caves. There's a mad mage here, too, who thinks he's an avatar of the sleeping goddess. He also has a dumb-as-a-rock warrior for a bodyguard, and a flesh golem built from inevitable body parts.
The wizard, Sighvat, lives near what he calls the Central Gear, which has a nifty ability. Anyone standing on it knows the location of every other living creature in the Clockwork Caves. Unless they're really smart, though, it's too much information (TMI! ), and they are randomly focused on a single one. They know exactly where it is in relation to themselves, and can see thru that critter's (or person's) eyes. Sighvat has fallen in lust with the half-elf princess (she's a babe), and wants to rescue her -- but not her lover. Sighvat thinks of the plane as being his, so he's not going to welcome other folks.
Somewhere deep within the plane, the demigoddess Tevra lies sleeping. She's on an island surrounded by a few miles of water, passing into or over the water makes a person experience some of the goddess's memories, which confuse them. If you get to the goddess's island and touch her, you might get a bonus to an ability score, or you might lose some points from an ability score. Hang out on her island too long, and her memories become corporeal and attack.
I like this plane. It's usable as written, and fairly intriguing. I don't know what I'd do with it, though...
One idea is to modify the Clockwork Caves to more closely resemble the Kicksey-winsey of Arianus, in the Death Gate Cycle of novels. We've already got the massive amounts of machinery doing nothing discernible, so adding dwarves or some other race in to do nothing but maintain the machine and its works isn't much of a stretch. It does add more people to the plane, though, which some DMs might not be as keen on. Of course, that could be avoided by having a special type of clockwork construct that does nothing but maintain the machines...
Taking it a step further... We've got spiders, and we've got a big machine doing nothing apparent. What if this plane and the sleeping goddess were the source of the Spelljammer nastybads, the clockwork horrors? The basic origin story for the horrors could be almost the same, with the first one having been created by the machine, or maybe directly by the goddess... Perhaps the original purpose of the horrors was to spread order. The adamantine horror might have gone rogue while still in the plane and been exiled, or it might have accidently wound up on another plane, where it went mad from losing its connection to Tevra. From there, it became the "destroy everything and make more clockwork horrors" guy we all know and love today. It could be fun to explore this idea...
Lastly, as a plane of order, this plane could have some connection to the Five Winds, and/or to the Rod of Seven Parts.
Oh, and there are a couple of interesting planes mentioned in the sidebar about other planes. One plane, The Twelve Houses of Vacarar, is a hollow world, with 11 smaller world inside it, each one nested inside and just a bit smaller than the next one out. The other intriguing place is Malachost -- a realm where all the natives are incorporeal, and share and trade bodies that are otherwise inert. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 07:00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, I was thinking a large island, or a small continent.
Then the Tieflings don't seem so bad, and I could limit the number of faces (just one?). Then the 'island' would be a living god ( I can see this somehwhere on Toril - perhaps Malatra). I'd also have the faces come and go from time to time (its more disconcerting that way - you find a face in the middle of your camp the next morning... watching you...). In fact, the whole island could be one of those Elemental Monoliths (I forget what sourcebook they are in, but Bruce Cordell used one in Darkvision).
I think someone loved the giant face on Mars, and just 'ran amok' with the idea.
That's a cool idea, too. |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 17:09:25
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Just a few thoughts...
Mountains of the Five Winds: I think there's a lot of room for PC character development here, though this world/region could probably have been executed a little better. One quibble is that I'd probably use something other than half-fiends for Tormentors (I like the half-fiend characteristic table, though, and I'll probably yoink it).
Ouno, the Storm Realm: I'm with Wooly, I like this one. I'd probably stick it in elemental water or air.
Palpatur: Interesting, but probably a little too icky for me. I also don't like the over-population of tieflings, but I'm sure there are other interesting races I could find to use.
Sleeping God's Soul: After Avidarel and Palpatur, I think this is the 3rd plane that needs to be woken up. Anyone remember another? Well, besides evidence of a strange fetish, I quite like this plane. I think there are supposed to be some other visitors besides the 4 listed, so that doesn't bother me much. I like the use of clockworks from ToH, too. |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2009 : 03:48:35
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Seeing as how I've now finished the book and Wooly hasn't been posting any more planes , I'll try a longer review or two.
The Ten Courts of Hell: This is listed as a set of ten (or perhaps eleven) linked planes ruled by fiends. I'm not entirely sure how I'd handle this one, maybe link them into the Nine Hells somehow. The basic idea is that the fiends capture creatures, "convict" them of essentially made-up crimes, and then sentence them to slavery somewhere in the Ten Courts. I'm not sure how helpful this is since capturing the PCs seems like a bit of a railroad, but a couple of the adventure hooks have alternate ideas.
A quick tour:
1st Court: Essentially the sorting center, determines where prisoners will serve their sentences.
2nd Court: Slaves are broken here before being sent to the higher courts.
3rd Court: Slaves are used a farmers in rather disgusting farms.
4th Court: This one is kind of interesting, as there is a school of magic used for training "recruiters" (agents who kidnap slaves from other planes). Even slaves can become courtiers in the Ten Courts if they pass the school entrance exams.
5th Court: Salt mines and smithies and a lot of torture.
6th Court: Not much on this one, except there are a lot of snakes.
7th Court: This is ruled by a fallen celestial obsessed with creating a perfect bell. It's not clear to me why he's still in charge.
8th Court: Basically a frozen waste. Most interesting is that it's king holds the Treasury of Souls, which tracks all the captives of the courts.
9th Court: A completely dark land associated with undead.
10th Court: A mystery, as its its mighty ruler.
11th Court: A legend, this plane is ruled by a Hermit Saint who can rescue the worthy from the Ten Courts.
Supposedly there is quite interesting politics in terms of rulers changing in the courts and the actual courts changing in prominence, but other than a comment about the Treasure of Souls moving around from time to time, there's not much on that, which was a disappointment.
This seems like a very lawful place to me, so I was a bit surprised and disappointed to see demons listed as a number of inhabitants. I'd change those over to devils of one type or another. Similarly, the new monsters, the "ox demons," are also LE and should be called devils.
As I mentioned above, most adventures here are either going to be escapes or involve entering the plane, bribing some devils (there's a nice table on appropriate bribe sizes ), and getting out with what the PCs want. But that seems tricky. In any case, this is not my favorite. |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 18:02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by freyar
Seeing as how I've now finished the book and Wooly hasn't been posting any more planes , I'll try a longer review or two.
I've been quite busy of late; I just got back from a wedding on a cruise ship, which was followed by a cruise (on that same ship) to the Bahamas. Much fun was had, though there were some not-as-fun moments, like sunburn and the groom's brother redefining inappropriateness in his best man speech.
My only souvenir, other than the receipts, is a pretty shell I found near a suspiciously convenient shipwreck.
I'll prolly get back to posting planes in another day or two. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 18:04:03
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quote:
Originally posted by freyar
Anyone still interested in hearing about more of these?
*snickers* I'm covering every plane I've not hit yet, regardless of whether or not anyone is interested. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2009 : 19:25:02
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I thought those would make some decent layers in the Abyss - in a truly infinite universe, there is room for Demons that behave somewhat on the lawful side (I think one of their generals is lawful in canon, IIRC).
And by the same token, this entire thing can be dumped right into 4e's Abyss, since you have Demons and Devils 'getting along' now. Think of it as a small piece of Hell that got so chaotic is slipped into the Abyss - races in the outer Planes aren't so much assigned by their birth, but rather by their attitudes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Much fun was had, though there were some not-as-fun moments, like sunburn and the groom's brother redefining inappropriateness in his best man speech.
Now that is one wall I wouldn't mind being a fly on... sounds like a truly epic faux-pas moment.
"Redefining inappropriateness" 
Edit: I find the Through the Looking Glass chapter reather interesting... especially when applied to Abeir. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Mar 2009 19:27:58 |
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Beyond Countless Doorways
