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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 13:09:57
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Instead of the Spellplague, couldn't the Weave have been destroyed by a war between Mystra and Shar? The Weave and Shadow-Weave could have negated each other. It would have resolved one of the most important plot lines of the past few years, and cleared the deck for new conflicts in a more satisfying way. Just sayin'
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Iliyan
Acolyte
Croatia
42 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 14:59:41
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Why does everyone want to destroy the Weave :_(
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 15:06:46
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| Cause people don't like having a unique reason for magic existing? *shrug* |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 17:12:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Iliyan
Why does everyone want to destroy the Weave :_(
I'm wondering this myself. Why so much hate for an in-setting explanation for why magic works? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 17:30:57
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
Instead of the Spellplague, couldn't the Weave have been destroyed by a war between Mystra and Shar?
It could have. But still, I was more or less fine with things as they were. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 18:58:56
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Personally, I was okay with the idea of the 4E design team destroying Mystra and the Weave... but they ignored the logical (and only possible) result of that: The resulting world is suitable for d20 Modern or Star Wars, but not for any sort of game that involves magic. Magic without the Weave in the Realms does one of two things: goes wild or fizzles out completely (dead magic), and wild magic can only last for so long. The explosion of Halruaa was a plot device used to eliminate a rival to Netheril, and to allow the new setting designers to avoid talking about flying ships when they would rather be talking about floating islands.  I don't get it either, and I have to agree with Rinonalyrna on this.
RodOdom: I actually used the "war between Mystra and Shar" story to explain a toned-down Spellplague that more resembled the ToT except for the lack of gods walking around, and the end result in my Realms is that the Shadow Weave no longer exists and Shar and Azuth are both intermediate deities now (as opposed to Shar = greater and Azuth = lesser). And yes, the Weave and Mystra still exist in my Realms. 
Ardashir: Wizbro doesn't want *anything* to be setting-specific. Settings should be completely generic and interchangeable; in fact, imo, they seem to be of the mind that characters shouldn't even notice when they've crossed from one world to the next. I'd say that they've accomplished that in spades with the Misbegotten Realms and Eberron, without even having to change a thing about Eberron.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 17 Oct 2008 19:03:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 19:15:22
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AS much as I liked Ed's Weave, there were some major continuity problems with it back in 2e.
Why were FR Mages able to cast spells without the Weave when they left Realmspace? Why were non-Torillian Wizards able to use magic just fine without any knowledge of the Weave?
Now, if we simply said that every world has something like the Weave, and Mystra's Weave was just FR's version of the Magic-Field that permeates nearly every world, then that would have been fine.
But tons of lore opposed that idea, by saying the world had too much 'Raw Magic', and Mystra had to constrain it to make it useable by mortals.
Does this mean that Realmspace has more magical power then other spheres? Does it mean that a non-FR Mage was tapping into raw magic (which should make him more powerful, I would imagine)?
The Weave is just fine when in a stand-alone setting, but when the Realms were linked to every other world through Spelljammer, Planesacape, and Ravenloft, things started to fall apart. Especially when you take into consideration a world like Athas, which obviously has NO version of the Weave (it's a non-magic setting, for the most part).
I gave myyself headaches trying to figure out how all that worked; especially when you consider how many retcons the Weave underwent over the years (and no one designer used the same version of it).
When 3e came along, it sort-of solved that problem, by seperating all the worlds once again into their own continuities... and we can probably thank Eberron for that. Even though the worlds were still loosely linked through the Shadow Plane, each could operate under its own rules, because each had its own 'private set' of Outer Planes.
Then 4e comes along, and instead of furthering along this idea of setting-seperation (which solves all the Weave snafus), they obliterate the Weave!
And not only do the obliterate it, they re-align the entire cosmos because of it, which goes against EVERYTHING we ever learned about the Weave. They have now not only given us further continuity problems, but they have done it in such a way that it is impossible to explain alongside previous lore without a ton of retcons.
I just don't get their thinking.
Anyhow, Mystra's death was a must, because they needed to change magic, and I cannot only accept that, but I can even get onboard with it. I wasn't a big fan of the Midnight-version of Mystra anyway.
But we could have gotten a newly re-built Weave in 4e, with a new God of Magic (which almost every other setting has and it causes nary a problem). Its almost as if they just decided a lot of Ed's flavor didn't 'fit' with the core rules, so they just wiped it clean.
Now we have a nice, generic, flavorless setting to drop all our wonderful 4e combat-simulations into... errrr... I mean adventures. 
I think I need to crawl back under my rock for a day or two... sorry... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2008 19:20:24 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 19:53:37
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This isn't a digression...I swear.
SALVATORE'S PATHS OF DARKNESS SPOILER!!!!
Before Salvatore's Legacy came out, I had a conspiracy theory that Lloth (guh...scuse me, Lolth) wasn't real, that she was basically a lie perpetuated by the priestesses to keep their stranglehold on the city. In my defense I wasn't gaming then and didn't know that not only did she exist, but you could damned well find out what her measurements were if you bought the right handbook.
Anyway, my theory was undone Lloth walked into Menzoberranzan and handed Baenre a big yellow brick and that was that.
So...
That said, it occurs to me that another route they could have gone as regards the Spellplague was to alter the theory of the Weave - allow the philosophers of Faerun to discover new evidence that the Weave is just a perception on Faerun...or that the Weave expands outwards beyond the pale of Toril...or anything besides slaughtering the goddess of magic and letting evil purple clouds wander the world and suck countries into the ocean.
In other words, if we're going to have Amauntor come along and call Lathander a heresy, but in the end just basically have Lathander change his name, why not do the same with the Weave? Just give us another perception.
It would have been a better way to go about things than to give us this sort of post-apocalyptic Alice in Wonderland emo-world to play in.....
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 17 Oct 2008 19:58:36 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 22:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
AS much as I liked Ed's Weave, there were some major continuity problems with it back in 2e.
Why were FR Mages able to cast spells without the Weave when they left Realmspace? Why were non-Torillian Wizards able to use magic just fine without any knowledge of the Weave?
Because one casts spells the same within the Weave as one casts beyond the Weave. FR spellcasters don't require a special feat to learn Weave Magic (like Shadow Weave casters do)... so a non-native who comes to Toril ends up casting his spells and tapping the Weave without realizing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, if we simply said that every world has something like the Weave, and Mystra's Weave was just FR's version of the Magic-Field that permeates nearly every world, then that would have been fine.
That explanation could work, but its not necessary and also forces the Realms concept on all other worlds.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But tons of lore opposed that idea, by saying the world had too much 'Raw Magic', and Mystra had to constrain it to make it useable by mortals.
Does this mean that Realmspace has more magical power then other spheres? Does it mean that a non-FR Mage was tapping into raw magic (which should make him more powerful, I would imagine)?
Yes, FR has more magical power than other spheres. No, a non-FR mage isn't more powerful for tapping into raw magic... in his own non-FR world without a Weave, the raw magic isn't as powerful and plentiful. Of course, there are low magic worlds where the raw magic is weak, and those world usually have few mages and weak magical power as a result.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Weave is just fine when in a stand-alone setting, but when the Realms were linked to every other world through Spelljammer, Planesacape, and Ravenloft, things started to fall apart. Especially when you take into consideration a world like Athas, which obviously has NO version of the Weave (it's a non-magic setting, for the most part).
I gave myyself headaches trying to figure out how all that worked; especially when you consider how many retcons the Weave underwent over the years (and no one designer used the same version of it).
You spent too much time then trying to figure how things worked. One should just accept the Weave and take it for granted as a plot device that's doesn't affect the way of things beyond the Realms... whether casters from outside the Weave come into it or casters within go elsewhere.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When 3e came along, it sort-of solved that problem, by seperating all the worlds once again into their own continuities... and we can probably thank Eberron for that. Even though the worlds were still loosely linked through the Shadow Plane, each could operate under its own rules, because each had its own 'private set' of Outer Planes.
Meh. I strongly dislike Eberron and hated the retcon of 3e separating the worlds further... plus, I absolutely can't stand the whole Great Tree cosmology retcon and refuse to use it as anything but the perspective of backwater sages of Toril who are ignorant of the true nature of the planes.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then 4e comes along, and instead of furthering along this idea of setting-seperation (which solves all the Weave snafus), they obliterate the Weave!
<< insert insane ranting and badmouthing directed at everything 4e here >>
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, Mystra's death was a must, because they needed to change magic, and I cannot only accept that, but I can even get onboard with it. I wasn't a big fan of the Midnight-version of Mystra anyway.
Meh. They didn't need to change magic, they wanted to. Still, they could have come up with better ways to explain Mystra's death... much better. Instead, they fed us an ill-conceived, poorly planned explanation that goes against previously established canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But we could have gotten a newly re-built Weave in 4e, with a new God of Magic (which almost every other setting has and it causes nary a problem). Its almost as if they just decided a lot of Ed's flavor didn't 'fit' with the core rules, so they just wiped it clean.
That much is obvious with the poorly detailed 4eFR sourcebooks released. Flavor seems to be a thing of the past.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now we have a nice, generic, flavorless setting to drop all our wonderful 4e combat-simulations into... errrr... I mean adventures.
No, no... you got it right the first time.  |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
Edited by - Nerfed2Hell on 17 Oct 2008 22:14:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 22:27:01
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I can follow all your arguments, and agree with them, except for ONE thing...
Doesn't what you say make the Weave completely MEANINGLESS? 
According to you, the only thing the Weave actually did was give Mystra control over spellcasting, which makes her a bit of a Tyrant. In reality, the Weave was uneccessary, because a mage could simply leave Toril and do just fine EVERYWHERE else.
And BTW... thats EXACTLY how I spin it on my version of FR. 
The Weave was actually something else entirely, designed to keep some things in, and certain things out. Control over magic was just a byproduct, and one Mystra's church exploited very well (they are masters of propaganda on my Toril).
So, I agree with you, because that makes sense, but it also changes what Mystra is about, IMHO.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2008 : 22:55:34
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Never had a problem with the Weave and multispheres. It's no different then say the Dlance deities of magic controling magic within that sphere/planet. This is why they are single sphere deities instead of multispheric. So, I don't understand Mark's problem with the Weave. It always made sense to me that it was Realmspace only.
So what if people left Realmspace? Mystra didn't have any power outside of Realmspace and her planar layer, which isn't any different then any other single sphere deity. Only multispheric deities had power within different prime spheres. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 00:48:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can follow all your arguments, and agree with them, except for ONE thing...
Doesn't what you say make the Weave completely MEANINGLESS?
According to you, the only thing the Weave actually did was give Mystra control over spellcasting, which makes her a bit of a Tyrant. In reality, the Weave was uneccessary, because a mage could simply leave Toril and do just fine EVERYWHERE else.
And BTW... thats EXACTLY how I spin it on my version of FR.
The Weave was actually something else entirely, designed to keep some things in, and certain things out. Control over magic was just a byproduct, and one Mystra's church exploited very well (they are masters of propaganda on my Toril).
So, I agree with you, because that makes sense, but it also changes what Mystra is about, IMHO.
Interesting idea, Markustay, but I don't quite see it that way. I think Kuje has it right, on a basic level... and the details can work any number of ways. As I spin it, the Weave is quite simply *how* magic works at an underlying level in the Realms. Magic operates under different fundamental rules in different crystal spheres, but wizards don't need to know these rules; they're like laws of nature. In the pre-Smellplague Realms, if a wizard casts an arcane spell, she uses the Weave, unless she deliberately uses the Shadow Weave (and has the ability to do so). She can cast the exact same spell using the exact same components on other worlds, and the only thing that changes is completely transparent to the caster. It's like filling your car up at a different gas station chain than usual (if you have any sort of brand loyalty for that kind of thing). Your car will run just as it always did, even if you might notice some small differences in performance; your car still does what it's intended to do: get you from point A to point B.
I find it rather amusing that I used an automotive analogy for this, since I haven't driven in over fifteen years for medical reasons. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 18 Oct 2008 00:57:26 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 01:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now we have a nice, generic, flavorless setting to drop all our wonderful 4e combat-simulations into... errrr... I mean adventures.
No, no... you got it right the first time.
I gotta agree with Nerfed2Hell here. 4e is like most action movies; if there is a story at all, you can take it away completely and not notice anything different. That's not to say that I don't enjoy action movies; I just don't watch action movies when I want something that has discernible sustained movement in a single direction, or something that makes me think. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 18 Oct 2008 01:05:39 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 03:42:56
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the cheesiest way to destroy the weave, would of been the moment Cyric gated into dweomerheart mystra sent her bluefire into the weave in massive bulk that unraveled it and taking the shadow weave with it and forming a new way top use magic.
but no, they had to go and use the cliche of lets kill mystra to get rid of the weave to please a minority of players who are not even fans of the setting, so they will buy it and play too. lets also kill off all the chosen of mystra, advance the time line, say that this deity and that deity are the same and have been since the begining, and advance the timeline 100 years. the existing fans wont even mind...
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 04:56:14
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Yes, Mystra destroying it herself to keep Shar from gaining control of it woiuld have been so much more story-worthy.
Instead, we get the "slimey stalker makes good" scenario. 
Great lesson there to teach the kiddies - No, good doesn't triumph over evil, because evil comes back and stabs you when he gets out on parole. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Oct 2008 04:57:21 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 05:59:34
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and they could of kept mystra around that way too, or banish her from the realms till she was found, along with savras, and kill off the other two..
but the deity thing of sune and hanali and selune being the same as sehanine does not fly. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 06:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
the cheesiest way to destroy the weave, would of been the moment Cyric gated into dweomerheart mystra sent her bluefire into the weave in massive bulk that unraveled it and taking the shadow weave with it and forming a new way top use magic.
This gives me an idea: how cool would it have been to have had Wild Magic just eat at the Weave until IT was the most dominant way to use magic on Faerun, and the more organized Mystarran style was considered a lost art....
.....like monks or bards for example... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 06:26:32
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| I like that Cyric is essentially under house arrest for a thousand years... but can still grant spells to his followers. Can he also send divine manifestations to them? Avatars? If so, what's the point of house arrest except to say that he's not allowed to sneak into other gods' home planes to kill them, too? And if that's all it accomplishes, why 1000 years? Why not forever since... you know... when he gets out, he might decide to kill one or more of those who imprisoned him. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 16:54:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
I'm wondering this myself. Why so much hate for an in-setting explanation for why magic works?
It's not like it's midichlorians or something.
I had no problem with the Weave as being the stuff of magic, permeating the entire world and given focus and order by Mystra. I did not, however, like the Shadow Weave, mainly because I saw it as being the beginning of something annoying, where every greater deity creates a whole new brand of magic. Talos could have the Storm Weave, Sune the Love Weave, Cyric the Crazy Weave, Sylvanus the Nature Weave and so on. Having to create a whole new brand of magic hidden from Mystra cheapened Mystra as goddess of magic (although I'm sure that was Shar's intent), and annoyed me because it's not like Neutral Good Mystra has had any problems with allowing magic to be used for terrible evil anyways.
You know, it's interesting how the main Avatar changes resolved in the long term. The new, good-aligned Mystra still has to act in a Lawful Neutral manner. Cyric the Super God of Evil got cut back down to size, losing most of what he had taken from Bane and Myrkul. Bane came back. Myrkul isn't a god, but is still a mighty force for undeath. In the long term, the changes to the main pantheon weren't really that big (although it was certainly a big deal in Unther). |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 17:17:57
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I just didn't get the Cyric killing Mystra...
That is like saying Manshoon hired Artemis to sneak into Elminster's tower and kill him...isn't going to happen.
I mean, they DID have some folks NEARLY kill ol' El...but he still got away!
So if a mortal (although long-lived) can survive an attack by way of Shadow Weave magic users...why can't the God of Magic survive an attack by an assassin being helped by Shadow Weave?
It just didn't fit for me...it sucked...
I can accept that Mystra is dead and gone...but not for this reason.
The one fight scene I remember between Midnight/Mystra and Cyric showed me that he couldn't kill her...so for them to go against prior experience (and Mystra being in her HOME where her magical warding and guardians were...) is pure BS.
Personally I think this has been the greatest slap in the face to Ed Greenwood since he agreed to terms with TSR long ago.
If Shar and Cyric had INVADED Mystra's home plane with armies and fought some sort of God-War and been aided in such a surprise assault by even MORE evil gods...then I could have seen Mystra being defeated...perhaps. But they chose the cheese... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 18:09:25
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| I don't know if any authors have been tapped to flesh the story out...that's another issue with the way they released the Shattered Realms. When 3rd ed came along, there was a HUGE number of novels that had premepted the new changes in the game setting, so we were prepared (the invasion of the Mithril Hall, etc). This time we had nothing going - no novels, no new characters to fall in love with. Salvatore's still writing pre-Spellplague (albeit via flashback) and the Shadow War Trilogy isn't done yet...and now we already know what's going to happen to Sembia, Shade, the Kingdom of Many Arrows, etc because of the source books! |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Could-have would-have idea
