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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 19:09:25
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Forgotten realms wiki states that Asmododeus was able to devour a weakened Azuth in Hell , thus ascending back to true goodhhod. This has me wondering if he's just taken his power or has he also taken over that portfolio? Is he in affect now the god of all mages?
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 19:26:03
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| No, there is no god of magic in 4e, and there never will be one. It is one of the most important design principles of 4e. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
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Varl
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 19:32:46
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It makes sense, too... with how nerfed-out wizards are in the new edition, (a) there can't possibly be a god of magic, and (b) wizards have never needed a god as badly as they do now.
Edit: This is not a criticism of the 4E Realms. This is a criticism of (if anything) the 4E core rules. I personally think that they should have done away with arcane spellcasting altogether rather than turn it into the shallow mockery of itself that it has become. I honestly didn't think that anything further needed to be done to "balance" the classes; I haven't played a wizard (or sorcerer) since Second Edition because fighters and rogues (and 3.5 barbarians and rangers) were so much cooler in 3E. Just my thoughts. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 10 Oct 2008 19:38:17 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 19:56:20
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To get this scroll back on topic: it would be interesting if Asmodeus had absorbed Azuth's portfolio... and actually might make the 4E Realms make a lot more sense, if the only god of magic is evil.
On a related note: I was looking through the gods listed in the 4E PH, and it would have made sense that something similar happened in the Oerth crystal sphere as well: Azuth and Boccob were both LN in alignment, and it's fitting that both deities were consumed by Asmodeus. That would explain how consuming the essence of a lesser deity (Azuth) allowed Asmodeus to gain the status of a greater deity, which I thought was rather suspect... but we know that Greyhawk is just being completely reset, so there goes all logic out the window once again.
"No, we have not deified logic. We have defied logic. There is a very important distinction, because with the word 'deified' it is necessary to poke one of our i's out."
Okay, that's good. I'm adding it to my sig.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 10 Oct 2008 19:57:13 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 21:09:10
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| -When a deity absorbs a pre-existing portfolio, he/she/it does not need to take that portfolio as is. Finder Wyvernspur, upon absorbing Moander's 'Rot' portfolio, altered it slightly, to the portfolio we are more familiar with him having. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 21:33:47
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Forgotten realms wiki states that Asmododeus was able to devour a weakened Azuth in Hell , thus ascending back to true goodhhod. This has me wondering if he's just taken his power or has he also taken over that portfolio? Is he in affect now the god of all mages?
the FRCG only indicates that he consumed Azuth's divine essence, which allowed him to regain his godhood, but nothing indicates gaining Azuth's portfolio. |
Edited by - scererar on 10 Oct 2008 21:48:22 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 23:30:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Azuth and Boccob were both LN in alignment, and it's fitting that both deities were consumed by Asmodeus.
This is a nitpick, but Boccob is actually Neutral. Boccob is also a Greater Power (unlike Azuth). I have to admit, I don't see how Boccob being "done in" by Asmodeus makes much sense.
Like your new sig btw. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 10 Oct 2008 23:33:18 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 00:15:45
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The way I see it, the portfolio of magic is up for grabs in the Realms. Of course, without the Weave, I don't think whoever takes it up would have the same authority over magic that Mystra once did (being able to deny magic to anyone) because its just a portfolio now, there is no Weave to maintain and control the flow of magic in the Realms.
Now, an exceptionally powerful entity could devote a significant amount of power to recreating the Weave... no? Or maybe it would take a combined effort from several gods cooperating to do that. Speaking of Asmodeus, what's going on with Gargauth in 4e? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 01:12:36
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And honestly, considering how divine deaths have been in the past, it doesn't make sense for Asmodeus to have not grabbed Azuth's portfolios. Deities that slew others have always grabbed the portfolios of their victims, even if they tweaked them or did nothing but hold them.
Without divine help, Asmodeus shouldn't have been able to slay Azuth. Having done so anyway, he should have assumed Azuth's portfolios (why wouldn't he? The Realms still has mages, after all.). Once more, we have established canon being ignored.  |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 01:15:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Without divine help, Asmodeus shouldn't have been able to slay Azuth. Having done so anyway, he should have assumed Azuth's portfolios (why wouldn't he? The Realms still has mages, after all.). Once more, we have established canon being ignored.
Established canon ignored in the 4th Edition 'Realms'? Whatever next!
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 02:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And honestly, considering how divine deaths have been in the past, it doesn't make sense for Asmodeus to have not grabbed Azuth's portfolios. Deities that slew others have always grabbed the portfolios of their victims, even if they tweaked them or did nothing but hold them.
Without divine help, Asmodeus shouldn't have been able to slay Azuth. Having done so anyway, he should have assumed Azuth's portfolios (why wouldn't he? The Realms still has mages, after all.). Once more, we have established canon being ignored.
Well, to play devil's advocate on this issue, maybe Asmodeus didn't actually slay Azuth but --as the Prince of Lies and all that somehow managed to perpetrate the lie that he did. Maybe another god has snatched up Azuth's portfolio, but Asmodeus was there to sneak a piece of his divine essence. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 03:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And honestly, considering how divine deaths have been in the past, it doesn't make sense for Asmodeus to have not grabbed Azuth's portfolios. Deities that slew others have always grabbed the portfolios of their victims, even if they tweaked them or did nothing but hold them.
Without divine help, Asmodeus shouldn't have been able to slay Azuth. Having done so anyway, he should have assumed Azuth's portfolios (why wouldn't he? The Realms still has mages, after all.). Once more, we have established canon being ignored.
While I do not agree totally with the FRCG, page 73 states this in part
"The destruction of Dweomerheart sent the dying Azuth (a patron deity of mages) into Asmodeuss fiery domain. The archdevil killed him and consumed his divine essence."
Azuth was already dying and Asmodeus was probably just in the right place at the right time. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 03:30:16
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You know, its not fully formed, but I have this nagging idea at the base of my skull that perhaps Asmodeus wouldn't mind assuming the portfolio of magic, but somehow, were he to try and become A deity of magic, it would "reset" the process that revives THE deity of magic, and perhaps, just perhaps, this would set Shar against Asmodeus.
Of course I also had this weird flash of Shar causing people to "forget" what really happened during the Spellplague, and she really has a near dead Mystra hidden in the Shadowfell, keeping her on "life support" so that she doesn't rebuild the Weave or finally die and allow another to become the God/Goddess of Magic.
In this case, without the Weave, magic slowly starts to fall apart (talking thousands of years, but slowly degrading), and once magic finally fades, Entropy begins to set in even faster, and thus Shar is actually taking the really long view in her plan of destroying reality.
Wait . . . we were talking about Asmodeus and Azuth weren't we? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 04:22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And honestly, considering how divine deaths have been in the past, it doesn't make sense for Asmodeus to have not grabbed Azuth's portfolios. Deities that slew others have always grabbed the portfolios of their victims, even if they tweaked them or did nothing but hold them.
Without divine help, Asmodeus shouldn't have been able to slay Azuth. Having done so anyway, he should have assumed Azuth's portfolios (why wouldn't he? The Realms still has mages, after all.). Once more, we have established canon being ignored.
While I do not agree totally with the FRCG, page 73 states this in part
"The destruction of Dweomerheart sent the dying Azuth (a patron deity of mages) into Asmodeuss fiery domain. The archdevil killed him and consumed his divine essence."
Azuth was already dying and Asmodeus was probably just in the right place at the right time.
It doesn't matter. Deities can not be slain without divine help, and it can't happen off their home plane, either. So either Asmodeus killed Azuth, like it says, which makes the dying bit irrelevant, or Asmodeus didn't kill Azuth. Either they contradict themselves now, or they contradict past canon -- but either way, there is a contradiction there. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 04:28:24
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| The Wiki article stated that Azuth was weakened after his fall from his native realm to the Hells... |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 05:04:25
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I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore? I can truly see from a mechanical sense, it would be very difficult/ impossible without aid to kill a god or even a demi-god. I found in faiths and pantheons that they are immortal from death by natural causes, but can die under special circumstances like magic or physical combat. Additionally, the only thing I found on their realm is that they are most powerful there and depending on rank can manipulate their environment more.
regardless, yes, there are indeed many contradictions in lore between 3E and 4E that we are all trying to figure out and make sense of.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 05:13:24
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The only thing I would add would be that Azuth no longer had a home plane...his "coincidental" fall into Hell aside, since he no longer had a home plane he may have bound to Hell in attempt to keep himself from dying.
The very unique circumstances he found himself in were a result of Cyric and Shar's actions...so Asmodeus had the power of more powerful gods helping him kill Azuth even if it was not their intention to do so.
So, Asmodeus devoured Azuth after Azuth had been dealt a deadly blow by the actions of a Greater God...and Azuth was only a Lesser God; so that would qualify for the "needing the help of a god" in this instance.
I don't like it...but it is there. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 06:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Of course I also had this weird flash of Shar causing people to "forget" what really happened during the Spellplague, and she really has a near dead Mystra hidden in the Shadowfell, keeping her on "life support" so that she doesn't rebuild the Weave or finally die and allow another to become the God/Goddess of Magic.
Won't Jay and Silent Bob help save the day? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 06:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 06:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The very unique circumstances he found himself in were a result of Cyric and Shar's actions...so Asmodeus had the power of more powerful gods helping him kill Azuth even if it was not their intention to do so.
That's too indirect. Another deity has to be involved -- either personally, or by investing their power in an agent. Just setting up the circumstances doesn't count. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 06:43:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Of course I also had this weird flash of Shar causing people to "forget" what really happened during the Spellplague, and she really has a near dead Mystra hidden in the Shadowfell, keeping her on "life support" so that she doesn't rebuild the Weave or finally die and allow another to become the God/Goddess of Magic.
Won't Jay and Silent Bob help save the day?
Jay was too busy trying to pick up a pair of priestesses of Sharess. Silent Bob was too busy trying to keep Jay out of trouble and trying to keep an eye on the monkey.
And the girl who died swimming laps in the pool, she was a follower of Sune. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 07:35:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power.
While god-killing isn't anything I'd ever visit in my FR campaign, I would think that a thorough reading of those sections in Faiths & Avatars should be required when attempting to understand this aspect of the Realms.
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Edited by - The Sage on 11 Oct 2008 07:36:32 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 10:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
No, there is no god of magic in 4e, and there never will be one. It is one of the most important design principles of 4e.
This has to be the biggest design change which I hate. The Weave was a huge part of what the realms were and I think that it should be restored.....I mean this was supposed to be a magic heavy world. Besides, they could have toned down the uber-characters without destroying what the Realms were at a fundamental level. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 12:28:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Of course I also had this weird flash of Shar causing people to "forget" what really happened during the Spellplague, and she really has a near dead Mystra hidden in the Shadowfell, keeping her on "life support" so that she doesn't rebuild the Weave or finally die and allow another to become the God/Goddess of Magic.
Won't Jay and Silent Bob help save the day?
Jay was too busy trying to pick up a pair of priestesses of Sharess. Silent Bob was too busy trying to keep Jay out of trouble and trying to keep an eye on the monkey.
And the girl who died swimming laps in the pool, she was a follower of Sune.
Okay, okay, I'll admit I was thinking of Dogma a little when I posited that . . . |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 16:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power.
excellent Wooley, thanks. I was looking through my 2E sources after I posted, and found I need this one and powers & pantheons.
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Edited by - scererar on 11 Oct 2008 16:08:41 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 16:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power.
While god-killing isn't anything I'd ever visit in my FR campaign, I would think that a thorough reading of those sections in Faiths & Avatars should be required when attempting to understand this aspect of the Realms.
I would not either. I was just trying to make sense of some of the 4E changes, as we all are. Wooley indicated lore to justify his reasonings of the contradictions in Azuth's death and asmodeus moving on up in the world.
I find it interesting how things changed or were not really addressed, even in 2E to 3e lore.
good part of this thread to me is that I identified 2 more 2E source books I need to find |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 16:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Okay, okay, I'll admit I was thinking of Dogma a little when I posited that . . .
I liked it, though. I'm a big fan of those Jersey movies. Although, after Wooly's take on Jay and Bob, I find myself wondering how all those other characters would fit in the Realms... especially Brodie.
Anyhow, I agree with Caolin's take on magic. Removing the Weave from the FR setting is like taking the Force out of Star Wars.
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Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 17:09:42
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I differ to your wisdom and knowledge base here wooley, but for my own knowledge where does it indicate that in the rules or lore?
It's established in Faiths & Avatars. With the exception of demigods, it takes a power to kill a power.
excellent Wooley, thanks. I was looking through my 2E sources after I posted, and found I need this one and powers & pantheons.
Don't forget Demihuman Deities, if you don't have that one. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 18:26:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The very unique circumstances he found himself in were a result of Cyric and Shar's actions...so Asmodeus had the power of more powerful gods helping him kill Azuth even if it was not their intention to do so.
That's too indirect. Another deity has to be involved -- either personally, or by investing their power in an agent. Just setting up the circumstances doesn't count.
Perhaps Mystra was not the only god Cyric attacked? There could have been any number of reasons Azuth was dying...I was only trying to fill in a blank because there just isn't enough information to go on. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 18:32:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The very unique circumstances he found himself in were a result of Cyric and Shar's actions...so Asmodeus had the power of more powerful gods helping him kill Azuth even if it was not their intention to do so.
That's too indirect. Another deity has to be involved -- either personally, or by investing their power in an agent. Just setting up the circumstances doesn't count.
Perhaps Mystra was not the only god Cyric attacked? There could have been any number of reasons Azuth was dying...I was only trying to fill in a blank because there just isn't enough information to go on.
My point is, a divine power has to be involved in the actual strike that kills the deity. |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 18:59:30
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| Maybe Shar secretly helped Asmodeus. She is the mastermind behind Mystra's death, so she could have used Asmodeus as a tool to kill Azuth. Maybe she saw Azuth as a potential threat if he was to take over Mystra's job. |
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So has Asmodeus absorbed Azuth's portfolio?
