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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 06:44:24
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Okay, here's something I thought might be interesting to discuss. If there's already a thread about this, I apologize by the way. Anyway, what do you all think? Could some enterprising, or perhaps unwitting young (or old) lady mage end up becoming a new Mystra, and begin forming a new weave, and stabilizing the mess it's currently in now? Maybe another goddess could absorb the aspect of magic into her own? Maybe Mystra's not really dead?
Sidenote:
Michael Palin: She's not dead, she's restin'!
John Cleese: Look mate, I know a dead goddess when I see one... and I'm lookin' at one right now. This goddess is no more! She has ceased to be! She's expired and gone to meet her maker! Bereft of life, she rests in peace! If she hadn't exploded all over the planes, she'd be pushin' up the daisies! She's curled up her tootsies! She's shuffled off this mortal coil! She's run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible! She bloody snuffed it! All statements to the effect of a growing concern of this goddess are from now on, inoperative! THIS IS AN EX-GODDESS!
Ahem, anyways... Thoughts? Theories? Ideas? Go nuts!
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"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 08:03:39
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| From an in-game-perspective, there should be nothing preventing a mortal from ascending to divinity and taking the mantle of the deity of magic. But I fear the almighty designers will prevent that and slay anyone who dares to undertake such a bold quest ... |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 09:22:39
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| I believe Elminster will, in time, apotheosize as the next Mystra... Elmystra? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:03:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
From an in-game-perspective, there should be nothing preventing a mortal from ascending to divinity and taking the mantle of the deity of magic.
Agreed. I don't expect Mystra or someone similar to come back in the official Realms because the removal of Mystra was done for explicitly stated game design reasons rather than simply story reasons. WotC might have a "change of heart" about Mystra, but I'm not holding my breath for it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skelessdelradris
Acolyte
Canada
13 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:34:39
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I would have to agree... Though the realms are suffering without a God or Goddess to keep magic stablized I dont think WotC is going to rush ahead and create a new one anytime soon... and truth be told, Its rather exciting to see whats going to happen with magic being as it is right now...
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Skelessdelradris
Sage and scholar
of ancient Netheril
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:38:46
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I have to think that one day in the future Ao will wake up, realize he fell asleep at the wheel and crashed his car and realize he needs fix most of the collateral damage his "nap" caused.
Just my hope that he can't be cool with pockets of Spellplague poping up and scaring , killing and ruining the lives of innocents. Seems to me that proof someone needs to administer magic. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 02 Oct 2008 14:40:33 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:43:13
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I wouldn't be surprised to see the elevation of a new greater deity of magic, but I would be surprised if the Weave was reinstated (that's the game design aspect Rinonalyrna mentions).
As some have suggested, the most obvious thing would be to move Selūne into that position. If it were me, I'd first reintroduce Sehanine Moonbow as an exarch, then elevate her to "God" level, assuming the moon aspects of Selūne's portfolio when the greater goddess embraces magic.
I don't like the idea of Elminster ascending. Leaving aside the loose Fizban parallel it would introduce, it seems to me, that for all his age and power and wisdom and experience, Elminster is the most fundamentally human of the many powerful people that have walked the Realms. Sure, he's escaped hell, lived for millennia, and has a depth of knowledge that borders on omniscience, but... But I dunno, he just seems to be so much of a place as he is, that he must be a man. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 02 Oct 2008 14:43:58 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:56:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I don't like the idea of Elminster ascending. Leaving aside the loose Fizban parallel it would introduce, it seems to me, that for all his age and power and wisdom and experience, Elminster is the most fundamentally human of the many powerful people that have walked the Realms. Sure, he's escaped hell, lived for millennia, and has a depth of knowledge that borders on omniscience, but... But I dunno, he just seems to be so much of a place as he is, that he must be a man.
I totally agree with you about this. I prefer Elminster as a mortal man. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 15:17:38
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| I can see it happening in 5-15 years, but it would likely be an Unaligned or Neutral deity of magic. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 16:22:51
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-As I've said many times, it is not going to happen. Mystra, as a deity of magic in control of magic, was cited as a problem by both Bruce Cordell and Chris Perkins, in two different interviews. She was removed because of the animosity that some fans and many non-fans had towards her, many of these opinions built on incorrect facts (ie, Mystra controlled magic and didn't let people who were evil use magic, and that she had a 'Justice League' that enforced her will...). To reinsert her into the setting, as Mystra, as Midnight, as someone with a new name completely, is going to be, from the design point of view, a step backwards. An effort was made to remove her, as the deity of magic, to attract those fans who avoided the setting because of her, incorrect notions or not. Inserting her back in, as Mystra, as Midnight, as someone with a new name completely, is going to push those fans away.
-Is the premise that Mystra can be brought back going to be flirted with? On this, I have no doubt. What a better way to generate some buzz (and income) than by teasing the return of Mystra in a three-part adventure trilogy? In the end, however, I believe that the official ending will leave Mystra among the dead, for the reasons listed above. But, of course, people would not find out the ultimate ending until they purchase the books. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 16:29:28
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| I agree with the words of Christopher and RF. Elminster if much more interesting as a human, and I prefer to see someone else becoming the god of magic, like Azuth once did, as patron of the wizards. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:17:11
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| mystra version 1 would be nice, but not 2.0. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:18:26
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Don't know. Don't care.
It was a stupid and self-defeating thing which Hasbro did, and I will not buy into Realms.New.Coke. Whatever jibber-jabber Hasbro publishes henceforth will hold ZERO interest for me, and Mongoose and other companies using the d20 system (or something close to it) will get all of my gaming dollars henceforth, even if Mystra steps out out of the shower and Kelemvor tells her that he had a terrible dream that she was dead. Hasbro seems, however, to be going the Chad-Allen-shakes-a-snow-globe-of-Toril-at-Cynosure-General-Hospital route, so I'm not holding my breath for the "I thought you were dead" shtick.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:23:23
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Hmm.
Maybe I should rejigger my schedule and put the planned Gods of Magic piece for Monday Musings ahead of the Orc Pantheon... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:32:25
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Elminster - NO! Keep him as-is; he's pretty much all we have left of the old Realms.
As for Mystra... I've provided an opening (plot-hook) in my Kara-Tur stuff for anyone who wants to go that way, and restore Mystra in their own games.
Non-canon extrapolated from canon material:
Basiacally, quite a few of the deities from around Toril have made their way into the Shou Pantheon (Celestial Bureaucracy) over time. In fact, nearly all of the Faerūnian gods have some sort of position in the East, although often under another name (such as Chauntea being called 'Chantee', or Cyric being called 'Sirhivatizangpo'). In my homebrew material for the East, I have it where the Shou interlopers brought much of their religion with them, but not neccessarily their gods. While some made the journey, others did not, and certain Torillian Gods filled the places of the missing deities.
One such was the Shou Goddess of Magic, who was originally similar to the Greek Hecate, merging aspects of the Moon and night with 'hidden secrets' and 'arcane lore'. Something similar occurred within the Celestial Bureaucracy that happened in the Elven Pantheon with Angharradh - the Kara-Turan goddess known as Tsuki-Soma was an amalgam of Mystra and Selune. In game-terms (crunch), what happened was that Mystra took one of her Avatars and merged it with one Selune's Avatars, forming the duel-goddess Tsuki-Soma, and this aspect of both of them was left merged to handle all things 'moon' and 'magical' in the east.
Fast-forward to the end of 3e and the death of Mystra. At the last possible instant (Savras was finally able to warn her?) Mystra summons all of her avatars back to her for her confrontation with Shar. Of course, while Shar has her attention, Cyric backstabs her (probably with a piece of the Karsestone) and we get the Spellplague and the century of chaos.
However, the avatar that was part of the Eastern Goddess of Magic - because she was 'glued' to the other avatar - did not take part in the battle and was NOT destroyed. Immediately following Mystra's death, Selune reabsorbed all of the arcane energies released from Mystra that were formally hers, just as Shar did with all the negative (Shadow) energy. This new condition caused BOTH of the Tsuki-Soma Avatars to become part of her.
Sensing a copy of the her daughter within the amalgam goddess, she carefully seperated the tiny fragment of the original Midnight's soul that remained. It was not enough to return the poor woman to her former mortal life, but it was enough to place withina yet-unborn child.
So, somewhere in the East, there is a human mage (now of Shou-Lung heritage) that has no knowledge of her previous incarnation, but she has the soul of the mortal Midnight within her, and it it just might be possible to 're-awaken' memories of her past life. Now, weather that would allow her to ascend once again is questionable, but it does leave a nice plothook for some DM to use down the road.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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jibriil
Acolyte
Australia
5 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:39:51
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Mystra should only return as something more, she cannot be aligned in any way. Perhaps risen to a higher level - similar to Ao in concept.
People who worship Mystra should be in effect worshipping Magic itself, worshipping the Weave itself. That said she cannot be as other gods are, and must not communicate with her flock. She should in effect become the Weave.
If anything perhaps another goddess could take her role. Any mage ascending to godhood is simply not enough. It can't be a newbie it has to be a master of the pantheon (I like the idea of Lolth becoming Chaotic Neutral, becoming the weave itself, forgiven her crimes and leaving her flock to fend for itself).
If they have to kill Mystra - fine, but all gods provide some magic to their flock, let Mystra deny those gods at will, let her become chaotic elegance. Let her be the Weave. |
Edited by - jibriil on 02 Oct 2008 18:59:33 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 19:15:52
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My belief? She's not dead, but that Mask and her worked the biggest illusion of all time and the Weave is still in existence. But, that goes against what the 'designers' of the 4th Realms have said is canon.
And keep El just as he is... Wise, insane and the truest devotee of the Realms as a whole. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 19:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by jibriil
- fine, but all gods provide some magic to their flock, let Mystra deny those gods at will, let her become chaotic elegance. Let her be the Weave.
Chaotic Elegance?
Thats quotable!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 20:57:47
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| I knew this would be a good conversation starter! :D Surprised no one mentioned my Monty Python reference though. :( Anyway, I'm honestly more concerned about Dove and Storm and poor ol' El than a return of Mystra. But I think the other gods of order are going to have to step in somehow, at some level to keep the entire planet from decaying into chaos and misery. This isn't Warhammer after all. |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 21:10:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
I knew this would be a good conversation starter! :D Surprised no one mentioned my Monty Python reference though. :( Anyway, I'm honestly more concerned about Dove and Storm and poor ol' El than a return of Mystra. But I think the other gods of order are going to have to step in somehow, at some level to keep the entire planet from decaying into chaos and misery. This isn't Warhammer after all.
An excellent conversation starter!
Y'know, I think "poor ol' El's" probably in better shape than a lot of folks are giving him credit for.
Sometime this weekend I'm gonna comb out all of the Seven Sisters mentions in 4E lore thus far so we can kind of look at everything we know in one place.
And alas, as a "working" DM, I've found that M***y P****n quotes are best ignored unless you need twenty minutes to go over your notes. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 22:56:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So, somewhere in the East, there is a human mage (now of Shou-Lung heritage) that has no knowledge of her previous incarnation, but she has the soul of the mortal Midnight within her, and it it just might be possible to 're-awaken' memories of her past life. Now, weather that would allow her to ascend once again is questionable, but it does leave a nice plothook for some DM to use down the road.
I like that plot hook. Wouldn't use it with regards to Mystra (my Realms still has her, after all), but maybe with some other deity. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 23:02:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
My belief? She's not dead, but that Mask and her worked the biggest illusion of all time and the Weave is still in existence. But, that goes against what the 'designers' of the 4th Realms have said is canon.
And keep El just as he is... Wise, insane and the truest devotee of the Realms as a whole.
Well, Ashe, you've come perilously close to describing my solution for the problem Wizbro created by picking the non-fans over the fans in dealing with magic in the Realms. And that's all I'm saying in this post.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 23:07:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I have to think that one day in the future Ao will wake up, realize he fell asleep at the wheel and crashed his car and realize he needs fix most of the collateral damage his "nap" caused.
Yeah, I explained it as Overgod narcolepsy too... and that may be in one of my earlier posts somewhere.
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Just my hope that he can't be cool with pockets of Spellplague poping up and scaring , killing and ruining the lives of innocents. Seems to me that proof someone needs to administer magic.
I agree. Of course, there's always the possibility that Toril and Eberron switched Overgods in the prelude to the Sellplague, and the Realms aren't dealing with Ao any more... it would make 4E make a lot more sense, for sure... but we won't know that until 4E Eberron comes out. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 23:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
I knew this would be a good conversation starter! :D Surprised no one mentioned my Monty Python reference though. :( Anyway, I'm honestly more concerned about Dove and Storm and poor ol' El than a return of Mystra. But I think the other gods of order are going to have to step in somehow, at some level to keep the entire planet from decaying into chaos and misery. This isn't Warhammer after all.
Ooh! But are you sure about that? Maybe that's the world-swap we've seen happen, and that this mysterious "Abeir" place that has suddenly infused itself into Toril is actually the Warhammer world. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 23:47:05
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| ... This also isn't an M. Night Shamylan (or however it's spelled) movie. |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 05:36:22
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I think it's quite possible a god or even goddess of magic could come back, WotC business concerns notwithstanding.
The openings to bring a god of magic back are there, if the (future) designers should decide to use them.
Crazy idea: Mystra reconstituted herself, but ended up in Abeir, not Toril.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 11:40:26
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| I nominate that the next deity of magic be Ed Greenwood (he can take over Deneir's old portfolio along with it). Elminster can come here and pick him up and bring him back to the realms and talk to Ao and convince him to ascend him to that status and El can be Chosen of Ed. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 20:06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I nominate that the next deity of magic be Ed Greenwood (he can take over Deneir's old portfolio along with it). Elminster can come here and pick him up and bring him back to the realms and talk to Ao and convince him to ascend him to that status and El can be Chosen of Ed.
-The ultimate case of Ed Greenwood worship, Elminster outshining other characters, and every other (mostly) silly trope out there! |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 07 Oct 2008 20:07:08 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 03:48:47
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| By the end of the New Ed GreenWood Trilogy, I predict that Elminster will comeback as the new Azuth and the Simbul will become the new Mystra. |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 05:41:07
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| This is giving me so many ideas... I think I finally know how to end my Symrustar Auglamyr campaign. She'll be on some other plane, a safeguard in case Mystra fails, holding a large part of her power, doing nothing but learning how to control the Weave. If (now when) Mystra falls, she ascends with the help of the other Chosen. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 09:21:42
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I think it's better if NO DEITY is guarding the Weave. With that, people (especially those who have never visited CK) will not have the wrong notion that Mystra is biased in her treatment with magic-users, favoring the good.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Topic |
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Debate: New Mystra at some point in the future?
