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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 00:21:06
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Ya, I guess that's true...
Or maybe Ao did take back the portfolio of magic but just hasn't give it to anyone yet because he hasn't found the right candidate.
I would think beggars can't be choosers when the Spellplague is ravaging the land.
Well, if Ao decides to just give the portfolio to some mortal and say "Here's the power of a deity. Take it and good luck.", Shar's just going to be waiting to kill off this new deity. It's just going to cause another big disaster.
Wooly, I don't think Ao would stop it because Cyric is just acting what is expected of him. I mean, he's the Lord of Murder.
If Ao was going to stop any fighting, it should've been the Tyr and Helm battle, but that's another topic. 
I wasn't referring to the murder itself -- I was referring to the backlash it caused. I mean, if Ao can order around the gods and kick them out of the heavens, then he can surely do something "minor" like hold the Weave intact long enough to put a new deity of magic in place. And he could certainly do whatever he needed to to keep Shar from striking at the new deity of magic. Besides which, Shar couldn't directly attack the new deity, anyway -- it's not her place to do so.
And yeah, I know that Ao has kind of a hands-off approach to the whole thing -- but the mess caused by the Sellplague is something that he would have wanted to prevent, thinks I. Something causing deific deaths, merging worlds, widespread cataclysmic destruction, tossing planes around, and general mayhem is far too big for him to just sit on his hands and watch. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Feb 2008 00:24:53 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 02:26:17
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Wooly, do you remember at the end of the novel Waterdeep, a voice asks, "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" in which Ao replies, "They have restored the balance, Master. The Realms are secure."? Well, that master is WotC. Lol. WotC wants less deities in the Realms so Ao is letting more deities die.
But on a more serious tone, I think the Balance does have something to do with this. Maybe Ao thought that Mystra has become too powerful and that the large numbers of deities were disrupting the balance so he decided to let something like this happen to "thin out the ranks". Right now, just from two passages in GHotR we know that 3 deities are dead: Helm, Mystra and Savras. Imagine how many more will go later on to restore that "Balance". |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 03:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
But on a more serious tone, I think the Balance does have something to do with this. Maybe Ao thought that Mystra has become too powerful and that the large numbers of deities were disrupting the balance so he decided to let something like this happen to "thin out the ranks". Right now, just from two passages in GHotR we know that 3 deities are dead: Helm, Mystra and Savras. Imagine how many more will go later on to restore that "Balance".
I still don't see it. If the ranks need to be thinned out, fine. There are ways to do it that don't involve titanic planar upheavals and merging worlds, both of which happen on an unprecedented scale.
It's like ripping the hood off of your car to change the battery. Sure, you could do it... But there are better ways to do it, so you wouldn't rip the hood off nor allow it to be ripped off. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 10:08:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The entire thing is a load of horse-manure, but I already said that. The new Forgotten Realms, to me at least, have become the Forgettable Realms...
A hit! A very palpable hit!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 10:17:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Or is there something different in this situation? Because usually when a god murders another god, the murderer takes the portfolio of the murdered god, right? However, this time Cyric has been imprisoned by the other Greater Gods so perhaps he never took the powers of Mystra and it's sorta just floating around somewhere...
Hmm, when a deity dies, the killer tries to take the portfolio(s), it does not always work. Portfolios have been shared out with some getting a part of the former deity.
In the case of Mystra, there already is a deity that holds Magic (though was only Elven magic) that had the same rank as she did (or will lose, depending on what year you are in) so could very easily step in and take it, or perhaps just transfer to him.
Of course there is still AO out there that clearly can have a say in what occurs. I will mention that SKR made a comment a few years ago that he believed references to AO (or other super deities would tend to disappear, this was appearently a part of 3.0 design team to start to pare down deities.
Then what was Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms Sparkly Robes doing in the Blecch-spew saga? The figure is apparently a front person (some sort of uber-proxy) for Ao. Why is he/she/it there (in a canonical novel) if Wizards are doing away with Ao? The moreso since about six months ago Ed answered a question of mine regarding who gets the portfolio of Kyuss at the end of the Age of Worms adventure path by saying that Ao decides. Do those people in Renton have any idea what they are doing? Any at all?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 12:24:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Do those people in Renton have any idea what they are doing? Any at all?
Trying to make money for WotC and hoping their gamble doesn't blow up in their faces.  |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 14:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Wooly, do you remember at the end of the novel Waterdeep, a voice asks, "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" in which Ao replies, "They have restored the balance, Master. The Realms are secure."? Well, that master is WotC. Lol. WotC wants less deities in the Realms so Ao is letting more deities die.
Too bad it wasn't Ed Greenwood. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 16:11:20
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My own personal theory on AO's "job" is that AO is only concerned with keeping the Realms the Realms rather than being absorbed by the Hells, the Abyss, the Heavens or whatever. I see him in much the same light as a . . . (sorry, thinking) . . . Symbul (in that the Symbul holds back the might of Thay and doesn't much care how it's done).
So, if a God/Goddess of magic isn't a requirement for FR to stay FR then AO doesn't give a hoot.
To put it in terms of Wooly's analogy, my AO doesn't give a hoot about the state of the car's body so long as the engine runs. So if the hood gets ripped off in order to charge the battery, well, that's fine so long as the car keeps going. Though the car analogy falls a bit sort in my vision, as in my vision the barriers that keep FR in the material wax and wane in power, rather than stay static. :)
I don't really think that my vision matches the "canon vision" but I really like it. I've used it to help explain the Great Wheel to Great Tree jam, the ToT (because the whole Tablets of Fate thing seemed a red herring to me, sort of like an apple in a garden in some story I heard about sometime *g*)
And, with a bunch of justification I think I could probably fit the Spellplague in, but I don't know enough (and may not learn enough) to fit it yet. (though I have some thoughts about powers from the Far Realm, or some other likely candidate, infecting the Weave forcing AO to set up events so that the Weave is destroyed because the infection is weakening the planar barriers that keep FR in the prime) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 16:37:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Logic has nothing to do with it, and I'm sure that it will all be explained with "you cannot understand the ways of the gods" although in this case it should be noted that Mystra's death had a far bigger impact on everything whereas Leira's death was just something like a footnote and didn't really matter
Screw that. Leira was great. They just didn't portray her right initially. Her followers make the perfect tricksters. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:06:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Logic has nothing to do with it, and I'm sure that it will all be explained with "you cannot understand the ways of the gods" although in this case it should be noted that Mystra's death had a far bigger impact on everything whereas Leira's death was just something like a footnote and didn't really matter
Screw that. Leira was great. They just didn't portray her right initially. Her followers make the perfect tricksters.
But Leira's death didn't turn the world inside out...or upside down... or something... hence the 'footnote'
I agree that they make the perfect tricksters |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
But on a more serious tone, I think the Balance does have something to do with this. Maybe Ao thought that Mystra has become too powerful and that the large numbers of deities were disrupting the balance so he decided to let something like this happen to "thin out the ranks". Right now, just from two passages in GHotR we know that 3 deities are dead: Helm, Mystra and Savras. Imagine how many more will go later on to restore that "Balance".
I still don't see it. If the ranks need to be thinned out, fine. There are ways to do it that don't involve titanic planar upheavals and merging worlds, both of which happen on an unprecedented scale.
It's like ripping the hood off of your car to change the battery. Sure, you could do it... But there are better ways to do it, so you wouldn't rip the hood off nor allow it to be ripped off.
Well, in the case of ToT, Ao banished all the gods and caused the deaths of several of them and thousands of people just to teach the deities a lesson on humility...
Overdeities think in a strange way. They like to take drastic measures to handle simple problems. Lol.
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"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
But on a more serious tone, I think the Balance does have something to do with this. Maybe Ao thought that Mystra has become too powerful and that the large numbers of deities were disrupting the balance so he decided to let something like this happen to "thin out the ranks". Right now, just from two passages in GHotR we know that 3 deities are dead: Helm, Mystra and Savras. Imagine how many more will go later on to restore that "Balance".
I still don't see it. If the ranks need to be thinned out, fine. There are ways to do it that don't involve titanic planar upheavals and merging worlds, both of which happen on an unprecedented scale.
It's like ripping the hood off of your car to change the battery. Sure, you could do it... But there are better ways to do it, so you wouldn't rip the hood off nor allow it to be ripped off.
Well, in the case of ToT, Ao banished all the gods and caused the deaths of several of them and thousands of people just to teach the deities a lesson on humility...
Overdeities think in a strange way. They like to take drastic measures to handle simple problems. Lol.
Ao probably thought: "How much beating can Toril take before it brakes apart? Let's see ...." |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Do those people in Renton have any idea what they are doing? Any at all?
In a single word: I-don't-bloody-hell-think-so! 
To wax biblical (I just finished reading Proverbs today):
Proverbs 10:14
Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin.
-and-
Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 17:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Well, in the case of ToT, Ao banished all the gods and caused the deaths of several of them and thousands of people just to teach the deities a lesson on humility...
I think that was just PR. A nice smoke screen to hide true intentions. With the Gods/Goddesses on Toril they don't have aren't able to perceive what's going on in the cosmos. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 21:40:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ao is apparently on vacation, then, since he prolly could have stopped that, too.
A good point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 21:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides which, Shar couldn't directly attack the new deity, anyway -- it's not her place to do so.
Indeed, and if it's become so easy for one god to directly kill another, it begs the question of why it rarely ever seemed to happen before ("How come gods weren't being killed off and replaced every year?"). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 00:54:57
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Think I saw on Ao's blog that he transferred out of RPG over to Pokemon CCG development.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ao is apparently on vacation, then, since he prolly could have stopped that, too.
I expect that when we finally get a Sellplague novel, each deity death scene will end with the victor yelling "There can be only one!" |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2008 : 11:23:23
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Here we are, born to be kings
We're the princes of the universe
Here we belong, fighting to survive
In a world with the darkest powers, heh
And here we are, we're the princes of the universe
Here we belong, fighting for survival
We've come to be the rulers of you all.
-- Freddie Mercury, "Princes of the Universe"
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2008 : 18:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Here we are, born to be kings
We're the princes of the universe
Here we belong, fighting to survive
In a world with the darkest powers, heh
And here we are, we're the princes of the universe
Here we belong, fighting for survival
We've come to be the rulers of you all.
-- Freddie Mercury, "Princes of the Universe"
Aye, Mystra as MacLeod, Cyric as the Kurgan, and Savras as Ramirez...oh, wait...MacLeod took Kurgan's head at the end of the movie  |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2008 : 09:22:51
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| first time posting so figure i would put in my two bit cents, so here i go. I would have to agree with mace on this subject its hard to believe that another god would be able to take out another on their home turf where they are at there strongest not to mention she would have seen it coming which from what i understand she is the unofficial holder of the portfolio of time which she got from amuantar and would have still had it when she got all the powers from mystra #2. also as for as having a successor as god of magic i remember reading some where that mystra# 2 farsaw her own death in the time of troubles and thats why she created the choosen in the first place, to have one of them succeed her as the new god/godess of magic. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2008 : 11:15:41
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| Decisions on FR are now made on the basis of the bottom line and nothing else. |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 09:32:11
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I understand WotC made its decisions on the basis of helping out the bottom line, but they could have at least come up with a more plausible transition between 3.5 and 4e.
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 15:41:04
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| Why? That would take time and effort, which translates into money. Doing a rushed hatchet job is cheap. |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 23:06:53
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| Agreed... Unfortunately. Love your rants, by the way, Mace. So. When comes the next one? |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 08:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
Why? That would take time and effort, which translates into money. Doing a rushed hatchet job is cheap.
... as Microsoft has brilliantly shown over many years, but that is a totally different topic for rants.
The only answer I can come up with is that Cyric used the Shadow Weave and that exposure to larger amounts of that kind of energy is somehow poisonous to Mystra. Since Mystra split her power among the chosen also as a "backup" I would say its not at all likely she would have died without a replacement though. Having the chosen was a requirement to make handling the power easier for the goddess. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 31 Jul 2008 08:42:16 |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 05:04:54
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Wooly, do you remember at the end of the novel Waterdeep, a voice asks, "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" in which Ao replies, "They have restored the balance, Master. The Realms are secure."? Well, that master is WotC. Lol. WotC wants less deities in the Realms so Ao is letting more deities die.
Hmm... maybe Ao is just some "lesser" entity who answers to some über lord of the multiverse?
And another thing, yesterday I read something about Tyr being tricked into killing Helm over Tymora. I thought it was this topic but I couldn't find the reply about someone saying it was against the nature of the gods. True, the events in crusable shows the Realms deities are kinda static and boring. But I kinda like the new direction they're going with the gods. They become a bit more "human", kinda like the greek panteon. And Tyr falling in love with Tymora? Why not. We mortals couldn't comprehend what's going on in a mind of an entity that's almost as old as the world. But lets face it, the chances of Cyric pulling of this deception of the All Seeing god Tyr is small, very small.
Anyway, back to the topic. It's a shame Mystra gets killed all of a sudden, and I've grown to like her after I read the avatar trilogy. But I can't deny I like how it's been done. I like Shar as the main villain instead of Bane, who's always straight forward (tyranny and world domination ect).
With the death of Mystra (and with her the Weave), it could have been a plan of Shar to claim her portfolio of magic and thus having control of the Weave AND Shadow Weave and thus being one of the most powerful deities of the Realms.
All in all I don't really know what to make of it. One part of me is disgusted by all these major events and the other side likes the change. At the moment, this is just another ToT with the coming of AD&D 2nd edtion en the rebirth of Bane and the return of the City of Shade announced the 3rd edition. I can't say anymore untill I've seen the new Realms campaign guide. |
Edited by - Tyranthraxus on 13 Aug 2008 07:23:06 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 05:50:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Hmm... maybe Ao is just some "lesser" entity who answers to some über lord of the multiverse?
Does that matter really? IMO it doesnt and its kinda esoteric speculation because the characters in a world wont know that. Even the existence of Ao isnt really known by many of the "normal population", so someone more powerful than Ao would probably be known to no one. So Ao and his superiors have zero influence on the events of the world IMO.
There is absolutely no need for a "higher being" because WotC can do what it wants with the campaign. They can paint everything purple and tell us its ok. A higher being does not make the changes in the campaign any more reasonable than they are now. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 07:08:23
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| No. It doesn't matter. As someone else already posted WotC is the master of the multiverse. But I like the mysteries that surround Ao, and the thought that even the lord of the gods has a superior. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 11:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Hmm... maybe Ao is just some "lesser" entity who answers to some über lord of the multiverse?
Yes, that "uber" lord of the multiverse is... the DM. This was apparently meant to imply that no matter what events take place in the Realms, it's *you*, the DM, who is the true master with complete control over *your* campaigns.  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 19:34:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
And Tyr falling in love with Tymora? Why not.
Note that the relevant text in GHotR never even mentions the word "love", or states that any one god in the scenerio actually loved another.
quote:
I like Shar as the main villain instead of Bane, who's always straight forward (tyranny and world domination ect).
I don't think there should be any "main villain" in the Realms.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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How bloody stupid do they think Mystra is? A RANT
