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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 16:41:33
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| Ah. Thanks! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 17:51:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
The only thing that makes sense to me is that Bhaal was attempting what Bane actually achieved. Bane used his semi-divine son Iyachtu Xvim as a kind of cocoon to regenerate himself and be reborn through.
Actually, we don't have enough info to know if this is true or not. We've discussed it elsewhere, but other theories are that Bane was as surprised by his rebirth as anyone else, or that -- and this is my fave theory -- Xvim is pretending to be a reborn Bane. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 19:08:06
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| Faiths and Pantheons does say that Bane is back, but I get what you mean. That's an approach I often like to take myself. That is, I enjoy thinking up reasonable alternative explanations based on what's known. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 23:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Abdel gives up every part of Bhaal's power at the end of the novels, effectively making him just a normal mortal while a upper planar takes Bhaal's essence and scatters it across the multiverse.
Yup (I read the BG novels, myself), and just as a note that's also one of the endings for the Throne of Bhaal game, as well. In the game, the PC's other option is to accept Bhaal's essence and become immortal (either good or evil), and Bhaal never gets a chance to come back. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Feb 2007 23:29:11 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 09:25:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Faiths and Pantheons does say that Bane is back, but I get what you mean. That's an approach I often like to take myself. That is, I enjoy thinking up reasonable alternative explanations based on what's known.
My current theory about Bane's return...
quote:
Originally posted in the Candlekeep's Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ
Let's assume that Bane'e Return wasn't planned, and when Xvim had gathered enough of Bane's power and essence, it reached a critical mass and overwhelmed him. I can see Bane, after such an event, being a little different from what he was previously -- perhaps even existing as a merged being between both himself and what was left of Xvim.
His symbols and colour change to more closely match Xvim. That would also indicate more of a merge -- which, in my opinion, points to the theory I listed. Xvim's (ascended) symbol looked more like his dad's -- only with the hand sitting with the thumb facing the left, rather than the right like Bane's. And Xvim's symbols have always had eyes -- old and ascended.
Bane's new symbol has still got the black fist (facing the same way as his old symbol) and squeezing green rays. Xvim's symbols always had a green component to them -- in the form of those eyes on his symbols. Perhaps the green rays in the new Bane symbol could reflect Xvim's past existence with Bane -- maybe illustrating how Xvim was later replaced (or rather subsumed) by a resurrected Bane by the fact that his black fist is closing in on the green rays (that represent Xvim).
And we must not forget that Bane's old symbol had the black hand on a red field -- so Bane 2.0 is using Xvim's colors. The green mainly... though, as I said above, Bane's Hand is still the same in the new symbol as it was in the old -- just clutching rather than flat. Bane 2.0 is utilising Xvim's green.
If the "planned" explanation is used, then Bane should have kept his old colours of red and black. The fact that he's using black and green suggests that some of Xvim remains... And that's another interesting thing: how much of a tyrant could Bane be if he couldn't even totally subsume his own son?
The more I think about this and the lore we do have, the more I tend to think that Bane's return was as much a surprise to him as it was to anyone else.
Though... Bane's Hand is squeezing the green rays -- and if we look at that from the "Bane-eventually-subsumes-Xvim" stand point, that image itself could suggest Bane is perhaps closing in around Xvim's remnants, or rather, slowly squeezing it out of existence (or rather again, completely consuming it).
It could be, if we assume Bane's Return was in fact an opportunity rather than something properly planned on Bane's behalf, that Bane's current image is transitory. Once Bane's completely consumes what remains of Xvim into his being... Bane's older symbol (or a new and reinvigorated symbol) may become apparent. Bane's resurrection then, will be properly complete.
It could also be that Bane's hand is clutching an object that is shining forth, despite his desire to contain it... Xvim perhaps. Sure, it's not appropriate for a god of tyranny, but it is an alternate interpretation. The aspect shining forth could represent also Freedom. Bane's squeezing or crushing it could suggest how tyranny is usually equated with the end of freedom.
If that's the case... then it's highly appropriate.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 16:39:51
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I'm with Wooly Rupert. Xvim has fooled everyone.  |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 19:40:51
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Yeah, I heartily agree that a DM could definitely run with that. That's great. :D
I look at ambiguities or blanks in the setting as material for DMs to excercise their creativity with. If down the road some new canon comes out the contradicts it, no biggie. As Bob Ross said, "it's your world." |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 01:32:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
its "canon" just not CANON. the story had too many errors to be really CANON. but it doesn't matter
i dont remember talking about suldenessellar before but w/e
The Bhaalspawn saga is canon regardless of what knife you use to cut it... If it's referenced in the Realmslore and has been discussed, as canon, by game designers... then it has had just as much support as any other piece of officially recognised canon Realmslore.
Thus, it is canon -- pure and simple -- not "canon-lite" or "canon-zero"... just canon.
Is it okay to call it "canon-in-need-of-a-rewrite"?
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 08:18:30
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Me, I like the idea that the new Bane himself isn't really sure if he's Bane, Xvim, or something else.
That is, he thinks of himself as Bane, but at the same time he knows he isn't exactly the same being that died in the Time of Troubles. Is it just that he's been reborn and his portfolio has changed? Or is it that he's "really" a powered-up Xvim, and the influence of those dozens of Baneliches who thought they were Bane, and the worship of Banite clerics that treated Xvim as Bane reborn or Bane's heir, managed to transform his self-identity? He's got Xvim's memories still, and he's got what he thinks are Bane's memories, and he's got memories of all those Baneliches, and . . . bah! Who cares!
He thinks he's Bane, right? He's a greater god, right? Who's going to tell him he's not Bane, eh? He's not some pansy like Oghma to meditate on worthless philosophy like the nature of truth or identity. Whether the old Bane reborn, or a new Bane replacing the old, he's Bane now, and nobody's going to get in his way. |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 12:22:22
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Atleast Ao would know for sure, it kinda comes with the territory.
The problem with the ToB ending and having all his essence scattered is probably just gonna cause the same thing all over again. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 21:10:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
Atleast Ao would know for sure, it kinda comes with the territory.
The problem with the ToB ending and having all his essence scattered is probably just gonna cause the same thing all over again.
Don't remember exactly what happened in the novel (been a long time since I read it), but in the game if the PC gives up the essence it is locked away in the upper planes for safekeeping. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 22:40:39
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It occurs to me that there have been some interesting ideas in this thread that start to congeal into something that might be kind of fun to think about.
First off, because Bhaal had his "mortal progeny," its assumed that he had some kind of specific plan in mind. That plan was stated as his children ressurecting him, or one of his children regaining his power and position as the Lord of Murder, depending on who you ask.
Lets assume a few things that have never been stated. Lets assume first, that at the end of the Time of Troubles that Mystra, Cyric AND Kelemvor were suppose to assume godhood, and as such, Cyric caused some problems with his betrayal of Kelemvor.
Now, lets assume that Ao didn't want Cyric to gain too much power too fast, and so even while Cyric "effectively" had Bhaal's portfolio, some of Bhaal's power was kept in "reserve" to keep Cyric from supercharging (not entirely unlike Mystra having to spread her power out among her Chosen). This would give other gods a chance to either take portfolios from Cyric and "bleed" off some of his power as he assimilates Bhaal's power.
When Cyric kills off Leira, it postpones his ability to fully assimilate Bhaal's power, and means that part of Bhaal's power, enough to make someone a god, spread out in all of the Bhaalspawn and now fully able to be accessed by them.
So how do the Bhaalspawn fit into this? Bhaal did intentionally father mortal children. But for what? Was Bhaal really that much more ahead of the game than the other gods that he set up this convoluted "backup" system? Maybe, but maybe not.
Perhaps the whole purpose of the Bhaalspawn was to create the perfect killer. In a way, Bhaal was setting up an experiment in survival of the fittest. Each of the Bhaalspawn strives against opponents and one another, trying to kill one another and then becoming an even better killer if they survive. Rather than being a means of preserving his power, the creation of the Bhaalspawn was really about just creating one champion of Murder.
When Bhaal died, at least some of his priesthood has decided that perhaps this is what their brilliant god intended ALL OF THE TIME. How wise is our god to have had this plan in place? His children each have some of his power, they must have this in order to rivive him!
On the other hand, Sarevok, being a Bhaalspawn that "knows the game," a little better than some others, has decided that its not so much about finding a champion, or even about bringing Bhaal back, but about one Bhaalspawn collecting all of the power of them all.
Bhaal didn't father the last round of Bhaalspawn because of the Time of Troubles coming, but because he was creating another "bracket" for his game.
Now, after the whole saga has played itself out, and a bunch of "Murderenergy" has been collected, enough to make someone a god (and potentially take over as the god of Murder), and then refused and dispersed, (in fact, the "Bhaalspawn Saga" begins the year that Cyric looses the portfolio of Death to Kelemvor) the dispersed energy slowly gets gathered in by Cyric (in fact, this may be part of why he manages to stay a Greater God even after loosing Death and Tyranny to Kelemvor and Bane) after Abdel Adrian refuses the power.
Now, moving into the present, and the reference to the Bhaalspawn battling for dominence in LEOF, all it takes is to know that there may have been other bloodlines of Bhaalspawn, ones that weren't "first generation" and as such weren't able to advance Sarevok's plan, but still possesed of some of Bhaal's traits. Its likely some cults of Bhaal still exist that understood the original purpose of the "Bhaalspawn" game, to create a perfect killer, and that they are encouraging this "orthodox" view of the Bhaalspawn and their stuggles against one another.
So in the end you may stil have some "Bhaalspawn" of second, third, etc. generation fighting one another to see who can become the greatest killer, not so much to assume Bhaal's position.
Yes, I like the idea of a twisted kind of Highlander thing going on here . . . |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2007 : 02:13:16
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Actually...those are some interesting ideas you've thrown out there.
Regarding Cyric--interestingly enough, in the game (but not the novel) he has a little talk with the PC in person to try to make sure that the PC won't eventually intrude on his domain. At the end of the meeting, he sics his assassins on the PC under the guise of "training" the PC because he knows he can't simply kill the PC outright (lest Mystra and Kelemvor, etc. get involved). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Xandos Anskul
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 05:34:40
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Speaking as one who is finishing up the entire BG series as we speak (for about the 3rd or 4th time):
The PC Game describes Bhaal as specifically forseeing his own death, which is why he walked Toril and made the Bhaalspawn shortly before the Time of Troubles. On your pocket plane, a Solar reveals your past to you: your mother was a priestess of Bhaal, one of many chosen to have one of his children. The purpose of this was for all of the mothers to sacrifice their babies and children, leaving no one of them to gather up the essence but have it rather reform as Bhaal. Gorion of Candlekeep and others found out about this, breaking up the ceremony and rescuing some (the player character) and letting others die while others escaped on their own (Sarevok). And yes, in the game Cyric does try to own you indirectly. |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 07:31:39
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However, The Throne of Bhaal's backstory conflicts with that of Baldur's Gate 1. In that, a letter written by Gorion tells you that your mother was a close friend and ex-lover of his, and died giving birth to you. There are numerous theories to explain this: Gorion made the whole thing up to protect you; your mother was Gorion's ex-lover AND a priestess of Bhaal, though he didn't know it at the time and later went into denial about it; the Solar lied for some reason involving "The Greater Good"; the Solar was a fiend and/or a servant of Cyric in disguise; and several others. All it really boils down to is that the writers of ToB cocked it up (and yes, they did later admit to this  ). |
Edited by - nbnmare on 26 Feb 2007 07:51:33 |
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Xandos Anskul
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 13:12:10
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| True... if you have to reconcile them, the one that probably makes the most sense is he lied to protect you (Obi-wan style). Otherwise its like "Yeah, I killed your mom." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 23:54:18
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| I never did care for the revelation scene regarding the PC's mother in ToB. The player is even told that the PC was conceived during the Time of Troubles, which--if true--would have made the PC no older than 13 or so (if they weren't even younger). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 26 Feb 2007 23:54:39 |
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boddynock
Learned Scribe
Belgium
258 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 17:47:21
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quote:
[i] Now, that's not to say you could not use it for your campaign, but you will not find any canon sources. The only products regarding the game Wizards had any hand in were the novelizations done of the game (possible the worst FR books ever done).[/blue]
good point. I have more than a handful FR-novels and one of them goes about Baldur's Gate (i think it was city of Amn). I didn't like the book 'cause the only thing that happened was bashing. I stopped reading when i was in the half. |
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boddynock
Learned Scribe
Belgium
258 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 10:34:26
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| Bhaalspawn is mentioned in "empires of faerun". So, they are canon now. |
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Ulicus
Acolyte
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2007 : 13:08:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Minardil
What was year of the Bhaalspawn saga (Story of Baldur's Gate)? Manuals say it's either 1369 or 1373. I ask this becouse I'm planning a grand adventure for my players.
Heh. Four years late, but for anyone who's still interested in the exact placement of "Bhaalspawn Saga" in canon then I can say, with reasonable certainty that everything went down in 1368 DR.
Baldur's Gate ends "late in the summer of the year of the Banner" (BGII:SoA page 1). So, sometime in early-to-mid Elient.
Shadows of Amn is implied to take place over "a month" (BGII:SoA 186), which takes us into early-to-mid Marpenoth.
And on the first page of Throne of Bhaal, the date is listed Marpenoth 1368 DR. When it ends depends on how long it takes for the events of ToB to get done, but I imagine that it all finished up sometime in Uktar.
In other words... it all happened before Kelemvor's ascension and the fall of Zhentil Keep. Which is a pretty vital point that I'll be bringing up in a campaign I'm running that ties the novels' events (and Abdel's rejection of divinity) with the rise of Kelemvor.
Let's just say that Kelemvor's realised that he's inherited a divine essence (and part of a portfolio, since I've not gone with the 'Myrkul has death' retcon) with plans of its own. |
"Bane" = "Xvim" = Cyric, Prince of Lies |
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Aina Grey
Acolyte
Austria
43 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 17:47:04
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the handbook (and the in-game journal) of BG1 tell that the events start in Flamerule 1371, 13 years after the ToT
does ToB really reveal that CHARNAME was conceived during the ToT? must have missed that, the three or four times I went through the game...
cause I read an interview with one of the creators of BG 1 or 2, can´t remember which, that says that the protagonist is around 19 or 20 when the game starts... (and it is pretty obvious that in the game the protagonist is indeed not 12-14) |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 20:59:22
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| No, it doesn't explicitly say that all the Bhaalspawn were conceived during the Time of Troubles. I've seen that supposition mentioned a number of times, but in the games themselves there's nothing that says that the Bhaalspawn couldn't have been conceived long before the Time of Troubles. Bhaal saw the writing on the wall long before his death and had plenty of time to plan and set his plans in motion. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 02:11:59
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The apparition of the PC's mother in the PC's pocket plane mentions that during the Time of Troubles Bhaal "whispered into her ear" that she would give birth to one of his spawn. That implies that the PC was actually born during or after the Time of Troubles, even though that doesn't make sense.
That's not saying anything about other Bhaalspawn though, just the PC. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Apr 2008 02:12:23 |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 03:20:32
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| And even then, since the continuity between BG1 and ToB suffers at times, the veracity of those statements are fairly hazy leaving lots of wiggle room. I've even seen it suggested that the apparitions testifying for the Solar in the pocket plane are saying what the Solar wants them to say; truth or not. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 16:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
However, The Throne of Bhaal's backstory conflicts with that of Baldur's Gate 1. In that, a letter written by Gorion tells you that your mother was a close friend and ex-lover of his, and died giving birth to you. There are numerous theories to explain this: Gorion made the whole thing up to protect you; your mother was Gorion's ex-lover AND a priestess of Bhaal, though he didn't know it at the time and later went into denial about it; the Solar lied for some reason involving "The Greater Good"; the Solar was a fiend and/or a servant of Cyric in disguise; and several others. All it really boils down to is that the writers of ToB cocked it up (and yes, they did later admit to this ).
Just for a simple fix here, the main character's mother could have easily been Gorion's lover before becoming a priestess of Bhaal. That would make abundant sense IMO. Also, being male and an ex-lover, Gorion would very likely have tried to "save her from her folly." |
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Finder
Acolyte
Canada
9 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 15:36:00
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KnightErrantJR, I really like your post but you are forgetting something.
quote:
"So how do the Bhaalspawn fit into this? Bhaal did intentionally father mortal children. But for what? Was Bhaal really that much more ahead of the game than the other gods that he set up this convoluted "backup" system? Maybe, but maybe not."
Yes many of the Gods were "ahead" of the game. If you remember Bane had many such plans in action. To name only a handful (slight pun haha). There was "The Hand of Bane" which possed a spark of Banes Divine essence. The Baneliches which also possessed in some form a piece of Bane and who's mission was to bring bane back to life. Also we can not forget banes own son, Xvim (who's story I liked) was actually pretty much a living seed of Bane.
Even Finder Wyvernspur an extremely young and weak demi power even had the Finder's stone as a source to resurrect him if need be. Moander seems to have at least half a dozen such items documented. So I would guess that it is pretty common for dieties to have a contingency plan in place.
Besides that I kinda agree with your post. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 17:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Finder
KnightErrantJR, I really like your post but you are forgetting something.
quote:
"So how do the Bhaalspawn fit into this? Bhaal did intentionally father mortal children. But for what? Was Bhaal really that much more ahead of the game than the other gods that he set up this convoluted "backup" system? Maybe, but maybe not."
Yes many of the Gods were "ahead" of the game. If you remember Bane had many such plans in action. To name only a handful (slight pun haha). There was "The Hand of Bane" which possed a spark of Banes Divine essence. The Baneliches which also possessed in some form a piece of Bane and who's mission was to bring bane back to life. Also we can not forget banes own son, Xvim (who's story I liked) was actually pretty much a living seed of Bane.
Even Finder Wyvernspur an extremely young and weak demi power even had the Finder's stone as a source to resurrect him if need be. Moander seems to have at least half a dozen such items documented. So I would guess that it is pretty common for dieties to have a contingency plan in place.
Besides that I kinda agree with your post.
Actually, I don't know of any evidence that suggests that any of the Bane stuff you mention was part of a contingency plan. Besides, even if it was, why so many plans -- and why was one foiled simply by it being a woman that tried to pull it off? The Baneliches, despite having some of his divine essence, weren't capable of bringing him back. Xvim showed little inclination to do so on his own. And we don't really know the circumstances of Bane's return. It could have been that he was as surprised by it as anyone. Or -- the theory I favor -- Bane never did return; Xvim is impersonating him and using his name.
And as I've said before, I find the idea of the ultimate tyrant planning for his defeat to be out of character.
The Finder's Stone wasn't a backup plan -- that was purely him being reckless.
The part of Moander that remains wasn't a contingency plan, either. Elves trapped him. That's not a contingency plan, that's a happy accident for him. An "oh crap!" moment becoming the only hope for survival isn't much of a plan. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Aug 2008 17:04:55 |
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Finder
Acolyte
Canada
9 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 14:50:43
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Wooly Rupert, I don't know man, if you give Tymora's Luck and perhaps Finder's Bane, it is pretty much discussed at length by Finder, and pushed by the Banelich to get these items to perform a ritual to resurrect the tyrant.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlnovel/085830000
http://www.amazon.com/Finders-Bane-Forgotten-Realms-Lost/dp/0786906588
You are right Xvim didn't know and was not interested in his fathers return. But that doesn't mean Bane hadn't created him in his own foresight of one day being killed. I don't have it in front of me but the FR 3rd ed guide pretty much says Bane had planned his resurrection all alone and Xvim had or was his living seed.
So again I say it appears to be a common practice for God's to have a contingency plan, even as you point out Finder whom is a reckless God had one. I sold the novel but I believe it went something like this "I keep a piece of my essence inside the Finders Stone, much like the hand of Bane. If I was to be killed, you could Find my body in the astral plan and perform a ritual to resurrect me" Again I admit I'm completely paraphrasing this but that’s basically what he said. What you might be thinking about is when he placed his entire divine spark into the finder’s stone, which was not his contingency plan, but away to get into that godless city which is escaping my memory right now.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 17:00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Finder
Wooly Rupert, I don't know man, if you give Tymora's Luck and perhaps Finder's Bane, it is pretty much discussed at length by Finder, and pushed by the Banelich to get these items to perform a ritual to resurrect the tyrant.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlnovel/085830000
http://www.amazon.com/Finders-Bane-Forgotten-Realms-Lost/dp/0786906588
You are right Xvim didn't know and was not interested in his fathers return. But that doesn't mean Bane hadn't created him in his own foresight of one day being killed. I don't have it in front of me but the FR 3rd ed guide pretty much says Bane had planned his resurrection all alone and Xvim had or was his living seed.
So again I say it appears to be a common practice for God's to have a contingency plan, even as you point out Finder whom is a reckless God had one. I sold the novel but I believe it went something like this "I keep a piece of my essence inside the Finders Stone, much like the hand of Bane. If I was to be killed, you could Find my body in the astral plan and perform a ritual to resurrect me" Again I admit I'm completely paraphrasing this but that’s basically what he said. What you might be thinking about is when he placed his entire divine spark into the finder’s stone, which was not his contingency plan, but away to get into that godless city which is escaping my memory right now.
I have those novels, and I've read them recently. Finder put his essence in the Finder's Stone so that he could pretend to be mortal, and then again to enter Sigil. He gave it no more thought than that -- it was not a contingency or a failsafe or anything like that, it was simply him trying to go on another adventure. If it had been some sort of failsafe, do you think he would have just left it in his pocket?
The Banelich couldn't resurrect Bane because it wasn't alive. More than anything else, that tells me that the function of Baneliches had nothing to do with bringing Bane back if something happened. There's also nothing about that in the supplement that first intro'ed the Banelich, the Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set. From the MC entry in that box:
"Tired of his faithful becoming victims, every 50-60 years Bane chose the most powerful priest within the anks of his clerics and revealed to him or her a foul rite that would transform he caster, through force of faith, strength of will, and Bane' divine hand, into a powerful, immortal form -- lich of Bane, or Banelich."
and
"In ancient times Baneliches used their remarkable powers to spread the word of Bane across Faerûn and defend the god's faithful. They were supposed to serve as ultimate guardians of the faith. Many Baneliches were worshiped as demipowers and were referred to as the "Mouths of Bane" by any who came into contact with them. However, once the followers of the good Faerûnian deities, especially Lathanderites, learned of the existence of a Banelich, they gathered in force to destroy it before the creature's power became too great. As a further problem, each Banelich considered himself or herself to be the natural leader of the church, and was reluctant to relinquish temporal power to a living High Imperceptor. This caused grave internal problems within the church. Consequently, Bane was not entirely satisfied with his Baneliches and chose not to reveal the dark ritual to any of his priesthood after 1010 DR. Before this date, records have revealed signs of at least 35 Baneliches coming into existence, and the deaths of only 10 have been documented."
And the FRCS does not say Bane had planned his resurrection, nor even hint at it. Faiths & Pantheons says it seemed -- their specific wording -- that Xvim had been a incubator for Bane, but it not only does not say that specifically, it also does not mention it being any kind of plan. Just because something happened doesn't mean it was planned.
I actually have three theories on Bane's return. Two of them build off of Fzoul's actions. It's possible that Xvim had some of Bane's essence, but not enough to do anything until Fzoul went around and killed a bunch of the Baneliches. Then those returned bits of Bane's essence achieved a kind of critical mass, allowing Bane to be reborn. Theory 1 is that this was planned, though not a lot backs this up. Theory 2 is that it wasn't planned. Not much backs this one up, either. My third theory is that Bane hasn't returned at all, and that Xvim is using his name to increase his own power. The fact that the new Bane acts like Xvim in some ways backs this one up.
So I return to my original point: there is no evidence whatsoever that any god other than Bhaal -- and not having read those books, I can't comment on them -- planned for his own resurrection. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Aug 2008 17:02:40 |
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Finder
Acolyte
Canada
9 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 20:28:37
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Wooly Rupert, I had to sell those two novels. lol. But There was apart of the story while they were on the ship where Finder's Avatar tells joel about how Joel could possibly bring Finder back from the dead with the Finder's stone (which at that time only possed a very small amount of his divine essence/spark) and related to why the Priestess of Bane was after "the Hand of Bane". He explained it very well. Later The Priestess and the Banelich were actually on Bane's corpse flooting on the Astral plain about to cast the ritual to bring Bane back. However Jaz(sp) swooped down and pretty much knocked the hand of bane from the banelich destorying it.
Not too sure about Fzouls part in Banes return, but I stand behind what I said about Xvim.
I also will ask you a question. To have a contingency plan do you believe you need to know when and how you die? |
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Bhaalspawn saga
