| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| hobbitfan |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 10:27:13
So I finished Elminster in Hell yesterday, only my second FR Greenwood novel.
Overall, I liked it a lot more than I expected. It was, especially in the beginning, rather disjointed and kinda confusing. Large chunks of the novel read like short stories loosely connected by a framing piece of the devil bulldozing through Elminster's memories.
I seemed to either really like the flashbacks/stolen memories (ones with Mirt for example) or they were rather bland. Some of them, I'm still mystified why they were even mentioned. Mixed bag there.
For me, the narrative of the book would have been improved if the various memories had been tied better to Elminster's life or had connected with each other better.
Stuff I really liked:
1. Mystra turning to Halaster to help rescue Elminster. Now THAT was a surprise and a very cool idea. I almost wish he had had a more active role at the end and had shared the rescue with the Simbul.
2. I like the idea of Elminster using the trip dowm memory lane to make his friends aware subconsciously that he's in trouble and needing help. Teh fact that he's playing the devil and the guy's not aware is great.
Stuff I didn't like:
1. The book had one too many endings. It didn't need a big battle and rescue in the Hells then a big battle when they get back to Toril. It made that battle feel throw away and very anti-climactic.
2. The segments in Hell really weren't that interesting. There was only one real villain developed and all he really did was torture elminster and complain about how long stuff was taking. Introduce some interesting other devil characters and use them for more than throwaways and I think the narrative would have been much stronger.
For example, what if one of the memories had been of a devil summoned to the Realms who gets banished back to the Hells. That same devil then shows up in the Nine Hells segment then with an axe to grind.
3. The big battles with the Simbul fighting the devils and rescuing Elminster weren't interesting, with the exception of her dropping a mountain on top of the devils. Aside from that, I wasn't impressed by any imaginative use of spells, etc. on her part.
Overall, I enjoyed the read. I'm glad I picked the book up, as it was a ton better than Spellfire (the last Greenwood FR book i read).
I have to figure out what if any of the other Elminster books between this one and the Herald I plan on picking up.
I'm gonna try and do the Sundering books so the Herald is on my list. Just not sure about Elminster's Daughter and the other 3.
Who knows I may like these books well enough and decide to pick up the earlier Elminster stories.
edit: I just realized I misremembred. I have read 2 of the three cormyr books so i have read som Ed stuff he co-wrote with others. Completely slipped my mind. Bed time i guess
You guys and gals be good!
Hobbitfan the sleepy halfing
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 02 Aug 2014 : 01:03:53
How the Hand of Fire book arc was planned to play out is somewhere in Ed's many scrolls in the Chamber of Sages. Someone with a way better record keeping system or search-fu than me can point you to the right place. I'm not sure she was originally envisaged to die.
-- George Krashos |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Aug 2014 : 18:21:07
My only problem with it was the fatal ending. I'm guessing that would have been the same with 5 books. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 03:06:01
"Hand of Fire" was the speedy butchery foisted on Ed by the Books Dept. when they told him that his 5-book Shandril arc was now a trilogy and he better get cracking and sort her out ... *sigh*
-- George Krashos |
| Seravin |
Posted - 30 Jul 2014 : 18:35:01
El in Hell (it's more fun to rhyme) was a fun read for me beacuse I liked all his memories. And I love me some Simbul; with fun appearances by Halastar and others.
For some reason, I really like Crown of Fire. To me it is the most readable of Ed's novels; which have a certain style that tends to put some readers off. Usually way too many characters, way too many gates, and a lot of deus ex machina going on. But Crown of Fire I can return to and love (Mirt is awesome!). I didn't like Spellfire (although the Shadowdale and Knights parts are great) and HATED WITH A FIERY PASSION Hand of Fire. That book should be re-written.
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| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 19:59:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think they would respond to an organized attempt to seize territory, or to anything that could seriously upset the balance of power. But Mystra's attack wasn't much more than a raid -- she wasn't trying to depose anyone, and she wasn't accompanied by an army. Something like that, I can see the other lords sitting back and watching, and leaving their colleague to his fate.
Agreed. And even if Mystra had taken some drastic action, like slaying Asmodeus, there would be no reason for any other archdevils to try and stop her.
#1) If Asmodeus can't handle her (and we know he can't), the rest would just get stomped anyway.
#2) Asmodeus looks impossible to dethrone. Even Mephistopheles didn't think he could take him after his upgrade in the Twilight War trilogy. So what's more logical than allowing a far more powerful god to dethrone your rival, and then taking the throne without expending any resources? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 16:38:37
As far as the debate about how unified the Lords of the Nine are, I think the answer is simple. They hate each other. No two ways about it. They might be lawful evil, but they would never risk their personal safety or power by rushing in to help another out. Instead, they'd wait for the smoke to clear and then try to fill the power vacuum themselves. In fact, if you read Ed's history of the lords, you'll see this has happened before. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 07:52:48
This book was a hard read.
It's great for Realmslore, though.
My favorite line from the book was uttered by a devil, "Avernus welcomes all," (page 317 of the hardcover).
That would be such a cool thing for a devil to say to a group of soon-to-be-dead Player Characters. |
| hobbitfan |
Posted - 27 Jul 2014 : 05:20:39
I didn't notice anything unusual about the novel's depiction of the Hells, other than wondering why dragons were there.
Honestly, it's been such a long time since 2E stuff I read about the Hells that I didn't remember much details to compare the depiction to.
And I never played Planescape so i never got famililar with planar details to start with.
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 26 Jul 2014 : 03:32:51
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There are problems with that idea.
At the time of El in Hell, Geryon wasn't a lord of hell. He hadn't been a lord since 2e, when the Dark Lord stripped him of his authority and reinstated Levistus as Lord of the Fifth. It gets even worse when the other FR novels are brought in, previous novels have made references to the baatezu, the Gray Waste and Baator long before El in Hell was published.
@Wooly - You're thinking in terms of tanar'ri. The Lords are Lawful Evil. They may have rivalries with each other, but I highly doubt that they would broadcast that weakness to the rest of the Planes, much less allow a greater deity to run amok on Avernus. Hell itself is home to many other powers, and that just broadcasts weakness on behalf of the Dark Lord and his vassal Lords if some rampaging good deity can humiliate Avernus's military with no reprisal. What's stopping Set from booting Levistus off the throne of Stygia and taking over the fifth layer?
Your Planescape Hells are not my Forgotten Realms Hells. I know nothing of this Planescape and refute that it holds sway on any aspect of the Realms. Ed's vision of the Hells gave birth to those Planescape Hells - perhaps those Hells should show some respect to their creator.
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Jul 2014 : 00:01:13
I think they would respond to an organized attempt to seize territory, or to anything that could seriously upset the balance of power. But Mystra's attack wasn't much more than a raid -- she wasn't trying to depose anyone, and she wasn't accompanied by an army. Something like that, I can see the other lords sitting back and watching, and leaving their colleague to his fate. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 25 Jul 2014 : 20:32:45
There are problems with that idea.
At the time of El in Hell, Geryon wasn't a lord of hell. He hadn't been a lord since 2e, when the Dark Lord stripped him of his authority and reinstated Levistus as Lord of the Fifth. It gets even worse when the other FR novels are brought in, previous novels have made references to the baatezu, the Gray Waste and Baator long before El in Hell was published.
@Wooly - You're thinking in terms of tanar'ri. The Lords are Lawful Evil. They may have rivalries with each other, but I highly doubt that they would broadcast that weakness to the rest of the Planes, much less allow a greater deity to run amok on Avernus. Hell itself is home to many other powers, and that just broadcasts weakness on behalf of the Dark Lord and his vassal Lords if some rampaging good deity can humiliate Avernus's military with no reprisal. What's stopping Set from booting Levistus off the throne of Stygia and taking over the fifth layer? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jul 2014 : 20:07:00
I should also think that the various Lords of the Nine would happily sit back and let someone go against one of their number. It's not like these guys are a unified, cohesive group -- it's everyone for themselves, and if one of their number can't stand up to an assault, then that one has no place among them. |
| Blueblade |
Posted - 25 Jul 2014 : 18:42:39
Ah, but LordofBones, your very use of the term "Lords of the Nine" and for that matter "Baator" means you're operating from a different view of the Nine Hells than Ed's (DRAGON 75,76, and 91) - - and what Ed wrote in El in Hell fits squarely with his (official, canon-for-the-Realms) depiction of the Hells: the outermost/uppermost layer is very spottily ruled/policed, which is why all the outcast devils (some of whom appear in El in Hell) lurk there. It's left that way partly as a relief valve, partly as a lure to outsiders to enter the Hells and perhaps venture deeper so they can be captured and exploited, and partly because of the (relatively) weak ruler of that layer.
An assault on any other layer would provoke a response in force, but it still wouldn't be the massed Lords of the Nine, who don't trust each other enough to cooperate that swiftly and seamlessly. I recall the GenCon "Paladin in Hell" (inspired by the full-page AD&D PH illustration) panel with Gary Gygax, Len Lakofka, etc. in which they discussed this very sort of invasion, in detail. Armies of devils would be mustered and flung at any lasting intrusion, but what Mystra did was appear, blast, then depart the Hells and send AN empowered underling, to prevent provoking a huge response.
I realize the Hells have been retconned literally half a dozen times over the years, but Ed explained, in another thread here at the Keep, (partly in response to Shemmy, if I recall correctly) his discussions with the TSR Books Dept. folks of the day re. what was "official" at the time of his writing the book, and getting approval from Books AND Games re. the state of things and what Mystra could do in regards to Asmodeus, so El in Hell was bang-on official and correct, and was from the pen of the only D&D "expert" on the Hells.
I totally understand that your view of the Hells is different, but that's like the guy who watches a 1960s movie where someone runs for a phone booth in an emergency and then decries its lack of realism because they didn't just reach for their cellphone. I get how it wrecks your suspension of disbelief, but there are actually legal agreements re. what's canon Realmslore and how canon gets made and modified, and Ed is bound by them and followed them when writing El in Hell.
(This happens to be a topic I'm very interested in, so I've followed discussions of this book over the years, here at the Keep and elsewhere, and listened to Ed's GenCon Q&A about it, and so on. Like the infamous Three Fates of Alusair, it's an example of how sticky canon Realmslore matters can get.
BB |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 25 Jul 2014 : 15:36:23
Millions die in the Blood War every day. I doubt a few thousand deaths is something they care about. That's how I viewed that situation. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 25 Jul 2014 : 12:41:52
So Mystra charges into Baator, butchers baatezu by the thousands, and somehow isn't met by the enraged Lords of the Nine, who threw two entire pantheons out for disturbing the "peace" of the Hells? And then launches an assault on the Dark Lord of Nessus?
My suspension of disbelief went out the window long before the Dark Lord showed up. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 25 Jul 2014 : 02:57:44
This is one of my favourite Ed novels. I could have read a thousand pages of Elminster memories. Awesome realsmlore.
-- George Krashos |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 19:30:57
I haven't read all of Ed's books in the Realms, but I agree that Ed's writing has improved a lot since his earlier books, at least to my tastes. Heck, when I was reading Waterdeep, I could swear that I could pinpoint which parts of the novel were written mainly by Ed.
The problem I had with most of Ed's earlier works was that the plot seemed to be all over the place. That's why when I reached Elminster in Hell, I felt that the story suited his writing style really well and I liked the book a lot.
I think his writing style has reached a good style since the Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy though. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 13:30:08
Damn you just me realize that i haven't read this book myself. I think i have a copy lying around somewhere but... sigh
So many books so little time. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Jul 2014 : 07:12:02
I'd say you should read them all Hobbitfan. I don't want to go into my reasons for this advice as it would lead to spoilers for you. All I can say is that having read them will make little parts of the Herald make more sense and reveal things about their importance. Basically, they build on each other in little ways in addition to the big overarching El's timeline way. |
| Delwa |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 14:31:28
If it helps, Elminster in Hell was the first Ed novel I tried to read. I have yet to finish it, because once I got to the flashbacks and kinda got bogged down, I decided to read them in order.
Making of a Mage was a lot easier to read, as was Myth Drannor. I've not finished Temptation of Elminster; that's the one I'm currently working on, but I got distracted by The Herald. I will say the Herald was the easiest read for me yet. Maybe it's because of the anticipation, but still, much better read than the others.
Elminster aside, Ed's Waterdeep novel with Elaine Cunningham was really good, and I've read the first Cormyr book. It seems Ed's writing, for me at least, is like wine in reverse. The more he writes, the better it gets. |
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