| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Oeryn |
Posted - 17 May 2021 : 23:42:30
I'm in the prewriting stage for a short story (mostly for personal reasons, as I had an idea for a character that I really liked) which involves a worshiper of Eilistraee. While I know that it's not as prevalent anymore after the whole debacle with Eilistraee and Vhaerun, there's a scene I'm planning that does involve the Changedance. Issue being, I can't find any details on the dance outside of the fact that its end result is a change in the sex of the dancer, and that the dance is subtly different depending on the start and end-points of the dance.
Does anyone know where I can go to find more specifics? I would particularly like to know whether it's a detailed ritual that involves multiple people, a dance that a single individual can perform, or some mixture of the two. Thanks in advance!
(Do note that, while moderately familiar with aspects of it, I'm not particularly well-versed in the lore of the Forgotten Realms--all of my exposure comes via the wiki and novels, as I've yet to find the opportunity to play an actual game) |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 17:06:40
Honestly, with how heavily Smedman and Athans have tried to force their "Eilistraee is just Lolth, except she believes herself to be good" shit, I would personally avoid any kind of overlap entirely (especially because the message that people would get from an overlap could be something like: "see? Eilistraee and Lolth aren't that different, after all"). The sour taste is still in my mouth, and after all these years there are still people who say that Eilistraee is just the same as Lolth, despite those books having been retconned.
If anything, to explore the angle of the family, Lolth is the only one who could be changed to become a character that makes sense. |
| TKU |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 16:57:52
Yeah, my day would have been more fun without learning about the latest development in Drow lore.
But I was thinking about those gender ratios in Lolth's clergy and musing about gender roles in non-Menzoberranzean drow society. Could be an interesting writing project to develop-the explicitly trans-exclusionary aspect to Drow society that got introduced in 5e really rubs me the wrong way, and I think drawing a few connections between Eilistraee and Lolth such as some overlap with rituals, practices, dogma etc would be interesting. Vhaeraun already has a little of that with his mother and sister, so I think the mother/daughter angle could be explored a little more. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 21 May 2021 : 14:20:53
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Demihuman deities gives some really interesting statistics for the breakdown of the clergy of the various Dark Seldarine faiths. Interestingly, Selvetarm was the only one whose ratio of minority gender clergy reached a double-digit percentage. Lolth was actually near the middle of the pack so to speak with just under one in twenty of her clergy being male, but surpassing both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. I can see why Eilistraee might want to take steps to mitigate the gap there with that particular statistic.
Those steps have already been taken, and Eilistraee has been having male clerics for a long time now, without the need for the changedance, which has instead turned into a possibility to transition (both ways) for people wanting to.
Not that it really matters, since WotC has taken the final step to be free to forget about all non-Lolth deities forever, by having RAS create drow cultures that are exactly the same as Eilistraee's, while acting like that was some groundbreaking move, and obviously keeping Eilistraee out of it entirely. |
| TKU |
Posted - 20 May 2021 : 21:22:05
Demihuman deities gives some really interesting statistics for the breakdown of the clergy of the various Dark Seldarine faiths. Interestingly, Selvetarm was the only one whose ratio of minority gender clergy reached a double-digit percentage. Lolth was actually near the middle of the pack so to speak with just under one in twenty of her clergy being male, but surpassing both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. I can see why Eilistraee might want to take steps to mitigate the gap there with that particular statistic.
Of course, I don't think Menzoberranzean was ever depicted as having male clergy members, but I do wonder how their inclusion in the clergy of more obscure drow settlements would effect their culture. Maybe a little milder with their doctrine and zealotry with the social status of the genders.
I have wondered if something analogous to the changedance could have existed in a city like Guallidurth that tolerates a much higher degree of heterodoxy than Menzoberranzean. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 May 2021 : 14:29:27
Lolth used to allow male priests up to 7th level in 2e, yes. That doesn't change anything in regard to what I said: Lolthite cities are ruled by her priestesses, and those among her priestesses who are high-ranked enough to rule, are all trash. Lolth's society is bonkers levels of stupid and cruel (aside from being an example of poor worldubilding--no, tons of details don't automatically make for decent worldbuilding), and it's the iconic matriarchal culture of D&D. Basically, the iconic "women in power" of D&D literally consist of this pathetic cliché: "women in power are just irrational beings of cruelty and nastiness". That's even more blatant when RAS has Drizzt comparing Lolth's society to the patriarchal barbarians, who instead feel "natural".
Eilistraee having a partnership society that traditionally has women in position of leadership is indeed a refreshing take, and I'd say a much needed one. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 20 May 2021 : 12:40:35
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Especially when on the other side you have Lolth screaming: "hurr durr, women in power=always (since *all* Lolth's priestesses are crap) bad! Hurr durr".
I think there were a couple of male priests of Lolth mentioned in one FR novel or another. I want to say one of Salvatore's, but I can't recall exactly. I'm fairly sure they weren't from one of the hardline-Lolth cities (e.g. Menzoberranzan), which may have been why.
Given Lolth's general attitude to the drow I would expect that in some cases she lets the "unthinkable" happen, such as a male priest, entirely because she finds the chaos it causes hilarious. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 May 2021 : 07:35:56
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Let's be fair, the average drow male isn't going to be enthused that the goddess of redemption is basically a nice Lolth that makes them swap genders. Drow males are basically second-class citizens (unless you're Gromph or Dyrr or the Spider-Mage, who are powerful enough to laugh at the system), so that bit up there about drow females not trusting males reads more like that they're worried their lessers might get ideas. Even the whole 'walk in their shoes' thing is really, really dumb, because a male drow turned female and a female drow turned male are going to get very, very different reactions while walking down a drow city instead of the Eilistraeen priesthood's temples and I can't even begin to fathom just how moronic is would be for Eilistraee to allow this to continue.
Amusingly enough, Vhaeraun enforces no such thing among his priesthood. It's an interesting plot point that nobody really tries to work with, because Eilistraee would then have to wrestle with how her brother's clergy is more accepting while her own looks like a watered down version of her mother's.
And let's also be real, if you flipped Eilistraee's and her clergy's genders, the outcry would make that orc racism thing look like a preschool argument over sweets.
It's a mildly fetishistic part of the clergy that glosses over the rank of the average drow male versus the average drow female. Not even in the real world were women treated as disposable breeders and showmares that had the very real chance of ending up over a sacrifical altar to a demon goddess.
I agree, the changedance and the whole thing about trust problems towards male priests were really bad ideas, that also created a massive amount of confusion regarding the treatment of males in Eilistraean communities. The lore is very explicit that males receive the same help and welcome as females--see the article about drow social relationship, for example. Or, I mean, the whole *core* concept behind Eilistraee being an empowerer for all drow. Yes, even more than a redeemer. Most drow have very little to redeem for, and a lot of healing to do instead. In most of Eilistraee's lore, "redemption" doesn't even get mentioned, and her teachings are much more about healing and rediscovering self-worth and the beauty in life (and definitely not about repenting). Returning to the main point, people were led to think that males were automatically treated as subhuman, when the contrary is true.
Don't get me wrong, though: I really like that Eilistraee's culture is generally matriarchal. It follows the model of a partnership culture (as opposed to the other kind, the domination based cultures--like most RW cultures are). It's based on nurturing and empowering its people, as well as working together towards propserity and valuing caretaking activities (rather than treating society like a 0-sum game). It's nice to see a positive society depicted with women being in position of leadership as the cultural norm (since it's not something you really see in D&D. The only decent matriarchy I can think of is old Evermeet--and that's arguable). Especially when on the other side you have Lolth screaming: "hurr durr, women in power=always (since *all* Lolth's priestesses are crap) bad! Hurr durr". The fact that women often occupy position of leadership doesn't make the society oppressive: as Ed said, those women must act as an extension of Eilistraee's role of a nurturing mother for the drow, and actually work for the interests of their people. This is made even more blatant by the fact that Eilistraee's society canonically lacks a real hierarchy (plus their tendency towards taking daily meetings to openly discuss stuff), that there has never been any rule preventing males from becoming leaders, and literally anyone--so, including males--is likely to be given the reins of the situation, if they have expertise in the matter hand, even when they aren't in a position of leadership (this is also from one of Ed's replies in 2006--he also said that, in the 1370s, experties was the most usual way for males to get to be in the decision-making position).
About the male *clergy*, specifically, the gist was that there was a problem that males couldn't fully cleave to Eilistraee, since her nature as goddess (which Ed mentioned being tied to motherhood, with even hints to female fertility, in another 2006 answer) acted as an obstacle (the whole "her dance couldn't be felt except as a female" thingy). Especially because Eilistraee's clerics are supposed to be an extension of her role of mother over the drow. The Changedance was the first step to flatten this obstacle: spending time as a female would help the clerics to connect more with all the facets of their goddess (note that I'm not a fan of this explanation either--parenthood is experienced by people of any gender). That said, now Eilistraee's canonically able to have male priests without any problem at all, and the Changedance has canonically become a tool of self-expression, not reserved to clerics and available to anyone who wants to transition.
quote:
I can't even begin to fathom just how moronic is would be for Eilistraee to allow this to continue.
Eilistraee definitely doesn't let the Changedance thingy go on as a requirement (nor males needing an extra step to become her priests), and instead turned it into a tool of self-expression. I mean, this sort of was the point of starting the whole thing to begin with (as badly handled of a narrative idea this was). This evolution in her church (clerics being of all genders, no strings attached) is really old news (2015, if I'm not mistaken).
In any case, as I said, the new aspect of the changedance (a way to transition m->f and f->m) was essentially Ed making lemonade out of lemons.
quote:
Amusingly enough, Vhaeraun enforces no such thing among his priesthood. It's an interesting plot point that nobody really tries to work with, because Eilistraee would then have to wrestle with how her brother's clergy is more accepting while her own looks like a watered down version of her mother's.
Re: Vhaeraun's clergy being inclusive, that's really not a plot point. The lore about his priesthood has had some big Vhaeraunite organizations, tied to and/or part of the church, treat women like breeders multiple times and far before Smedman and Athans started to smear the non-Lolth drow deities with their crap (see EC's Starlights&Shadows, or the Chaulssin supplement). Problems of this kind certainly weren't missing. However, it could have been a plot point in the Eilistraee&Vhaeraun drama, if it had been organized with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun stopping wasting resources and lives fighting each other, and Vhaeraun helping Eilistraee with the obstacles in making male priests. The two sibling learning from each other to smooth their rough edges has always had a lot of potential for character development.
Of course, in this regard, I'm ignoring all of Smedman's and Athans' drow stuff, because it's been retconned into oblvion and WotC is pretending it was neever written, and because Smedman's/Athans' stuff was written with the explicit goal to make people dislike Eilistraee, before the 4e removal (like, even Erik de Bie commented that WotC considered that result a win. There's also Perkins' comment about Drizz't&RAS' cast needing to be the only "real good drow", so they couldn't tolerate the idea of a goodly drow culture--matriarchal at that!). Those two "authors" took *a lot* of lines/core parts of Eilistraee's lore, sniped them, and turned them upside down in the worst way possible. Even the more obscure parts of lore that are wholesome, the duo went out of their way to distort them into something sick (like when the Eilistraeans hunt clearly innocent lycanthropes for no reason at all in WotSQ, while they are explicitly said to be friends with the lycanthropes of that very area in the lore, and to regularly join them in moon-worshipping celebrations). On top of that, the whole story that the two of them put together was based on assumptions that were blatantly false, because they needed to warp the setting and characters for their story to even start happening. That's how far they went.
If we were to include Smedman/Athans' stuff (which--again--WotC themselves have erased and don't even dare to mention), there wouldn't even be a discussion to have. Those two depict Eilistraee as exactly like Lolth, except self-righteous and obsessed with some weird fetish about the drow being guilty of being drow (when Eilistraee's the exact opposite of this). The thing that they portray is absolute trash as a faith, and has nearly all the worst traits you can think of (extreme discrimination, dogmatism, strict hierarchy, abuse, dictation of faith, self-hate/concepts of random guilt out of your ass, sending friggin' kids to suicide missions, absolute lack of compassion--to the point of executing defenseless drow--a love for pointless violence, militarism--"we will conquer this land by sword!!11!" or whatever crap Smedman vomited--and more). Vhaeraun basically was "the good guy" of Lady Penitent, and Vhaeraun literally holds Nazi-like ideas... But then again, the thing that Smedman and Athans depict is the direct contrary of Eilistraee, except in name. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 20 May 2021 : 07:26:52
It's worth noting that Eilistraee gained a large number of male followers when her church temporarily merged with Vhaeraun's.
Since the church did not split upon Eilistraee's "death" in the Lady Penitent trilogy, but rather transitioned to the umbrella of Corellon's protection, it's probably safe to say that the male and female worshippers kept together for collective security and got a strong dose of Corellon's religion in the process.
A hundred+ years later, Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun returned. Their worshippers would have started many families together in their absence, and the dead ones of course are thriving in Elistraee's section of Arvandor (3e Faiths and Pantheon - her exile had ended, though it hasn't been determined when).
As such, the current state of Eilistraee's church in the 1490s would probably be much more mixed than when she had left, with many sons and daughters of those she left behind.
Also, on a side note, Vhaeraun's exile from Arvandor would also be over since all of his faithful in the afterlife would have been living in Arvandor for a hundred years by the time he returns, and it would greatly harm relations and reputation among the Seldarine to just kick all of them out (especially since Vhaeraun no longer holds the same grudges towards Eilistraee and probably also his father as before).
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 20 May 2021 : 05:04:50
Let's be fair, the average drow male isn't going to be enthused that the goddess of redemption is basically a nice Lolth that makes them swap genders. Drow males are basically second-class citizens (unless you're Gromph or Dyrr or the Spider-Mage, who are powerful enough to laugh at the system), so that bit up there about drow females not trusting males reads more like that they're worried their lessers might get ideas. Even the whole 'walk in their shoes' thing is really, really dumb, because a male drow turned female and a female drow turned male are going to get very, very different reactions while walking down a drow city instead of the Eilistraeen priesthood's temples and I can't even begin to fathom just how moronic is would be for Eilistraee to allow this to continue.
Amusingly enough, Vhaeraun enforces no such thing among his priesthood. It's an interesting plot point that nobody really tries to work with, because Eilistraee would then have to wrestle with how her brother's clergy is more accepting while her own looks like a watered down version of her mother's.
And let's also be real, if you flipped Eilistraee's and her clergy's genders, the outcry would make that orc racism thing look like a preschool argument over sweets.
It's a mildly fetishistic part of the clergy that glosses over the rank of the average drow male versus the average drow female. Not even in the real world were women treated as disposable breeders and showmares that had the very real chance of ending up over a sacrifical altar to a demon goddess. |
| questing gm |
Posted - 20 May 2021 : 01:40:26
Ed has answered a question about the Changedance before on his Twitter, and confirmed that it works for both genders to change to the other.
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1349026671739940870 |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 May 2021 : 00:22:37
Well, at least Ed made some lemonade out of lemons, and now established it as a possibility to physically transition (both m->f and f->m) that can be granted to anyone. Which is super fitting for Eilistraee, since reaching to marginalized people/outcasts is a big thing for her. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 19 May 2021 : 23:53:51
-Oh man, I recall of the...gnashing of teeth that that caused back in the day. iTs sExIsT!!!1111! |
| Irennan |
Posted - 18 May 2021 : 04:55:00
You can ask Ed himself on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
He's already provided a whole detailed description of an Eilistraean marriage, of the Last Dance, and other stuff. I'm pretty sure that, if he finds time, he'll also give you a description of the Changedance. |
| Oeryn |
Posted - 18 May 2021 : 02:54:23
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Change dance was posted by Ed Greenwood here at Candlekeep a few years ago.In newer to the question of male clerics.
Thanks a lot for the response, though that isn't quite what I'm looking for--I perhaps should have clarified that I'm after descriptive details, like what the preparations for it look like, how it feels to perform, what it might look like to an observer, and so on.
Incidentally, I did come across that response when looking into whether or not Eilistraee had male clergy.
Again, thank you for the response! |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 May 2021 : 01:11:03
Change dance was posted by Ed Greenwood here at Candlekeep a few years ago.In newer to the question of male clerics. From about Nov 05, 2006 so sayith Ed, via the hooded one quote:
It is true that for some decades in the Realms (the time covered by the Realms boxed sets of both the 1st and 2nd Edition) there were apparently no male clerics of Lolth and no male clerics of Eilistraee, and no non-drow clergy of either goddess.
However, matters have changed.
Some (not all!) priestesses of Eilistraee believe the Dancer is worried about something dark she’s foreseen. Others disagree - - but all admit the Goddess has, for reasons she’s not divulged, changed the directives she gives her clergy and lay worshippers, to become far more inclusive.
For one thing, the “dream visions” she’s sent to senior established clergy have begun to direct them to accept both males and individuals of many races into the ranks of her clergy. (So, yes, Kentinal, a goblin priestess, gnome priestess, silver dragon, hill giants, and male priests of all stripes now ARE possible. We still don’t know [not being able to personally quiz Eilistraee] if there are any races that remain unacceptable as her clergy, but whereas before the answer was: all of them except drow, and female drow at that, the answer now is: possibly; all certainty is gone.) There are even apparently lycanthropes and shapechanging races among the clergy of Eilistraee.
Yes, you heard me right: there now ARE a few males among her church, but to enter it they have all “Danced The Changedance” and spent time as female, just as Mystra caused Elminster to spend time as Elmara - - and for the same reasons: greater understanding and sensitivity of “the life of the other gender.” One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female, and so her (still very rare, few, and generally secretive about it) male priests must spend some time as a female (not just for the duration of a ritual, but they must do some everyday living as a female). The most accomplished drow, elf, half-elf, and human male priests seem to feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to “cleave more fully to the Goddess” and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form. Not all female priests of the Goddess fully trust the males, and they don’t tend to rise much in the church hierarchy (no matter what character levels they achieve).
More than that, many drow priestesses of Eilistraee are unhappy about this, and may prove hostile (not to the point of violence or refusal to accept or aid, but with a coldness in manner and a wary “always watching over” any males, until they achieve acceptance on a personal level [e.g. “I still don’t hold with allowing males - - males! - - to join the dances, but Elorand can be trusted; he’s proven himself over and over, and don’t think we haven’t tested him. Other males, I still don’t trust!”). Eilistraee has always had enough personal contact with her clergy that none of them would think of disbelieving that she truly means this “new way” to occur and to be followed - - and no established priestess of Eilistraee will renounce this new order, either. (“Reluctantly accepting and unhappily coping” is a good description of their state; “defying the goddess and rejecting males or trying to trick or lead them into fatal mishaps so we can be rid of them” would NOT be an accurate characterization.)
There wasn’t a single date or clear moment when the acceptance of males and non-drow began; it seems to have been slowly and almost secretively occurring over a decade or so. However, as of 1373 DR, “everyone” among the clergy of Eilistraee now seems to be aware of it.
Zandilar, Eilistraee has always gained converts and made herself known to drow through dream-visions and personal appearances (usually dancing in moonlit woods). Many, many drow long to return to the surface and live among trees (it’s a race instinct, that some recognize for what it is - - whereas other drow just feel always unsettled and edgy, and usually turn this into fighting amongst themselves, and family and/or trading rivalries), and Eilistraee has far more worshippers than the drow who dwell under the firm influence of Vhaeraun or Lolth (who is by far the most powerful of drow deities) would have one believe. I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerûn worship Eilistraee - - although I must again remind scribes to set aside any modern monotheistic thinking: in the Realms, the vast majority of intelligent beings worship many or at least several gods, NOT just one. It’s not easy to truly believe in and worship Lolth and any other drow deity, but a particular drow individual COULD venerate both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (though they’d serve neither well, in trying to follow or honour both). Drow who ONLY worship Eilistraee are almost entirely her clergy, and are probably between 10 and 12 percent of all drow.
(I would echo Zanan in ranking the “popularity” of drow deities as: Lolth by a long shot, then Vhaeraun, but thereafter I would put Eilistraee ahead of Selvetarm, and Ghaundaur last of all. As of this moment, that is; faiths and their deities rise and fall over time, and right now Lolth is the only one I would bet on being around in the far future, if one purely considers divine power. Faraer is quite correct, however, to remind us that “worship isn’t the sole determinant of godly might, or Waukeen would be far greater than Mystra and Shar.” Wooly Rupert is also dead-on when he observed “If Lolth had her way, there would be no drow pantheon - - just her.”)
Every drow who sets out on an expedition to the surface, to raid, gets “tempted by Eilistraee in their dreams” (visions sent into their minds, whether they’re asleep, in Reverie, lying wounded or bored, singing or otherwise concentrating on something, or daydreaming alone or working on some repetitive task like painting or weaving). She also sends visions, in exactly the same manner, to drow who never go near the surface.
Many drow literally don’t understand the visions; they feel but don’t “feel” the Goddess. Others find Her troubling, or reject Her - - but about a quarter of all drow yearn for what she shows them. They may never do anything about it, or may never seek Her or Her worship, but they certainly feel Her.
So almost all drow learn of Eilistraee’s existence, and even receive a true picture of what it is (Lolth can’t stop that, because she too uses the dream-vision approach, and to try to block others from using it would rob her lay worshippers of much sanity, her priestesses of much daily control over those lay worshippers, and herself of much control over her priestesses). Not all that many reject Lolth and cleave to Eilistraee, but many secretly yearn (meaning they might spare a stricken worshipper of Eilistraee if they think no priestess is watching, or fail to pass on to other drow something they may have seen of the activities of faithful of Eilistraee, or stop to watch a dance of Eilistraee worshippers rather than disrupting it).
As for which pantheon Eilistraee belongs to: pantheons are a purely mortal frame of reference, or way of classifying and speaking of divine beings they can never wholly understand. Eilistraee clearly began as, and primarily remains, a drow deity - - but has exiled herself from the formal company of all other deities (though she’s friendly to Selune and Mielikki, and at least polite to all of the major surface elven deities).
No mortal can be certain why Eilistraee is now embracing males and non-drow as worshippers, but we do know it’s been going on for some time, and is now openly Her policy (NO clergy of Eilistraee can fool themselves into passing this off as an idea promoted by this or that high-ranking priestess; they KNOW the Goddess Herself is promoting this). There are still certain church “offices” (Sword Dancers and other prestige classes) that seem restricted to females only, but this may only appear to be the case because no males have yet attained those offices - - we literally no longer know if there’s a divine prohibition.
It was reported more recently that a Change dance can effect a change of female to male as well. |
| NonProphetApostle |
Posted - 18 May 2021 : 00:25:55
Looking at the wiki pretty much just confirms everything you have already said, but on a bright note basically all of the references say Ed Greenwood. Which means he probably wrote it, whether or not he can tell us is a different matter. lol |
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