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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Drizztsmanchild Posted - 21 Oct 2020 : 07:17:05
I just noticed this today. From the description it sounds like one of the questions in Relentless is answered
https://www.harpervoyagerbooks.com/book/9780063029798/unti-drizzt-4/
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Delnyn Posted - 25 Aug 2021 : 01:09:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

By the way, so far, what I've heard described of these drow in this story, despite it being so "wrong".... I find it great. See I look at it as these are drow that think they're better than everyone else, and unlike those "other horrible drow", they say the "proper" things that are supposed to be said. In other words, they're hypocrites, and they're using the fact that they have better "tech" to validate their horrible behavior. They probably take every chance they can to tell all those "uninformed" people just how "uninformed" and "clueless" they are and preach on how their society is so much better as a result. Of course, their society being so much better, its okay then if they perform some overtly horrible act in order to keep their society functioning. I mean, its all for "the greater good" in the end. If it weren't for all those "horrible other unlearned people" then things would be okay....

sound familiar?


Sleyvas, this sounds like something a gold elf noble would say. Oops, should I address a gold elf as Ar'Tel-Quessir?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 24 Aug 2021 : 15:36:18
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



I hear you on that. I'm enjoying the witcher series (just started the last one today), but after this book, even IF the author has something else, I need to go on to another author. I will probably actually pick up some of the latest 5e stuff that I bought and "meant to read" before getting sidetracked, but then I can only read so much game material before I need a novel again.



I've been actively varying my reading more, of late. For casual reading, I usually grab a novel -- though sometimes I'll grab manga or a gaming book, if I'm not eating whilst I read. I'm also reading two gaming books right now (The Mwangi Expanse for Pathfinder 2E and Dragons of the Sixth World, an older Shadowrun source). I keep one of those near but not in each "reading room" so I can grab one whilst stepping in there. And there's usually a gaming pdf open on my computer at work, though some days I barely have time to bring up the file.

Still, though, even with all that, I still try to refrain from reading too much from one author at one time.
sleyvas Posted - 24 Aug 2021 : 14:03:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lamora

@Wooly Rupert: Any chance you can tell me what book you are talking about? It sounds interesting, and I would like to check it out.



The Rook. It's one of the very small number of books I've wanted to re-read as soon as I was done reading it.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamora


Its a sa day for me. The local library has this book for free, and I just don't have any interest in getting it. I have kept up with Drizzt for a while. I missed the last trilogy, but I have read almost all other FR books by Salvatore. I am just tired of Drizzt (though I have seen that he is barely in this book anyway). Bob needs a brand new character to write about. Which he won't ever get to do because no more novel lines. Its just a warrior character can only be taken so far. 30 plus years of Drizzt being one of the best warriors in the Realms is enough for me. Maybe if Drizzt had been a Wizard... I am curious if the character would have taken off just as much if Bob had decided on a wizard instead of a ranger.



It's the sheer number of books, there. I was already getting bored with Lord Ginsu by the time The Thousand Orcs books ruined the character for me.

Even if it's one of my favorite authors and they change the characters up, I simply can't read that much from one person in one go. I've got to mix it up, some.

Raymond E Feist is one of my favorite authors. His Riftwar books span something like 2 or 3 centuries. Some characters last the entire series, but mostly, each group of books intros new characters (though often related to prior ones). And still, I can't read all of it in one go. I have to read a few, read something else, and then come back to it and repeat.

I had the same issue the last time I tried to read all of Weis & Hickman's Dragonlance stuff: by the time I got to the last trilogy, all I could think about was reading something else. Weis & Hickman, like Feist, are among the few authors that can sell me something just by slapping their name on it -- but more than like 6 or 7 books, and I need something else. A palate cleanser, if you will.

This, I think, is part of the issue with the RAS stuff: a lot of books, but not enough new characters, not enough different directions being explored. I get that he's branched out some, away from the Companions, but it's still with long-established characters, and it takes like 20 books to get to that point.



I hear you on that. I'm enjoying the witcher series (just started the last one today), but after this book, even IF the author has something else, I need to go on to another author. I will probably actually pick up some of the latest 5e stuff that I bought and "meant to read" before getting sidetracked, but then I can only read so much game material before I need a novel again.
jordanz Posted - 24 Aug 2021 : 06:51:39
quote:
Originally posted by Lamora

@Wooly Rupert: Any chance you can tell me what book you are talking about? It sounds interesting, and I would like to check it out.

Its a sad day for me. The local library has this book for free, and I just don't have any interest in getting it. I have kept up with Drizzt for a while. I missed the last trilogy, but I have read almost all other FR books by Salvatore. I am just tired of Drizzt (though I have seen that he is barely in this book anyway). Bob needs a brand new character to write about. Which he won't ever get to do because no more novel lines. Its just a warrior character can only be taken so far. 30 plus years of Drizzt being one of the best warriors in the Realms is enough for me. Maybe if Drizzt had been a Wizard... I am curious if the character would have taken off just as much if Bob had decided on a wizard instead of a ranger.



How about a warrior with grandmaster Monk abilities....?

But I get what you're saying...it appears that RA has put Wulfgar on the shelf for the foreseeable future...
Wooly Rupert Posted - 23 Aug 2021 : 22:37:44
quote:
Originally posted by Lamora

@Wooly Rupert: Any chance you can tell me what book you are talking about? It sounds interesting, and I would like to check it out.



The Rook. It's one of the very small number of books I've wanted to re-read as soon as I was done reading it.

quote:
Originally posted by Lamora


Its a sa day for me. The local library has this book for free, and I just don't have any interest in getting it. I have kept up with Drizzt for a while. I missed the last trilogy, but I have read almost all other FR books by Salvatore. I am just tired of Drizzt (though I have seen that he is barely in this book anyway). Bob needs a brand new character to write about. Which he won't ever get to do because no more novel lines. Its just a warrior character can only be taken so far. 30 plus years of Drizzt being one of the best warriors in the Realms is enough for me. Maybe if Drizzt had been a Wizard... I am curious if the character would have taken off just as much if Bob had decided on a wizard instead of a ranger.



It's the sheer number of books, there. I was already getting bored with Lord Ginsu by the time The Thousand Orcs books ruined the character for me.

Even if it's one of my favorite authors and they change the characters up, I simply can't read that much from one person in one go. I've got to mix it up, some.

Raymond E Feist is one of my favorite authors. His Riftwar books span something like 2 or 3 centuries. Some characters last the entire series, but mostly, each group of books intros new characters (though often related to prior ones). And still, I can't read all of it in one go. I have to read a few, read something else, and then come back to it and repeat.

I had the same issue the last time I tried to read all of Weis & Hickman's Dragonlance stuff: by the time I got to the last trilogy, all I could think about was reading something else. Weis & Hickman, like Feist, are among the few authors that can sell me something just by slapping their name on it -- but more than like 6 or 7 books, and I need something else. A palate cleanser, if you will.

This, I think, is part of the issue with the RAS stuff: a lot of books, but not enough new characters, not enough different directions being explored. I get that he's branched out some, away from the Companions, but it's still with long-established characters, and it takes like 20 books to get to that point.
sno4wy Posted - 23 Aug 2021 : 22:25:31
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That was just an example, there are many other workarounds. Communities tend to develop methods to face lean times and scarcity of resources, they aren't like "oh well, when those times come, we'll just work hard!".

In fact, with the kind of magic the aevendrow have, they could easily streamline it into "tech". They could develop magically empowered greenhouses to farm food, then store cereals and other easily conserved food for future use (such as when the antimagic field activates). The magic greenhouses would likely require little to no maintenance, considering the kind of setting RAS "built", and the people would still be free to focus on whatever the hell they want without a worry in the world.

I mean, at least this would show some basic (well, extremely basic, given that their magic is silly) capacity for innovation and progress, rather than relying on "I snap my fingers and the world does what I want" for everything.



Yeah, no, they don't do that. For literally millennia they just work harder during the magic dead time.
Irennan Posted - 23 Aug 2021 : 21:50:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
Its just a warrior character can only be taken so far. 30 plus years of Drizzt being one of the best warriors in the Realms is enough for me. Maybe if Drizzt had been a Wizard... I am curious if the character would have taken off just as much if Bob had decided on a wizard instead of a ranger.



Wizard characters can also only be taken so far. Any character can only be taken so far, because their conflict as a "human" is what matters, not their power (even if they're non-human, they're still actually human, because the human lenses are all tat you have to write a story). So yeah, Drizzt as a wizard would have had a very simlar reception, and would suffer from the same exact problems now.

If quality is your goal, a story has to begin as late as possible (when the character's "survival system" shows symptoms of no longer working in their everyday life) and end as early as possible (if the transformation arc is doneand the consequences have been shown, then the story is done). Drizzt stopped being a character not because he's a warrior, but because he's become a bunch of stuff that RAS considers moral virtues on a stick. He's been watered down for so long that homeopathic remedies pale in comparison.

Of course, RAS' goal isn't quality, but just milking the cash cow, so all of that is irrelevant.
Irennan Posted - 23 Aug 2021 : 21:40:32
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Stored magic doesn't work during their magic-dead time. During that time, they're basically in an anti-magic zone.



That was just an example, there are many other workarounds. Communities tend to develop methods to face lean times and scarcity of resources, they aren't like "oh well, when those times come, we'll just work hard!".

In fact, with the kind of magic the aevendrow have, they could easily streamline it into "tech". They could develop magically empowered greenhouses to farm food, then store cereals and other easily conserved food for future use (such as when the antimagic field activates). The magic greenhouses would likely require little to no maintenance, considering the kind of setting RAS "built", and the people would still be free to focus on whatever the hell they want without a worry in the world.

I mean, at least this would show some basic (well, extremely basic, given that their magic is silly) capacity for innovation and progress, rather than relying on "I snap my fingers and the world does what I want" for everything.
Lamora Posted - 23 Aug 2021 : 21:33:28
@Wooly Rupert: Any chance you can tell me what book you are talking about? It sounds interesting, and I would like to check it out.

Its a sad day for me. The local library has this book for free, and I just don't have any interest in getting it. I have kept up with Drizzt for a while. I missed the last trilogy, but I have read almost all other FR books by Salvatore. I am just tired of Drizzt (though I have seen that he is barely in this book anyway). Bob needs a brand new character to write about. Which he won't ever get to do because no more novel lines. Its just a warrior character can only be taken so far. 30 plus years of Drizzt being one of the best warriors in the Realms is enough for me. Maybe if Drizzt had been a Wizard... I am curious if the character would have taken off just as much if Bob had decided on a wizard instead of a ranger.
Eldacar Posted - 22 Aug 2021 : 14:48:27
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I'm not familiar with all the iterations of what happens to magic items that go in and out of anti-magic zones throughout the editions, is there ever a time when doing such a thing permanently messes up the magical item? For instance, a bag of holding stores items in an extradimensional pocket, but being exposed to a magic-canceling effect could get rid of that magical pocket, right? Or otherwise sever the association?


Not particularly - while there are some occasional (and rare) edge cases, generally when a bag of holding or portable hole is in an antimagic field, it simply doesn’t work until removed from the field. The field suppresses magic, it doesn’t actually disjoin the item. However, effects created by a deity, or artifact-level magic, is unaffected, being “too strong” for the field to suppress.
sno4wy Posted - 22 Aug 2021 : 06:01:48
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

@sno4wy

Why don't they just store cures and food beforehand (with their unlimited creation magic and with super easy access to ice), so in the days when magic goes away they still have all they need without any effort? Why would they need or want to "work hard", rather than spending time into mastering skills, improving themselves, and so on? Why can't they keep in shape just by doing fitness, training, learning to fight and stuff?

Idk, it feels so pointless to introduce this sport (that apparently everyone enjoys practicing, which is weird) and the grapes thingy as a justification for good physical shape, "just like Menzo". Also because that sport certainly won't give the same result as constnatly being a step from being killed.



Stored magic doesn't work during their magic-dead time. During that time, they're basically in an anti-magic zone. Jarlaxle tried to reach into one of his bags of holding and found that he couldn't access any of the items stored, it was just a mundane and empty bag.

Of course, once the magic-dead time passes, everything goes back to normal, like a light switch. I'm not familiar with all the iterations of what happens to magic items that go in and out of anti-magic zones throughout the editions, is there ever a time when doing such a thing permanently messes up the magical item? For instance, a bag of holding stores items in an extradimensional pocket, but being exposed to a magic-canceling effect could get rid of that magical pocket, right? Or otherwise sever the association?

The sport thing is indeed really silly. Aspiring athletes train all year for it. I'd also be willing to bet that if anyone pointed out to Bob that the citizens of Callidae hardly experience the same kinds of danger that the citizens of Menzo do, he'd argue that oh, but they live in the brutal north where the very weather is their enemy and oh not here are giants, polar worms, and now slaadi who are constantly trying to invade them, all the while conveniently ignoring the fact that WITHIN Callidae it's a veritable paradise.
jordanz Posted - 20 Aug 2021 : 07:29:41
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

Two things:

1) RA Salvatore writing about dark elves is beating a dead horse that's been dead for 20 years......of course it's boring. He's been doing the same trick for 20 years.

2) His highly touted "fight scenes" are just a bunch of word salad. I never did get it.

There are so SO many great authors out there who don't get nearly the credit they deserve for their characters and story development.

I'm looking squarely at Richard Baker.

Compare and contrast The Last Mythal trilogy vs....well anything else.




The Last Mythal trilogy was amazing. I also think Richard Lee Byers deserves an honorable mention for the "Unholy" trilogy...
Irennan Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 21:14:24
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the blood in the wine thing... it CAN depend on the representation. But for them to specifically call this out in the novels makes me think that the point was to "point out something". Drinking blood is something that has long been thought of as evil (i.e. vampires).... and now my mind as a result of typing this just went somewhere I didn't expect.... or at least somewhat barbaric. What would be interesting to note would be "whose blood"... is it the blood of animals who have been slaughtered for food (wait, they make their food with magic, no)? Is it the blood of their own people or their enemies? Is there secretly a group of vampires living amongst them that like living in the far frozen north because its dark for long periods?




From my understanding of sno4wy's explanation, they have gladiatorial fights in vats filled with grapes, so that the juice is squeezed out (a bit like in the past farmers would "dance" on the grapes to squeeze out the juice--rather 'eww' if you ask me, but yeah....), and at the same time some blood (from the cuts) goes into the juice. However, the fighters don't die, and the wounds are probably healed up like they're nothing afterwards, so there's no harm in this. Slaughtering animals, for example, would have indeed been interesting, and it would have pointed at something given that they can just conjure food, but this is actually harmless.

Idk, it just sounds like some edgy addition to me, given the context. Something like "they're so good and kind, but they still have this 'feral' instinct that they satisfy with harmless gladiatorial combats and blood-flavored wine", a bit like Drizzt and his hunter thingy. Don't get me wrong, channeling dark sides of your personality into constructive or harmless things is actually a worthy topic to explore, but unless it's actually explored throghout the whole story, it's just tacked on for the edge/shock factor ("omg, they drink blood??!1?? So edgy, and dark, and dangerous, and cool, and...")

As for the memory erasure, I pointed it out because if the story had actually tried to tell us something, that would have been golden material to do so. Instead, we see it condoned, which is very telling of what the author was trying to do.



Interestingly enough, I find it more abhorrent that they're effectively drinking the blood of sentients (its akin in some ways to cannibalism), though like you say... unless there's something else, it was probably added for shock value (and rereading, he says wrestling, not like swordfighting, so imagining the chances of death are generally small, and the amount of blood released is probably small). In my mind though this does break the original presentation that this culture is being presented as superior... they have blood sports... they drink blood from sentients in their drinks... so, as I see it, the drow of say Rhymanthiin might be more civilized than these dark elves, and maybe these guys are essentially bored elitists with a penchant for isolationism.



Maybe, that's one of the things that I was trying to say. RAS tried hard to make them look so civilized and awesome: he invaded the thoughts of his characters and even the scenes themselves with his author megaphone, screaming the stuff that he wants the readers to perceive and romanticizing/rationalizing the problematic aspects, but the actual content fails to deliver that impression.

If a Mary Sue is a character that gets praised in ways they don't deserve (just 'cuz they're so kewl, not because they deceive other characters/put on facades, that's fair game), and "wins" when they don't deserve to "win" (the story hands stuff to them, basically), then this society is a Mary Sue society.
Irennan Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 20:44:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

@Wooly
Yep, since human brains are associative, memories of traumas are one of the biggest factors in shaping a brain's "control theory" (a model it creates about how to control your environment, which is a huge part of people's identity).
Even though the example that you made is an interesting situation, and we see a removal of memories leading to a more assertive person, the original identity effectively disappeared. In this case the result was a "more efficient" person, but she could have become that even without giving up her memories. Basically, the erasure of memories made her skip the act of processing the trauma. I'm not saying that this would be a bad thing or a good thing in reality, btw. If that was actually possible for us, it should obviously remain a choice/option for people who suffer from trauma: for some people it could be a good thing, for some other a bad thing, but what's lost in this process should always be made clear to the person (also because this has practical downsides along with the upsides, especially in traumas due to abuse).

For example, in the case of this story, maybe the protagonist would have still become as a more assertive person if her memories had remained and she had processed her trauma, but her experiences could have reinforced her compassion and empathy towards others, and given her a different perspective on her power (using it only for dire needs, for example, because possessing people is a violence. Also, imposing herself limits on what to influence of aperson's life, etc...). Heightened compassion and empathy would have been the result of the part of her identity that the memory erasure sacrificed. Just making assumptions here, to explain what I mean.

About the story itself, IMO, it would have been more interesting if she had chosen to lose her memories, and we were shown the consequences of that choice--both positive and eventually negative--and she had to deal with all that. The choice should have been tied to the fatal flaw of the protagonist, which would have made all the consequences meaningful, rather than having the memory loss happen to her (which is my impression of what happened, from your description). But perhaps the focus of the story wasn't the loss of memory, and that was just a device to get the protag going for the 'real' plot (though in that case I'm left wondering why the author chose to even include the loss of memory and the processing of trauma if they weren't relevant to the core of the story--it would have been better to just start with an assertive character who possessed that power, give her a fatal flaw, and focus on the point of the story).

Basically, from a narrative perspective, if something like memory loss to overcome trauma is included, it's important to the story, so it shouldn't just "happen to" the protagonist. It should be a choice (or at least the reuslt of previous choices), and the character should face all the consequences (if she chooses to lose memory and all goes well, then that's not much of a story). The processing of a trauma also shouldn't stop being relevant all of sudden, including stuff like that in your story means that it's related to the central theme of the story (or that it actually is the central theme itself). Then again, maybe the story actually kept exploring the topic and did things right, after all the only part that I know is the one related to the memory loss itself.




The basic point of the story was that the woman in question was investigating traitors in the ranks of the organization she worked for, and they found out and had her memory wiped. They intended to wipe her whole personality and replace it with something they could use, but she escaped. The story starts after all of this has happened -- so she's got to plug back into her own life, and still figure out who the bad guys were and deal with that.

Luckily, she'd been warned that she was going to lose her memory, so she had prepped by writing letters to herself, giving enough info that the wiped personality could fake it.

The story is kind of an X-Men/X-Files mashup, with the main character being one of the ranking members of an organization filled with supernatural types and working to keep the supernatural out of the public eye.



Sounds quite cool, is the processing of her trauma handled in any way the story?
Irennan Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 19:51:07
@sno4wy

Why don't they just store cures and food beforehand (with their unlimited creation magic and with super easy access to ice), so in the days when magic goes away they still have all they need without any effort? Why would they need or want to "work hard", rather than spending time into mastering skills, improving themselves, and so on? Why can't they keep in shape just by doing fitness, training, learning to fight and stuff?

Idk, it feels so pointless to introduce this sport (that apparently everyone enjoys practicing, which is weird) and the grapes thingy as a justification for good physical shape, "just like Menzo". Also because that sport certainly won't give the same result as constnatly being a step from being killed.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 19:44:26
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the blood in the wine thing... it CAN depend on the representation. But for them to specifically call this out in the novels makes me think that the point was to "point out something". Drinking blood is something that has long been thought of as evil (i.e. vampires).... and now my mind as a result of typing this just went somewhere I didn't expect.... or at least somewhat barbaric. What would be interesting to note would be "whose blood"... is it the blood of animals who have been slaughtered for food (wait, they make their food with magic, no)? Is it the blood of their own people or their enemies? Is there secretly a group of vampires living amongst them that like living in the far frozen north because its dark for long periods?




From my understanding of sno4wy's explanation, they have gladiatorial fights in vats filled with grapes, so that the juice is squeezed out (a bit like in the past farmers would "dance" on the grapes to squeeze out the juice--rather 'eww' if you ask me, but yeah....), and at the same time some blood (from the cuts) goes into the juice. However, the fighters don't die, and the wounds are probably healed up like they're nothing afterwards, so there's no harm in this. Slaughtering animals, for example, would have indeed been interesting, and it would have pointed at something given that they can just conjure food, but this is actually harmless.

Idk, it just sounds like some edgy addition to me, given the context. Something like "they're so good and kind, but they still have this 'feral' instinct that they satisfy with harmless gladiatorial combats and blood-flavored wine", a bit like Drizzt and his hunter thingy. Don't get me wrong, channeling dark sides of your personality into constructive or harmless things is actually a worthy topic to explore, but unless it's actually explored throghout the whole story, it's just tacked on for the edge/shock factor ("omg, they drink blood??!1?? So edgy, and dark, and dangerous, and cool, and...")




This does seem like it's some edgy thing more than anything else -- because seriously, you're going to have to spill a LOT of blood into a vat of wine for anyone to be able to taste it. I'm thinking galloons of blood, not "oh, this guy got punched in the nose and some of the blood is dripping down" amounts.

Admittedly, I'm not a wine maker (or drinker!), but it's simple math: a few drops of a secondary liquid, dropped into a large vat of another liquid, are going to be diluted to undetectable amounts.
sleyvas Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 19:41:50
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the blood in the wine thing... it CAN depend on the representation. But for them to specifically call this out in the novels makes me think that the point was to "point out something". Drinking blood is something that has long been thought of as evil (i.e. vampires).... and now my mind as a result of typing this just went somewhere I didn't expect.... or at least somewhat barbaric. What would be interesting to note would be "whose blood"... is it the blood of animals who have been slaughtered for food (wait, they make their food with magic, no)? Is it the blood of their own people or their enemies? Is there secretly a group of vampires living amongst them that like living in the far frozen north because its dark for long periods?




From my understanding of sno4wy's explanation, they have gladiatorial fights in vats filled with grapes, so that the juice is squeezed out (a bit like in the past farmers would "dance" on the grapes to squeeze out the juice--rather 'eww' if you ask me, but yeah....), and at the same time some blood (from the cuts) goes into the juice. However, the fighters don't die, and the wounds are probably healed up like they're nothing afterwards, so there's no harm in this. Slaughtering animals, for example, would have indeed been interesting, and it would have pointed at something given that they can just conjure food, but this is actually harmless.

Idk, it just sounds like some edgy addition to me, given the context. Something like "they're so good and kind, but they still have this 'feral' instinct that they satisfy with harmless gladiatorial combats and blood-flavored wine", a bit like Drizzt and his hunter thingy. Don't get me wrong, channeling dark sides of your personality into constructive or harmless things is actually a worthy topic to explore, but unless it's actually explored throghout the whole story, it's just tacked on for the edge/shock factor ("omg, they drink blood??!1?? So edgy, and dark, and dangerous, and cool, and...")

As for the memory erasure, I pointed it out because if the story had actually tried to tell us something, that would have been golden material to do so. Instead, we see it condoned, which is very telling of what the author was trying to do.



Interestingly enough, I find it more abhorrent that they're effectively drinking the blood of sentients (its akin in some ways to cannibalism), though like you say... unless there's something else, it was probably added for shock value (and rereading, he says wrestling, not like swordfighting, so imagining the chances of death are generally small, and the amount of blood released is probably small). In my mind though this does break the original presentation that this culture is being presented as superior... they have blood sports... they drink blood from sentients in their drinks... so, as I see it, the drow of say Rhymanthiin might be more civilized than these dark elves, and maybe these guys are essentially bored elitists with a penchant for isolationism.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 19:39:51
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

@Wooly
Yep, since human brains are associative, memories of traumas are one of the biggest factors in shaping a brain's "control theory" (a model it creates about how to control your environment, which is a huge part of people's identity).
Even though the example that you made is an interesting situation, and we see a removal of memories leading to a more assertive person, the original identity effectively disappeared. In this case the result was a "more efficient" person, but she could have become that even without giving up her memories. Basically, the erasure of memories made her skip the act of processing the trauma. I'm not saying that this would be a bad thing or a good thing in reality, btw. If that was actually possible for us, it should obviously remain a choice/option for people who suffer from trauma: for some people it could be a good thing, for some other a bad thing, but what's lost in this process should always be made clear to the person (also because this has practical downsides along with the upsides, especially in traumas due to abuse).

For example, in the case of this story, maybe the protagonist would have still become as a more assertive person if her memories had remained and she had processed her trauma, but her experiences could have reinforced her compassion and empathy towards others, and given her a different perspective on her power (using it only for dire needs, for example, because possessing people is a violence. Also, imposing herself limits on what to influence of aperson's life, etc...). Heightened compassion and empathy would have been the result of the part of her identity that the memory erasure sacrificed. Just making assumptions here, to explain what I mean.

About the story itself, IMO, it would have been more interesting if she had chosen to lose her memories, and we were shown the consequences of that choice--both positive and eventually negative--and she had to deal with all that. The choice should have been tied to the fatal flaw of the protagonist, which would have made all the consequences meaningful, rather than having the memory loss happen to her (which is my impression of what happened, from your description). But perhaps the focus of the story wasn't the loss of memory, and that was just a device to get the protag going for the 'real' plot (though in that case I'm left wondering why the author chose to even include the loss of memory and the processing of trauma if they weren't relevant to the core of the story--it would have been better to just start with an assertive character who possessed that power, give her a fatal flaw, and focus on the point of the story).

Basically, from a narrative perspective, if something like memory loss to overcome trauma is included, it's important to the story, so it shouldn't just "happen to" the protagonist. It should be a choice (or at least the reuslt of previous choices), and the character should face all the consequences (if she chooses to lose memory and all goes well, then that's not much of a story). The processing of a trauma also shouldn't stop being relevant all of sudden, including stuff like that in your story means that it's related to the central theme of the story (or that it actually is the central theme itself). Then again, maybe the story actually kept exploring the topic and did things right, after all the only part that I know is the one related to the memory loss itself.




The basic point of the story was that the woman in question was investigating traitors in the ranks of the organization she worked for, and they found out and had her memory wiped. They intended to wipe her whole personality and replace it with something they could use, but she escaped. The story starts after all of this has happened -- so she's got to plug back into her own life, and still figure out who the bad guys were and deal with that.

Luckily, she'd been warned that she was going to lose her memory, so she had prepped by writing letters to herself, giving enough info that the wiped personality could fake it.

The story is kind of an X-Men/X-Files mashup, with the main character being one of the ranking members of an organization filled with supernatural types and working to keep the supernatural out of the public eye.
sno4wy Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 19:28:50
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
On an unrelated note, I wonder why they don't just conjure wine like they do with everything else. Is it just because they like the wrestling on grapes thingy?



Very good point, and of course one that Bob just glosses over. It makes little enough sense why they freeze the grapes before crushing them the old-fashioned way (supposedly it's to enhance the flavor but scientifically speaking? Yeah, no.), but then the totally unnecessary procedure... I think it's just fanservice tbh. The wrestlers wear a single layer shift, and at the start of one of the matches, a female aevendrow, to "show off her skill" does a handstand at the edge of the vat, which causes her shift to slide down and reveal all of her "goods". Those grape wrestling matches, along with the brutal basketball on ice that's intentionally played during when magic doesn't work, are all supposed to show that the aevendrow work hard and play hard, and such activities are what keeps them in tip-top shape like how the drow in Menzo are. Bob keeps having the 4 protags observe how oh, the aevendrow do this and that but it's all in the name of fun rather than scheming to achieve the same effect as the Lolthites in Menzo.
Irennan Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 16:56:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the blood in the wine thing... it CAN depend on the representation. But for them to specifically call this out in the novels makes me think that the point was to "point out something". Drinking blood is something that has long been thought of as evil (i.e. vampires).... and now my mind as a result of typing this just went somewhere I didn't expect.... or at least somewhat barbaric. What would be interesting to note would be "whose blood"... is it the blood of animals who have been slaughtered for food (wait, they make their food with magic, no)? Is it the blood of their own people or their enemies? Is there secretly a group of vampires living amongst them that like living in the far frozen north because its dark for long periods?




From my understanding of sno4wy's explanation, they have gladiatorial fights in vats filled with grapes, so that the juice is squeezed out (a bit like in the past farmers would "dance" on the grapes to squeeze out the juice--rather 'eww' if you ask me, but yeah....), and at the same time some blood (from the cuts) goes into the juice. However, the fighters don't die, and the wounds are probably healed up like they're nothing afterwards, so there's no harm in this. Slaughtering animals, for example, would have indeed been interesting, and it would have pointed at something given that they can just conjure food, but this is actually harmless.

Idk, it just sounds like some edgy addition to me, given the context. Something like "they're so good and kind, but they still have this 'feral' instinct that they satisfy with harmless gladiatorial combats and blood-flavored wine", a bit like Drizzt and his hunter thingy. Don't get me wrong, channeling dark sides of your personality into constructive or harmless things is actually a worthy topic to explore, but unless it's actually explored throghout the whole story, it's just tacked on for the edge/shock factor ("omg, they drink blood??!1?? So edgy, and dark, and dangerous, and cool, and...")

As for the memory erasure, I pointed it out because if the story had actually tried to tell us something, that would have been golden material to do so. Instead, we see it condoned, which is very telling of what the author was trying to do.
Irennan Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 16:49:13
@Wooly
Yep, since human brains are associative, memories of traumas are one of the biggest factors in shaping a brain's "control theory" (a model it creates about how to control your environment, which is a huge part of people's identity).
Even though the example that you made is an interesting situation, and we see a removal of memories leading to a more assertive person, the original identity effectively disappeared. In this case the result was a "more efficient" person, but she could have become that even without giving up her memories. Basically, the erasure of memories made her skip the act of processing the trauma. I'm not saying that this would be a bad thing or a good thing in reality, btw. If that was actually possible for us, it should obviously remain a choice/option for people who suffer from trauma: for some people it could be a good thing, for some other a bad thing, but what's lost in this process should always be made clear to the person (also because this has practical downsides along with the upsides, especially in traumas due to abuse).

For example, in the case of this story, maybe the protagonist would have still become as a more assertive person if her memories had remained and she had processed her trauma, but her experiences could have reinforced her compassion and empathy towards others, and given her a different perspective on her power (using it only for dire needs, for example, because possessing people is a violence. Also, imposing herself limits on what to influence of aperson's life, etc...). Heightened compassion and empathy would have been the result of the part of her identity that the memory erasure sacrificed. Just making assumptions here, to explain what I mean.

About the story itself, IMO, it would have been more interesting if she had chosen to lose her memories, and we were shown the consequences of that choice--both positive and eventually negative--and she had to deal with all that. The choice should have been tied to the fatal flaw of the protagonist, which would have made all the consequences meaningful, rather than having the memory loss happen to her (which is my impression of what happened, from your description). But perhaps the focus of the story wasn't the loss of memory, and that was just a device to get the protag going for the 'real' plot (though in that case I'm left wondering why the author chose to even include the loss of memory and the processing of trauma if they weren't relevant to the core of the story--it would have been better to just start with an assertive character who possessed that power, give her a fatal flaw, and focus on the point of the story).

Basically, from a narrative perspective, if something like memory loss to overcome trauma is included, it's important to the story, so it shouldn't just "happen to" the protagonist. It should be a choice (or at least the reuslt of previous choices), and the character should face all the consequences (if she chooses to lose memory and all goes well, then that's not much of a story). The processing of a trauma also shouldn't stop being relevant all of sudden, including stuff like that in your story means that it's related to the central theme of the story (or that it actually is the central theme itself). Then again, maybe the story actually kept exploring the topic and did things right, after all the only part that I know is the one related to the memory loss itself.
sleyvas Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 16:39:35
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If they want blood in their wine, I'm now wondering if their overly good representation isn't closer to what I'm talking about (as in they're actually being represented as hypocrites with a moral problem whose focus is only on themselves).



Why would liking blood in wine hint at any of that, though? It's just flavor stuff, and it's harmless. As I said, yeah, the hypocrisy would be an interesting narrative to explore, but the problem comes when the story doesn't show any of that. When, as sno4wy pointed out, the story romaticizes the erasure of memory, by saying that people are willing to have their memories erased because they want to protect Callidae so badly, then the story is condoning the aevendrow. Maybe this will change in future books, but for now we have a story that wants to have its cake and eat it too (by offering a "oh so perfect" society that does bad stuff, while ignoring that such bad stuff is, well, bad, and instead trying to paint it as ok).

-----------

On a related note, erasing memories might sound as not so much to some people, but it's huge. It's the same as erasing a person, or at least a part of that person. Our brains are associative, a huge part of what we think, feel--on a sensorial and emotional level--comes from association with memories. This process is so fast that the impressions related to memory come before our conscious thinking can kick in (and is one of the reasons behind A LOT of people's problems). Memories are very important to our identity, because they are key to the narrative that the brain creates of ourselves, and they massively influence the way we interact with the world (which is why character filter in narrative is so important--it makes the characters feel real). From many recent neuroscience studies, we know that memories are so important to our identity that, when an event doesn't conform to the idea that we have of ourselves at a given time (which also comes from previous experiences and memories), the brain alters the memories of the new event (or even creates events and stuff that didn't actually happen) to make them align with the perception that we have of ourself at the time. Basically, for something to become part of our personal memories, it has to align itself with the idea that we have of ourselves at the time.

It takes a lot of efforts to perceive things objectively (actually, as objectively as we can), and it takes a lot of actively being aware that our brains work like this to overcome all the problems that come from it (like certain kinds of bias and prejudice, or the fact that first impressions are hard to overcome, and that a lot of people don't even try to change them). Trying to forcefully alter someone's memories is however a violence on a deeper level than some would think.

-----

On an unrelated note, I wonder why they don't just conjure wine like they do with everything else. Is it just because they like the wrestling on grapes thingy?



Agreed on the memory wipe thing, and that's why I keep using the term "mind rape" in reference to this.

On the blood in the wine thing... it CAN depend on the representation. But for them to specifically call this out in the novels makes me think that the point was to "point out something". Drinking blood is something that has long been thought of as evil (i.e. vampires).... and now my mind as a result of typing this just went somewhere I didn't expect.... or at least somewhat barbaric. What would be interesting to note would be "whose blood"... is it the blood of animals who have been slaughtered for food (wait, they make their food with magic, no)? Is it the blood of their own people or their enemies? Is there secretly a group of vampires living amongst them that like living in the far frozen north because its dark for long periods?

Now I'm really curious about this, but I may be overblowing the reference.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 16:08:37
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

On a related note, erasing memories might sound as not so much to some people, but it's huge. It's the same as erasing a person, or at least a part of that person. Our brains are associative, a huge part of what we think, feel--on a sensorial and emotional level--comes from association with memories. This process is so fast that the impressions related to memory come before our conscious thinking can kick in (and is one of the reasons behind A LOT of people's problems). Memories are very important to our identity, because they are key to the narrative that the brain creates of ourselves, and they massively influence the way we interact with the world (which is why character filter in narrative is so important--it makes the characters feel real). From many recent neuroscience studies, we know that memories are so important to our identity that, when an event doesn't conform to the idea that we have of ourselves at a given time (which also comes from previous experiences and memories), the brain alters the memories of the new event (or even creates events and stuff that didn't actually happen) to make them align with the perception that we have of ourself at the time. Basically, for something to become part of our personal memories, it has to align itself with the idea that we have of ourselves at the time.

It takes a lot of efforts to perceive things objectively (actually, as objectively as we can), and it takes a lot of actively being aware that our brains work like this to overcome all the problems that come from it (like certain kinds of bias and prejudice, or the fact that first impressions are hard to overcome, and that a lot of people don't even try to change them). Trying to forcefully alter someone's memories is however a violence on a deeper level than some would think.



This one book I read, the main character had the power to control other people's bodies, and also to make them feel pain. Thing was, the discovery of this power was associated with a lot of trauma, so she was never able to do a lot with it, and could only affect people if she was touching them skin-to-skin.

On top of that, the same initial trauma left her very meek and unwilling to stand up for herself.

But then she gets amnesia (actually, all her memories were actively removed). Because of circumstances, she's still trying to live the same life -- but she doesn't know that the previous version of her was notoriously meek, and when she discovers her powers a second time, she didn't know that she'd previously been limited to touch.

So she winds up far more assertive, and able to do a lot more with her powers -- because the memories that had shaped her personality and held her back were now gone.

I thought that was a really interesting exploration of the whole concept of a person losing their memories and how it would affect their personality.
Irennan Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 15:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If they want blood in their wine, I'm now wondering if their overly good representation isn't closer to what I'm talking about (as in they're actually being represented as hypocrites with a moral problem whose focus is only on themselves).



Why would liking blood in wine hint at any of that, though? It's just flavor stuff, and it's harmless. As I said, yeah, the hypocrisy would be an interesting narrative to explore, but the problem comes when the story doesn't show any of that. When, as sno4wy pointed out, the story romaticizes the erasure of memory, by saying that people are willing to have their memories erased because they want to protect Callidae so badly, then the story is condoning the aevendrow. Maybe this will change in future books, but for now we have a story that wants to have its cake and eat it too (by offering a "oh so perfect" society that does bad stuff, while ignoring that such bad stuff is, well, bad, and instead trying to paint it as ok).

-----------

On a related note, erasing memories might sound as not so much to some people, but it's huge. It's the same as erasing a person, or at least a part of that person. Our brains are associative, a huge part of what we think, feel--on a sensorial and emotional level--comes from association with memories. This process is so fast that the impressions related to memory come before our conscious thinking can kick in (and is one of the reasons behind A LOT of people's problems). Memories are very important to our identity, because they are key to the narrative that the brain creates of ourselves, and they massively influence the way we interact with the world (which is why character filter in narrative is so important--it makes the characters feel real). From many recent neuroscience studies, we know that memories are so important to our identity that, when an event doesn't conform to the idea that we have of ourselves at a given time (which also comes from previous experiences and memories), the brain alters the memories of the new event (or even creates events and stuff that didn't actually happen) to make them align with the perception that we have of ourself at the time. Basically, for something to become part of our personal memories, it has to align itself with the idea that we have of ourselves at the time.

It takes a lot of efforts to perceive things objectively (actually, as objectively as we can), and it takes a lot of actively being aware that our brains work like this to overcome all the problems that come from it (like certain kinds of bias and prejudice, or the fact that first impressions are hard to overcome, and that a lot of people don't even try to change them). Trying to forcefully alter someone's memories is however a violence on a deeper level than some would think.

-----

On an unrelated note, I wonder why they don't just conjure wine like they do with everything else. Is it just because they like the wrestling on grapes thingy?
sleyvas Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 14:20:02
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So they just happened in, got the chaos phage, and showed up right as "the power's out" .... and that's why they're going to use "the power" to mind rape them and send them away? I mean if they have magic to "mind rape", they should have power to cure disease. Admittedly, I didn't read the book, and I'm basing this on what I'm being told, but something sounds hinky with this explanation. Maybe its divine magic that's affected by the Autumn Equinox and not arcane?



That's not quite how it goes, but it's on me for not laying out the plot. In my defense though, the sequence of "this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened" is less exciting than some grocery lists that I've read.

Alrighty, so, the four protags were trudging around at the top of the world trying to figure out where Doum'wielle went two years ago after being thrown up there by Gromph. There's an avalanche, Entreri and Catti-brie get injured, the four find a cave to rest in. Zak explores the depths of the cave and finds an egg hatchery tended to by a frost giant. Frost giant didn't like having an intruder and fought with Zak, Zak gets injured and returns to where the others are. They're approached by a drow who's actually a blue slaad in disguise, more fighting ensues, Zak gets infected with chaos phage, they kill the slaad and gtfo from the cave.

Then, more wandering around, eventually finding Callidae. The aevendrow interrogated them and wanted to know literally everything that happened to them since they showed up in the north, they left out the detail about the slaad cave because the slaad's drow disguise spoke in the same dialect that the aevendrow did.

Zak's chaos phage is exposed when he was wrestling with an aevendrow in a vat of frozen grapes because that's apparently part of their wine-making process (they actually like having blood in the wine). The four protags were then seized by these good drow who jumped right to the assumption that they intentionally deceived them, all the while the protags had no idea what they did wrong as they're being exposed to the elements with their warm clothes preemptively stripped away. Charming, right?




Ok, now starting to see a little more of the story, and starting to wonder about it. If they want blood in their wine, I'm now wondering if their overly good representation isn't closer to what I'm talking about (as in they're actually being represented as hypocrites with a moral problem whose focus is only on themselves). This fits the description that Dalor Darden just spoke of, and I feel it could be an interesting topic to explore (i.e. elves that retreat to a portion of the world in order to help only themselves..... sound familiar?). Again, I'm basing this without reading the book, and I'm like 9 books behind in his trilogies because he's so prolific of an author, and I can only read so much of his stuff before I start to tire of the characters and need something else.
Irennan Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 11:14:56
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
[...]how soft and gentle she looks and it's like, how tf is anyone supposed to get that impression from the description? But yeah, lots of stuff like that, all the time.



Yep, typical "invading narrator", the author that invades the thoughts of a character--or outright invades a scene with his giant megaphone--to scream to the reader how they should see/feel about something or someone, even though nothing shows that. Bonus points if that something has little to no relevance to the scene. Idk how a professional with decades of experience can still do amateurish stuff like this.
sno4wy Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 05:04:46
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Yes, that's an important observation, actually. They are able to effortlessly resolve famines and plagues, yet they choose to not do anything. Like, if my understanding is correct, it would cost literally nothing to them. They can summon infinite food (top tier quality, all the flavors you want at that!), which means they can also likely cure illnesses at will (since the power/energy required is roughly the same). They could *teach* this creation magic to others (btw, what kind of magic do they use?), even upon compensation (though they have no use for compensation or resources of any kind, since they have all they need). They could streamline it, produce tomes/manuals and send them everywhere, and make all he world a perfect utopia. This too would cost them little to nothing--if they have all the resources they need, then they have unlimited free time to write those manuals too. However, they choose to do nothing about this and just hide under some glacier, and for whatever reason the story ignores this and labels them as "good" (I'm also willing to bet that RAS sings their praises throghout the book).



It isn't stated what magic they use, unless you mean arcane versus clerical, in which case they use both. There's also supposed to be magic in the aurora borealis, which they call the "Merry Dancers".

Yeah, Bob does indeed sing their praises. So much of the city is so incredibly over the top and unnecessary. For instance, there's this huge multi-story ice slide that's an entryway into the city, and it's so amazing that the guards that regularly go out to scout and return via this slide never get sick of it. And let's not forget the apex of Callidae's customs, the city-wide occasion that's basically basketball on ice in which literally the entire population of Callidae attends.

It's just so flat and uninteresting, the most cringe example for me is when Zak is admiring his aevendrow love interest, and there's this description about how there's something really different about this drow woman than any that Zak has seen before and oh, just look at how she is framed in the doorway of ice. It literally reads like, here is this woman, she is framed in the doorway of ice, and then it goes on to extol how soft and gentle she looks and it's like, how tf is anyone supposed to get that impression from the description? But yeah, lots of stuff like that, all the time.
sno4wy Posted - 19 Aug 2021 : 04:55:52
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So they just happened in, got the chaos phage, and showed up right as "the power's out" .... and that's why they're going to use "the power" to mind rape them and send them away? I mean if they have magic to "mind rape", they should have power to cure disease. Admittedly, I didn't read the book, and I'm basing this on what I'm being told, but something sounds hinky with this explanation. Maybe its divine magic that's affected by the Autumn Equinox and not arcane?



That's not quite how it goes, but it's on me for not laying out the plot. In my defense though, the sequence of "this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened" is less exciting than some grocery lists that I've read.

Alrighty, so, the four protags were trudging around at the top of the world trying to figure out where Doum'wielle went two years ago after being thrown up there by Gromph. There's an avalanche, Entreri and Catti-brie get injured, the four find a cave to rest in. Zak explores the depths of the cave and finds an egg hatchery tended to by a frost giant. Frost giant didn't like having an intruder and fought with Zak, Zak gets injured and returns to where the others are. They're approached by a drow who's actually a blue slaad in disguise, more fighting ensues, Zak gets infected with chaos phage, they kill the slaad and gtfo from the cave.

Then, more wandering around, eventually finding Callidae. The aevendrow interrogated them and wanted to know literally everything that happened to them since they showed up in the north, they left out the detail about the slaad cave because the slaad's drow disguise spoke in the same dialect that the aevendrow did.

Zak's chaos phage is exposed when he was wrestling with an aevendrow in a vat of frozen grapes because that's apparently part of their wine-making process (they actually like having blood in the wine). The four protags were then seized by these good drow who jumped right to the assumption that they intentionally deceived them, all the while the protags had no idea what they did wrong as they're being exposed to the elements with their warm clothes preemptively stripped away. Charming, right?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 18 Aug 2021 : 19:18:26
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

Two things:
1) RA Salvatore writing about dark elves is beating a dead horse that's been dead for 20 years......of course it's boring. He's been doing the same trick for 20 years.
2) His highly touted "fight scenes" are just a bunch of word salad. I never did get it.
There are so SO many great authors out there who don't get nearly the credit they deserve for their characters and story development.
I'm looking squarely at Richard Baker.
Compare and contrast The Last Mythal trilogy vs....well anything else.


"Word salad" I LOVE IT. May I borrow this descriptor for Bob's combat scenes?
Agreed about Richard Baker, although my personal favorite is a different trilogy of his. Still, really happy to see the mention!



For me, Richard Baker tells a better story -- but his characters don't grab me. They feel flat, and like whatever they're doing in the story is just going through the motions. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single character of his that I liked. (Not saying I disliked them; they were all just bundles of meh)

RAS, on the other hand -- I've liked several of his characters, at least until I got tired of reading about them. And I will always dig Jarlaxle.

Admittedly, RAS has also had some characters that were... questionable, at best, IMO. And the fact I've stopped reading his stuff is commentary enough on the stories.
Irennan Posted - 18 Aug 2021 : 19:15:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Moral Licensing often is group inclusive. A group can do well as a whole (even if only to their own group) and then is able to justify bad things (even to outsiders).

This city-state has continued to do good for their own sake (one helping another) that they likely don't see any action they take to preserve their "Goodness" as bad.



Ahh, got it, you were talking about their own perception of their actions. In that case, well yes, I agree. The problem comes when the story itself doesn't show their actions from any other lenses other than their own "heroic" narrative of what they do.
That's easy to do using a PoV that doesn't belong to the society, like RAS does, but you don't even need to use the PoV of an outsider to show the wrong in this soceity's beliefs. You can do that while still filtering everything from their perpsective.

As an example (unrelated to the aevendrow), let's say your character is be a factory owner with a disregard for their workers. They think that workers only think about lazing off and freeloading. So, when this owner enter their factory and sees a worker taking a break, they'll immediately judge that worker negatively.

However, you can make the owner throw a fit of rage when the worker, taken aback by the sudden inspection, mistakenly hits the pile of finished items next to them and makes many of them fall on the ground. The owner will perceive them as an incompetent idiot, will think that this person should have never been hired, maybe make plans to detract the value of the broken items from their pay, or even to fire them. However, at the same time, you will have shown that the worker has actually worked quite a lot, since they made that pile of finished items.

Then the worker might try to salvage the items, and the owner will be even more frustrated by their slow/goofy movements. The owner will perceive such movements as incompetence or lazyness, but you will have shown that the worker is tired. You could even describe (from the owner's PoV) the worker bringing their "dirty hands" to rub their "dead fish eyes", make some comment about the ugly eye bags, etc... to highlight how overworked this person is and at the same time show how the prejudice of the owner colors their perception of the worker with disgust. This is an exaggeration of course, but it's good to show what I mean.

Basically, the point is that you can show the aevendrow perception of their action as justified, while also showing all the wrong in it. So there's no excuse for not doing that, except lazyness or wanting a Mary Sue society. This is especially true for RAS, who doesn't seem to know what a PoV or character filter are, and doesn't shy away from just telling stuff to the reader (with a giant megaphone descending from the sky in the story to make comments), so it would be incredibly easy for him to tell that it's just the aevendrow that perceive their actions as justified.

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