| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bragi |
Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 12:41:46
Context: in my campaign I'm currently running Ghosts of Saltmarsh set in Chessenta (the town of Pandrik). I have substituted the Red Wizards for the Scarlet Brotherhood. Thanks to a scroll of alignment change and just the right set of circumstances, the Red Wizard faction has taken control of Pandrik and now has their sights set on Akanax. If they can take control of Akanax then they will have control of the lower half of Chessenta. This could eventually lead to them taking control of all of Chessenta.
What would happen if the red wizards were to either covertly or openly take control of Chessenta? |
| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 01:30:21
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Darden,
quote:
I think it would be too difficult for more than a small group of Red Wizards to remain cohesive long enough to facilitate conquest of Chessenta.
I disagree in part. Yes, the Red Wizards are not very efficacious in their campaigns/efforts, etc. However, lets take a look at the Salamander War of 1357 DR.
quote:
The Thayans proposed a massive military campaign against the coastal cities of Thasselen, Murbant, Escalant, Taskaunt, Lasdur, and Tilbrand. (Spellbound, p.5)
While your assessment is tacitly sensible, the history plays it out differently:
quote:
The Thayans were forced with withdraw from Lasdur and Taskaunt, and they controlled Tilbrand in name only but maintained dominion over all the other coastal cities. (Spellbound, p.6)
So, at worst the Thayan's ended up conquesting four of the six cities that they campaigned against, and at worst, they gained three of those cities when taking into account Tilbrand.
quote:
If it were a small group using other agents it could be possible...but even in such a group there would be power-plays that might eventually bring their efforts to ruin.
You are certainly correct here. The Salamander War was begun by Zulkir Sabass, [i]sort of/[i] Zulkir Aznar Thrul, and Tharchion Hagrid Tenslayer. In that small group, they were able to accomplish what they did, and that has held to current date (pre-Spellplague).
I use the Salamander War as an analogue for Chessenta as they took over many "free" states, and it was clearly, largely successful. Yes, there was clean up afterwards with the help of Zulkir Tam, but the gains far exceeded the need to have him involved.
quote:
HOWEVER, if they did indeed manage to pull off the total conquest of Chessenta (most likely through the control of actual Chessentans as puppets) they could forge a strong military dominance. Primarily because so many other nations rely on Chessentan Mercenaries (including Mulhorand).
Agreed.
quote:
I think a Thayan dominated Chessenta (I don't ever see it working if they tried outright conquest) would result in a complete destabilization of the area...which would either result in a rapidly climbing Thayan Empire or their total collapse as several nations counter-infiltrated Chessenta and brought ruin to Red Wizard plans.
Quite astute, and I agree with you again.
Best regards,
Just to note, I am a huge proponent of Thay, but I still find this very much a stretch. The cities they conquered are exceptionally small in the salamander war versus the ones they lost, so its not about the numbers of cities conquered. It also cost them a lot because they had lots of loss of life in the form of their own soldiers. Also, because you mentioned it, I should note that the Zulkirs involved were not the Zulkirs at the time. Sabass of Thay was a chief proponent of non-aggression. He was literally the leader of the researchers faction which opposed outside aggression. I don't think we actually were ever given the name of that Zulkir of conjuration. In theory, Sabass was elected as the replacement Zulkir when the prior one died as a result of his actions that caused the salamander war (and possibly his pushing of non-aggression helped, since this aggressive action turned on the country). Similarly, Aznar Thrul was also a replacement Zulkir. So, the salamander war cost the country two Zulkirs. Sabass then turns around and gets himself killed a few years later when Tam has him assassinated to put his own pet Zulkir into play (who he then kills a few years after that leading into the civil war).
EDIT: Correcting myself on that last sentence. Sabass is replaced by a new zulkir of conjuration (i.e. Nevron), not Druxus Rhym. Not sure if we ever got any kind of "play by play" on that replacement with Nevron. Need to look into that, but I could swear Sabass was assassinated by Tam, but guessing Tam didn't expect Nevron to become elected Zulkir. Guessing Druxus Rhym came about when Maligor's Zulkirship ended, as I don't recall anyone in between. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 00:52:14
Comparing a campaign against small cities immediately adjacent to their homeland to a prolonged campaign against militarily powerful city-states fails in the very beginning of the comparison...the two really aren't similar at all.
EDIT: also, I didn't mention the Salamander War at all...saying I am "correct" while using words I didn't state is kinda weird to me. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 00:18:16
Great Reader Darden,
quote:
I think it would be too difficult for more than a small group of Red Wizards to remain cohesive long enough to facilitate conquest of Chessenta.
I disagree in part. Yes, the Red Wizards are not very efficacious in their campaigns/efforts, etc. However, lets take a look at the Salamander War of 1357 DR.
quote:
The Thayans proposed a massive military campaign against the coastal cities of Thasselen, Murbant, Escalant, Taskaunt, Lasdur, and Tilbrand. (Spellbound, p.5)
While your assessment is tacitly sensible, the history plays it out differently:
quote:
The Thayans were forced with withdraw from Lasdur and Taskaunt, and they controlled Tilbrand in name only but maintained dominion over all the other coastal cities. (Spellbound, p.6)
So, at worst the Thayan's ended up conquesting four of the six cities that they campaigned against, and at worst, they gained three of those cities when taking into account Tilbrand.
quote:
If it were a small group using other agents it could be possible...but even in such a group there would be power-plays that might eventually bring their efforts to ruin.
You are certainly correct here. The Salamander War was begun by Zulkir Sabass, [i]sort of/[i] Zulkir Aznar Thrul, and Tharchion Hagrid Tenslayer. In that small group, they were able to accomplish what they did, and that has held to current date (pre-Spellplague).
I use the Salamander War as an analogue for Chessenta as they took over many "free" states, and it was clearly, largely successful. Yes, there was clean up afterwards with the help of Zulkir Tam, but the gains far exceeded the need to have him involved.
quote:
HOWEVER, if they did indeed manage to pull off the total conquest of Chessenta (most likely through the control of actual Chessentans as puppets) they could forge a strong military dominance. Primarily because so many other nations rely on Chessentan Mercenaries (including Mulhorand).
Agreed.
quote:
I think a Thayan dominated Chessenta (I don't ever see it working if they tried outright conquest) would result in a complete destabilization of the area...which would either result in a rapidly climbing Thayan Empire or their total collapse as several nations counter-infiltrated Chessenta and brought ruin to Red Wizard plans.
Quite astute, and I agree with you again.
Best regards,
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 00:00:38
I think it would be too difficult for more than a small group of Red Wizards to remain cohesive long enough to facilitate conquest of Chessenta.
If it were a small group using other agents it could be possible...but even in such a group there would be power-plays that might eventually bring their efforts to ruin.
HOWEVER, if they did indeed manage to pull off the total conquest of Chessenta (most likely through the control of actual Chessentans as puppets) they could forge a strong military dominance. Primarily because so many other nations rely on Chessentan Mercenaries (including Mulhorand).
I think a Thayan dominated Chessenta (I don't ever see it working if they tried outright conquest) would result in a complete destabilization of the area...which would either result in a rapidly climbing Thayan Empire or their total collapse as several nations counter-infiltrated Chessenta and brought ruin to Red Wizard plans. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 22:49:36
Great Reader sleyvas,
No dispute there. I was merely discussing the notion of how Thay would respond with 'x' city/location. You are certainly correct to point out that Learned Scribe Bragi did mention Pandrik. I only was discussing the current economic and political aspirations of Thay. :)
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 11:55:25
He's talking about Pandrik, a place that didn't exist in anything prior to 4e lore, because it took off when Akanax basically fell in 4e. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 21 Sep 2020 : 07:46:57
Learned Scribe Bragi,
I am going to answer this from a pre-Spellplague perspective.
The answer is they would continue implementing their plan of domination through economics. They would likely set up more locations to serve as waystations for magic item trading, and more importantly, selling.
Geopolitically, this would push them past Aglarond and would create a theater level overwatch by way of Thay's naval presence too. This could easily start getting nations like Turmish to start warming up more to Thay, as well as other nations. I would imagine the pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars would want to strike some bargain that would likely expand beyond whatever else is setup currently.
Huge win for Thay for sure!
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 16:04:23
quote:
Originally posted by Bragi
Context: in my campaign I'm currently running Ghosts of Saltmarsh set in Chessenta (the town of Pandrik). I have substituted the Red Wizards for the Scarlet Brotherhood. Thanks to a scroll of alignment change and just the right set of circumstances, the Red Wizard faction has taken control of Pandrik and now has their sights set on Akanax. If they can take control of Akanax then they will have control of the lower half of Chessenta. This could eventually lead to them taking control of all of Chessenta.
What would happen if the red wizards were to either covertly or openly take control of Chessenta?
More pertinent to this question, WHICH group of red wizards? The ones in the Wizard's Reach? The ones in Thay? That's the canon questions. I'd throw in my own though in "the ones returning from Abeir?" |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 30 Aug 2020 : 15:53:34
It would be another boring slaver nation in the Old Empires, actually (Mulhorand 2.0, but with mages instead of priests/demigods). If these are Szass Tam's Red Wizards, then the same plus undead.
Personally, I don't like the idea. |
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