| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 27 Jun 2016 : 20:08:41
Hello together,
I've borrowed the "Lost Empires of Faerun" and read about the Crown Wars. And I've got a question about Ilythiir's atrocity.
The elves from Ilythiir have according to the book "called stones from the sky" and "caused the earth to boil and scream" and it is described as making the Aryvandaar's atrocities look tame in comparison.
Just a section above it is the Dark Disaster described which turned Miyeritar into a wasteland for 10000+ years.
Just out of curiosity but does anybody know what Ilythiir has exactly done that makes the Dark Disaster "seem tame"?
Thank you for answering in advance |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 03 Jul 2016 : 11:19:36
quote:
Or old good elfwashing again.
Let us hope it stays "wiggle room". Though I fear it won't, given that WotC has returned to the "inherently evil/good" classification of creatures. |
| BrianDavion |
Posted - 03 Jul 2016 : 05:31:55
could ikt be when elves first arrived on Faerun (or even before) Corellian and Mystral made some sort of deal? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 03 Jul 2016 : 01:31:24
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
5th edition's "Sword Coast Adventure Guide" says in the High Moor section that there was no evidence ever found that supports the connection between Arvandaar and the Dark Disaster.
I have to borrow the book yet but it seems that WotC decided to give DMs a lot of "wiggle room".
Or old good elfwashing again. 
Anyway, from Cormanthyr:
quote:
Even the elves are unclear over the course of events that led to the catastrophe, though it
centered on conquered Miyeritar and the resistors to Aryvandaan rule therein. Some speak
of High Mage sympathizers within Miyeritar harnessing forbidden, blasphemous magics
against their elves, a taboo never before broken by elves, no matter how mad. Others point
to the gold High Mages of Aryvandaar, their political and familial connections with
the now-recognizably power-mad Vyshaantar clan, and their greater number and greater powers.
[...]
Ninety dark elf wizards and a trio of High Mages of Miyeritar chose to face it and fight,
though what became of them is lost, for they headed to the heart of the storm a month
after its origin, seeking the place of power where they could cast a counterspell against
the storm; like all else within the storm's envelope, there was naught left behind to find
but ash and ichor.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Elves are not native Faeruninans, why should they be a part of Weive when they weren't there when it was created?
I'm pretty sure that "magical creature born in (or naturalized to) Realmspace" is enough to count as part of the Weave. Maybe even simply "magical creature within Realmspace". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jul 2016 : 16:10:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
This is way off. High Magic has nothing to do with the Nether Scrolls. There are actually a couple places that talk about this. High Magic is basically the ultimate expression of the idea that elves are more directly connected to the Weave than others. They are a part of the magic that others use. Whenever they could, elves tried to hide/discourage the more abrupt views of magic that were based on the Nether Scrolls.
Just to focus on this some more.
Elves are not native Faeruninans, why should they be a part of Weive when they weren't there when it was created? They are even resistant to magical effects that says the opposite than attunement. Nether Scrolls are about magic and High Magic is magic. All those accounts are from elven books and elves are known to be biased heavily. We could also interpret their noble agenda as censorship and power grab. "We do it all for your protection" was misused so many times in our history that it rings false to me each time.
I would say that magic flows through elves more than other races. Since the Weave is just an interface for magic, elves are more in tune with it.
You could also say that there have been enough intermarriage with the local elves to have made it a racial thing.
Or it could be that the magical nature of elves is a universal constant, and they adapted and grew into the Weave. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 Jul 2016 : 08:41:42
Well this might not be for everyone as it uses a non standard cosmology that evolves over the millenia.
The material plane has 4 transitional planes that coexist with the material plane.
The ethereal plane that allows transition to the outer planes.
The astral plane that allows transition to the inner planes (and just about anywhere else as it is the gap between planes)
The faerie plane that acts as a buffer between the material plane and the positive energy plane.
The shadow plane that acts as a buffer between the material plane and the negative energy plane.
Now the tearfall disrupted the link between faerie and the shadow plane and the material plane. Thats why for ages the plane of faerie is not as connected to toril as it was in ages past. The shadow plane became only connected in places which is why the netherese thought it only a demiplane.
The death of mystryl disrupted things again and the faerie plane and shadow plane slowly drifted back into alignment.
According to sources the elves used high magic on faerie (although i beleive it was a novel so its a tertiary source for me) but if so that means high magic is due to the connection with faerie not the weave created by the nether scrolls. Thats why the elves are resistant to weave magic.
Just my thoughts and an idea i have not developed or refined yet. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 02 Jul 2016 : 08:22:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
This is way off. High Magic has nothing to do with the Nether Scrolls. There are actually a couple places that talk about this. High Magic is basically the ultimate expression of the idea that elves are more directly connected to the Weave than others. They are a part of the magic that others use. Whenever they could, elves tried to hide/discourage the more abrupt views of magic that were based on the Nether Scrolls.
Just to focus on this some more.
Elves are not native Faeruninans, why should they be a part of Weive when they weren't there when it was created? They are even resistant to magical effects that says the opposite than attunement. Nether Scrolls are about magic and High Magic is magic. All those accounts are from elven books and elves are known to be biased heavily. We could also interpret their noble agenda as censorship and power grab. "We do it all for your protection" was misused so many times in our history that it rings false to me each time. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 02 Jul 2016 : 01:16:44
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
As for the Nether Scrolls being the source of High Magic. I admit that idea seems a little against the lore of the Nether Scrolls (especially given George Krashos' recent articles developing their history further). However the Killing Storm spell also seems against the character of the elves even the proud gold elves.
Elves are about life and magic and everything positive and especially about elves. Developing a spell that uses magic to wipe out all life in an area for tens of thousands of years is pretty extreme even for an elf. Even if you had embraced the influence of Malkizid you would have to abandon everything that it means to be an elf in order to commit such an act.
The Nether Scrolls were left beneath the Hall of Mists sometime after -29500 DR and supposedly left undiscovered until the time of Netheril (when they were moved to a location that was easier to access).
We do know that in that time House Dlardrageth discovered the vault and built an armoury atop it (that was later sealed with High Magic after those of House Dlardrageth were imprisoned).
So why could the Vyshaan not have found the Baetith stronghold. Why could they not have discovered the Nether Scrolls. Why could they not have plumbed its secrets and been tainted. Why could they not have used those secrets to develop weapons that other elves would have found disgusting. Why could they not have developed the Killing Storm ritual as a direct result of these discovered secrets.
So if they did then how did the Nether Scrolls get back into the Hall of Mists. Maybe they didn't. Maybe Arthindol the Terraseer or another servant of Jergal had to go and retrieve them from some Vyshaan fortress and bring them back. Maybe after the Descent of the Drow the elves of Aryvandaar were horrified at what they had done or perhaps were afraid of what the Elven Court might do and so they tried to hide the scrolls back where they found them lest they be judged as tainted by dark magic like the drow.
Just an idea.
Thankfully the realms is so filled with conflicting accounts and blank spaces that one can come up with just about any idea and tie it into existing lore nicely with little effort.
I see Nether Scrolls only as well known artefact that holds core knowledges of Sarrukh's magic research (much like imaskarena). There should have been much more that never seen the light officialy. Those elves have been sitting on this for milenia and who knows what they did or didn't found but I am pretty sure they should have found at least some of it. Halls of Mist is only one known example that is still standing. Also I find strange how much elves held to that "forbidden knowledge" and tried really hard to "protect" good folks from reading it...
I also find curious how our Mage was offended by thought that virtuous elves might have not invented High Magic themselves :-) Each time somebody denies a subject so definitely it sparks my interest as I may have found something interesting. So please Masked Mage - try to think about it. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 21:59:10
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I can find no statement of fact in Elves of Evermeet or Cormanthyr which states that the ancient elves worshipped the Seldarine or that they even existed.
Demihuman Deities has a number of mythologies regarding the origin of elves and the worship of the Seldarine but myths and legends are just that and not a statement of fact.
Cormanthyr speaks of priests of the Seldarine, of asking the drow to be cast out of Corellon's favor, and other stuff like that. So, it appears that, while they might have not been gods, they were more or less seen as such by the elves. Demihuman Deities includes their history--and that of the Dark Seldarine--but it doesn't seem to contradict Cormanthyr or other sources.
quote:
GHoTR is where I got the quote of the Seldarine being fey lords but the mythology in Demihuman Deities already hints at that origin. The realms has evolved much since 2e came about and so should the understanding of the faiths. The Faerie realm is not the same as the material plane but without humans. It is a fey realm filled with fey creatures which at one point in time included elves (and possibly orcs). Organised worship or organisation in any form is not a recognised characteristic of fey creatures in many mythologies. They are whimsical ofttimes alien in their actions and motivations.
Not all deities required organized worship, and rigid hierarchy, tho. In any case, fey lords or deities, it seems that they were worshiped by the elves, and could grant them spells.
quote:
The novels may well depict something different. They may not I haven't read them (and don't intend to as the novels are another's story and as a DM I want to tell my own or help the players to tell theirs).
Evermeet: Island of Elves expands on what it is said in Demihuman Deities, and adds flavor and details to it. It doesn't blow the world, or disregard previous lore, like other novels did.
But, ofc, as you say, it's all open to interpretation, and this is by no means meant as looking down on your own creative interpretation of the events. I prefer the Seldarine to start out as archfey myself (some of them still are, in my FR), although I don't like to portray supposedly good deities as manipulative and uncaring of their people. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 21:37:38
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Wow, my opinion of the Seldarine hit a new low point. I remembered the page only because it said that Ilythiir was founded on land gained through negotiations and not like Aryvandaar, Miyeritar, etc on land taken as spoils of war or cleared after war from the dragons (not that dragons were particularly kind). Still compromising doesn't seem to be their strength.
On a different note, this is also from the wiki but wasn't Ghaunadaur "found" only a bit earlier than Evermeet's creation? If you want, I can try to find the page again.
Well, to be fair to the elves, as soon as they (who were refugees back then) ''landed'' on Toril, they were attacked by chromatic dragons (altough the dracorage mythal was indeed a nasty move. But hey, elven hisotry is full of those). Idk if Ilythiir had the luck of dealing with metallic ones.
Btw, IIRC, Miyeritar was founded by (mostly) green and dark elves who were fleeing from Aryvandaar, and that was much later than many other elven kingdoms.
Ghaunadaur's faith wasn't big in Ilythiir, but in ''Evermeet'', he is worshiped by Ka'Narlist when Sharlario meets him, and he was already and old acquaintance of the Seldarine, and of Lolth, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The Wiki says that his worship started around the beginning the first flowering (quoting LEoF), so it's not off. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 21:33:53
Well I can find no statement of fact in Elves of Evermeet or Cormanthyr which states that the ancient elves worshipped the Seldarine or that they even existed.
Demihuman Deities has a number of mythologies regarding the origin of elves and the worship of the Seldarine but myths and legends are just that and not a statement of fact.
GHoTR is where I got the quote of the Seldarine being fey lords but the mythology in Demihuman Deities already hints at that origin. The realms has evolved much since 2e came about and so should the understanding of the faiths. The Faerie realm is not the same as the material plane but without humans. It is a fey realm filled with fey creatures which at one point in time included elves (and possibly orcs). Organised worship or organisation in any form is not a recognised characteristic of fey creatures in many mythologies. They are whimsical ofttimes alien in their actions and motivations.
I'm not sure you can even have a god on the Faerie Plane (otherwise would the Seelie and Unseelie court not be filled with gods instead of fey lords). Belief is for mortals with free will and thus is for those of the material plane.
The novels may well depict something different. They may not I haven't read them (and don't intend to as the novels are another's story and as a DM I want to tell my own or help the players to tell theirs). Others may have interpreted things differently to me and that's fine. But the sourcebooks contradict each other and therefore I can be both right and wrong at the same time. I think I'm right and others may think I'm wrong. I personally prefer things to make more sense and have less super trolls solving and causing all the problems on Toril. So for me the Seldarine start out as fey lords and the early elves on Toril have a wide variety of minor regional deities that they worship. For me the Seldarine become gods with the descent of the drow. The price for their help in transforming the illythiiri is that the elves worship them and no others (obviously there are dissenters but the elves of the Elven Court and those they rescue from the Vyshaan soon embrace the new order). But then I like my deities to be selfish and manipulative..
As for the Nether Scrolls being the source of High Magic. I admit that idea seems a little against the lore of the Nether Scrolls (especially given George Krashos' recent articles developing their history further). However the Killing Storm spell also seems against the character of the elves even the proud gold elves.
Elves are about life and magic and everything positive and especially about elves. Developing a spell that uses magic to wipe out all life in an area for tens of thousands of years is pretty extreme even for an elf. Even if you had embraced the influence of Malkizid you would have to abandon everything that it means to be an elf in order to commit such an act.
The Nether Scrolls were left beneath the Hall of Mists sometime after -29500 DR and supposedly left undiscovered until the time of Netheril (when they were moved to a location that was easier to access).
We do know that in that time House Dlardrageth discovered the vault and built an armoury atop it (that was later sealed with High Magic after those of House Dlardrageth were imprisoned).
So why could the Vyshaan not have found the Baetith stronghold. Why could they not have discovered the Nether Scrolls. Why could they not have plumbed its secrets and been tainted. Why could they not have used those secrets to develop weapons that other elves would have found disgusting. Why could they not have developed the Killing Storm ritual as a direct result of these discovered secrets.
So if they did then how did the Nether Scrolls get back into the Hall of Mists. Maybe they didn't. Maybe Arthindol the Terraseer or another servant of Jergal had to go and retrieve them from some Vyshaan fortress and bring them back. Maybe after the Descent of the Drow the elves of Aryvandaar were horrified at what they had done or perhaps were afraid of what the Elven Court might do and so they tried to hide the scrolls back where they found them lest they be judged as tainted by dark magic like the drow.
Just an idea.
Thankfully the realms is so filled with conflicting accounts and blank spaces that one can come up with just about any idea and tie it into existing lore nicely with little effort. |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 21:20:28
Wow, my opinion of the Seldarine hit a new low point. I remembered the page only because it said that Ilythiir was founded on land gained through negotiations and not like Aryvandaar, Miyeritar, etc on land taken as spoils of war or cleared after war from the dragons (not that dragons were particularly kind). Still compromising doesn't seem to be their strength.
On a different note, this is also from the wiki but wasn't Ghaunadaur "found" only a bit earlier than Evermeet's creation? If you want, I can try to find the page again. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 20:26:17
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Apparently, the first elves who came to Toril did follow Faerie gods and not the Seldarine, at least according to the wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/-27000_DR
The Grand History of the Realms is quoted. I don't have access to that book, so I can't confirm whether it's really written there, though.
That refers to the elves (green and dark) who were already on Toril, not those who came from Tintageer (they brought the worship of the Seldarine to Toril).
I also remember, from Evermeet: Island of Elves, and from Demihuman Deities, that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were wandering on Toril, and also had dark elven followers, by the time when the first elves from Tintageer found Toril. In fact, when in that book Sharlario Moonflower travels to the south, not long after the opening of the portal from Tintageer to Faerun, he finds that the dark elves there worship Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur. He is also met by Eilistraee, who appears to him during his travel. |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 20:15:04
Apparently, the first elves who came to Toril did follow Faerie gods and not the Seldarine, at least according to the wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/-27000_DR
The Grand History of the Realms is quoted. I don't have access to that book, so I can't confirm whether it's really written there, though. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 17:23:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Another thought about Crown Wars era is that it seems to me that all elven High Magic was created from Sarrukh's Nether Scrolls. It is written that southern Ilithiri had great culture but have not mastered High magic (or at least Drow somehow lost it). Also it is written that Myeritar was greatest place for High magic learning and that Vyshaan lords coveted this knowledge. If you look at that Myeritar was closest to former center of magic research of sarrukh (Isstofil) it make sense to those discoveries. Also it seems they were hiding this source and proclaming they mastered it themselves. After Arthindol points Netheries towards this repository elves kept silent and tried to steal them back (later depositing the complete set of scrolls into Myth Drannor school of magic). It seems logical to me that Vyshans also found some remnants of this (hall of mists) and presumed the source under Myeritar lands. After they denied it's existance Vyshans launched attacks under influence of their demonic allies. As they were already corrupted I see no reason they wouldn't use full uncontrolled power to defeat their enemy (Dark Disaster). It might also be accident by either side from releasing some sarrukh experiment or failed ritual (possibly even side effect of their transformative magic into sharn).
This is way off. High Magic has nothing to do with the Nether Scrolls. There are actually a couple places that talk about this. High Magic is basically the ultimate expression of the idea that elves are more directly connected to the Weave than others. They are a part of the magic that others use. Whenever they could, elves tried to hide/discourage the more abrupt views of magic that were based on the Nether Scrolls.
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 17:19:44
I can't think of any source from FR that has the Seldarine as anything other than Gods...
This dates from 1st edition, in the Old Gray Box (that's 1987). It is possible Ed published some articles on the Seldarine in Dragon before that, but I'm not sure.
Later, 2nd Edition gave us Monster Mythology and the Complete Book of Elves in 1992 then Elves of Evermeet 2 years later which gave us more information on the Seldarine. Finally, Demihuman Deities in 1998 was a motherload of Seldarine information.
Is it possible you are crossing between the different settings? Elves in Dragonlance possibly?
The only other thing I can think of is that one or two novels mention that the specific tribe in the story have different ethos. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 14:16:50
Dazzler, the sources I was pulling from are 2e. Primarily they're the Cormanthyr box set and the Sea of Fallen Stars book. Both describe the destruction of the southern realms, and Cormanthyr, as aptly quoted above, introduces the Killing Storm but does not give any firm answer in what caused it.
I'm glad to hear that 5e has returned to 2e's tradition of avoiding the direct, hard-and-fast answers that afflicted 3e.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Most of the above is probably events from novels (which i dont read so cant comment on), or could be detailed in a 4e or 5e sourcebook (which again i dont read).
Ive never heard of the stuff about the killing storm having unknown origins, nor about the southern forests being completely annihilated by rings of fire with all inhabitants destroyed. Both of those are contradicted by earlier sourcebooks (which i prefer).
Similarly the earlier sourcebooks state that until the descent the seldarine were faerie lords (not gods) and it is implied that they were largely unknown or ignored by the elves (something it would seem that is contradicted elsewhere in novels and later sources).
I guess you have to pick and choose which sources you favour. I personally hate the god nonsense so i ignore all novels and nything after 3e and some of the later 3e developments that involve gods. If you like the adolescent super beings then choose the novels and later sourcebooks.
|
| Wrigley |
Posted - 01 Jul 2016 : 12:18:22
In my Realms Crown Wars were mirroring the divine strugle for power between Seldarine (or the other way around for Dazzelerdal :-)). First there was a battle between Corellion and his brother Gruumash, leader of the Green elves. He lost due to Corellion's backing of Moon and Dark elves - this was confirmed by taking Araushnee as his wife. He was deformed and crippled then banished from Arvandor. Most of his elves were corrupted with him and are now what we call goblins. Later Araushnee tried to murder her husband with her allies but was thwarted by Moon elven godesses who saved Corellion. She was then also corrupted and banished and her elves were made into drows (smaller, hate sun and evil - similar to goblins).
Gold elves were the same as their god - arrogant supremacist who continuously make efforts to rule all others. It first have shown with Vyshaan lords and continues until fall of Myth Drannor due to their actions. Later they created Eldereth Veluuthra to contiue their fight with lesser beings. Their own gods are logicaly viewed as good as they tend for their own.
Another thought about Crown Wars era is that it seems to me that all elven High Magic was created from Sarrukh's Nether Scrolls. It is written that southern Ilithiri had great culture but have not mastered High magic (or at least Drow somehow lost it). Also it is written that Myeritar was greatest place for High magic learning and that Vyshaan lords coveted this knowledge. If you look at that Myeritar was closest to former center of magic research of sarrukh (Isstofil) it make sense to those discoveries. Also it seems they were hiding this source and proclaming they mastered it themselves. After Arthindol points Netheries towards this repository elves kept silent and tried to steal them back (later depositing the complete set of scrolls into Myth Drannor school of magic). It seems logical to me that Vyshans also found some remnants of this (hall of mists) and presumed the source under Myeritar lands. After they denied it's existance Vyshans launched attacks under influence of their demonic allies. As they were already corrupted I see no reason they wouldn't use full uncontrolled power to defeat their enemy (Dark Disaster). It might also be accident by either side from releasing some sarrukh experiment or failed ritual (possibly even side effect of their transformative magic into sharn). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 16:00:18
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Most of the above is probably events from novels (which i dont read so cant comment on), or could be detailed in a 4e or 5e sourcebook (which again i dont read).
Ive never heard of the stuff about the killing storm having unknown origins, nor about the southern forests being completely annihilated by rings of fire with all inhabitants destroyed. Both of those are contradicted by earlier sourcebooks (which i prefer).
Similarly the earlier sourcebooks state that until the descent the seldarine were faerie lords (not gods) and it is implied that they were largely unknown or ignored by the elves (something it would seem that is contradicted elsewhere in novels and later sources).
I guess you have to pick and choose which sources you favour. I personally hate the god nonsense so i ignore all novels and nything after 3e and some of the later 3e developments that involve gods. If you like the adolescent super beings then choose the novels and later sourcebooks.
The story of the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine as deities dates back to 2e, with the various deities books and Elaine's Evermeet,
The other info come from Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves (a 2e sourcebook) and Lost Empires of Faerun. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 13:00:05
Yes, the exact line he's talking about reads:
"The high mages of Aryvandaar are blamed for the destruction, although no proof was ever produced." |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 10:24:01
Thank you for the reply,
I talked about this with a friend in university and according to him 5th edition's "Sword Coast Adventure Guide" says in the High Moor section that there was no evidence ever found that supports the connection between Arvandaar and the Dark Disaster.
I have to borrow the book yet but it seems that WotC decided to give DMs a lot of "wiggle room".
Again thank you for the reply |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 07:31:14
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
About Aryvandaar's guilt regarding the Dark Disaster.
The Lost Empires of Faerun has clearly said that it was Aryvandaar's fault, precisely Vyhaantar High Mages' (p.55 of said book).
Was it retconned at sometime?
No - As I said, in some later sources the confusion and mystery was removed. While this scenario seems plausible, unfortunately it makes zero sense for this to be historical fact, known to elves everywhere because if it did then why would it take a thousand years (that's 3 or four elven generations) to figure out the Vyshaan were the problem.
One of the biggest problems I had with the 3rd edition source books was that they took earlier information from 1st & 2nd ed, which left a lot of wiggle room to decide what was and was not true, and chose one possibility and presented it as fact. This was done all over the place, for better or worse.
Still, when you go back to the very beginning, and to the idea that Toril is another world existing concurrent with our own and that Elminster and 1 or two others have relayed information about it to Ed of the Greenwood, then any and all such "THIS IS FACT" statements can easily be explained away as I suggested. It makes literally ALL lore we have about the realms 2nd or 3rd hand information, which means discrepancies and interpretations are the result of those passing on information.
Think about our own history. There are no shortage of competing interpretations on any number of events, but that does not stop one historian or another from writing a thesis or publishing a book that presents their interpretation as hard fact. There is also no shortage of the poorly informed who learn all they known about history from the movies. I think of the 3rd edition books as being written by these people, who tell us exactly what they think happened in the story they heard or saw but have only heard one interpretation. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 06:43:47
Most of the above is probably events from novels (which i dont read so cant comment on), or could be detailed in a 4e or 5e sourcebook (which again i dont read).
Ive never heard of the stuff about the killing storm having unknown origins, nor about the southern forests being completely annihilated by rings of fire with all inhabitants destroyed. Both of those are contradicted by earlier sourcebooks (which i prefer).
Similarly the earlier sourcebooks state that until the descent the seldarine were faerie lords (not gods) and it is implied that they were largely unknown or ignored by the elves (something it would seem that is contradicted elsewhere in novels and later sources).
I guess you have to pick and choose which sources you favour. I personally hate the god nonsense so i ignore all novels and nything after 3e and some of the later 3e developments that involve gods. If you like the adolescent super beings then choose the novels and later sourcebooks. |
| sw1989 |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 06:22:36
About Aryvandaar's guilt regarding the Dark Disaster.
The Lost Empires of Faerun has clearly said that it was Aryvandaar's fault, precisely Vyhaantar High Mages' (p.55 of said book).
Was it retconned at sometime?
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 05:48:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
First of all, by making it impossible to openly worship her, making it much harder to embrace her faith, and removing all those who started the whole thing (like the Sethomir, much like it happened for the Vyshaan). Organizing strict controls to eradicate the cult (at least in the first years after the war), while also using divination magic for that purpose (reading people's thought, zones of truth, scrying, and so on), would definitely go a long way. If they have magic to sunder lands and curse whole races, they also have magic to do trivial stuff like that. It would more or less be the same as how it works in RL with crimes, except with many more tools.
At worst this would have prevented Lolth's faith from becoming dominant, and would have reduced it to an underground cult. Abandoning a whole people only made things worse anyway (and the ''it's easier to recognized potential enemies'' doesn't really make sense either, since they can use magical disguise, and since they were already identifiable, being their own subrace).
Outright banning religion does not work. You can tear down every church and outlaw the very mention of her, and her faithful are still going to hold on to their faith and find others to share it with.
There are plenty of real-world examples of attempts to ban religion, and every example shows that it can't be done.
The last I checked, there is no divination magic keyed to finding out who a person worships -- and even if there was, Lolth could simply grant spells to thwart it. If Vhaeraun can have traitor-priestesses, surely Lolth can trump magic cast by mortals. We already have magic items made by mortal hands that can defeat divination magics.
And unless you're planning on doing detailed, frequent, and highly thorough mind reads on every single citizen (including every person doing the mind reads), people are still going to slip thru the cracks -- and that's again presuming Lolth doesn't give them magic to thwart those tactics. Furthermore, nothing's going to piss off innocent people more than having their very thoughts routinely violated -- this tactic could actually drive people to Lolth or other evil powers.
Your tactics would be more likely to strengthen Lolthite worship, not diminish it.
Yes, you have a point. Thinking about it, what I proposed wouldn't really work (although, banning open worship would surely pose an obstacle to the diffusion of this religion. It would be more of a cult. Taking down all those nobles who had dealt with Wendonai and had become tainted would have aso helped. Normal investigations, interrogations of suspects in zones of truth would also be still usable).
But then, the banishment definitely wasn't a solution, and it provided Lolth with immense influnce over the drow. Another way could have been to show to the general population of Ilythiir (who are not innately evil, and were not tainted yet) that the elves were not their enemies, helping the refugees of Miyeritar, and showing mercy to the defeated. Just anything but the banishment, because that is yet another atrocity of the Crown Wars.
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| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 05:27:33
There are several things that seem missing in this discussion, I think largely because of re-wordings in subsequent publications over the years that have taken all the mystery and confusion out of the Dark Disaster. I suggest you look to the history in the Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves book and adhere to its description of the Crown Wars, writing off all later, more concrete accounts to the opinion of the writer. (Remember that, in theory, all of our knowledge of Toril comes to us second hand, by word of mouth and so is never the crystal clear truth. Perspective of the story teller and writer colors it all). According to that source:
"Even the elves are unclear over the course of events that led to the catastrophe, though it centered on conquered Miyeritar and the resistors to Aryvandaan rule therein. Some speak of High Mage sympathizers within Miyeritar harnessing forbidden, blasphemous magics against their elves, a taboo never before broken by elves, no matter how mad. Others point to the gold High Mages of Aryvandaar, their political and familial connections with the now-recognizably power-mad Vyshaantar clan, and their greater number and greater powers. Regardless of which elves did what to whom, the killing storms known by elves as the Dark Disaster were summoned over Miyeritar 1,000 years after the first Vyshaan noble walked among its wooded glades as a conqueror."
So basically, no one really knows for sure who caused the killing storms. Everyone knew about the repeated war crimes of the Ilythiiri and their "non-elven" tactics which you discussed earlier. Even after the fourth Crown War and the creation of the Elven Court, it took 1000 years to decide that the Vyshaan were responsible for the problems that caused the wars. I personally think, given what we know about the Ilythiiri, that they very well could have created the killing storms just so they could justify any retaliation they desired. It seems far to clumsy an assault for the Vyshaan, who were first and foremost evil manipulators guided by Malkazid who acted for the most part in secrecy.
As for the Descent of the Drow, again it is described without certainty:
"How the wars concluded is a vague mystery to all but a few, though many believe High Magic and priests of all the Seldarine became involved in this schism. All that needs be known is that no dark elf has easily walked the sunlit lands of Faerun for more than eleven millennia."
I think any source that claims to know exactly what occurred in the distant past is simply constructing a coherent story that fits their interpretation of the Crown Wars. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jun 2016 : 05:27:19
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
First of all, by making it impossible to openly worship her, making it much harder to embrace her faith, and removing all those who started the whole thing (like the Sethomir, much like it happened for the Vyshaan). Organizing strict controls to eradicate the cult (at least in the first years after the war), while also using divination magic for that purpose (reading people's thought, zones of truth, scrying, and so on), would definitely go a long way. If they have magic to sunder lands and curse whole races, they also have magic to do trivial stuff like that. It would more or less be the same as how it works in RL with crimes, except with many more tools.
At worst this would have prevented Lolth's faith from becoming dominant, and would have reduced it to an underground cult. Abandoning a whole people only made things worse anyway (and the ''it's easier to recognized potential enemies'' doesn't really make sense either, since they can use magical disguise, and since they were already identifiable, being their own subrace).
Outright banning religion does not work. You can tear down every church and outlaw the very mention of her, and her faithful are still going to hold on to their faith and find others to share it with.
There are plenty of real-world examples of attempts to ban religion, and every example shows that it can't be done.
The last I checked, there is no divination magic keyed to finding out who a person worships -- and even if there was, Lolth could simply grant spells to thwart it. If Vhaeraun can have traitor-priestesses, surely Lolth can trump magic cast by mortals. We already have magic items made by mortal hands that can defeat divination magics.
And unless you're planning on doing detailed, frequent, and highly thorough mind reads on every single citizen (including every person doing the mind reads), people are still going to slip thru the cracks -- and that's again presuming Lolth doesn't give them magic to thwart those tactics. Furthermore, nothing's going to piss off innocent people more than having their very thoughts routinely violated -- this tactic could actually drive people to Lolth or other evil powers.
Your tactics would be more likely to strengthen Lolthite worship, not diminish it. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 20:16:14
First of all, by making it impossible to openly worship her, making it much harder to embrace her faith, and removing all those who started the whole thing (like the Sethomir, much like it happened for the Vyshaan). Organizing strict controls to eradicate the cult (at least in the first years after the war), while also using divination magic for that purpose (reading people's thought, zones of truth, scrying, and so on), would definitely go a long way. If they have magic to sunder lands and curse whole races, they also have magic to do trivial stuff like that. It would more or less be the same as how it works in RL with crimes, except with many more tools.
At worst this would have prevented Lolth's faith from becoming dominant, and would have reduced it to an underground cult. Abandoning a whole people only made things worse anyway (and the ''it's easier to recognized potential enemies'' doesn't really make sense either, since they can use magical disguise, and since they were already identifiable, being their own subrace). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 20:03:42
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
And when--as victors--the rest of the elves could have outlawed and eradicated the cult of Lolth from Ilythiir, instead of empowering it and pushing the dark elves between Lolth's arms, by blindly cursing and shunning *all* of them.
Yes, they would have identified all the Lolthites by the black tabards they always wore, emblazoned with a big L on the front and an upthrust middle finger on the back. Followers of Lolth always dress like that.
Seriously, how would they find and identify Lolth worshippers? How would they outlaw a person's religion? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 19:57:39
It isn't, especially when the cult wasn't even the main religion (Vhaeraun was the main deity of Ilythiir, and other gods were worshiped too, including Eilistraee), and your random citizen probably wasn't evil/corrupted, or what you have (Lolth's influence only became that pervasive in the lives of her followers after the Descent). And when--as victors--the rest of the elves could have outlawed and eradicated the cult of Lolth from Ilythiir, instead of empowering it and pushing the dark elves between Lolth's arms, by blindly cursing and shunning *all* of them. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 29 Jun 2016 : 18:30:10
Which is a very good reason if you see Lolth's rule over the drow in all books, no? |
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