| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 10:08:36
I am wondering how shar is able to devour whole worlds through her shadowstorm besides gods are not being allowed to directly interfer in the material plane. I know there are a lot of exceptions where they do, but this seems like a very huge one to me.
Also why don't the other gods stop here form killing all thei followers directly?
What do you think? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 12:41:03
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Shar needs to devour herself at this point. Lol just kidding...I don't want any more deities to die.
That's some disturbing image... |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 23 Aug 2014 : 12:20:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the Realms, deities cannot interfere directly. Who is to say this rule is common to all spheres?
Though I do wonder why Shar would pay attention to anything outside of Realmspace... She was born there, and if she nukes it, she can dwindle away in peace like she wants. Spreading out to other worlds just means more work.
Does she want to dwindle away? Why is this ? |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 11:24:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Shades had a dozen powerful wizards, and that's about all we saw for them, other than nameless grunts.
The newer Drizzt novels mention some other powerfull warlocks and indicate a strong shadovar presence in the shadowfell with diffrent conclaves ruled by those warlocks who themselves are ruled by the lords of Netheril.
So its very possible that they have something like a nation back in the shadowfell and thus far more resources then only their flying city(ies)
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
And, uh, Rivalen happens to be both a Chosen of Shar and a demipower exarch in his own right.
After rivalen became a demipower he didn't care much about shades goals anymore though. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 18:21:10
Shar needs to devour herself at this point. Lol just kidding...I don't want any more deities to die. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 17:44:05
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The power of the Shade was simply a thing of "DM fiat", they had to be super powerful and dominate everyone else despite logic or consequences. So a city of 25000 people (500 shades total) with 3000 soldiers (200 shades) and 1000 wizards (250 shades) [numbers from 3e Lords of Darkness pages 82-85] was able to militarly challenge nations all across the Heartlands, ancient dracoliches bowed their heads just because (Malygris), the phaerimms turned into wussies (hunted for sport ...), Bane forgot about defending his Chosen and his biggest power base in Faerun and yet they weren't able to obliterate a one-hit wonder like Daelegoth Orndeir (Power of Faerun, page 61, Khytorn 19 entry, 3 princes against Daelegoth's 111 hp ...).
We can start to argue details, like the fact shadovar soldiers are fig1/sor1 with armors, giving them bab +1 and a nice 25% spellcasting failure chance, making them as effective as common militia with ... lo and behold ... a 75% chance to throw a 1d4+1 magic missile ... scary as hell!
We can say the princes and Telamont did all the heavy lifting, buzzing left and right with their mighty spells, and pretend no one would jump on them as soon as they depleted their resources (like the Chosens of Mystra, the Harpers, the Zhents, the Red Wizards, Iolaum, Larloch, Aumvor, Oreme's reigning king, servants of one of the bazillion good deities that just sit there and do nothing for 90% of the modern canon history of Faerun, ecc...).
But that's it, we have to pretend all the power groups of Faerun just forgot to act, we have to pretend that Shades were more efficient, orderly and regimented than Banites, we have to pretend Shar suddendly was the only deity meddling in Faerun affairs with the rest of the pantheon taking an extended vacation, we have to pretend an awful lot of things.
Stated much better than I could do. I would +1 this, if I could.  |
| Demzer |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 14:10:41
The power of the Shade was simply a thing of "DM fiat", they had to be super powerful and dominate everyone else despite logic or consequences. So a city of 25000 people (500 shades total) with 3000 soldiers (200 shades) and 1000 wizards (250 shades) [numbers from 3e Lords of Darkness pages 82-85] was able to militarly challenge nations all across the Heartlands, ancient dracoliches bowed their heads just because (Malygris), the phaerimms turned into wussies (hunted for sport ...), Bane forgot about defending his Chosen and his biggest power base in Faerun and yet they weren't able to obliterate a one-hit wonder like Daelegoth Orndeir (Power of Faerun, page 61, Khytorn 19 entry, 3 princes against Daelegoth's 111 hp ...).
We can start to argue details, like the fact shadovar soldiers are fig1/sor1 with armors, giving them bab +1 and a nice 25% spellcasting failure chance, making them as effective as common militia with ... lo and behold ... a 75% chance to throw a 1d4+1 magic missile ... scary as hell!
We can say the princes and Telamont did all the heavy lifting, buzzing left and right with their mighty spells, and pretend no one would jump on them as soon as they depleted their resources (like the Chosens of Mystra, the Harpers, the Zhents, the Red Wizards, Iolaum, Larloch, Aumvor, Oreme's reigning king, servants of one of the bazillion good deities that just sit there and do nothing for 90% of the modern canon history of Faerun, ecc...).
But that's it, we have to pretend all the power groups of Faerun just forgot to act, we have to pretend that Shades were more efficient, orderly and regimented than Banites, we have to pretend Shar suddendly was the only deity meddling in Faerun affairs with the rest of the pantheon taking an extended vacation, we have to pretend an awful lot of things. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 01:09:01
And now I have an image of Shar with Sméagol and Gollum persona s....  |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 01:07:09
Wooly... Why would Shar destroy other worlds....
She's trapped in the Lucifer's Paradox.
The paradox is this: The Devil works best when no one believes in him, since they also then not believe in God, which allows him to tempt people easier. But the Devil's sin is Pride, the excess undeserved desire for attention. People need to know he exist to make him happy.
So Shar wants to destroy everything including herself, but to have the power to do this she need a large number of worshipers. If only temporarily. So she needs more and more of them, which could lead to expanding onto another world for their power, or at least the ideas and schemes to destroy everything.
But once worshiped on this new world, she has to destroy it to best prevent not only her worship to continue but erase the potential of anyone resurrecting her or worshiping her as a dead god.
It's like you want something but don't want it, you hate something but love it, do something but don't, to have your cake and eat it too. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 23:32:37
The Shadovar have their dozen Princes Shade, yes, all nicely powerful wizards. But also Telamont, once a leading arcanist in ancient Netheril. And some active mythallars, along with the floating city-fortress platforms they power. And, probably, a ton of old Netherese quasimagical toys, 10th-11th level magics, and more. This, I think, vastly exceeds the arcane resources of many Manshoons and their minions.
And, uh, Rivalen happens to be both a Chosen of Shar and a demipower exarch in his own right. Shar aint really a particularly forgiving goddess, true. But she cant possibly be worse than insane Cyric, worshipped by Semmemon. All other things considered equal, Shar is a Greater Power, Cyric is not, her divine rank trumps him down.
Yes the Black Network has long-reaching and deeply established tentacles of power, countless little Zhentilar cells working towards scattered evil goals, with or without any knowledge of each other, sometimes with astonishing effectiveness. But they have also accumulated many enemies, such as Elminster and Cormyrs War Wizards, and even those annoying Harpers, who oppose their efforts at every turn.
The Shadovar, in comparison, have a rigidly defined power hierarchy, a unified purpose, and the ability to concentrate their power onto (or against) specific goals. They have almost entirely subverted Sembia, which the Zhents could never do. They have cowed Cormyr (Cormites might talk big, and be able to barely keep the Shadovar from interfering in Cormyrs affairs, but I havent seen them accomplish anything else which thwarts the Shadovar), which is again something the Zhents could never do.
I think that if the Zhentarim could have, for example, levelled Sembias capital city with a kraken attack, they would have done it long ago. Instead, they could barely manage to seize little Tilverton from Cormyr, and were sucked into a long war of attrition while Tilverton switched sides over and over again.
Shadover > Zhentilar, no contest. In no small part because Shar > Cyric. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 18:29:45
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Well to be fair the main shade antagonists where far more powerfull then those of other groups like the zhents for example.
The Shades had a dozen powerful wizards, and that's about all we saw for them, other than nameless grunts. The Zhents and many other groups had a lot of arcane firepower, and more people, and more established networks of agents and plots. And yet somehow, Shade was the only power group that accomplished anything -- without the numbers or support. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 17:09:25
Well to be fair the main shade antagonists where far more powerfull then those of other groups like the zhents for example.
But I agree this doesn't explain why the others became inactive. The only way you could try to explain it is that we simply didn't hear anything from them but theystill went on with business as usual... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 16:11:24
There's still only so much that one city can do. Zhentil Keep had the backing of Bane -- I didn't see them conquer other nations, destroy enemy cities, and threaten half the continent. Silverymoon was ruled by a Chosen of Mystra and was the favored city of Lurue, and they couldn't defeat Obould with a bunch of other cities helping.
And none of that addresses why all the other groups in the Realms suddenly became utterly inactive. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 13:37:28
Guys, when wondering how Shade accomplished so much so quickly, I would keep in mind Ed's revelation in The Herald.
SPOILERS
Not only did Shade have the full backing of Shar (because she thought they would bring about the Shadowstorm), but Larloch was secretly pulling the strings all along, unbeknownst even to Shar. Just like Shar, Larloch was using the Shadovar for his own ends. He wanted to have them do the heavy lifting, so he could then absorb the wards of Candlekeep, and use that power to absorb the remnants of the Weave itself. So Shade had all the resources of one of Toril's most powerful gods + one of Toril's most powerful mortals. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Aug 2014 : 01:38:39
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I have to disagree with you on that one Wooly. Its not that Shade became the only villains , it would be more accurate to say that they became the most serious threat. I mean lets be honest here the likes of the Knights of the Shield or the Zhentariam were never going to conquer the realms or pose any sort of serious threat to its long term survival. At the most they were regional powers, Shade however was a superpower and what is more heroic than a tale of adventurers battling against unfathomable odds and still succeeding.
Perhaps it was overused a little but I feel the concept was sound and needed more time to be properly implemented. Also it helped to provide a counterweight to Cormyr and the elves. Of course now Cormanthor and Shade have both been blown up so we will never know.
They wiped out Zhentil Keep, they took over Sembia, they were a threat just about everywhere... They even found the Lost Vale, something a Banelich flying directly overhead couldn't do when he knew it was right there...
All this from what was originally one city. If this was so easy to do, why didn't the Zhents do this? They were also one city, but with an established presence and network of agents across the continent. The Shades literally came out of nowhere and kicked the crap out of just about everyone that looked at them.
The Realms does not need a superpower, not for good or evil. Having one nation that is a superpower makes it one-dimensional -- it was kinda like Krynn, where all evil in the setting was based around Takhisis, and you couldn't be a good guy without acting against her. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Aug 2014 : 23:36:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Who should take the lead in 5e?
No one should take the lead.
Part of my opposition to Shar and Shade was that in prior editions, we had priests of evil deities, we had the Cult of the Dragon, we had the Knights of the Shield, we had the Kraken Society, we had Zhents, we had treasonous nobles, we had the drow and illithids and aboleths and fiends, we had merchant cabals, we had arcane cabals like the Twisted Rune or the Red Wizards, we had the Eldreth Veluuthra... And then there were all the single players like dragons and wizards and such, on top of that. We had evil organizations in plenty; there was a smorgasbord of evil to choose from when picking a villain.
And then 3E came about, and one little city suddenly became the source of all evil in the Realms, and a goddess who had never been all that prominent and who shunned light was suddenly in the spotlight. It got to where you couldn't swing a dead tressym without hitting at least three Shades.
We went from multiple competing groups, some vying against each other, some manipulating each other, and some just getting in each other's way, to ALL SHAR, ALL THE TIME!
This did not any sense in canon, and ignored years of prior Realmslore. And it took a lot of depth out of the setting, leaving something one-dimensional in its place.
This is why I hate what they did with Shar and Shade. It's not that I dislike using them as villains, I just hate that they became the only villains.
I also just can't buy that the city of shade had THAT MANY resources and there had never been any information on them leaking over to Toril really in all that time. If they were that strong and powerful, I see individuals coming over and causing mischief... I see there at least being some knowledge of the city of Shade existing in "the plane of shadow". If however, they DIDN'T have the resources we're seeing now.... well, then I could buy them being hidden and a powerful entity possibly on par with the power level of the Zhents, Cult of the Dragon, etc... |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 17 Aug 2014 : 14:38:35
I have to disagree with you on that one Wooly. Its not that Shade became the only villains , it would be more accurate to say that they became the most serious threat. I mean lets be honest here the likes of the Knights of the Shield or the Zhentariam were never going to conquer the realms or pose any sort of serious threat to its long term survival. At the most they were regional powers, Shade however was a superpower and what is more heroic than a tale of adventurers battling against unfathomable odds and still succeeding.
Perhaps it was overused a little but I feel the concept was sound and needed more time to be properly implemented. Also it helped to provide a counterweight to Cormyr and the elves. Of course now Cormanthor and Shade have both been blown up so we will never know. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Aug 2014 : 04:53:02
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Who should take the lead in 5e?
No one should take the lead.
Part of my opposition to Shar and Shade was that in prior editions, we had priests of evil deities, we had the Cult of the Dragon, we had the Knights of the Shield, we had the Kraken Society, we had Zhents, we had treasonous nobles, we had the drow and illithids and aboleths and fiends, we had merchant cabals, we had arcane cabals like the Twisted Rune or the Red Wizards, we had the Eldreth Veluuthra... And then there were all the single players like dragons and wizards and such, on top of that. We had evil organizations in plenty; there was a smorgasbord of evil to choose from when picking a villain.
And then 3E came about, and one little city suddenly became the source of all evil in the Realms, and a goddess who had never been all that prominent and who shunned light was suddenly in the spotlight. It got to where you couldn't swing a dead tressym without hitting at least three Shades.
We went from multiple competing groups, some vying against each other, some manipulating each other, and some just getting in each other's way, to ALL SHAR, ALL THE TIME!
This did not any sense in canon, and ignored years of prior Realmslore. And it took a lot of depth out of the setting, leaving something one-dimensional in its place.
This is why I hate what they did with Shar and Shade. It's not that I dislike using them as villains, I just hate that they became the only villains. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 23:12:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Didn't all the gods team up to lock cyric away, after some trial? At least I remember it that way
If you're referring to Cyric being locked in his realm after killing Mystra, only Tyr, Lathander, and Sune were involved in that.
...Which conveniently took a major evil deity out of the picture, allowing Shar to have more of the limelight...
I didn't mind that, because I can only take so much of Cyric bumbling his way into success. I enjoy Shar a great deal more as a villain. The Shadovar were a lot of fun to read about in 4e. Kemp brought them to life better than anyone. RAS did some cool stuff with Cavas Dun. ESDB had some awesome Shar worshippers in his series: Sithe, Hessar, and Kirenkirsalai. I enjoyed seeing each of the authors give a different take on Shade.
But now Shade's time is rightly coming to an end. Who should take the lead in 5e? I'm thinking:
1) The Cult of the Dragon (who is already causing trouble)
2) Bane (he consolidated a lot of power in 4e, and is ready to make major moves)
3) Manshoon (he'll lose like he always does, but he never quits)
4) Abolethic Sovereignty (they were supposed to be a major threat in 4e, but the Shadovar hogged all the spotlight)
5) Yuanti (just as awesome as the drow, but they never get to do anything big. They have had a few excellent novels, but they need more spotlight.)
6) Levistus (the Sundering will break him free from that ice and enable him to take over. Asmodeus ruling Hell forever is boring.)
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Aug 2014 : 22:56:54
Dark limelight? What does that even look like? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Aug 2014 : 04:27:26
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Didn't all the gods team up to lock cyric away, after some trial? At least I remember it that way
If you're referring to Cyric being locked in his realm after killing Mystra, only Tyr, Lathander, and Sune were involved in that.
...Which conveniently took a major evil deity out of the picture, allowing Shar to have more of the limelight... |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 14 Aug 2014 : 03:18:37
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Didn't all the gods team up to lock cyric away, after some trial? At least I remember it that way
If you're referring to Cyric being locked in his realm after killing Mystra, only Tyr, Lathander, and Sune were involved in that. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 13 Aug 2014 : 09:04:28
Didn't all the gods team up to lock cyric away, after some trial? At least I remember it that way |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 22:28:38
I dont recall much of a team vs Cyric. Mystra at the vanguard, Kelemvor (not even a god yet) on the sidelines, a few minor players. Cyric destroyed himself, and likely would have managed to do it anyways regardless of who allied with or opposed him.
That being said, we have already seen an ad-hoc alliance between Lathander and Mask. Not working toward the same goals, but working apart to thwart Shar.
And we all know any cooperation between Faerunian deities is automatically doomed to failure unless the Exalted Overlord, Great Iron-Fisted Bane, is in charge. Or maybe Karsus or Moander. Goody-Two-Shoes goddesses just dont have what it takes to subjugate and annihilate with decisive impunity, and Shar is not noted for being particularly pliant in her responses. Burn the cancer out of the Realms, I say, before it spreads - even if amputation or scars are inevitable. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 10:18:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
IMHO everyone should oppose shar, because no other god or their followers would want toril destroyed.
There shouldn't even be any doubt that others know about her plot when her shadowstorm was raging over Ordulin for god knows how many years, giving all the gods the oportunity to put 1 and 1 together.
There is a difference between general opposition and direct actions taken in support of your portfolio. Lathander, for example, with his focus on rebirth and new beginnings, would be able to do more to oppose Shar, in support of his portfolio, than Selūne would, with her focus on the moon, stars, and navigation.
Amybe but in the end it would be more logical for the gods to team up and stop shar together. Like they did with cyric |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 18:53:59
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
A statement like that borders on philosophy, religion, metaphysics, and McDonald's. But then, what doesn't border on a McDonald's these days? Perhaps McD's is a sort of transitive demiplane which slowly encroaches every corner of every world it touches ... gah, I shouldn't have eaten two Big Macs, makes me giddy and growly.
LMAO |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 17:13:29
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
IMHO everyone should oppose shar, because no other god or their followers would want toril destroyed.
There shouldn't even be any doubt that others know about her plot when her shadowstorm was raging over Ordulin for god knows how many years, giving all the gods the oportunity to put 1 and 1 together.
There is a difference between general opposition and direct actions taken in support of your portfolio. Lathander, for example, with his focus on rebirth and new beginnings, would be able to do more to oppose Shar, in support of his portfolio, than Selūne would, with her focus on the moon, stars, and navigation. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 13:03:36
IMHO everyone should oppose shar, because no other god or their followers would want toril destroyed.
There shouldn't even be any doubt that others know about her plot when her shadowstorm was raging over Ordulin for god knows how many years, giving all the gods the oportunity to put 1 and 1 together. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 14:58:50
I think that turning a forest into a pile of ash is more than just rearranging. And when something is turned from a useful state to a useless state, that's safe to call it destruction.
I think part of why Selūne hasn't been more active in opposing Shar is because shining light and helping people out isn't really the opposite of destruction -- whereas Mystra wants to spread magic, and that can't happen if everything is destroyed. So while Selūne would oppose Shar in general, it's not as much her gig as it would be for some other deities. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 14:02:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think there's anything philosophic about it. A building might take months to build, but an earthquake can knock it down in seconds. A forest might take centuries to grow, but a large enough fire will destroy it in hours.
Even something as simple as a Lego spaceship can take hours to build and one good hit to destroy.
Any act of creation takes effort... And except for rare circumstances, destroying that creation takes a lot less energy.
Therefore, destruction is easier. And so it would be easier for Shar to destroy a world than it would be for Selūne to build one.
Careful though... that is DEFACING or REARRANGING those things, not utterly destroying them. One of the most telling things that I saw mentioned in the Herald was the idea that Shar wants to be known as the destroyer, but she doesn't actually WANT to destroy everyone, because then she has no one "fueling" her. This of course may or may not be true, as it was stated by Larloch.
I would note however that the primordial known as Entropy WOULDN'T be held back by a need for worshippers. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 02:21:22
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
How come we don't hear of selune creating worlds? As her sisters opposite then surely she should be trying to counter her sister by creating?
Because WOTC completely ignores the existence of Selune. Here is the list of deities whose servants directly opposed Shar's machinations in the Twilight War trilogy and the Sundering saga:
Lathander
Mask
Helm
Sune
Cyric
Siamorphe
Mystra
Erin Evans is the only author who used a servant of Selune (Tam from the Brimstone Angels books) to oppose Sharran agents. And he was only opposing some lower level Shadovar.
Shar's major plots (the return and expansion of Shade, using Kesson Rel to unleash the Shadowstorm, trying to absorb the Weave, and convincing Grumbar to leave Toril) have NOT ONCE been opposed by agents of Selune.
Selune was always supposed to be Shar's main rival. Then Shar becomes the ultra bad guy of the setting, and Selune doesn't even get mentioned. I can understand pushing Selune aside for Mystra, because Mystra is more powerful, has more followers, and probably has a bigger fanbase among readers.
I can even understand pushing Selune aside for Lathander. As a sun god, he's a natural enemy of Shar. Plus, it seems that in novels, his Chosen end up saving the day almost as much as Mystra's.
But the other gods have rivalries already. They have unfinished business elsewhere. It seems like WOTC will invent a reason for any god to get involved with Shar, rather than use her most obvious foil. Seriously, Siamorphe gets more face time in the Sundering novels than Selune? That's just a joke. |
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