| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Sep 2012 : 22:51:11
Hello.
To start, I'll premise that I've already said something like what I'm going to write here in the Menzo book thread, but I thought that maybe what I'm looking for would need its own topic.
So the issue is this: the above mentioned sourcebook was supposed to include material which would've brought Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back to the Realms, while giving a proper explanation to the ending of the LP trilogy. However, for reasons that I can only guess, such content (which was developed to the point of including a map and some art) didn't make the final cut of the book.
One of the authors suggested that people who would like to see the new lore released should let WotC know, because doing so could give it a chance to be published in the future as a DDI article or web enhancement. For this reason I've started a thread on their forums, explaining those that I believe to be valid reasons for that lore to be included in the Realms. So, If anyone wishes to see what was in store for Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord and feels like throwing in some support (which would surely be appreciated), the topic is here.
If I'm being annoying about this matter, just close or delete this. In that case you have my apologies: for some reason I feel very strongly about this issue, and I may actually result insistent because of it.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Dec 2014 : 13:02:29
From Ed:
quote:
I have written new lore about the Dark Dancer recently, but I’m afraid how and when you’ll see it is up to Wizards of the Coast, and I can’t legally reveal more. I would not expect to see it as part of this or the next story, if that helps.
http://theedverse.com/#comment-1746433518
IMO the Elemental Evil story looked like a good opportunity to reveal Eilistraee's return, given the original role of the Promenade and that Ghaunadaur is the realmsian Elemental Evil. That is unless they don't plan on using Ghaunadaur in their Elemental Evil plot...
Lets just hope that they won't left this lore to collect dust on the shelves like the info about E&V that should have been in the Menzo book.
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| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 17:33:19
I wish you (or someone) had mentioned Malyk earlier. Nobody responded to my last post, so I went ahead and 'completed' my world's drow pantheon; the seven who I already knew existed (Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee, Lloth, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, and Zinzerena), plus five of my own creation. Now, if I want include Malyk (doubtful, sense he's an aspect of Talos), I'll have to create two more deities for my world*.
*I'd explain this (and initially tried to), but the explanation is rather long and complicated (and I wound up deleting it, because I ran out of space). The simplest explanation I can give is that the pantheons of all the major races of my world consist of three (or multiples thereof) deities.
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| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 03:36:52
Zinzerena was the only drow deity who didn't get much coverage in the Realms (Lolth pretends to be her after she was killed shortly after the ToT). There's also Malyk, who was a drow before his apotheosis but is actually an aspect of Talos. |
| froglegg |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 00:47:01
Just like back in the day I was saying I want my MTV!
Now I want my Eilistraee!
John |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 21:12:23
Yep! I'm pretty sure that's who I was thinking of (the name Zinzerena does look familiar). Unless there are other drow deities that aren't mentioned in the FR books, and if there are, could someone please let me know? And thanks once again, Irennan (I hope you're not too annoyed with all my nonsense). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 09:39:09
quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
Ooh, I fully intend to ! I'm actually going to use the entire drow pantheon, including... um... I'm sorry, what was the name of the one goddess of rogues and assassins? She's not listed in any of the FR books I own, but I've seen her name mentioned occasionally in some of the other threads. Can anyone help me out here?
Do you mean Zinzerena? |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 12 Sep 2013 : 06:46:20
Ooh, I fully intend to! I'm actually going to use the entire drow pantheon, including... um... I'm sorry, what was the name of the one goddess of rogues and assassins? She's not listed in any of the FR books I own, but I've seen her name mentioned occasionally in some of the other threads. Can anyone help me out here? |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 11 Sep 2013 : 03:15:53
Of course E and V can be used in your own games. In a roleplay (it's not D&D, it's through writing) I do with a friend, the two deities are alive and very active. But it was still be nice to see them in FR again. |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 10 Sep 2013 : 22:19:49
@CorellonsDevout:
It is nice to be able to communicate with others who feel the same as me. 
@Irennan:
*breathes deeply* Ah, much better. Thank you again, Irennan, that's put thing's back into perspective for me. It also occurred to me that I can always include Eilistraee in my own homebrew D&D world, in addition to my FR campaign.(What's really great about the former is that, as it is my world, I can have the canon events of the world be whatever I decide they are, and not have to worry about what anybody says. BWA-HA-HA-HA! I'm sorry, I had to get that out of my system.) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 10 Sep 2013 : 07:44:29
quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
Ugh, now I've got convince myself that 'what happens canonically shouldn't effect my game' all over again.
Well, just consider that LP lore (not judging the novels themselves) dons't bring any depth or hooks that you couldn't have before (no, brownies is not a valid plot hook, as normal drow could have gone and started rebuilding Miyeritar w/o changing skin color) while sucking out a lot of it, and that the storyline is kinda nonsensical, if we consider how pointless and even ooc the actions and choices of some deities are (not to mention the premise to the whole event).
There, your job just got easier, as you're not missing out on anything by leaving this canon out of your Realms. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 10 Sep 2013 : 03:13:01
Don't worry, DD, you aren't alone in your wishes. That's why this is such a hot topic |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 10 Sep 2013 : 02:32:26
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I wouldn't expect free stuff from any corporate, tbh. That's why I made that plea for a DDI article with the material and art they already own and ready to be put in article format.
Considering that -AFAIK- DDI is getting less and less filled with every issue (so, it probably isn't a size problem) and that in about 1 year from the release of the book nothing has happened, I'd conclude that they don't really care about this side of the drow.
Alas, that's probably true.
... *BLEEP!* Sorry, seeing this has ticked me off again. Ugh, now I've got convince myself that 'what happens canonically shouldn't effect my game' all over again. What's worse is I'm reminded just how much I want Eilistraee to return (and have to deal with those feelings again,too). |
| Zireael |
Posted - 09 Sep 2013 : 10:13:07
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I wouldn't expect free stuff from any corporate, tbh. That's why I made that plea for a DDI article with the material and art they already own and ready to be put in article format.
Considering that -AFAIK- DDI is getting less and less filled with every issue (so, it probably isn't a size problem) and that in about 1 year from the release of the book nothing has happened, I'd conclude that they don't really care about this side of the drow.
Alas, that's probably true. |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 20:00:31
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
No, no words about it yet (AFAIK).
Tell your gaming group that many people get warmed up/upset about non concrete stuff (and not exclusively fictional: just take a look at religions...).
Also, why give up FR? Just ignore the lore from WotC that you dislike. As long as we're talking about playing D&D (or w/e), this really is a non issue (unles your DM is obsessed with canon). The probelm comes up when you want to read new, actually impactful stories about removed setting elements.
Thank you, Irennan, for answering my question, and for both pieces of advice. No matter what I might say, or what happens canonically, I know I could never give up playing Forgotten Realms; there's just so much I love about it! And no, my DM isn't obsessed with canon. He keeps making his own personal changes to the Realms, most notably characters appearing in locations that conflict with where they were in canon. (Especially Olive Ruskettle, who constantly turns up as a running gag to remind me of an event that is lovingly remembered amongst my group as, "The Halfling Incident". *embarrassed cough*) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 09:20:14
No, no words about it yet (AFAIK).
Tell your gaming group that many people get warmed up/upset about non concrete stuff (and not exclusively fictional: just take a look at religions...).
Also, why give up FR? Just ignore the lore from WotC that you dislike. As long as we're talking about playing D&D (or w/e), this really is a non issue (unles your DM is obsessed with canon). The probelm comes up when you want to read new, actually impactful stories about removed setting elements. |
| Drustan Dwnhaedan |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 07:06:50
Just found this topic while I was poking around. So, any word on WotC's final decision? Depending on what the answer is, I may continue playing FR, or just give up and try to wipe the entire setting from my mind. Heh. Guess I must look pretty pathetic, getting so upset over what happened to a fictional character and her goddess,huh? (At least that's what most of my gaming group believes. They may well be right.) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 19:34:35
Yeah, true. But I wouldn't expect that now, when they charge the same amount of money for less and less material in DDI (-AFAIK-). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 19:09:35
quote:
Originally posted by Lothlos
For clarification Optional Web Enhancements need not be free. They could release them for D&D Insiders to add more value or offer material as pdf's where they combine items cut from several works.
I was just thinking of the delivery system being in the form of a downloadable pdf file.
I agree we should not expect free
I dunno, WotC has a long history of free web enhancements. Part of the point of the web enhancement is drumming up additional interest for the sourcebook, too -- so it gives people who have the sourcebook more material and thus makes them happy, and it encourages others to buy the sourcebook, which makes WotC happy. Win-win. |
| Lothlos |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 17:19:34
For clarification Optional Web Enhancements need not be free. They could release them for D&D Insiders to add more value or offer material as pdf's where they combine items cut from several works.
I was just thinking of the delivery system being in the form of a downloadable pdf file.
I agree we should not expect free |
| Irennan |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 21:01:15
I wouldn't expect free stuff from any corporate, tbh. That's why I made that plea for a DDI article with the material and art they already own and ready to be put in article format.
Considering that -AFAIK- DDI is getting less and less filled with every issue (so, it probably isn't a size problem) and that in about 1 year from the release of the book nothing has happened, I'd conclude that they don't really care about this side of the drow. |
| Lothlos |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 20:52:33
I have to say that The Brotherhood of the Griffon and The Haunted Lands got me excited about D&D and Forgotten Realms again.
So I got back into it only to find out Halaster my favorite Evil Mage was dead 'Expedition to Undermountain'; Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, & the rest of the Drow pantheon dead with the exception of Lolth; Qilue Veladorn beheaded; the Promenade almost destroyed; and the Spellplague. As I began catching up on the novels I also find Cadderly as good as dead and the Spirit Soaring in ruins; Drizzt and Catti-brie sort of dead; Manshoon weakened; Mystara dead again, ect... The Realms that I loved, were almost totally unrecognizable just as I was starting to get excited again. The flavor of the 2e and 3.0-3.5 Realms gone.
Now I have some hope that the Sundering will bring back some of that flavor. I bought and have really enjoyed Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms and I will buy the rest of the Brotherhood of the Griffon books, but if the 'power's that be' want one dimensional evil drow, in a world that is totally unrecognizable as the Realms I love there will be no need to buy the products.
It would seem to me in an edition whose strong point is supposed to be options that WOTC should make new lore that they are not planning to publish elsewhere available in web enhancements that are optional. |
| Shere Khan |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 05:20:29
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've got kind of a weird way of looking at things - when it comes to 'the gods', I say "the more, the merrier". However, at the same time (and known only to me), I think most of them are just aliases for the others. So while I have expanded my pantheon exponentially, I have also reduced it at the same time (but only within my head - its not something players would know, or the people of my world). So long as everyone thinks they are dealing with a wide variety of different gods, then thats how it is.
This is fine for DMs dealing with their campaign. However when it comes to the published setting, if the matter allows or encourages it (and this drow pantheon thing totally does, especially considering how they handled it...), the developers should expand on it, tell how the story goes on, give details and not just say ''meh, maybe they're back, maybe they're not''.
The point of buying books for stories and lore is -ofc- getting all of that, but with this kind of approach I feel like getting told ''LOL, deal with it yourself. Now pay us for reminding you that it is possible to customize things in your homebrew''.
You've hit the nail squarely on the head. I feel exactly the same way, and that's why I rarely buy their products any more. You'd think they'd have learned their lesson by now, but it unfortunately appears that they haven't. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 15:38:57
Absolutely I agree with you - thats why I have completely divorced myself from canon at this point. I can thank 4e for being my "12 step program".
"Hello, my name is Mark, and I am a Realmsaholic"
And I've been sober for about 5 years now. 
Depending upon what they do with the Realms in 5e, I may or may not buy anymore realms novels, but I will still be buying sourcebooks, because I can harvest ideas from them for my own campaigns/settings. Unfortunately for many of the novel/story fans, I really don't think they are going to be 'nailing down' the specifics of which deities are 'dead or alive'. I have a feeling it will be more like, "here are the gods that are worshiped in the Realms" presentation (which really has little to do with how active/alive those beings really are).
On the other hand, I could be entirely wrong - they seem to be wanting to detail the outer planes again, and with The Sundering resetting the pantheon, I guess anything is possible.  |
| Irennan |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 14:26:12
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've got kind of a weird way of looking at things - when it comes to 'the gods', I say "the more, the merrier". However, at the same time (and known only to me), I think most of them are just aliases for the others. So while I have expanded my pantheon exponentially, I have also reduced it at the same time (but only within my head - its not something players would know, or the people of my world). So long as everyone thinks they are dealing with a wide variety of different gods, then thats how it is.
This is fine for DMs dealing with their campaign. However when it comes to the published setting, if the matter allows or encourages it (and this drow pantheon thing totally does, especially considering how they handled it...), the developers should expand on it, tell how the story goes on, give details and not just say ''meh, maybe they're back, maybe they're not''.
The point of buying books for stories and lore is -ofc- getting all of that, but with this kind of approach I feel like getting told ''LOL, deal with it yourself. Now pay us for reminding you that it is possible to customize things in your homebrew''. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 13:17:19
I've got kind of a weird way of looking at things - when it comes to 'the gods', I say "the more, the merrier". However, at the same time (and known only to me), I think most of them are just aliases for the others. So while I have expanded my pantheon exponentially, I have also reduced it at the same time (but only within my head - its not something players would know, or the people of my world). So long as everyone thinks they are dealing with a wide variety of different gods, then thats how it is.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I do like the idea of importing Cheliax (or at least its government structure) into the Realms, I have to wonder about one thing with this idea of yours: What is Waterdeep doing interfering with matters half a continent away from them? It'd make a lot more sense for Cormyr to be doing that, even though the distance still makes it a stretch... The Black Network would be a better candidate; they're a lot closer and have a history of interference.
I guess you haven't been following some of my other comments about my FR, spread throughout the forums. I moved the Swordcoast over to the Unapproachable East (swapped it, actually - Aglarond and the other stuff is over on the west coast now).
You can see a WIP of my world HERE.
Note I also moved Dambrath to the north shore of The Moonsea... right near Luskan and Mulmaster. The 'People of the Black Sails' have become Drow - Such fun!  |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 19:19:49
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yes, all the gods will be on the table, but from what I've understood it'll be in the sense that ''hey, you know what? We won't give any info about who's there and who's not. Sort it by yourself''. No thanks, I've already done that on my own, w/o asking anyone for the permission to do it (besides, what's the point of paying for lack of info? And there also are people who don't/can't play, or the ones who care about the setting itself, unrelatedly with the game).
Personally, I want to see how the story of Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and all the dark elves who -in their own different ways- fight to set their people free continues, but I don't believe that WotC likes this idea of drow. I liked what the authors of the latest Menzoberranzan sourcebook did, and it grated my nerves to see that content thrown away. Instead we're still stuck with that nonsensical conclusion about ''the unwilling drow being cast down''....
PS: Weren't Eilistraee and Vhaeraun created by Ed under commission of TSR?
Hear, hear! I agree. I've played D&D a few times, but I mainly read the novels, and I care about the setting. I realize the novels come second to the game, but I think enough people still read them (as evidenced by this site), that content matters. Plus, if I was a cleric, I'd like to know that the power I call upon comes from my and not from another who just might be my deity. I understand WotC is trying to "free it up" to give players more options, but obviously, players have been doing that for years, anyway. If they're going to bring back the gods, they might a well show it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 14:42:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hopefully, when I have more time, I will get back to that project - I have an entire history for it that blends it all together. As of right now, those 'other lands' (continents) are just points of reference, so I can borrow from them; I have no plans to send characters to any of them (but who knows).
Cheliax 'fell', in that its king was assassinated and the (Red) Wizards took over. However, I've swapped-out the tharchions with Chelaxians ones, so its more of an amalgam. Its right next to Varisia - which took the place of Aglarond. Varisia itself got slightly combined with the stuff from the Egg of Phoenix, so that the old Varisian Gov't was Empyrea, and Waterdeep is trying to turn the whole region into 'New Empyrea' (thats what I turned the Lord's Alliance into). That puts the forces of Waterdeep (a more expansionist Waterdeep) against the forces of Thay/Cheliax. The main area of contention (as of right now) are the Nentir & Bloodmoon Vales (so I can use all the modules from both those sub-settings). The lumber consortium is actually backed by Waterdeep interests, and they are trying to monopolize dark Wood (which the Thayans are fighting hard to prevent).
While I do like the idea of importing Cheliax (or at least its government structure) into the Realms, I have to wonder about one thing with this idea of yours: What is Waterdeep doing interfering with matters half a continent away from them? It'd make a lot more sense for Cormyr to be doing that, even though the distance still makes it a stretch... The Black Network would be a better candidate; they're a lot closer and have a history of interference.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
To bring this somewhat back on-topic: I use ALL the gods, including the full Drow pantheon. For instance, Kelemvor is the judge of the dead, and is Pharasma's consort. I am not quite sure what I want to do with Lolth yet - maybe somehow combine her with Lamashtu (although its far from a perfect fit). My Drow are both the 'normal' kind, and the albino kind - the dark ones are the old-school super-evil drow, but are smaller in number to the albino drow, who aren't quite so evil, but are oppressed by the ruling Dark Drow. Most surface dwellers are only aware of the normal (dark) ones, because the others are almost never allowed to leave their cities (they are like serfs).
I'm happy leaving the divine situation as it was in late 2E/early 3E. I'm no fan of the dead three, and I prefer my theory that Bane 2.0 is actually Iyachtu Xvim. I see no reason to bring back Leira or Ibrandul, either. I don't want Amaunator, and I so very strongly dislike the whole "rotating sun deity" idea, which I think causes more issues and questions than its worth. I do want the drow pantheon restored.
And I'm quite tempted, at least in my personal Realms, to bring in Cayden Cailean. He is my all-time fave concept for a fantasy deity. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 14:32:55
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
PS: Weren't Eilistraee and Vhaeraun created by Ed under commission of TSR?
Yup. They originally saw print in FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark, penned by Ed. It is, in my opinion, still the best sourcebook about drow that we've had.
It also gave us a drow character I'm still wanting to know more about, Susprina Arkenneld.
Also, that book gave me the last thing I needed for a particular drow NPC I was working on. If I ever get to DM, I will have much fun using him as a recurring villain. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 14:11:21
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
O.O
That's almost ALL of the settings.
I don't want some of those. Mostly because my goal is to make use of all the books I already own, more so than have to go buy more books, but partly because I do really like Faerun and Golarion.
I like this Thay/Cheliax idea, though I'm not sure I want Cheliax to have fallen.
Hopefully, when I have more time, I will get back to that project - I have an entire history for it that blends it all together. As of right now, those 'other lands' (continents) are just points of reference, so I can borrow from them; I have no plans to send characters to any of them (but who knows).
Cheliax 'fell', in that its king was assassinated and the (Red) Wizards took over. However, I've swapped-out the tharchions with Chelaxians ones, so its more of an amalgam. Its right next to Varisia - which took the place of Aglarond. Varisia itself got slightly combined with the stuff from the Egg of Phoenix, so that the old Varisian Gov't was Empyrea, and Waterdeep is trying to turn the whole region into 'New Empyrea' (thats what I turned the Lord's Alliance into). That puts the forces of Waterdeep (a more expansionist Waterdeep) against the forces of Thay/Cheliax. The main area of contention (as of right now) are the Nentir & Bloodmoon Vales (so I can use all the modules from both those sub-settings). The lumber consortium is actually backed by Waterdeep interests, and they are trying to monopolize dark Wood (which the Thayans are fighting hard to prevent).
The campaign plays out more like choosing between 'the lesser of two evils', but because at its heart its still FR, its more like 50 different evils.
And if you think thats bad, you should see the mash-up in the east, where I combined Kara-Tur with Tian-Xia (with a bit of Rokugon and other stuff thrown into the mix). That area is more Tian-xia then K-T, though, and I had to split Tian Xia in half and then offset it to get it all to work. Shou-Lung is the empire that just fell (in the Golarion lore).
To bring this somewhat back on-topic: I use ALL the gods, including the full Drow pantheon. For instance, Kelemvor is the judge of the dead, and is Pharasma's consort. I am not quite sure what I want to do with Lolth yet - maybe somehow combine her with Lamashtu (although its far from a perfect fit). My Drow are both the 'normal' kind, and the albino kind - the dark ones are the old-school super-evil drow, but are smaller in number to the albino drow, who aren't quite so evil, but are oppressed by the ruling Dark Drow. Most surface dwellers are only aware of the normal (dark) ones, because the others are almost never allowed to leave their cities (they are like serfs). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Jul 2013 : 11:23:38
Yes, all the gods will be on the table, but from what I've understood it'll be in the sense that ''hey, you know what? We won't give any info about who's there and who's not. Sort it by yourself''. No thanks, I've already done that on my own, w/o asking anyone for the permission to do it (besides, what's the point of paying for lack of info? And there also are people who don't/can't play, or the ones who care about the setting itself, unrelatedly with the game).
Personally, I want to see how the story of Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and all the dark elves who -in their own different ways- fight to set their people free continues, but I don't believe that WotC likes this idea of drow. I liked what the authors of the latest Menzoberranzan sourcebook did, and it grated my nerves to see that content thrown away. Instead we're still stuck with that nonsensical conclusion about ''the unwilling drow being cast down''....
PS: Weren't Eilistraee and Vhaeraun created by Ed under commission of TSR? |
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