| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 05:34:22
Hey everyone. Earlier i had started a thread about liches and now i would like to start a thread about fiends.
First off, does anyone know why the succubus can only assume a humanoid shape? I mean, some people are into animals as proven by some people in the RW. Why cant a succubus truly polymorph as per the spell as opposed to only change shape?
And on a side question,why have they been categorised as devils??
Is telepathy and see invisibility/true seeing a staple for every fiend? or is it only on a select few?
Can other fiends be made into familiars besides the quasit and imp? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jan 2013 : 05:41:46
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Do they return as normal or is the fiend "demoted"?
I would imagine that depends on a lot of factors. I would expect, though, that most of those factors would depend on what was going on at "home". A fiend in the middle of a vicious power struggle might get summoned, pop back to the Lower Planes a few days later, and find that a rival or three has kicked him down a few notches.
I wouldn't think that events in the Prime would have a huge impact on fiendish status, unless the fiend's rivals somehow found out that the fiend had been un-summoned in some ridiculous manner, like by being "killed" by a kender with a water balloon full of holy water. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 16 Jan 2013 : 03:00:53
Do they return as normal or is the fiend "demoted"? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 14:30:34
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Is a called creature when killed, permanently dead?
Nope, just sent back to their home plane. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 07:51:04
Is a called creature when killed, permanently dead? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 07:46:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
To me it seems wiser to cast contact other plane or something first. Call ahead, work out the deal, keep the gates between worlds closed. It's a courtesy to celestial types, it's insurance against fiendish types - the Prime is locked to them so why give them free access to it before agreeing on a price? Safer and smarter, whether you know what's out there or not.
Well, if you've got a good binding circle, you just keep them in there, where they can't get out. A lot of the fiction makes it sound like the created portal is linked to the summoned critter (so nothing else will come thru) and that it stays open until the critter is dismissed (so they can get sent home).
I'm not quite sure if I'm recalling this right, as I hated that book...In Pools of Darkness, the Red Wizard (whose name escapes me) used some sort of semi-permanent door or portal he frequently used to summon his pet fiend. Instead of casting a tedious spell and sketching a binding circle on the floor every time he summoned his big, ugly "pet," he just used a trigger word as a "key." |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 15:48:47
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
To me it seems wiser to cast contact other plane or something first. Call ahead, work out the deal, keep the gates between worlds closed. It's a courtesy to celestial types, it's insurance against fiendish types - the Prime is locked to them so why give them free access to it before agreeing on a price? Safer and smarter, whether you know what's out there or not.
Well, if you've got a good binding circle, you just keep them in there, where they can't get out. A lot of the fiction makes it sound like the created portal is linked to the summoned critter (so nothing else will come thru) and that it stays open until the critter is dismissed (so they can get sent home). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 15:04:47
To me it seems wiser to cast contact other plane or something first. Call ahead, work out the deal, keep the gates between worlds closed. It's a courtesy to celestial types, it's insurance against fiendish types - the Prime is locked to them so why give them free access to it before agreeing on a price? Safer and smarter, whether you know what's out there or not. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 15:03:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always assumed that when summoning something from another plane, the summoning spell itself is what opens the pathway for the whatever to come thru to the mortal side.
I may be misremembering... but I think that was exactly the way Monte Cook described the spell's function in the old Planewalker Handbook. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 14:33:20
I've always assumed that when summoning something from another plane, the summoning spell itself is what opens the pathway for the whatever to come thru to the mortal side. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 08:38:28
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
When you call a creature lets say a tanar'ri your gate spell has to be open to the Abyss first right? My friend says you just cast it and then state what you want to call and the creature just comes along...
I think this depends on your GM. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 08:11:39
When you call a creature lets say a tanar'ri your gate spell has to be open to the Abyss first right? My friend says you just cast it and then state what you want to call and the creature just comes along... |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 05:33:45
In Srd the Gate spell does not state in its calling function that when a called creature is killed is it permanently dead? (Death is not so permanent in the Realms much less the planes but any theories or answers are welcomed)
Or like a summoning it returns to its plane of origin?
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 15:36:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think the only way this could all work and not break any 'rules' (D&D or 'multiverse') is that when any outsider is trapped within an item it is just literally bound to it, not inside it. When 'called forth' they are summoned from their home plane and forced to do whatever the binder (or possessor of the item) wishes.
I was thinking of some sort of 'cage' on their home plane, but maybe its not as simple as that. Maybe the magic merely binds them to their home plane/layer (so that they cannot leave and go to another plane/layer where they may be able to use that domains attributes to break free). Thus, the fiend can wander around the hells or whatever but not enter the domain of a god (or an archfiend, I am thinking), because moving from the home plane/layer proper to the domain of the power would constitute a 'crossing a line' that the spell does not allow.
So those items (and tattoos) maybe work like being under house-arrest. In fact, It might be fun to actually portray the outsider as having some physical adornment that others can see (like a collar). Fiends seeing another fiend with such a thing would probably avoid it, out of fear that it would be next (because the bound fiend could give their names to the binder). So the poor thing would be miserable - if it was an archfiend it probably couldn't even enter its own home (or conversely, be stuck within its abode).
So a fiend learns the hard way - it gets killed and reappears in the lower planes (or wherever), and thinks its free... and then 3-5 seconds later the collar also appears and they fall to their knees and scream, "Noooooooooooo!!!"
Cool visual, eh? 
The more I think on this, the more I see one major problem with it. If they're on their home plane, then if they're killed, the item quits functioning. However, I like this idea you've put forth of an item that ties them to their service. Perhaps they're returned to their home plane and then immediately summoned to the "extradimensional space" where they are again trapped. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 05:36:34
Yes, creatures of that sort could be summoned. But the summoner should have some specific knowledge of the creature he's trying to summon, or at least some detailed knowledge of its native plane ... just flinging random gates out across the planes "to get something useful" is *not* a good idea.
And yes, summoning magics can be used to bring creatures to nearly any plane. But the rules and properties of magic are different on many planes (even on many Primes) so variants or embellishments to the magic, spells, or rituals might be required and success is never guaranteed. Planescape lore offers various kinds of "spell keys" and "power keys" which might be required components of such castings.
Again, powerful creatures can resist or ignore summons. If they are more powerful than the summoner they can cause problems and make the summoning magics backfire in some fashion. And once they are successfully summoned, physically present in the same room as the summoner, there is the matter of controlling or binding or negotiating (or begging or banishing). Good-aligned planars might sugar coat this arrangement, but in the end it is a simple matter of dominance and submission, one will control the other. Tales of foolish summoners (and their horrible fates) are common bard's fare.
The Twilight War trilogy has an excellent example of a problematic summoning. A Prince of Shade attempted to summon a devil of middling rank. He immediately learned that, due to a surprising shift of "politics" in Hell, this particular devil was now in the service of Mephistopheles. Old Meph responded to the summons personally, defying the summoner and asserting his own commands immediately upon his arrival in Shade.
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| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 05:14:13
Ayrik, to your answers:
1)Would that mean creatures like abyssal, howling dragons etc most likely any creature not native to the Prime is summmonable?
Can they also be summoned or called while the summoner in question is on the planes? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 12:43:40
quote:
1)Can any or all planar/outsiders be summoned/called?
2)Must a planar born creature when killed has to be sent to its home plane when killed? (example shadow dragon arrives in Prime, gets killed goes back to Shadowfell?)
3)What about if the planar creature arrives through a portal or rift?
1) Any creature can be summoned/called/bound through magic, especially if its True Name is known. Primes tend to be more firmly "anchored" to their Prime Material Planes, and more powerful planars/outsiders tend to be "anchored" to their particular outer planes. But the vast majority of planars are comparatively easy to summon and banish through planar barriers.
2) It's generally always easier to send planars back to their planes of origin than anywhere else, but usually still not difficult to send them to the astral or ethereal planes, slightly more difficult to send them to "neighbouring" planes which have partial affinity.
In AD&D(1E), Fiends on the Prime Material usually held their souls within special amulets which functioned something akin to a lich's phylactery; a fiend could be controlled, banished, even destroyed through its amulet, or the amulet could continue to link the fiend to the Prime after its "death" so it might somehow return without being "banished" for decades or centuries.
3) The method by which the planar arrives at any other plane (including the Prime) is of little consequence, unless it somehow imposes additional limitations (the astral spell spell is one of these limited methods, but only clueless Primes ever use it, all planars are instinctively attuned to thin places between the planar boundaries). The only thing which matters is the nature of the planar, which is invariably the same as the nature of his "native" plane. This rule also applies to Primes who find themselves on the planes; a native of the Realms caught on the Outlands is subject to summoning and banishing methods by the planar locals. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 12:31:48
Well, Furlinastis was a shadow dragon and he was (I assume) killed by the wraiths that bled out of the Shadowstorm in the Prime, together with Abelar. So... |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 12:22:39
I was not thinking in that manner, but like fiends when defeated on the Prime, their entire bodies discorporate and are sent back to their respective plane. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 12:17:50
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
2)Must a planar born creature when killed has to be sent to its home plane when killed? (example shadow dragon arrives in Prime, gets killed goes back to Shadowfell?)
Interesting question. Perhaps Furlinastis, after braving those plethora of soul-sucking wraiths, had his spirit sent back to the Shadowfell to reform and live again? |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 11:54:39
Got a few questions.
1)Can any or all planar/outsiders be summoned/called?
2)Must a planar born creature when killed has to be sent to its home plane when killed? (example shadow dragon arrives in Prime, gets killed goes back to Shadowfell?)
3)What about if the planar creature arrives through a portal or rift?
Thanks a lot!More questions may be coming though... |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 04:57:31
Haha could become an infernal sitcom...
Still that is a good theory on how this works, like an "interplanar summoning leash" Whenever the summoner requires the fiend he activates the item, akin to pulling the leash and the fiend appears to do their bidding. When killed they return to their own plane but are still bound to the leash, unless of course the item that represents the leash/or fishing rod is destroyed. A lot of power is in the binder's hand then.
Still this also points out another "discrepancy" Nevron could apparently hear their telepathic/psychic sendings and only he could hear them, he could even deliver pain to them through this link...What do you think? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 15:05:42
I think the only way this could all work and not break any 'rules' (D&D or 'multiverse') is that when any outsider is trapped within an item it is just literally bound to it, not inside it. When 'called forth' they are summoned from their home plane and forced to do whatever the binder (or possessor of the item) wishes.
I was thinking of some sort of 'cage' on their home plane, but maybe its not as simple as that. Maybe the magic merely binds them to their home plane/layer (so that they cannot leave and go to another plane/layer where they may be able to use that domains attributes to break free). Thus, the fiend can wander around the hells or whatever but not enter the domain of a god (or an archfiend, I am thinking), because moving from the home plane/layer proper to the domain of the power would constitute a 'crossing a line' that the spell does not allow.
So those items (and tattoos) maybe work like being under house-arrest. In fact, It might be fun to actually portray the outsider as having some physical adornment that others can see (like a collar). Fiends seeing another fiend with such a thing would probably avoid it, out of fear that it would be next (because the bound fiend could give their names to the binder). So the poor thing would be miserable - if it was an archfiend it probably couldn't even enter its own home (or conversely, be stuck within its abode).
So a fiend learns the hard way - it gets killed and reappears in the lower planes (or wherever), and thinks its free... and then 3-5 seconds later the collar also appears and they fall to their knees and scream, "Noooooooooooo!!!"
Cool visual, eh? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:51:12
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
AFAIK, Fiends always return to their plane of origin when they die on the prime material plane. I would think only a major artifact could thwart one of the principle building blocks of the multiverse.
EDIT: I just thought about this a little more, and was thinking about how genies and Djinn Bottles work - its basically the same thing. If an outsider is bound to an item and it is killed, it should re-manifest on its home plane... but is it still bound?
Do these items - tattoos, bottles, flasks, etc actually contain the creature, or is it just on a 'short leash' and can be summoned 'from elsewhere' as needed? Even if they do work this way (the creature is summoned upon activation), is it still bound after death? It would seem to me that it would be in an outsider's best interest to be killed, then, which is never how its presented in fiction.
and is this "elsewhere" on their home plane? Such that they are killed, but they return to the trap. Who knows, the elsewhere might be a hollowed out section of the "earth" with binding spells in place on their home plane with no obvious exits or entrances (and possibly a teleportation blocking effect that only works if one has the key). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:41:55
AFAIK, Fiends always return to their plane of origin when they die on the prime material plane. I would think only a major artifact could thwart one of the principle building blocks of the multiverse.
EDIT: I just thought about this a little more, and was thinking about how genies and Djinn Bottles work - its basically the same thing. If an outsider is bound to an item and it is killed, it should re-manifest on its home plane... but is it still bound?
Do these items - tattoos, bottles, flasks, etc actually contain the creature, or is it just on a 'short leash' and can be summoned 'from elsewhere' as needed? Even if they do work this way (the creature is summoned upon activation), is it still bound after death? It would seem to me that it would be in an outsider's best interest to be killed, then, which is never how its presented in fiction. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:24:25
But even iron flasks dont say what happens when the fiend is "killed" |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 07:57:28
Nevron's tattoos are glorified iron flasks, from the SRD. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 05:33:13
As I understand, a Conjurer can bind only "living" fiends in a magical artifact. So a dead fiend goes back to the infernal planes. If it gets reborn in the same or some other form, then its original summoner may still summon it again. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 05:18:34
To anyone who has read Richard Lee Byers Haunted Land trilogy, the Zulkir of Conjuration Nevron displays a quick summoning powers due to binding demons/devils into his tattoos, amulets, rings and so on...How does that work, and moreover if say he binds a bearded devil or such into a ring, he summons it from the ring and it gets killed, what happens to the fiend, does it go back into the ring or back to the infernal planes? |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 10:29:34
Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells has an entry on the Brachnia which should give you some insight into them. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 04:15:07
Does anyone have info on brachina(pleasure devils)? What are their goals/powers/extent of their abilities? Would like to know more about these particular fiends... |
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