| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:55:28
I have been thinking about K-T a lot lately, with 5e on the horizon. The last time I had given it this much thought was at the tail-end of 3e, soon after the 4e stuff came out. I had even extended my timeline forward in to the 4e era for the Kara-Tur project over at the WotC forums. Please take the time to read this - I know its a bit long, but I needed to convey several things at once - Thanks.
I know what I did back then, and why, and I still like it, but with 5e coming around, and certain 'problems' (like distance) cropping up all over again, I had suggested Shou-Lung making overtures toward the west, and even taking over Murghôm. Although that makes sense in terms of game-usability, it conflicts with my 4e ideas (some of which I got to share with BRJ at Gencon). There may be a way of blending the two together, but it does loose a bit of its 'kewl' factor (because the 'thing' I envisioned winds up in the middle of the Shou Empire, if the border moves like that).
So here I am, trying to imagine what would have caused all these changes. And of course I have both the Spellplague and the a century as tools, not to mention pretty much every major RSE since late 1e (including the ToT). And now I have The Sundering as well. My toolbox is full - we can really do whatever the hell we want.
My original thoughts surrounding the Spellplague was a massive rift forming where the Dragonwall used to be. The wall is gone (thats canon), but we would still need some sort of nigh-impassable barrier. Then I figured it had a river of lava at the bototm, with all sorts of sulphurous fumes pouring out (also limiting air-travel above it by most flying creatures). Besides, 'lava rivers' are always at least a +1 on the kewl-O-meter. I had other thoughts as well (in the form of a very different sort of 'bridge') - I'll just put that on a back-burner for now.
What if, instead of the crevasse and lava river I had imagined, that the exploding Dragonwall did even more damage? (it was a god that detonated, after all). What if we got a massive tectonic shift (the surrounding region is canonically geothermally unstable, and there's no Underdark in the east), and we now have a new 'landrise' - that everything east of the old dragonwall has now 'sunk' hundreds of feet, given us a daunting cliff-face as our obstacle? A cliff-face riddled with long-forgotten caves, some of which may lead to long-lost subterranean cities (or maybe not so lost...)
3e used the Lot5R setting for Oriental Adventures. I personally took that as a slap in the face to FR (which kara-Tur is part of). However, a lot of folks were not happy with old K-T, because it did have a lot of derivativeness. With what I propose, we could completely re-imagine a 'new Kara-Tur', based on the old, but with whatever sweeping changes we care to make (like making it more original, like Rokugan/Lot5R).
It could become a swampy jungle land in 5e, filled with all sorts of (Lovecratian?) horrors - that vibe works well if you look at the OA-MM's. In fact, it could be lots of things. And we can shrink it up to fit better (its already been shrunk once). This would also gives us a reason for the ex-patriate Shou to have moved a good chunk of their culture west - the 'old lands' are now very different and horror-filled (with a few pockets of 'evil warlords' and 'monster countries').
That means there could be a reason for Semphar and Murghôm falling into Shou hands (they use to be part of Anok-Imaskar, which is considered the "First Shou Empire", so its not something that hasn't happened in the past). The original peoples would still be present - they'd just be considered 'lower class' now (which is a return to the past as well). DMs can decide how much of the Semphari culture remains (Murghôm never had much detail). I love Semphar, but its redundant with several other regions. In fact, this could even be tied to the 4e lore of those lands being ruled by dragons ('Shou-Lung' literally translates to "followers of the dragon"). So maybe the old regimes in those countries were taken-over by dragons (or dragonborn?), and the shou are just a huge group of refugees that have fled from the 'Sunken Lands' to the east. This would also explain their increased presence in Faerûn-proper, and under the 'support for all eras' paradigm, it means we would also receive new (old) lore about Kara-Tur.
Whats everything think about the basic premise? Sink Kara-Tur and change it drastically, and move the shou west (which 4e was doing anyway)? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 05:17:48
I mentioned earlier that this thread inspired me to do yet another version of my Realms map - this one a complete re-paint of the 1e/2e map with the 3e textures.
I have a WIP here.
Eventually the map will make it all the way to the Shou border. After I place the settlements, and then maybe 'places of interest' (Dungeons) in another, I plan to use this as a basis for a new map of the Eastern Realms. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Sep 2012 : 21:59:14
I found I somehow made a very bad error in proportions when I did my Hordelands and Kara-Tur maps. In trying to make stuff work with the re-shaped Faerun maps, K-T got 'squished' (and I am not talking about the canon 2/3 'squishing' the k-T box maps got when they got shoe-horned into the Realms).
The Raurin is actually twice as large as shown on my Hordelands map, which makes making it into an inland sea even more preposterous - its even bigger then the Raurin (almost like an Eastern Anauroch).
After working on a newer version of my Horde/Taan map, Ive decide not to go so far east, simply because I don't know where 5e is going, and I'd hate to waste my time like that. I was showing part of the coast, but with the new size-corrections the K-T coast is nearly twice as far away (about the same distance to the Dragonwall, as the Dragonwall is to Thay).
I had other problems as well - I found as I went west, I had to 'correct' more and more of the 3e map, which is counter-productive. The point was to get a new 'Eastern Raelms' map to line-up perfectly with the official one (which I never tried before - my own realms map was already axis-corrcted).
So instead I am moving forward with a project I've been wanting to do since the beginning - building a new map using the 3e terrain, but with the 1e/2e contours. If I finish that in any decent amount of time (and pigs fly, and hell freezes over, etc), then I will continue east. By then, I hope to know a little more about what 5eFR will look like. |
| Razz |
Posted - 16 Sep 2012 : 01:00:59
Were I one of Ed's players, I'd have my character be a world-traveler just so he has no choice but to detail more of those lands. :D |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 17:40:44
There is a large gulf over that way, and I discovered an 'unknown city' mentioned in Once Around the Realms. I also discovered a locale named but not placed in the same region, thus I applied the canon name I had to the city.
Its not on that map I posted, but I have placed in on the newer version. The interesting thing about that city is that it exists in the 'lost province' (named in the original Oriental Adventures supplement), and that city is know for a large population of westerners. For whatever reason, that entire area is no longer
part of Shou Lung (or any other country) - my assumption is that it was just never re-taken when the third Shou Empire arose (its not a very hospitable area - a cold, forbidding stretch of coast). Its probably why westerners tend to conglomerate there - there aren't the usual restrictions imposed on foreigners as you find in most of the rest of Kara-Tur.
Anyhow, my point is, if Ed ever does give us some names, I can place them around that gulf and it really won't affect anything - its a great fit. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 15 Sep 2012 : 03:37:56
@MarkusTay
That's the same question and response I was referring to. It wasn't a direct answer from Ed. It was a brief reply from THO about a handful of vague features she recalled off the top of her head from their home game. It's not much to go on, but does (to answer Razz and combatmedic) confirm Ed did indeed think of lands as far as Kara-Tur, even if they may be very different from the fantasy Asia of the official Eastern Realms. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 23:47:47
When we working on the Utter East project, we had decided to go with Minotaurs in the Ue to compliment the Yakmen just to the south in Zakhara. Then, as I was working on K-T material, I decided to put Goatmen on the other side of the Mountains (more toward the south and the coast).
This gives us a 'beastman' creature in each of the three main campaign areas, all around the Yehimals.
There are also Gnolls (Dogmen) in the mountains along Guge and Tabot, and some truly ancient (8000+ years) temple with pics of beastmen in that same area. All of this added up to a Rakshasa presence in the Yehimal mountain range (because I blame them for most of the half-beast races). Except for the Yakmen (and Gnolls), all homebrew, of course.
Also, the forest between the Utter East and Zakhara is known as "Herne's Woods" - another beast connection (since Maler absorbed Herne in the Realms). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 22:35:42
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Perhaps focusing on more mystical elements can prove for an interesting way to change things up. The gods of Kara-Tur and their unique influence on the cultures there could give some guidelines into how they might have weathered the centuries of changes. Also what powerful mythical creatures are candidates for being real 'movers and shakers' of their areas?
Obviously dragons are good and flavourful candidates for having had a hand in the politics, landscape exploitation, wars and disasters in all of Kara-Tur. Perhaps a rise of Oni that claim to power in Wa? A plague spread by Rashasa? Meddling Efreeti?
I am by no means a master of Kara-Tur lore (I never bought the original book, but I think I have a download whenever TSR was giving free downloads... never looked at it). However, if they did a derivative thing with the countries, then probably your best thing to do is focus exactly on this kind of thing... how do the monstrous and mystical cultures change things? Also, what creatures from other cultures might be found in Kara-Tur... for instance the yak-men of Zakhara. What has been revealed about the underdark beneath Kara-Tur? Maybe the Quaggoth that are so downtrodden beneath Faerun actually flourished in Kara-Tur? Maybe there's a catfolk (from races of the wild) culture, and maybe this catfolk culture also has wemics that live amongst them (kind of like humans and centaurs living amongst each other)?
I know they also had spelljammers... what cultures did they get involved with and did they bring any cultures back with them?
What sea civilizations are there? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 17:57:09
Durpar would NOT be trying to expand.
In the Desert of desolation material, they had old (ancient) trade-routes across the Raurin, after Imaskar fell (during the comparatively brief survivor-state period). Even after those Kingdoms fdeclined (their are two discussed in DoD, and Solon was another from the Hordelands stuff), they managed to continue trade with Semphar and Murghôm for a time, until the 'badness' of the Desert (monsters, etc) made it non-profitable. Hence the name, "Desert of Desolation".
In the module(s) of the same name, we have Durpar with some desire to re-establish those routes. The push isn't very strong though, because they have been able to trade with K-T through the Old Iron Road (through Guge), and into the Inner Sea via the Alamber and Mulhorand. Up until the end of 3e, the monsters of Veldorn were not numerous enough and/or organized enough to stop most of this trade. During the Spellplague and on into the 4e era, Veldorn was subsumed into the Beastlands, and trade north (via that route) has become too dangerous. Trade east through Guge probably stopped for a time during the Tuigan War, but that may have resumed (however, we still don't know what sort of craziness was occurring in K-T during the Wailing Years).
Ergo, re-establishing their old trade routes across the desert seems the best option again (other then long sea voyages), and it may now be safer to cross regardless (with Pandorym gone, and the events of the DoD supplement having been played-out, and Tan Chin no longer being in Solon). There are two unaligned towns on the southern shore of Brightstar Lake - Fars, and Darrabhal. My thoughts on this is that after a decent, steady trade-route is re-established, the Durpari would have a strong presence in Darrabhal. As things stand, it is still independent, but the government of the town is in Durpar's (well-paying) pocket. They have built the place up, adding a few tall building that would allow for them to have docking for their skyships.
As for Fars, that has become a seedy 'everything goes' type of town, that makes no qualms about who uses their facilities (in other words, a pirate port). You can see both of those towns on my old Hordelands map. That gives us four nations with major interests on the Lake, a pirate port, and connections both east and west (to the Inner sea) for trade. It makes the entire area more useful, more interesting, and more accessible.
@Dark Wizard - I believe Ed did respond to your question, or one just like it. Either that, or it was something I may have read in the Realms-List. I know I had put it all in a document in my K-T stuff, but that's gone now. It wasn't much; it was just a glimpse of how Ed pictured it.
EDIT: Found it! This forum doesn't have post #'s (another improvement we need), but its in THO's response about halfway down the page. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 04:06:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Moving Forward:
Looking at the map right now, I think I see what else I might have done - I extended the water much further north then the wall ever went. I wanted it to be a better barrier (against the Tuigan) then the wall ever was. I'm going to be away from home for a few days, so I won't be able to tweak it some more - maybe when I get back.
Beside water and a wall, what else could I use as a barrier to the north there? A ravine won't work, because it would just fill-in with water. Hmmmm... I have to fix all those cliffs (they are all backwards... which is one of the reasons I never released my Kara-Tur map) - I think maybe my original cliff/landrise idea would work in that area. Maybe most of the eastern edge of the sea could be cliffs, which is why no towns have sprung up along that coast.
A cliff would be fine, but a ravine might work too. Imagine the Dragon Wall sloped up as it approached the Chukei Plateau, so that even though the terrain was cleft, the altitude of the bottom of the ravine is still higher than that of the point where the Arundi river leaves the new lake. The Merket Depression, in its turn, would be much lower, but surrounded by hills, making it an endorheic basin. I'm not sure if there's any information that would contradict that, but if not, all that's needed is some convenient interpretation of the terrain. The only problem I see is that it might look a bit silly and/or confusing to have some kind of gorge next to the Merket Depression.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I can probably fudge stuff where I want the original dragon to have been, and get a more crescent-shaped Sea in that area. Combining that with the Semphar tweaks I have in-mind, it should work out well. I wish I could connect it to the gorge that flows out into the shining Sea, but as I said earlier, I can't really have water flowing in two directions. I can just give Durpar a town on the southern coast of Brighstar Lake, and say they've re-opened the caravan routes since 2e (which they were trying to do canonically regardless).
I suppose you could make another canal into the Jumpa River Gorge (maybe a subterranean one like that one in Thindol), though that's a lot of canals.
And why would Durpar attempt conquest or colonization across the Raurin? Have they tried that in the past? If not, I'd suggest they just had control of caravan routes across the Raurin, but not a town in the southern Gbor Nor (a large trading post would seem okay though).
Not sure how all that stuff would look on your updated version though, I'm just working with the current one.
|
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 03:05:14
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Has anyone asked Ed what his original intention was for an Oriental fantasy setting in the Realms was?
Indeed- or has anyone asked him if he had such an intention at all?
I suspect that he did not.
Thay, the South, and the 'Utter East' are the 'mysterious far away lands.' No need, then, for Kara Tur.
YMMV
I asked him this very question a couple of years ago. He hasn't responded directly as far as I recall, but at the time THO commented on their home game. She recalls that Ed does have some distant lands far beyond Thay and the Unapproachable East. There's even a map of several kingdoms around a sea-gulf. The general concept is 'exotic' but nothing specific beyond that term. Nothing inherently 'oriental' or far eastern about it mentioned.
I believe he used them much in the same way the real Far East was to Medieval/Renaissance Europe, a mysterious land almost as unreal and beyond belief as it was distant and exotic. It was a rumor mill, churning out plot hooks. Need a mysterious benefactor for your villainous groups, look east. Need strange magics unseen even by Faerunian experts in strage magics, rumors point east.
The reason these haven't appeared (aside from Kara-Tur being now an official part of the published setting) and a reason why I believe Ed most likely will not provide any real detail about his works in that area (even as an unofficial aside on these boards) is because when he sent the material to TSR, Jeff Grubb said they had more than enough to work with using Faerun itself. He either sent the material back or refused the material, and since TSR never saw it, asked for it, or paid for it, the material still belongs to Ed. If he were to reveal the material, it would fall into a nebulous canon status and probably become property of WotC.
Nebulous canon because anything Ed says about the Realms is Realms canon, until or unless WotC overrides it with their own material. WotC already has KT as an official override, but just because they're not going with Ed's version doesn't mean they don't own it because it was originally a part of the Realms. So as long as Ed keeps it under wraps and doesn't claim it's part of the Realms, it's still his material to do with as he pleases. He could theoretically file the Realms serial numbers off and fix it up as its own setting to be published in a separate agreement with any company willing to publish it. This is a very real possibility because Ed has designed game settings outside the Realms, both by his own design (Castlemourn) or for-hire for established settings (Kalamar, Golarion, Midgard). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:52:14
Of course, and large angry Cimmerians. 
I've been tinkering with it, and I've run into a wall. My Hordelands map was imperfect (Gasp!). It was good for what it was, but I had been working on a better version when I lost everything. Semphar should be a bit smaller and a bit more north; not much, just a tad. Also, a few other things need to be tweaked as well (I really hate how the Raurin looks when you try to combine the 3e map with the old 2e maps of the east).
So now I am thinking about a new 'Eastern Realms' map. Part of the problem (a BIG part) was getting my maps to line-up with the official 3e map... but I really don't have to worry about that so much anymore, do I?
Also, With what I have now - I greatly reduced the sea - I'm still not really 'feeling it'. I think I need to move away from my original concept of having water fill-in where the Dragonwall used to be. Had the wall been closer to the river it might have worked. So now I am going with some thoughts I (and others) had discussed concerning the nature of the Dragonwall - that the entire thing couldn't have possibly been the original dragon. Thus, parts were later added on (and enchanted) to match the existing wall, but those sections would not have exploded when the dragon was released in 1385 DR (this is actually based on canon - there are already rebuilt sections where parts of the dragon have been previously released, and those sections were rebuilt without the dragon's spirit being interred in it).
So I can probably fudge stuff where I want the original dragon to have been, and get a more crescent-shaped Sea in that area. Combining that with the Semphar tweaks I have in-mind, it should work out well. I wish I could connect it to the gorge that flows out into the shining Sea, but as I said earlier, I can't really have water flowing in two directions. I can just give Durpar a town on the southern coast of Brighstar Lake, and say they've re-opened the caravan routes since 2e (which they were trying to do canonically regardless). |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:24:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See, this is why I'm glad I ask these questions and start these kinds of topics. I realize now that I was looking at this all wrong. I also love Kara-Tur, and I think I put my desire to "move forward in 5e" ahead of my love for the setting, which is just weird (now that I've thought about it more). I was willing to destroy a great swath of it just to hear about it.
I am going to try and cobble together something today - I have become enamored of a direct sea connection. Brightstar Lake/Gbor Nor is connected to the Inner Sea, and the Rauthenflow is indeed nevigable now, or at least it was in 3e (there used to be rapids, which were magically removed). I am now picturing something along the lines of the Vilayet sea from Conan's Hyboria where the wall used to be.
Ooooooh, Vilayet!
Will there by Kozaks and lake pirates? |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:20:18
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Has anyone asked Ed what his original intention was for an Oriental fantasy setting in the Realms was?
Indeed- or has anyone asked him if he had such an intention at all?
I suspect that he did not.
Thay, the South, and the 'Utter East' are the 'mysterious far away lands.' No need, then, for Kara Tur.
YMMV
|
| Razz |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 20:15:08
Has anyone asked Ed what his original intention was for an Oriental fantasy setting in the Realms was? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 08:48:44
I thought it was a bit too big as well, but several factors come into play.
The Why:
First, we have the crater/ravine where the Dragonwall used to be. Then we have the Merket Depression (where you see the deep water), and then you have the existing river, which is the western edge of the new sea. The water needed to fill-in where the wall used to be (to create a new obstacle), then that water would have filled in the Merket depression (a large canyon), and all of this would have been facilitated by the river, who's sources are from different points in the old desert but merged together to form that river.
So the water spread from the river east, filling in the canyon and then the ravine (old Dragonall) as it went. All the desert to the west of the river I simply turned into plains (You can compare the two maps by looking at this original). I did extend the sea in a couple of places to make certain towns/cities coastal (and several are beneath the water now). I only added a couple of new settlements down by the Canal, and one fishing village up in the NE corner of the sea.
The only other way I could have done is is to just fill in the ravine and canyon and keep the river separate, but then I would end up with something that looked like the letter 'H'. I made all the hills from my original map into islands, to take from the enormity of the new sea. It is also a very shallow body of water (except where the Merket Depression use to be).
I just wanted to give the Shou a 'closer' presence without taking from anything else. You could even just go with the map and ignore the rest of the stuff I proposed (like that Shou-Lung now controls Semphar - just give them that one city, Estanil). I like the idea of Shou ships plying the waters of the Inner sea without having to blame everything on portals. Also, trade from Durpar can move up through Semphar and out to sea as well; the Durpari have airships, and I can see them having a few regular ships on Brightstar Lake to maintain their own interests (their goods used to move north through Mulhorand, but with the Beastlands there in 4e I doubt that anymore).
Moving Forward:
Looking at the map right now, I think I see what else I might have done - I extended the water much further north then the wall ever went. I wanted it to be a better barrier (against the Tuigan) then the wall ever was. I'm going to be away from home for a few days, so I won't be able to tweak it some more - maybe when I get back.
Beside water and a wall, what else could I use as a barrier to the north there? A ravine won't work, because it would just fill-in with water. Hmmmm... I have to fix all those cliffs (they are all backwards... which is one of the reasons I never released my Kara-Tur map) - I think maybe my original cliff/landrise idea would work in that area. Maybe most of the eastern edge of the sea could be cliffs, which is why no towns have sprung up along that coast. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 03:28:30
Markustay, I really like your idea of a lake and a canal in that area as a catalyst for Shou expansion westwards. Taking it further, couple that with a new Faerûnian canal (there's a few possible sites such as between River Chiontar and the Dragonmere, between Lake Esmel and the Deepwash, or through a newly reestablished Nagawater) and one could actually sail across the continent.
But as for your Quoya Lake, I'd make it smaller, covering a strip along the northern Katakoro to the Rendai Hills. Along the rest of the path where the wall stood there could be a dry gorge just above the level of the lake. I'm assuming the big river that runs through the Quoya Desert is fed by underground waterways coming from the glaciers, so if you had a rift in the middle of the way, it would start to fill up - and then you could get an outflow heading north towards the Yal Tengri, but you need not lose the entire Quoya.
Just my two cents... your map is really cool as it is, but I like to make the impact of changes smaller, and in my opinion a desert in the Quoya basin fits really nicely. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:53:20
Re-did it: The New Inland sea
Note that I mostly used existing settlements and worked the lake around them. Originally I had Lo Tu right on the sea, but then I realized that made no sense. In order to do that, I'd have to loose the river connecting it to the Great Ice Sea (Yal Tengri), which is what actually widened to form the new sea (after the Dragonwall exploded and left a big crater). You can't have a lake with two exit-waterways. Thus, Lo Tu has a small canal leading to the Quoya Sea. The river going to Lo Tu is canon, but it used to be fed by the glacier, and that river now runs directly into the new sea. So with some Shou ingenuity, they built the canal which now feeds into the remainder of that river. All of this created two additional inland lakes (which was done on-purpose by the Shou).
The Grand Canal of Shou-Lung (just called the Grand Shou Canal in the west) is about the same size as an existing (canon) Shou canal way to the east, so this is something they are capable of (and had a hundred years to build). Semphar is once-again a vassal-state of Shou-Lung, but the only major Shou presence is in Estanil. Estanil has grown from a small town to a bustling city thanks to the Shou (much of the city is designed in the Shou style), and is the seat of the provincial governor. The administrative capitol is still in Dhaztanar. Aside from Estanil, the Shou remain a minority in Semphar, living in their own neighborhoods within the Semphari towns. The only other large communities of them would be in the port towns for trade reasons (Dhaztanar having the second largest percentage of Shou immigrants in the country).
Murghom is controlled by the Imaskari. I have no idea if they will bring the Mulan back into Mulhorand, but either way, the 'new Imaskari' can still have Murghom. I find it interesting that two 'heirs' to the Imaskar Empire are now both vying for control of the region (which keeps them busy maneuvering against each other, and out of everyone else's hair).
Other Ideas:
I also thought it might be interesting (in 5e) to use some of the 4e lore: The dragon Kings have fallen - The Murghomi one to the Imakaskari, and Gaumahavi (who ruled in Semphar) stepped down. However, they left their dragon disciples behind who now adminster to the two kingdoms under the thumb of the two empires. The Semphari dragonborn are the old (Faerûnian) Dragonborn, who are considered 'divine servants' by the Shou. The Murghomi Dragonborn are the new Abeir variety, and they do not get along with their 'cousins' across the Gbor Nor. Skirmishes have broken out a number of times along the 'neutral zone' (Plain of Heroes), but its only a matter of time berfore open warfare is declared. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 07:39:49
So I spent the last 3 hours redesigning the east - mostly placing a vast sea where the Quoya desert was, but also adding lots of other 'kewl stuff'. It was coming out pretty damn good, if I do say so myself.
Then GIMP crashed... and I hadn't saved since almost the beginning. I HATE doing maps. 
GIMP = PURE GARBAGE. I think I'll wait until I get another copy of Photoshop before I do any more - its just too frustrating working with this crap program.
Anyhow, the concept worked fine (I even placed islands in the sea wherever my old map showed hills). The only thing that I had to tweak was some of the northern rivers in Semphar, which is okay since it seems the Spellplage changed all of that anyway. I had to create a canal along the old caravan route, which is fine - Shou-Lung is known for building those. I didn't lose any of Kara-Tur, except a where I placed a lake (filled in a loop in the river I was using) - all I really lost was a redundant desert. I managed to connect Shou-Lung directly with the Inner Sea, via 'occupied Semphar', which was the whole point of this exercise (and because of the river that ran to the Celestial Sea, also gave access to Wu & Kozakura shipping).
Maybe I'll give it a go again tomorrow; I need some sleep. |
| Quale |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 21:54:14
it could have huge krakentua vs. lung dragon vs. kaiju battles |
| ZeshinX |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 16:22:50
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Rakshasas actually come from (Eastern) Indian lore.
I sit corrected. Thanks Hawkins.  |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 15:43:56
Rakshasas actually come from (Eastern) Indian lore. |
| ZeshinX |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 14:18:03
The Oni and Kami (spirits) would definitely have a huge amount of influence in that area. The Rakshahsa and Efreeti are more Arabian/Middle Eastern in flavour and have plenty of regions in Faerun and Al-Qadim, so they don't need any significant presence (i.e. coverage) in KT. I wouldn't suggest none at all, but certainly a minimal presence.
Dragons are also a huge part of KT lore, so they'd definitely be involved in some fashion. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 08:51:23
We already got the Efreeti part in Calimshan if i am not mistaken and it ruined the region imo. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 03:39:42
Perhaps focusing on more mystical elements can prove for an interesting way to change things up. The gods of Kara-Tur and their unique influence on the cultures there could give some guidelines into how they might have weathered the centuries of changes. Also what powerful mythical creatures are candidates for being real 'movers and shakers' of their areas?
Obviously dragons are good and flavourful candidates for having had a hand in the politics, landscape exploitation, wars and disasters in all of Kara-Tur. Perhaps a rise of Oni that claim to power in Wa? A plague spread by Rashasa? Meddling Efreeti? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 20:00:41
See, this is why I'm glad I ask these questions and start these kinds of topics. I realize now that I was looking at this all wrong. I also love Kara-Tur, and I think I put my desire to "move forward in 5e" ahead of my love for the setting, which is just weird (now that I've thought about it more). I was willing to destroy a great swath of it just to hear about it.
I am going to try and cobble together something today - I have become enamored of a direct sea connection. Brightstar Lake/Gbor Nor is connected to the Inner Sea, and the Rauthenflow is indeed nevigable now, or at least it was in 3e (there used to be rapids, which were magically removed). I am now picturing something along the lines of the Vilayet sea from Conan's Hyboria where the wall used to be. |
| ZeshinX |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 15:37:53
I'm a huge fan of Kara Tur and would love some more content, but as it is, I'm content to wait and see how they deal with Faerun in 5E. Specifically, how they approach the 'Sundering' event and how the clean up the chaos 4E wrought. If I find I like what the Realms becomes/is becoming, then I'd be massively interested in KT.
Love your ideas though Markustay, though I will agree with some that obliteration is not the way to go. Shifting a bit, sure thing, but more additive, less destructive. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 08:22:28
I realize that what I am suggesting is even worse then what 4e did in some respects, but the problem is that we do now have Shou all over the place. They actually become redundant with their own homeland (whats the point of Kara-Tur, if every bit of it is avaialable in Farûn?)
We could just move them closer, into Semphar and/or Murghom, but that would just make them even huger then they already are. The Shou Empire is already monolithic without adding on tons more territory.
i just think if we leave it where it is, and keep it just like it was, it will never get any damn coverage because its just too far away. When asked directly about 'far away places' (other Torillian continents), James Wyatt answered "we want to just concentrate on the Heartlands right now. That doesn't mean it isn't possible at some point in the future".
Which means by the time they grow tired of detailing the Heartlands, 6e rolls around and we rinse & repeat once again, and K-T (and every other 'beyond Faerûn' region) gets ignored for yet another edition. I love Kara-Tur, but I think the only way it will get any love is if we move it right up against Faerûn... otherwise it might as well not even be there.
Same goes for Zakhara and Maztica (if they bring it back).
What if it stays the same shape, but some other major 'badness' happens to it? After all, FR got nuked in 4e, so why not say the same happened to K-T (or worse)? It doesn't have to be a flood - I just thought a new 'landrise' would make a neat replacement for the old Dragonwall. Whatever the reason, we'd still be able to say there are major Shou populations in the Taan region now. Maybe just an inland sea, or something (either connect it to Gbor Nor, or give shou-Lung a port somehow on Brightstar lake.
Hmmmm... that would be interesting... I'll have to tinker with that. What if the crater left by the wall exploding created a new inland sea? A narrow one. |
| Razz |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 04:32:46
Kara-Tur simply just needs a rewrite.
Take the best parts, the parts that gave the nations a distinct Asian-feel (one like China, one like Japan, etc.), and the parts that were extremely fantastical and add MORE of that to the regions. Over half the work is already done, but for the other half, just be more unique with the rest.
I agree I did not like the nations being way too close to their RW counterparts, but we do need enough of a distinction so people can say "Ah yes, I want to play a Shaolin monk type, this is where they originate" or "Ah yes, Bushido and ninja are from this land" or "Yes, an ancient India setting works best here". But at the same time, make them blend into each other a bit and give them more unique traits (the original OA barely scratched on this when they took the classes and gave them a different naming scheme depending on what land you were from, but they never really detail what a "samurai in a Chinese-like land" is like compared to one from Kozakura, etc.).
The other parts I didn't like about Kara-Tur was how extremely humanocentric it was. Sure, there were many small tidbits scattered suggesting otherwise, but it felt like the humans of Kara-Tur were giants compared to all the other fantastical elements of the setting that kind of took backstage.
Problem is, no one at WotC wants to take on this task. It is a monumental task, but if Kara-Tur is ever going to "rise again", that's really the only way to get it done.
Which leads me to give a little praise to how the folks at Paizo handled their setting. They're fleshing out their world the way the FR Designers should've been fleshing Toril out. Pathfinder doesn't solely focus on one continent, like FR seems to ooze Faerun in everything, leaving little to no room for anything else. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 01:14:51
Not so sure about this idea with the flood and moving eastern elements closer to the west. At its heart, this is all a very 4E-Realms-style concept (and we know how well some of those turned out). It is purely subtractive, removing lands and locales from the setting, squeezing in cultures closer together, some will inevitably "kill someone else and take their stuff."
This is more of the same changes we saw in 4E (Shining South, Vilhon Reach, Old Empires), destroy the periphery areas around Realms to focus on the Core Realms. The setting just got smaller yet again when some people already complained the setting got too small as it was. I feel this change would lose more good features than it would gain. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 11:26:24
If large parts of Kara-Tur are flooded i would guess that those creatures unless they are waterbound would move aswell and seek out areas where they could make a living.
As for the Hobos as potential place to be, the Iceroot Wood and the Umberwood in the northern Plain of Horses as their domain and they become the menace of the imigrant Shou? |
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