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 Likes/Dislikes of 4E Realms, Wish List for 5E

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
deserk Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 00:27:40
Hey, seeing as 5E's being developed now, and 5E Realms, I'd like to post what changes I as a FR fan would really like to see for the new edition of Forgotten Realms.

I figure anyone else who's equally anxious about the new edition might as well post what changes they'd like to see here as well.

Though I'm not a fan 4E Realms, the purpose of this thread is not to create edition arguments but for people to make relatively short notes of what they liked or disliked about 4E and what they want to see for the new Realms, to make it easy for FR designers to get an idea of what FR fans specifically would like to see.

So, below here is just my personal opinions and wish. Feel free to post your own wish list here. Would be interesting to see what other people want 5E Realms to be like.

Deserk's List:

What I liked about 4E Realms:
  • The return of the Netherese (would have preferred if they were a bit less stronger than portrayed 4E)

  • The return of the Imaskari (would have liked it more if the Imaskari were concentrated in Raurin, the heart of their ancient homeland, rather than taking over all of Mulhorand)

  • Elfharrow, wild elf savannah/desert region (more elf countries is always a plus, more so that it's a wild elf region :) )

  • Najara, the Snake Kingdom

  • Oman, a former Northlander isle of the Moonshae, being turned to a Cyclops kingdom (albeit, would have been cooler imo if it were turned into a Frost Giant kingdom)

  • Myth Drannor turned into a proper Elven kingdom again (though technically this sort of happened in late 3.5)

  • Murandinn, a monster realm south of Amn (technically after ToT this, but it seems they have consolidated their power more in 4E)

  • Tethyr made a little less of a "goody" paradise and more politically fragmented like in the olden days of Tethyr (Tethyr in 3rd edition never really seemed like a good spot for a D&D campaign to be set in, considering the lack of monsters and shady characters with power)


  • What I disliked about 4E Realms:
  • The Realms getting "smaller" (since I believe the general philosophy for 4E Realms was to give a lot of room for DMs to be creative. But imo, a bigger and detailed Realms like that in 1st/2nd edition really made FR what it was, a huge, diverse and exotic world, that gives loads of ideas to DMs)

  • The Deaths of Mystra, Tyr, Azuth, Gorm Gulthyn, Haela Brightaxe and Mask

  • The addition of Nathlan (Personally don't like seeing Kara-Turan stuff in the middle of Faerun)

  • The Dragonborn countries (doubt these will be removed)

  • The Genasi taking over countries (like Calimshan, portions of Chessenta)

  • The "Spellnuking" of Halruaa and Lantan, and presumably Nimbral

  • The destruction of Zhentil Keep (Long live the Zhentarim!)

  • The destruction of half of Chessenta, a large portion of the Shaar, Chondath, Hlondeth, Sespech, Altumbel and the Wizard's Reach

  • Evermeet porting away to another plane

  • Thay turning into an undead country, thus marking the end of the original Red Wizards

  • Arkaiuns managing to conquer all of Dambrath, and apparently meaning the end of the Crinti? (huge Crinti and Dambrath fan. A shame to see this pseudo-drow surface nation killed :( )

  • Luiren and Var the Golden "sinking"? (though never much a fan of Luiren, it served a role as a homeland for halflings)

  • Fall of House Jaelre and the other Vhaeraunian drow surface clans, due to Vhaeraun's death

  • Death of all the Dark Seldarine deities with the exception of Lolth and Ghaunadaur (This is a huge blow for the drow fans who liked other Dark Seldarine deities. I loved playing Vhaeraunites :( )

  • Death of the Duergar deities, Laduguer and Deep Duerra (huge blow for duergar fans, as these deities served an important role in defining culture of the duergars)

  • Unther and Mulhorand vanishing (I know some people don't like seeing historical allegories in FR, but I loved these nations. They are really unique)

  • FR gods actually being *this* and *that* god, through aspects, i.e. lumped together (like Talos really being Gruumsh, etc)

  • It seems like near Ruathym, the isle of Axard, the nation of "sea" dwarves, and the isle of Nerth is gone from the Spellplague map. Are these places deliberately gone?


  • What I would personally like to see in the new Realms:
  • Some effort to repair the listed dislikes, of course

  • As many sourcebooks as 2nd edition got! (2nd edition's got loads. 4E only has 4 FR sourcebooks to the best of my knowledge)

  • Bigger and more detailed Realms, and perhaps expanded Realms with new nations and perhaps new culture groups

  • Return of Bhaal and Myrkul (somehow, please find an excuse to bring the return of these awesome gods! :p )

  • More deities rather than less (and deities having more aspects and unique cultural names would be really cool, such as with Talos being known as Bhaelros in Calimshan, etc)

  • More of the less known/obscure Underdark cities detailed properly (like Guallidurth, supposedly the biggest drow city. Dusklyngh, V'eldrinnsshar, Ullin'Tharnor, etc)

  • More defined Orcish realms, like that of Dark Arrow Keep. Would have been great to see a homeland for the Grey Orcs as well, and cities in the Underdark for the Orogs

  • More monster realms

  • More info on obscure countries like Murghom and Semphar

  • The Old Empires back, and made more unique (technically covered by the first item listed here, but I just wanted to emphasise it, as I loved these places)

  • The Utter East properly detailed in a sourcebook, and made into a real part of Faerun

  • The Hordelands made less Tuigan dominated and more fragmented for different faction ideas

  • An Eldreth Veluuthra realm (and perhaps deity as well) for the elven supremacists would have been awesome

  • A Fey'ri demon-worshipping realm (even though they were quite weakened in 4E)

  • The Masked Brigades managing to create a Vhaeraunian drow kingdom in Cormanthor. The Vhaeraunite cities in the Forest of Mir also turned proper realms.

  • For Dambrath: A Crinti survivor state (perhaps Prastuil or Maarlith), a Gnoll kingdom in the Gnollwatch Mountains, fully independent pirate towns in the Hethar Peninsula, while the rest is divided between Arkaiun clans

  • More info and refinement of Ruathym, Gundarlun & the other Northlander isles (4E sourcebooks said very little of the condition of these isles after the Spellplague)

  • The Northlander realms in the Moonshae Isles going independent (would be cooler if Norland, Norheim Isles, Gnarhelm, Korinn Archipelago return their old warmaking and piratey ways, as a result of the Moonshae Isle's weakening in 4E)

  • More info and refinement of the Great Glacier (Also would be neat to see Snow Elves being made into a proper subrace of elves)

  • A realm for the "redeemed" dark elves (I'm guessing though it would be clear they're not an evil race, they'd still face some level of ostracism from other elven subraces)


  • Venger's List:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Venger



    1) Mystra: She absolutely has to come back. I’m glad to hear that Ed’s working on it. My hope, though, would be for it to be the Midnight personality. I was a bit appalled by that plot point not just because they killed off Mystra, the flagship character of the setting, but that it was done in that manner. The whole scenario reeked of a bad Lifetime movie in which a man obsessed with a woman breaks into her home and murders her. It seems cheap and it made Mystra seem weak and pathetic as she was essentially butchered by her stalker. Mystra/Midnight coming back and paying Cyric back in kind would be nice (Though that doesn’t mean I want Cyric dead. I can’t stand the little turd but he still does make a pretty good setting villain). I'd like to see her rebuild Dweomerheart, reconstitute the Weave and either bring Azuth back along with her, or elevate a mortal to take his place as an Exarch in her service. Maybe Elminster, the Simbul, or even Alustriel can fill the role?

    (That’s another one that gets me, killing Alustriel. She’s not a big time adventurer, but a city ruler. She’s about as innocuous an NPS as you can get, so I don’t see why they felt they had to kill her to appease Forgotten Realms haters.)

    2) Helm: If you’re working on his return, then that’d be great, too. I look forward to seeing him take his place in Celestia in Torm’s service.

    3) Nobanion: This is coming out of left field I know, but whatever happened to this guy? I was just reminded of him while writing the above. I wouldn’t mind seeing him also enter into Torm’s service and move to Celestia. He seems like he’d be a great fit there. The way I’d like to see the organization of Celestia is as follows: Torm, Bahamut, and Ilmater forming the Triad, with Torm (Greater God) as the top point and Bahamut and Ilmater (Gods) as the two bottom points, while Helm and Nobanion are the sword and standard of Torm.

    Now if only Celestia wasn’t such a sausage fest. Damn that Siamorphe…

    4) Lathander: Here’s why I think combining him with Amaunator is silly. The idea is that there’s a Sun God and he goes through different phases, and we’ve seen those phases being Dawn, Midday, and Dusk. And since Lathander and Amaunator didn’t coexist, then they must be the same, but in a different phase. The problem with that is that neither of them have ever been a God of Dusk. That was Myrkul, and he and Lathander coexisted for a long time just fine. The argument would make sense if he was all three, but he’s not. He’s two phases while some other guy was the third. So he bounces back and forth between God of Dawn and God of Midday? That doesn’t make much sense at all. On top of which they’re both completely different personalities. So in my opinion, Lathander should be brought back as a separate god. In addition…

    5) Myrkul: Myrkul should be brought back, too. He’ll no longer be God of the Dead but he can still reclaim the rest of his Portfolios of Autumn, Corruption, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old Age, Parasites, and Wasting. He can also claim Velsharoon’s old Portfolios of Necromancy and Undeath now that that poor bastard’s bitten the dust. Myrkul’s an interesting personality and frankly I’ve missed him all these years and I’d love to see his triumphant return and have him build a new Castle of Bones somewhere out in the Astral Sea. I’m also linking him up to Lathander above because I think that they, along with Amaunator, can create an interesting dynamic. Sun gods have been done to death, and having a generic “sun god” for the setting isn’t doing the Forgotten Realms any favors, but if you were to have three sun gods, each of which represents a different phase of the sun, dawn, midday, and dusk? Think of what each means, and what each god would represent.

    Lathander is the Dawnbringer, the sun that rises in the morning, which means that he represents new beginnings, a casting off of the past, and constant change and evolution. He’s the ever-changing universe and the newborn star blazing out in the black. Amaunator is the God of Midday, and represents stability, stagnancy, and the status quo. He’s a sun in the full power of its life, set in its ways. Myrkul is the Lord of Dusk and represents the forces of entropy, decay, and the end of all things. He’s the lifeless star within a universe which grows ever colder. Each of those, Dawn, Midday and Dusk represent something wholly different, and I think the Forgotten Realms could benefit from having a trio of gods who represent each and are constantly in opposition to each other because of their natures.

    6) Mask: His return’s a must. And let him have the Portfolio of Intrigue, already. Given what I’ve read the past few days about the circumstances of his death, he definitely deserves it, especially since he’s much better at it than Cyric. Has Cyric ever gotten away with any of his intrigues? And should Myrkul be brought back I’m sure he’d be willing to let Mask have a piece of his domain where he can hang his hat in and be safe from both Cyric and Shar.

    7) Bhaal: This one’s another personal wish of mine. I’ve always loved “the Dead Three”, and Bane’s already back, so how about giving Realms fans back the full set? Make him an Exarch at least in service to Myrkul if he ever comes back, or Bane.

    8) Eilistraee & Vhaeraun: I understand the argument about wanting to get the Drow back to their roots, but the problem with that is that getting them back to their roots is also synonymous with making them a one-note caricature. Eliminating these two gods eliminated all the character growth which the Drow as a race had experienced. There’re plenty of ways to make the Drow more villainous, but at the same time, that doesn’t mean that the variety of portrayals which they had should be obliterated. So personally I’d really like to see both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun return.

    Incidentally, isn’t 1484 The Year of the Awakened Sleepers? If one wants to claim that the ‘dead’ gods are sleeping, then that might be a good year to bring them back.

    9) Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim: I’d like to see these go back to the way they were and with Manshoon at the helm. It’d be nice if Manshoon were to reassert control of the Zhentarim in a Godfather style St. Valentine’s Day Massacre scenario in which he eliminates all potential rivals to the Zhentarim and remakes them into the wizard led army/secret organization for advancing his interests and Zhentil Keep’s interests around the world, and uses them to retake and rebuild Zhentil Keep. An alliance between a rebuilt Zhentil Keep, the Dalelands, Myth Drannor, and Cormyr against Netheril would also be pretty nice. Like the Soviet Union in the Allies versus the Axis. Team up with an evil to fight against an even greater evil. That’d open up a ton of intrigue as they need Zhentil Keep, but at the same time they can’t trust them, particularly Manshoon.

    10) Elturgard: Just a bugaboo I had after reading the book, but it’d be nice to see Elturgard explicitly stated as being dedicated to Amaunator. Torm doesn’t make sense at all given all the other circumstances of that country.

    11) Halruaa & Lantan: Was there ever an explanation for why the highly magical nation of Halruaa was torched to the ground by the Spellplague while the highly magical nation of Netheril escaped its effects unscathed? Anyway…

    I like the idea of the Halruaan’s rescuing the Lantanese and the two nations joining forces to found a new country. It’s possible that Halruaan skyships came across Lantan just as disaster was striking them and were able to rescue a large portion of their population. The alliance between the survivors of Halruaa and Lantan could also be the origin of Warforged in the Forgotten Realms. They would’ve needed an army to survive, and with their depleted populations, the only option they’d have would be to manufacture one. The Lantanese already sort of had this ability in 3E with the Techsmiths able to create Gondsmen. Combining their expertise with that of the incredible magical knowledge possessed by the Halruaan’s that should give them what they need to be able to come up with Warforged, which is what their standing army could currently consist of.

    As for their current location, your guess is as good as mine. It’s been 100 years, though, so they still shouldn’t be wandering Faerun like refugees a la Battlestar Galactica. They should’ve already found somewhere to call home and already be settled there. After all, the ancestors of the Five Companies may not be the only Halruaan’s who escaped the devastation of Halruaa. To continue the Battlestar Galactica analogy, maybe the Five Companies were the Battlestar Pegasus equivalents while there were another group of Halruaan survivors who were the Battlestar Galactica and Colonial fleet equivalents, and they were the ones who saved the Lantanese and settled elsewhere?

    And yes, I’d love to read a novel about that.

    12) Mulhorand & Unther: Mulhorand was fantastic and characterful and I’m dumbfounded that the developers ever thought it’d be a good idea to get rid of it. It was also on the cusp of conflict with all its neighbors in 3E, including Thay, and that was suddenly swept away with the advent of 4E? Like the commenter on that video link I posted above said, the game opportunities not only narrowed as a result, but flattened as the conflict between Mulhorand and the Red Wizards never occurred with Mulhorand being whisked away while the Red Wizards were all turned into undead loyal to Szass Tam. As for what’s going on with Abeir, I have to be honest and say that I don’t particularly care. That’s a whole other campaign world, and as a fan of the Forgotten Realms, it’s Faerun and its immediate environs which interest me.

    So in short, I’d like to see Mulhorand return, and the seeds of that possibility are right there in the 4E FRCG. Nezram the Worldwalker is a wizard who’s A) experienced at planar travel, B) loves his country, and C) hates the High Imaskari to pieces. It shouldn’t be too much trouble for him to be able to track down Abeir and what happened to Mulhorand and its people. So he has the ability to provide planar travel and can work the necessary magic to bring Mulhorand back. There’s also the Mulhorandi gods themselves, who’ve long shown an interest in looking after and protecting the Mulhorandi people. They’re not just going to take this disaster which has hit their people lying down, particularly if the Mulhorandi people want to go back home (and after being there for four thousand years, Toril is their home). Nevermind how the people might react once they find out that the Imaskari have moved into their lands (Like Nezram, they’ll probably also believe that it was an Imaskari plot, so they’ll definitely want some payback). So while Nezram can provide the means for them to go home, the Mulhorandi gods and their legions of clerics can provide the power to make that transition possible.

    So between Nezram and whatever other means he discovered should he have found that race of serpent men he was looking for, the Mulhorandi gods, as well as anything the Mulhorandi might have found on Abeir, it's possible they could be able to bring their civilization back to Faerun, with all the peoples from both Unther and Mulhorand. Five million pissed off Mulhorandi (and possibly an army of those serpent people that Nezram was looking for) descend on the Imaskari and drive them down into Deep Imaskar, with High Imaskar perhaps able to maintain a small portion of land while the Mulhorandi reconquer most of the rest. The Dragonborn in Tymanther are able to repel the Mulhorandi presence within their borders but are left with a couple million Untherite refugees begging for asylum and safety from the Mulhorandi. The end result is that Mulhorand is back and is in a cold war state with both Deep Imaskar beneath its feet (and possibly what's left of High Imaskar on the surface) and Tymanther to its west, which is left reeling after having suddenly absorbed millions of refugees.

    13) Luiren: I’d like to see those plucky little Halflings get a new nation. Just because Halflings are nomads in the core setting that doesn’t mean the same has to hold true in Forgotten Realms. The little blighters deserve to have a new homeland.

    14) Thay: It’d be nice if WotC were to pull back from talking about how the undead ridiculously outnumber the living. Szass Tam isn’t an idiot. You need living people to create new undead, and if most of your people are already undead then your numbers can only go down as your undead servants are destroyed and you don’t have enough living people to replace them. Moreover, one of the things that made Thay interesting was their variety in magical power, with each Zulkir representing a different school of magic. You might thwart the plans of a Red Wizard of Necromancy in one adventure, in which you confront his undead minions, but in another adventure you might deal with the illusory power of an Illusionist Red Wizard. That variety was nice, as was the power play between the various Zulkir’s. What’s not interesting is having all the Zulkir’s engage in necromancy, with Szass Tam the undisputed ruler of them all.

    So my preference would be for Thay to go back to being more like it was. Zulkir’s who represent different magical disciplines, and each of which is a potential threat to Szass Tam, and a Thayvan population in which the living constitute the majority. I want to see the Red Wizards as an organization reemerge, with Mulan children being taken in and trained as Red Wizards. And should Mulhorand come back then a couple hundred thousand of them could end up going over to Thay to help repopulate the living Mulan population. Either way, Thay as an Icecrown equivalent with Szass Tam in the role of the Lich King is just not a good idea. Making the Red Wizards all about necromancy all the time is just plain boring.

    As for their magical diversity, I have no idea how to handle that. It really depends on the magical rules in 5E. Will schools of magic come back? If they do then the answer is easy, as you could go back to how it was with a Zulkir for Necromancy, Illusion, Conjuration, etc. But if not, then there’re other options which could potentially be pursued. Maybe the Red Wizards are changed to account for other magical traditions beyond Wizard magic? Perhaps you can have a Zulkir who represents Swordmages, another who represents Warlocks, and one who represents Sorcerers? Then there’s the Zulkir of Wizards, the Zulkir of Necromancers (Szass Tam), and Zulkir’s representing any other magical traditions which exist in D&D 5E. That’s a possibility, although I’d prefer the traditional schools of magic (One way to handle that could potentially be through themes. Maybe a Forgotten Realms supplement could include "Illusionist", "Conjuerer", "Enchanter" themes which can be applied to Wizards to give them more of a specialist wizard flavor, thus allowing for Red Wizards as they were to return in some way).

    So yeah, it’d be nice if Thay were to be put back on track to what it was. And if Mulhorand were to reappear, I’d love to see an escalation of conflict between the two, which would pit Thay’s magical might against Mulhorand’s divinely fueled power. I want to see a battle in which Wizards, Necromancers, and Swordmages duke it out with Clerics, Invokers, and Avengers.

    15) Villains: I'm tired of all Shades, all the time. There should be an attempt to elevate all the villains of the Realms equally, instead of making everything about Netheril, the Shades, and Shar. Make Thay a major threat again, bring back Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim and make them a major threat again, and so on. Put lots of emphasis on the activities of all the major evil gods, Shar, Cyric, Bane, Lolth, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, and hopefully Myrkul. The more the merrier because variety is what makes things interesting. The Shar Show is boring. The Shar, Bane, Cyric, Myrkul, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, & Lolth Show, however, would be a damn fine show to watch. Make them and their plots constant threats which have to be dealt with at all times, along with those threats posed by the Red Wizards, Netheril, the Cult of the Dragon, and more, and it'd be a very interesting setting.

    16) Abeir: …can go pound sand. No interest in seeing it explored.

    Anyway, that’s what I have for now. I’m sure I’ll think up more later on.




    quote:
    Originally posted by Venger

    DISLIKE: Treatment of Heroic NPC's

    We've all heard this argument before. People have a hard time getting into the Realms because there're so many epic heroic NPC's zooming around and they do all the important stuff, and you can't run a campaign without running into them. So half of them needed to be killed off/depowered/driven insane in order to make the 4E Forgotten Realms work.

    I don't think that's the case, though. The issue isn't the number or power of heroic NPC's in the Forgotten Realms, but rather, the lack of equally powerful villainous NPC's in the Forgotten Realms. For instance, when someone plays a Marvel Super-Heroes RPG you never hear complaining about that. Why? Because every hero has a sizeable Rogues Gallery which they're forced to deal with. So let's say that your PC's in that supers game are fighting Venom. Nobody ever asks "Where's Spider-Man?" because it's understood that Spider-Man's probably somewhere else fighting Dr. Octopus, Electro, the Shocker, the Lizard, Tombstone, Sandman, Kingpin, etc. No group ever asks where the X-Men are when they're fighting Magneto because they're probably off fighting the Sentinels, the Reavers, the Marauders, Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse, the Imperial Guard, Arcade, or any number of other enemies. Those are worlds which are DEFINED by the number of heroic NPC's they have, and they work just fine as campaign settings because, for every heroic NPC, there's a large number of villainous NPC's, most of whom are just as powerful as the hero they regularly combat.

    That, I think, is the lesson which the Forgotten Realms needs to take away. Not that they have to sideline their heroes, weaken them, or not stat them up, but put more emphasis on producing a more indepth field of villains. For instance, here's a list of the ten most powerful heroes in the FRCS versus the 10 most powerful villains in the same book (Note: I'm using CR and not level as the measure of their power).

    HEROES
    39 Elminster
    36 The Simbul
    32 Storm Silverhand
    31 Khelben “Blackstaff” Arunsun
    28 Alustriel
    18 Drizzt Do’Urden
    17 Ningal
    15 Caladnei
    13 Mirt
    10 Alusair Obarskyr

    VILLAINS
    31 Szass Tam
    30 Halaster Blackcloak
    25 Klauth: Dragon of the North
    25 Manshoon
    23 Fzoul Chembryl
    22 Hadrhune
    18 Artemis Entreri
    18 Gerti Orelsdottr
    17 Semmemon
    15 Scyllua Darkhope

    The four most powerful heroes are either equal in power to the most powerful villain, or they vastly eclipse him in power. Now look at this list from the 2nd edition Heroes Lorebook and Villains Lorebook.

    HEROES
    30 The Simbul
    29 Elminster
    27 Khelben “Blackstaff” Arunsun
    25 Laeral Silverhand
    24 Alustriel Silverhand
    22 Storm Silverhand
    20 King Azoun IV Obarskyr
    20 Cadderly
    20 Gwydion
    18 Durnan

    VILLAINS
    30 Halaster Blackcloak
    29 Szass Tam
    20 Maligor, Zulkir of Alteration
    19 Cyndre
    19 Manshoon
    18 Deirdre Kendrick
    18 Flattery Wyvernspur
    18 King Manferic III
    17 Jarlaxle
    16 Fzoul Chembryl

    The power disparity between the most powerful heroes and villains is even more visible there. Only three of the villains are Level 20 or above while all of the heroes save for one is Level 20 and above. So looking at both of those lists it's easy to imagine a world where the heroic NPC's are able to solve any problem on their own with no help from the PC's when the most wellknown villains are no match for them. How can we not expect Elminster to be able to solve all the world's problems when his CR is 14 higher than Manshoon in 3E, and he's 10 levels higher in 2E?

    The levels of the villains also has a domino effect in that many of them are leaders in various evil organizations, so their level provides a hard cap on the levels of the members of those organizations. For example, if Manshoon is Level 19 then you can't have any natives of Zhentil Keep or members of the Zhentarim who're above Level 19. If they exist, then why aren't they running the show? You can't have any members of the Church of Bane who're above Level 16. If they exist, then why is it that they're not in charge instead of Fzoul? Yeah, there're always exceptions to that rule as to why epic level villains might be serving Level 16 and Level 19 villains, but you can't sustain a campaign heading into the epic levels with villains who constantly serve as the exception to the rule.

    IMO, the solution to that is pretty easy. Introduce new powerful enemies and upgrade already existing villains to match up to their heroic counterparts. As a general rule of thumb, there should be two named villains of roughly equal power for every named hero. For instance, let's say this is the list of the most powerful heroes.

    HEROES
    30 The Simbul
    29 Elminster
    27 Khelben “Blackstaff” Arunsun
    24 Alustriel Silverhand
    22 Storm Silverhand

    The list of the most powerful villains could then look something like this (Note: It doesn't have to be an exact correlation, level-per-level, two villains per every one hero. This is just a simple example).

    VILLAINS
    30 Halaster
    30 Szass Tam
    29 Manshoon
    29 Fzoul Chembryl
    27 Klauth: Dragon of the North
    27 High Prince Telamont Tanthul
    24 Scyllua Darkhope
    24 The Pereghost
    22 Semmemon
    22 Hadrhune

    Like I said, just an example, and not a hard and fast rule. Telamont should be at least 30, and IMO the Zulkirs should be brought back and they should almost all be epic level and close to Szass Tam's level, and that's for starters.

    Point is, a large and powerful rogues gallery presents numerous possibilities. For one, expanding the number of villains and their power likewise expands story possibilities. That's a far better choice then cutting down on the number of heroic NPC's, which only eliminates story possibilities. Secondly, it eliminates the issue which many felt was a problem with the Forgotten Realms, which was heroic NPC's being the only people that matter. The message with NPC's in 2E and 3E to the PC's was "We don't really need your help because we can blow away these guys all on our own and then some, so go back to shoveling cow dung in Shadowdale." But by increasing the powers of existing villainous NPC's and introducing new ones, having them outnumber the heroic NPC's, the message to PC's instead becomes "We're barely holding the line here, and need your help bad, so hurry up and become epic level, already!"

    That's one of the many things I hope to see in 5E. Not a setting which runs away from its heroic NPC's and tries to sideline them as often as possible, but which instead embraces them and creates worthy adversaries not only for them but for the PC's as well.



    quote:
    Originally posted by Venger

    I have something to add to the Wish List: WotC making it official company policy that any game designer who creates a new race which has any of the following suffixes will be severely beaten with a rubber hose.

    -born
    -folk
    -man/men

    No more -born, -folk, or -man/men races, please.



    combatmedic's List:

    quote:
    Originally posted by combatmedic

    There are some great ideas in the newest version of FR, but some stuff just doesn’t work for me.

    Let’s run down the big stuff first.

    • 100 year leap:
    Given everything else they changed, it makes perfect sense. I see the advtanage in moving past a lot of the accumulated canon plots and NPcs. More on this much later in the post…
    • Spellplague and Mystra’s death:
    It goes a long way towards explaining the pretty significant changes in the way magic works in 4E. It also spins off the wild magic and dead magic zones ideas, building something new. Kills a bunch of really potent spell casters, which is fine by me—FR had too many of those guys.
    I don’t know the particulars of how Cyric and Shar managed to kill Mystra. I understand that some people find the details implausible. Without more info, I can’t really comment.

    • Other gods dying:
    I don’t like what they did with Helm and Tyr. Sorry, I just don’t buy the whole love triangle and duel thing. It seems forced and out of character. I would not use it if I ran a game using 4E FR.
    Azuth getting gobbled up by Asmodeus is kind of interesting. I’m not sure why they did it, though, unless they just felt that Asmodeus had to be in the setting. Why not the other 4E gods, then?

    • Gods turning out to be aspects of other gods:
    The basic idea is fine, but they did more of it than I’d have done. Some of it felt forced. Realms already had regional names and aspects: Melith (if he is Milil, that is), The Earthmother, Kazgoroth the Beast, the Adama, Anachtyr, etc. They could have simply done more of that.
    • Exarchs:
    The idea is sensible and not really new, but the nomenclature is bizarre. I never understood why an East Roman title was used for what are essentially just demigods or lesser deities. I keep thinking of the Exarch of Ravenna. Do the gods all dress in ‘Byzantine’ court robes? Is Ao the heavenly Autocrat?
    This gives me some ideas for Chessenta…

    • Cosmology shift:
    This change is really easy to ignore unless you are running high level, plane hopping type adventures. I see why they wanted to make things line up better with the default 4E cosmology. That makes it easier for new guys who came in with 4E and are used to the way the planes are assumed to work in that rules set.
    I like the Great Tree. I’d have kept that. Gotta have the Nine Hells, though. Greenwood’s articles on the Hells are solid gold.


    • Returned Abeir:
    My biggest problem with this one is somewhat pedantic. Abeir Toril means “cradle of life.” That is the very first entry in the Cyclopedia, for goodness sakes. I don’t like that this old and cool canon lore was ignored, and Abeir was introduced as a separate planet.
    I’m okay with the ‘When Worlds Collide’ idea. I likely wouldn’t have blown up or transposed quite as many parts of Faerun, but I would have used the returned Abeir stuff even more heavily outside Faerun.
    Does anybody know how Abeir fits in with Realsmpace? Did they retcon out all the Spelljammer stuff? I’m not heavily invested in SJ, so this isn’t a complaint. I’m just curious.

    Now, on to other geographical and political stuff:
    • Halruua blown up. Cool. I like the Five Companies.
    • Sembia conquered by Shade; it’s not my cup of tea, but a Sembian Revolution and a restored republic afterward would be cool in 5E.
    • Luiren sinking and Var no more. Cool by me. Diving for sunken treasure!
    • Dambrath revolution with Crinti out of power. I like it, at least from what little I know of it.
    • Return of ancient imperial civilizations- I rather liked these things being deeper in the background. It’s not a deal breaker for me, though.


    In regards to NPCs, the dead and the living:

    • Why didn’t they just go ahead and kill Elminster? It would have made a lot more sense. If the massive setting changes were meant to clear the floor for fans that dislike the scads of meddlesome ultra-high powered NPCs and complex metaplot, then they should have started at the top.
    They should have whacked all the Chosen and the Seven Sisters, too. Go whole hog.

    • Mirt the Moneylender gets saved by some sort of tricky Greenwood moves. Whoa, I didn’t know about this one. Till I read a previous poster’s comments. You know what—I’m cool with it.
    Mirt sounds like a really fun NPC. A creak, wheezy fat old fighter , like Sir John Falstaff but with moneybags? That’s great stuff! I’m not saying all heads should have rolled. If I had a choice between saving Mirt and Eliminster, Mirt would win, no contest.



    Gyor's List:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Gyor

    The things I liked from 4e that I liked about the realms that I hope carry over to 5e.

    1. Abolethic Sovergienty, especially the capitol city of Xxipu.

    2. Feywild

    3. New Races from 4e

    4. As seen in my thread Ardents and Vrylokas (which count as number three)

    5. Primal Spirits

    6. The Beastlands

    7. Warlock Knights of the Vaast

    8. Primordials

    9. Spellscarred even though I'd like most of the plague lands gone.

    10. That Paladins are no longer restricted to certain lawful Neutral Lawful/Lawful Good/Neutral Good Gods and Sune, and that Blackguards don't have to be evil.

    Things I'm looking forward to coming back or gaining.

    1. Mulhorand
    2. Unther
    3. The Gods
    4. The Death of the term Exarch
    5. Rebuilding of many distroyed areas and cities
    6. The Sundering novels
    7. Proper Aasmir (none Devas not I don't like Devas, I just didn't like them eatting Aasmir)
    8. Proper Archons and an explaination about the weird name sharing thing.
    9. Ditto Eldrin
    10. The other contineints back, like Matezica.

    Some of that maybe wishful thinking, like Aasmir and Archons.




    Aryalómë's List:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Aryalómë

    J'aime:
    • The Eladrin, though I wouldn't want them to BE Eladrin. I prefer the celestial Eladrin. I don't want them to be ancestors or related to the Elves as 4e has them. Why not make them into immortal faerie nobility like the Sidhe/Shee in some 3rd party sourcebooks?

    • The AEDU spell type for spell casting classes.

    • The Warlock, Witch, Invoker, and a few other classes that were present in this edition.

    • The larger number of attack spells that spell casters had.

    • The not-so-much helplessness of spellcasters.

    • The new Tiefling look and origin (though they could also be brought about by fiendish union as well).

    • The Devas.

    • The Vrylokas.

    • The new Necromancy spells and Nethermancy.

    • New fae themed spells and powers.

    • The greater focus on fae.

    • The slight Planescape feel.

    • 4e's Shadar-kai.

    • Some of the deities present in the base 4e game: The Raven Queen, Ioun, that dead daughter of Zephyr, Erathis (though I despise that she wants to conquer nature and constantly build empires), Melora (a good antagonist of Erathis).


    Je deteste:
    • The restructuring of the Realms.

    • The deicide of the gods we loved.

    • The overall artwork.

    • The fact that WotC is trying to make it more like an MMO.

    • The pruned alignment system. (I hate the alignment system overral, but the even more difficult pruned one is ridiculous).

    • The Genasi. I hate their new look. Akanul is interesting, but I hate how they look now. The Stormsoul Genasi is unneeded; we have the Air Genasi for that. Their origins could be similar to the Tieflings in that they could have also been spawned by elementals taking human lovers and others coming from the Elemental planes.

    • The continued censorship of WotC.

    • The over-simplified rules and lore. LAME.

    • The non existence of the Ffolk and Northlanders. Basically, they couldn't handle having these two hate each other to death and so decided to make them all half breeds. *rage*

    • The destruction of over half of Faerun do the the Spellplague.

    • The whole Spellplague in general.

    • The destruction of Zhentil Keep. I hate the Zhents, but STILL.

    • Evermeet switching planes.

    • [*]Deities becoming "aspects" of other deities.


    My dislike list may not seem long, but it in fact covers much that has been done-like an umbrella of events, if you will.



    Tarlyn's List:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Tarlyn

    Here you go deserk, this is the best I can come up with since I no longer have a 4e CS to reference. I imagine I am missing a thing or two, but it is at least reflective of my overall opinion.

    4e realms the good
    -Return of Imaskar - It would be very interesting to see Imaskar take a place on the world stage and see what plans the Imaskari have for Faerun. Also, seeing Imaskar interacting with a Mulhorand and Unther as well as the many other world powers(Thay, Shade, Cormyr, Cormanthyr)
    -Warlock knights of Vaasa - I don't remember anything about them, but at least there was one attempt to add a power group rather than just subtract them
    -The CS cover art was pretty awesome - This is here mostly to pad the good list, but I did really like that Shade

    4e realms the bad
    -Destruction of the weave
    -retconning in the Dawn War
    -gloomy atmosphere and defeatist attitude the setting now contains
    -Loss of defining magical traditions(spell schools,elven high magic, ciricle magic, shadow magic, spellfire, the red wizard dual specializations, Mythals)
    -Focus on making magic users feared. Realms was and should be the setting that magic is viewed with awe. Leave casters being feared to Dragonlance, Ravenloft and Darksun
    -Death of Mystra, Helm, Mask, Eilistraee
    -Lathander transforming into Amaunator
    -Loss of world wide trading
    -Loss of power groups
    -Setting populated exclusively by low-leveled npcs
    -death of many of the high level immortal good aligned npcs(for that matter high level npcs in general)
    -spell plague
    -Merging of Deities
    -Racial Pantheons disappearing
    -Loss of Halruaa, Evermeet, Nimbral, Lantan, Luiren, Dambrath
    -Thay becoming zombie land
    -Calimshan becoming the land of the gensai
    -Obould's WOW style orc kingdom inserted in the middle of the Silver Marshes
    -Hordes of Dragonborn,Gensai and Tieflings (gensai and tieflings were well represented in 3e and Dragonborn reskinned as half-dragons can work fine)
    -retcon of the Eladrin, Archons, Devas
    -shrinking of the sea of fallen stars
    -addition of giant rifts of dead space on the map
    -the new moonsea and loss of the Zhentarim
    -addition of the call of cthulhu elements
    -100 year time gap (The only real problem I had was the design teams refusal to make new npcs, the issue for me with the time gap is it killed all the people that brought the setting to life.
    If the design team just created new rulers, archmages, nobles, inn keepers, mercenary captains, caravan masters, street sweepers etc. It would not have been as much of a problem)
    -Epic destinies
    -4e cosmology
    -MMO style zoning (i.e Neverwinter is a lvl 1- 10 area along with most of the rest of the setting, high level stuff is done on other planes.
    In previous editions major cities like Neverwinter and Waterdeep could easily support lvls 1-how ever high your DM was willing to go.)
    -Returned Abeir (It would be fine if it was relocated to not take up existing real estate)

    4e realms the indifferent
    -The removal of the real world ports like Mulhorand, Maztica etc is not really a deal breaker, I agree it wasn't the best idea to add them in 2e edition. However, their replacements lacked depth and from what I can tell despite 4 years of published novels, no author was able to convince WotC to base anything in them. Furthermore, most of their replacements were added in an annoying manner and the only two noteworthy ones are just added to give core 4e races a "homebase". Which IMO isn't a much better reason than people wanting to have various real world style areas. Also, Maztica does seem to have a small, but extremely loyal fanbase(which I am not part of, just to clarify). Finally, Mulhorand by itself is not particularly interesting IMO. However, its interactions with Thay were and now the possible interactions with Imaskar could be.
    -Shade ruling Sembia is interesting, I could go either way with that one
    -feywild and the shadowfell, I like both ideas in core, but the shadowfell doesn't really fit my vision of realms(I like necromancy to be more like 2e editions Complete Necromancer's handbook). I think the feywild could be kept.

    5e hopes (correct all of the 4e the bad, I have highlighted a few of those points again below)
    -Restoring all of the missing deities, magicial traditions, lands, unmerging the deities and doing something with Calimshan's genie horde
    -My suggestion for Lathander and Amaunator would be having the deities be more regionally based and have a rivalry between. For instance, Halruaa, Thay and Imaskar would all acknowledge the older Amaunator. Younger nations like the Dales and Cormyr have a stronger Lathander presence. Places like Sembia, Cormanthyr and Waterdeep have intense rivalry between these two faiths.
    -Thay; If I remember right, the old red wizards control what use to be the wizard's reach. I would like to see them start to reconquer Thay. However, over a hundred years some of Thay's darker deeds might not be remember and Old Thay kind of idealized by its descendants. The group of conquering Zulkirs should lean towards evil like the good olde days,
    but I would include a misguided idealistic group. This group could be people raised on the stories of Thay's fight for freedom against Mulhorand and a kind of nationalistic history that conviently forgets things like becoming free only to become Tyrants. Finally, an element of the conquering army could be composed of a crusade against the undead launched by the churches of Lathander, Amaunator and Kelemvor. This again adds an element of complexity to the new Thay and could be an interesting power group by itself.
    Again, I would have some of the more traditional good guy types in that Crusade. However, I would also have characters that's hatred of undead blind drives them more than their concern to protect the living. I would place 5e FR at a stalmate between Tam's forces and the reconquest.
    -Represent Halruaa and Shade as two successor states to Nethril and delve into both Halruaa's mastery of arcana magic and Shades shadow magic
    -Once Evermeet is restored as well as Everska, I would like to see Myth Drannor pursue Coronal Eltargrim's "Dream" and the city be home to many races and creeds. I would like it to start becoming that beacon of hope for all civilization in the realms that made it famous.
    -Along with the restoration of the old power groups, I would like to see some well thought out new power groups.
    -Bring back the influence of the Twist Rune throughout the southern sword coast
    -Return of some of the old npcs and add some new NPCs that are detailed in personality enough to bring life to the setting(you don't need stat blocks, but npcs add character to the setting and make it seem like it isn't just waiting to be saved by the PCs)
    -Imaskar had a pretty powerful magical tradition, they should be taking part in some of the events in the larger setting not just sitting around doing nothing. Think somekind of shadowy power group like Mass Effects 2 Cerebrus (allowing DMs to choose if their questionable activies are for good or evil or made just there own benefit).
    -Again adding new wrinkles to the setting is cool, but focus on creating stuff rather than just directly porting stuff from core whole cloth. Also, make sure anything added fits within the context of the setting, for instance Lightsabers are cool, but Realms doesn't need them.



    quote:
    Originally posted by Tarlyn

    Additional 5e hopes

    5e hopes
    -Vhaeraun and Eilistraee both should have experience some growing pains during the past hundred years. Redefining both deities a little to broaden their appeal. For instance, I would like to see it noted that Eilistraee goes with a little more rangery look and uses a bow again(still have swordmanship be her big thing, but she realizes that Lolth influenced her shot). Keep the dancing naked in moonlight glades as a clerical ritual, but allow Eilistraee a more feminist default appearance. Vhaeraun would be more interesting to me as a CN deity rather than CE. Maybe time spent merged with Eilistraee made him realize that it was his own cruelty that caused his bad relationship with Corellon Larethian. Also, in both cases the gender restrictions with divine casters should be removed. That way the drow have three distinct choices of deity CE, CN, CG.
    -Dambrath - secular drow controlled state. Dambrath should include half-drow and possibly Abeir refugee elves other races would be fine too. I would have the clerics of Vhaeraun, Eilistraee and Lolth all have influence in the region, but I would not have them with official power. A non-theocracy drow state is some thing that has never received a lot of attention in D&D. Also, it would be interesting to see how priestess of Lolth interact in a society that they do not control.
    [/quote]
    30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
    CorellonsDevout Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 21:49:24
    I am probably one of the few here who is going to miss having the gods as characters.

    In regards to the followers of E and V, it is really disappointing that WotC doesn't seem to want anything to do with them anymore. I've been dying for a follow-up to LP, but it doesn't look as though we are going to get it. Oh, maybe hints here and there, but it's back to "drow are evil, end of story".
    Irennan Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 21:22:01
    Actually (some) deities have been portrayed as childish creatures in the Realms, considering that the main reason of the Era of Upheval is that Ao let them smash things so that they could learn a lesson (also, look at the Spellplague and ToT)...

    Infighting among members of the clergy of the same deity is not always motivated by lack of understanding and do not necessarily imply ''mistery''.

    1)Shar's goal is known to be bringing the world to the ''still nothingness'' that was before creation (i.e. destroy it...). I'd be glad if this was only a facade tho, cause as it is now this sounds quite stupid. There might simply be a personal rivalry between the two followers you mentioned (this could be asked to ESdB, but the answer eould probably be NDA).

    2)Agreed about Mask, I like how he is portrayed in those books.

    3)The divine love triangle thingy made Helm and Tyr look quite clownish and not mystrious at all tbh. The threefold god heresy has potential tho.

    4)Beshaba has not exactly been on the spotlight (AFAIK), so she still has the mysterious touch.

    5)Lolth is quite obvious in her goals: 1) exterminate all elves 2)get the world to bow to her (her two mandates). She's an extremely vain character and even a minimal slight could cause her to ''cast down'' someone who was her chose a split second before. Sure she plots, deceives and so on, and all of this may make her look mysterious, but there's not much beyond that.

    6)Except that Corellon is the one who cursed ALL the dark elves both from Ilyhtiir and Miyeritar and their descendants, because the former ones apparently used magic powered by Lolth.

    He and the Seldarine didn't lift a finger to help his daughter, except when he had to get all the followers for himself. Also after that he hasn't done anything, appears to be ok with the idea of his followers kiling drow on sight and doesn't do anything to promote a non mindless approach to this matter.

    About the LP, tbh it is one of the worst offenders when it comes to obvious gods.

    Vhaearun recklessly trying to kill his sister in her own plane (which is in Arvandor) is out of character; Eilistraee's ''sacrifice'' (if so) is also out of character, because it implies turning her back to the vast majority of drow (also I don't see why she would give up with her quest by passing it to Corellon; and turning drow in wood elves without giving them choice is not something she would do. Many drow are proud of what they are, and her goal is to make them free to forge their own future, not reverting some random curse).

    Finally, the whole act of accepting to bet everything on a Lolth's game makes the Dark Seldarine look reckless and foolish.

    7)I don't know if the author put the deities on the spotlight by making the conflict obvious, but if not this is a cool approach.

    8)Well, this is actually weird.

    The majority of mortals in the Realms might have a poor understanding of the gods, but they have a record of being portrayed as obvious creatures in novels. That's why Wizards explictly said that it is their intention to move away from this approach.

    Lilianviaten Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 19:33:12
    quote:
    Originally posted by Aryalómë

    I hate all of this 'deicide'. It really p*sses me off so badly. It just makes the gods look weak. The gods need to be some sort of deus ex machina type of deal (if that makes any sense) and be made very mysterious and not having such widely understood behaviors. It's just bland and irritating.



    I'm going to disagree with you. The gods do not have widely known motivations. If they did, we wouldn't see so much infighting among clergy. I'll give you some examples to back up my point.

    1) Shar - in both Paul Kemp's "Cycle of Night" trilogy and Erik Scott de Bie's "Shadowbane" trilogy, Shar's servants are each other's greatest enemies. You even find one of them aiding a servant of Helm! In Kemp's books, 2 powerful entities are both 100% sure that they are Shar's Chosen.

    2) Mask - In Paul Kemp's "Erevis Cale" trilogy, it's quite apparent that his Chosen (he has a few) have no clue what Mask is planning or how they fit into it. Cale doesn't even like Mask, and openly defies him on a few occasions. From the released "The Godborn" excerpts, it's clear that Riven (who's been following Mask for well over 100 years) STILL doesn't know anything about Mask's wishes.

    3) Helm/Torm/Tyr - In the aforementioned "Shadowbane" trilogy, there is a lot of focus on the heresy of the Threefold God. By the end, there are 3 paladins who each think they are the Chosen of the Threefold God. Not only do we not find out which of them is correct, but nobody even knows which 3 gods make up this "Threefold God". Plus, most worshippers of Torm (the only 1 of the 3 still alive) believe them to be insane heretics.

    4) Beshaba - In the "Shadowbane" trilogy, we have 2 powerful priests working against each other, and each thinks they are the Chosen of Beshaba.

    5) Lolth - In the "Starlight and Shadows" trilogy, the "Legacy of the Drow" trilogy, and the "War of the Spider Queen" saga, we learn that no drow have the slightest idea what Lolth's plans are (outside of more evil and chaos). Even those who believe themselves to be in her highest favor could be outcast the very next day. After 2000 years of devout service, even Matron Yvonnel Baenre couldn't understand Lolth's ever changing wishes.

    6) Corellon Larethian - The ending of the "Lady Penitent" trilogy reveals that redemption of the drow has been a goal that he's worked toward for a long time. Now that the "non tainted" drow have been redeemed with the aid of Eilistraee, he's making a play for those still trapped in Lolth's web. Which of his followers could possibly have guessed that?

    7) Sseth and Set - The "House of Serpents" trilogy shows us that the yuanti are in bewilderment about what's going on with their gods. Outside of the sarrukh from Okoth, they don't even know who won the struggle between Set and Sseth. With Zehir now added into the mix ("Venom in Her Veins"), their faith is in disarray. Not a one of them can tell you who is granting their spells, or what plans their god has for their race.

    8) Selune - In Salvatore's "Road of the Patriarch", it's unclear why she had a whole order of rapist, pedophile priests in Calimport (or maybe it was Memnon?). It's unclear why Selune never sent her virtuous followers to deal with them, but they operated this way for at least 30 years.

    That's all I came come up with from novels that I remember, but if you investigate all the novels about the gods (and all the sourcebooks), you will find a number of heresies and conflict within religions. The gods are quite poorly understood, even by their most faithful disciples.
    Lothlos Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 15:44:56
    quote:
    Originally posted by Markustay

    I have but one, simple request...

    make me fall in love again.



    Like
    Aryalómë Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 14:41:47
    Yeah, pretty much what Markustay said. Although, I kind of have a much more discerning taste now and have a habit of comparing everything to The Elder Scrolls.
    Falstaffsrevenge Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 14:39:32
    Here here Markustay!
    daarkknight Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 13:44:00
    Where's the damn "like" button for this!

    quote:
    Originally posted by Markustay

    I have but one, simple request...

    make me fall in love again.

    Markustay Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 04:09:06
    I have but one, simple request...

    make me fall in love again.
    Aryalómë Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 22:24:01
    I hate all of this 'deicide'. It really p*sses me off so badly. It just makes the gods look weak. The gods need to be some sort of deus ex machina type of deal (if that makes any sense) and be made very mysterious and not having such widely understood behaviors. It's just bland and irritating.
    Chosen of Asmodeus Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 18:58:37
    Things I liked;

    Many-Arrows Existing
    Returned Abeir
    Asmodeus' godhood
    The end of the Blood War

    Things I didn't like;
    That they didn't do a damn thing with any of the above.

    Wishlist for 5e;
    That Many-Arrows rises to prominence
    That Asmodeus retains his godhood
    That Mystra dies again
    Aryalómë Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 15:59:46
    Oh yeah, can we get less obvious deities?
    Thauranil Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 14:38:28
    quote:
    Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

    Fans of manga and anime=me!! I have over 600 manga. Yup yup, such things I spend my money on XD


    Wow and I thought that I was a big fan of manga, still I am not too far behind at around 300 to 400 manga.
    Falstaffsrevenge Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 00:57:55
    I apologize, I know this is coming late. I have been away from Candlekeep and FR in general for the last 2-3 years. 5E has me hopeful, maybe even a little excited again. My responce, in regards to this old post, as to what do I wish for 5E? I would like to see more of the playful stories. I would like to have more stories about or like, Volothamp Geddarm's guides. More books like the murder mysteries, (i.e. Murder in Halruaa). Or stories of the god Mad Monkey. While these stories were mostly tongue in cheek. They provided an unique view of FR, from a difference prospective. Or maybe, I am one of the few that enjoyed those stories. Anyway that is my wish. For the lighter, happier FR where there is a happy ending and the bad guy has his comeupance.
    CorellonsDevout Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 05:01:52
    Fans of manga and anime=me!! I have over 600 manga. Yup yup, such things I spend my money on XD
    Wooly Rupert Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 00:44:11
    quote:
    Originally posted by Sightless

    OK, five minutes are up, What is carrot carrot?

    Yes, this probably go in Sightless's silly questions, but I am asking here.



    I'm guessing you're referring to an emoticon used above, consisting of two carets (C A R E T, not the vegetable). It is an inverted V, sometimes used to indicate a place where something should be inserted; there are also some letters (like the u in Faerûn) that have a caret over them.

    As an emoticon, it is a variant of the colon-parentheses combo used to denote a smiley face. From what I've seen, it sees more usage among fans of anime (Japanese animation), and I believe that the emoticon originates from anime and manga (Japanese comics).

    One thing I must ask, and I hope I'm not offending -- please feel free to ignore this, if I am, or if you prefer not to answer -- have you been blind since birth? I ask because some things would be easier to explain if you had seen them in the past...
    Sightless Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 20:43:42
    OK, five minutes are up, What is carrot carrot?

    Yes, this probably go in Sightless's silly questions, but I am asking here.
    sleyvas Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 17:35:57
    quote:
    Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

    Well, they could also be using small stories set in the past that detail events that were not considered "big" historically. I'm thinking of tales like Josediah Starym's descent into the Twisted Tower, Khelban Blackstaff's early years, and otehr such tales, here. Maybe a story about Halaster's rise? The tragic tale of Sammaster? Oh, we could get some GREAT novels and anthologies from this...



    Or they could detail things that may have been big historically, but you never really knew who was doing what. For instance, foundation of Thay, war between Imaskari and Mulan people, the fall of Raumathar and Narfell, the rise and fall of the theurgist adepts, etc....
    The Red Walker Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 16:27:02
    The more I read novels with able this in them, the more I hope they are one of the things never talked about again, if not disappeared altogether. Just don't see a point for them in the realms. If we need a "collective" I will take a good old illithid colony any day.
    Irennan Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 09:49:23
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mapolq

    quote:
    Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

    Mmm...not sure how I feel about that. I mean, we already HAVE those novels, and we'd know the outcome of the events. The even would have to be really interesting for me to read something set in the past era (such as the Crown Wars. That would be interesting).



    We have an entire world, surely there is an enourmous multiplicity of stories to be told. You can even tell stories set during events that were already covered, but giving new perspectives and detail (though I'd prefer exploring enterily new ground). I mean, one doesn't dismiss a good novel about the American Civil War because they know the Union is going to win.




    If the novel was focused on the war itself, I would easily dismiss it. If it told a story with the war as background context, then I could consider it. But at that point the Civil War and its outcome wouldn't really be so relevant (in terms of its influence on the enjoyability and maybe even the course of the events itself, depending on the story) for the story itself. Also, as it was said, it depends on the particular event considered.

    EDIT: spelling.
    Markustay Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 06:59:53
    quote:
    Originally posted by Mapolq

    quote:
    Originally posted by Markustay

    3) "Support for all eras" = this is the vaguest of all the ideas they are talking about. I am not sure how they can produce a single book useable by someone running a game in the Days of Thunder, and in 1485 DR. We keep hearing about certain articles on the DDi (which can only be read by folks who are already WotC fans), but the detractors can't see these to make any sort of comparison, so they aren't a useful reference. I think we will know precisely what they mean when Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms comes out, so hopefully this point will be clarified soon-enough.


    Can you clarify which articles you mean and what people are talking about them? I have a D&Di subscription, but I'm not up to date with all the stuff they publish. I haven't seen anything particularly enlightening about the "Support for all eras" on the little material I've read. But if you could point me to it, I'd be grateful. And I could relay my opinion, for what it's worth. I'm certainly not in the WotC camp where 4th edition D&D and (especially) 4th edition FR are concerned, so at least I won't be biased that way.
    I do not have DDi, but from what I understand, after the initial 'taboo' against back-filling in past lore, the restraints put on designers/authors eased-up, and we are now getting bits of the past sprinkled into 'current' articles (even before the 1e/2e/3e era). See the James Brother' Monument of the Ancients for an example of that.

    Originally the plan with 4e was to just focus on the current timeframe and ignore the past (to alleviate the 'entitlement', etc), but more and more we are seeing articles/adventures that have information useful to someone running games in a previous period.

    Like I said, I'm really not the best person to point this stuff out, because I don't have DDi, but I am aware of designers (especially certain freelancers) trying to create material that is useful to everyone. It must have proven popular, because this is what we are going to get moving forward (according to everything I've heard).

    Also, I'd add the two excerpts we've gotten thus-far from Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms to the list of multi-era articles. One can assume the entire book is designed that way.
    The Red Walker Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 05:40:45
    quote:
    Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

    @Mapolq: mmm, you do have a point there. I guess it would defend on the event for me ^^; also, what is the D&Di?



    D&d insider, a subscription service

    http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Tools.aspx
    CorellonsDevout Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 05:12:09
    @Mapolq: mmm, you do have a point there. I guess it would defend on the event for me ^^; also, what is the D&Di?
    Mapolq Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 04:30:30
    quote:
    Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

    Mmm...not sure how I feel about that. I mean, we already HAVE those novels, and we'd know the outcome of the events. The even would have to be really interesting for me to read something set in the past era (such as the Crown Wars. That would be interesting).



    We have an entire world, surely there is an enourmous multiplicity of stories to be told. You can even tell stories set during events that were already covered, but giving new perspectives and detail (though I'd prefer exploring enterily new ground). I mean, one doesn't dismiss a good novel about the American Civil War because they know the Union is going to win.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Markustay

    3) "Support for all eras" = this is the vaguest of all the ideas they are talking about. I am not sure how they can produce a single book useable by someone running a game in the Days of Thunder, and in 1485 DR. We keep hearing about certain articles on the DDi (which can only be read by folks who are already WotC fans), but the detractors can't see these to make any sort of comparison, so they aren't a useful reference. I think we will know precisely what they mean when Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Guide to the Forgotten Realms comes out, so hopefully this point will be clarified soon-enough.


    Can you clarify which articles you mean and what people are talking about them? I have a D&Di subscription, but I'm not up to date with all the stuff they publish. I haven't seen anything particularly enlightening about the "Support for all eras" on the little material I've read. But if you could point me to it, I'd be grateful. And I could relay my opinion, for what it's worth. I'm certainly not in the WotC camp where 4th edition D&D and (especially) 4th edition FR are concerned, so at least I won't be biased that way.
    Alystra Illianniis Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 04:21:41
    He'd be the one pulling the wings off of fairy-dragons. Then pitting them against each other in a big tub. And taking bets on the winner.
    The Red Walker Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 04:10:38
    Larloch as a kid
    Alystra Illianniis Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 03:59:01
    Well, they could also be using small stories set in the past that detail events that were not considered "big" historically. I'm thinking of tales like Josediah Starym's descent into the Twisted Tower, Khelban Blackstaff's early years, and otehr such tales, here. Maybe a story about Halaster's rise? The tragic tale of Sammaster? Oh, we could get some GREAT novels and anthologies from this...
    CorellonsDevout Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 01:20:45
    Mmm...not sure how I feel about that. I mean, we already HAVE those novels, and we'd know the outcome of the events. The even would have to be really interesting for me to read something set in the past era (such as the Crown Wars. That would be interesting).
    Irennan Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 00:02:31
    Apparently, there is a chance that we'll see novels set in the past eras.
    CorellonsDevout Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 23:37:42
    How will "supporting all eras" work in the case of the novels?
    Eilserus Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 21:15:01
    I think multiple era ideas for campaigning will work for some products. They were able to pull it off with the Menzo product more or less. My only regret is it wasn't a beast of a book like the original boxed set was. Aside from that, I think I'd much rather prefer to the "support for all eras" simply meaning we can buy every product they have EVER created, regardless of edition. I don't want to see huge space wasting 3E type stat blocks in books or the same wasteful tactical encounters that covered 50% of a tome, but I wouldn't mind the old abbreviated version from 2E days like: Elminster (CG hm W29 INT 20 WIS 20; staff of the magi) etc. It's short, sweet and gives enough info to flesh the rest of the NPC out. Then they can just stick a small couple page NPC's section in the back of whatever book if need be like they did for the old Volo guides.

    "Support all eras" could work out just fine, but it probably won't work for most books if they are only 100 pages. Minimum page count should be 150 to 200, ditch hard cover for soft if its cheaper to boost page count (like the binding for City of the Spider Queen and Lords of Darkness etc.). At any rate, I hope they can figure it out to raise page count, which I suspect is also partially tied to the average of copies being sold for products. And I'm sure I've yammered about it somewhere, but Forgotten Realms adventure paths, done up like Paizo, one per month in a similar arc concerning places like the Dales, the Moonsea, the Vast, The North, Amn etc etc. If they could pull it off, it'd be totally epic and make Wizards lots of money!

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