| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| dead |
Posted - 06 Oct 2011 : 04:45:25
Hi folks,
I'm just starting a new 3E campaign. The campaign starts in 1370DR.
One of my players has just created a drow cleric of Mystra.
Anyway, I know the Spellplague is a while away (15 years) but, it got me thinking, what happened to clerics of Mystra when the Spellplague hit in 1385DR?
I know there's some controversy over whether the Spellplague effects arcane and divine magic. For my campaign, it will effect both kinds of magic. I think it's just easier that way.
And we know that many mages are driven insane by the ravages of the Spellplague. However, I can't find any sources describing clerics going mad. Are there any canon references?
I know it's my campaign and I can save the PC from the ravages of the Spellplague if I so choose, but I was curious to see what other members of the FR community thought would have happened to clerics during the Spellplague and, in particular, clerics of Mystra.
Thank you |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 14 Jun 2021 : 14:10:24
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Given the stated purpose of the Second Sundering to reset things back to where they were pre-Spellplague, I am willing to believe that Mt. Talath and it's contents are there in at least some manner.
Probably still in the process of being rebuilt by new converts; as of the SCAG, the returned Halruaans are busy sending scouts and skyships out to find out what the hell has happened while they go through the long, fraught, and rocky process of reconstructing their entire nation. That kind of damage can't simply be papered over. But that just makes it good for the ground floor thing I remember mentioning. Halruaa would make for a very useful adventure location, really. It's ripe for the picking by player characters. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Jun 2021 : 23:31:37
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I'm probably one the least anti 4e folks here ;)
I was one of those people in 2008 and 2009 who viscerally despised 4e. Thanks to the efforts of scribes like Diffan and Keftiu, I foreswore my hatred of 4e. I speak only for myself, but I find it hard to believe I am the only one who moved on.
It does not mean I abandoned rather serious disagreements with that edition. But I understand and honor the intention to rein in the shenanigans caused in 3.x editions, not least caster vs non-caster discrepancies.
I thank you kind sir  . I'm glad all the pro-4e rhetoric got to some people in a positive way! |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 13 Jun 2021 : 17:14:59
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I'm probably one the least anti 4e folks here ;)
I was one of those people in 2008 and 2009 who viscerally despised 4e. Thanks to the efforts of scribes like Diffan and Keftiu, I foreswore my hatred of 4e. I speak only for myself, but I find it hard to believe I am the only one who moved on.
It does not mean I abandoned rather serious disagreements with that edition. But I understand and honor the intention to rein in the shenanigans caused in 3.x editions, not least caster vs non-caster discrepancies. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 13 Jun 2021 : 16:02:17
Given the stated purpose of the Second Sundering to reset things back to where they were pre-Spellplague, I am willing to believe that Mt. Talath and it's contents are there in at least some manner. As for the worship of Mystra, I am even willing to give that a possibility. The reason for the temple's existence was to collect and preserve information about magic incase something happened. Well, it did. I don't see that completely removing their worship of Mystra since the possibility of her disappearance was likely included in the faith (since something has happened to her at least twice before). |
| Matt James |
Posted - 13 Jun 2021 : 04:01:39
I'm probably one the least anti 4e folks here ;) |
| keftiu |
Posted - 13 Jun 2021 : 03:22:54
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Hindsight and all, WotC stopped being an actual game company back around the time 4e came about. It was morphed into a marketing firm. Brand managers, and product owners.
Chalk this up to Hasbro more than anything else.
(Also, lots of game design happened in the 4e era! Material you don’t like is not the same as a lack of content.) |
| Matt James |
Posted - 13 Jun 2021 : 02:28:17
Hindsight and all, WotC stopped being an actual game company back around the time 4e came about. It was morphed into a marketing firm. Brand managers, and product owners. Along with this came the elements that (in their eyes) necessitated the destruction of the canon Realms.
Calling it now; it's an easy enough win to create circumstances whereby a ret-con is not actually needed--rather parallel timelines though time paradox (as already covered here).
It's painful to say, and I'll try to duck from flying objects hurled at me, but there just wasn't a large-enough group of folks like us that necessitated said continuity.
Bob has no reason to rock that boat, and never has had the need. You can't blame the guy. He owes his entire livelihood to playing it straight--as will future generations of his family. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Jun 2021 : 22:43:57
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
What has been said about Halruaa? I know that it wasn't destroyed, just moved to Abeir. If Halruaa has returned intact, that may mean that Mt. Talath is still there, too. That could be the only temple left to Mystra.
Parts were removed, some parts stayed and became a strongly infested Plaguechanged land. One LFR Adventure I did (players were roughly 11th, 12th level) was delving into the wreckage of one of the jungles to help find materials to repair the Skyships of the Five Companies. You have to travel to the area known as Rethild and into the city of Ilimar, a former Sarrukh settlement that was reclaimed by the lizardfolk of Rethild.
I'm pretty certain it's not an offical / Canon adventure, but certianly paints a desolate picture of Halruaan landscape circa 1479-1480s DR. The second sundering was supposed to help usher in Halruaa into the new era, but not much else has been said. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 12 Jun 2021 : 22:07:45
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
What has been said about Halruaa? I know that it wasn't destroyed, just moved to Abeir. If Halruaa has returned intact, that may mean that Mt. Talath is still there, too. That could be the only temple left to Mystra.
I don’t think we’ve seen any official material on post-Second Sundering Halruaa. That temple was super twisted and scary during the 4e era, if I recall. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 12 Jun 2021 : 21:34:51
What has been said about Halruaa? I know that it wasn't destroyed, just moved to Abeir. If Halruaa has returned intact, that may mean that Mt. Talath is still there, too. That could be the only temple left to Mystra. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 12 Jun 2021 : 20:30:20
As promised, I have read some of the confirmed canon LFR adventures dealing with Mystra, and there is no mention to what happened to her clerics, and there are no new clerics of her in the adventure, save for the ghosts of the dead ones. Mystra's temples were also repurposed for other gods or left to rot.
Seems, by that point the people writing the story of the official products just assumed Mystra was dead for good and her cult just as dead as her. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 29 May 2021 : 02:57:41
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
If you are talking about the effects of the Spell Plague and loss of many key gods for many generations, an absent and completely overlooked aspect of this is the sudden and irrevocable loss of real power by the civilizations of humans, elves, gnomes, halflings, and to a lesser extent, dwarves. All civilizations used magic to bolster their capabilities and depended upon supernatural powers for their projections of force. We only needed to look as far as the PrC-centered organizations/armies and their dependence on magical powers to see the truth that magic was essential for civilizations to defend themselves and keep order. The sheer number of clerics and other faith based casters whom were suddenly abandoned as well as all surviving arcane casters whom were suddenly powerless would have created chaos and a power vacuum. "Might makes right," would have been the rule of that time period with many opportunistic leaders of bully-boys seizing power thus precipitating a rise of the warrior aristocracy. It would not have taken long for the savage humanoids outside of these civilizations to figure out that the fulcrum of power has shifted in their favor foreshadowing the doom or diminishing of long-standing nations bordering hostile barbarian/inhuman hordes. This should have been more devastating than the collapse of the Roman Empire in bringing a dark age upon the FR in depopulating lands and depriving the few descendants of many rights & freedoms that their ancestors enjoyed once the likes of powerful & intelligent monsters enslaved the people who could not flee to the reduced centers of power and the newly displaced who did make it were relegated to the bottom rungs of society. There were great ecological calamities that wrought destruction across the land destroying topography in such a way that the much more frail infrastructures, land works, and structures would have been damaged if not destroyed. Resource trade would have been in disarray because of disrupted transportation networks, destroyed industries, and ruined harvests. What follows is pestilence, disease, famine, and war - truly dark days.
But WotC just blithely ignored that and the very likely outcome that humans would no longer have a dominant hand in controlling the land some 100 years later. What should have followed was the age of the monstrous humanoids with humanity clinging to a few isolated bastions or otherwise prostrating themselves for the protection by the undeniably powerful giants, dragons, and other entities with which bargains of sanctuary can be made. The banners of orcs & goblinoids would wave over many formerly proud human cities. At least, that's my take.
I mean, you gotta look at the results. Multiple nations fought returned netheril for most of that century, the silver marches got pounded right at the end, and the nations still stand. I mean, the Chosen are hard-carrying in the miracles department for humanoid civilization across the board.
Wait- WHAT about Anaumator being a time god in 4e?!
How do I keep putting random elements into my game and they end up becoming on-theme as all hell. I even had a time elemental in that dungeon.. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 19:08:12
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
One question I have is about wild magic/dead magic zones pre- and post-Spellplague. Would the "reset" done to magic have cleared those or would they be back either after things settle down(1395) or when Mystra came back?
They are still there even after the advent of Mystra III. Ed Greenwood said that even a few plaguelands endured the Second Sundering and are out there, though they are rare and in usually hard to get areas. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 19:03:29
Magic dead zones, wild magic areas, places where the Weave has “tangled” threads or “pulled” threads, and the like all still exist and see use in Adventure League. So no, I don’t think the return of the Weave would have fixed them. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 18:34:55
One question I have is about wild magic/dead magic zones pre- and post-Spellplague. Would the "reset" done to magic have cleared those or would they be back either after things settle down(1395) or when Mystra came back? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 18:14:33
Actually, time travel was somehow easier during the Spellplague thanks to it warping time itself. The trade-off is that you had to endure the Spellplague full effects to travel through time.
As for someone "fixing things", Amaunator was the god of time in 4e, and he was all about "respect the sanctity of the timeline". So, he would have stopped anyone trying to "fix things". That's what the canon says, at least. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 17:04:35
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Time travel? I would say that would be blocked by ripples of the timestream caused by the Spellplague (otherwise, someone may have fixed the Spellplague out of existence).
Worth commenting here that the various obelisks scattered through 5e adventures were revealed to allow users to time travel back to a time five years before Karsus does that Very Stupid Thing. While I haven't gone back and re-checked the exact phrasing of how it works, it should be possible for time travel to skip past the Spellplague and go far into the past of Faerun, back through multiple iterations of the Weave and ripples/destructive effects. Perhaps not using the obelisks, but other forms similar to that might be viable.
If trying to put some logic to it, I might cast it as the difference between trying to travel back past something, against traveling directly into the chaotic events themselves and any "temporal turbulence" they kick up around them. Like a plane flying around a storm as opposed to through it. So you're not going to go into the year 1387 DR or 1397 DR because that's the crazy period and you'll find it very hard to stick a safe landing. It would be similar if you were trying to jump into 1358 DR and the Time of Troubles. But if you jump to, say, 1220 DR? Stable and fine. -400 DR? Yeah, you're good. -339 DR and the ~6 seconds or so of Karsus being dumb? Bad plan. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 14:21:26
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That being said, we do have a documented ten years where "magic wasn't the greatest". I'm sure someone will come along and quote something that says magic was dead entirely, but we have clear cut cases that that wasn't the state of things. I agree, there should have been a rise in the warrior class for a few generations. Even after that, magic just wasn't as powerful as pre-spellplague (and ostensibly even post second sundering it still isn't, though there are SOME things that are). We should be seeing more places in Faerun where the leadership of a warrior caste has taken root more (for instance, while Rashemen always had a reverence for warriors, I can see there being a lot more power in the huhrong over the wychlaran now... he would be less symbolic and would probably have his own surrounding council of which the wychlaran would be one piece..... similarly, in Aglarond, it would be much more focused on leadership with rangers and such very involved.... in Impiltur, well that's so changed that I have trouble picturing how they went from a shining, knight filled realm to a realm filled with fiends and demon cultists sacrificing humans in just a century, so I'd rather picture it emerging with a young king rising up to refound the country for a third time)
Bingo. It was completely dead for a while during a portion of the Wailing Years: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10705
The way I was thinking of handling that is that the first 2 years, it was wild magic everywhere. The following year magic became more and more unlikely to work at all. Then 3 more years of no magic at all. Then the following 4 years where it was slowly coming back. Then, by 1395, a new normal had been achieved.
Now, after 1395, I am thinking it would have been the wild west as far as magic is concerned. Mystra is gone so her rules are gone too. 12th level spells? Sure. Time travel? I would say that would be blocked by ripples of the timestream caused by the Spellplague (otherwise, someone may have fixed the Spellplague out of existence). No 10d6 damage caps. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 13:23:02
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
If you are talking about the effects of the Spell Plague and loss of many key gods for many generations, an absent and completely overlooked aspect of this is the sudden and irrevocable loss of real power by the civilizations of humans, elves, gnomes, halflings, and to a lesser extent, dwarves. All civilizations used magic to bolster their capabilities and depended upon supernatural powers for their projections of force. We only needed to look as far as the PrC-centered organizations/armies and their dependence on magical powers to see the truth that magic was essential for civilizations to defend themselves and keep order. The sheer number of clerics and other faith based casters whom were suddenly abandoned as well as all surviving arcane casters whom were suddenly powerless would have created chaos and a power vacuum. "Might makes right," would have been the rule of that time period with many opportunistic leaders of bully-boys seizing power thus precipitating a rise of the warrior aristocracy. It would not have taken long for the savage humanoids outside of these civilizations to figure out that the fulcrum of power has shifted in their favor foreshadowing the doom or diminishing of long-standing nations bordering hostile barbarian/inhuman hordes. This should have been more devastating than the collapse of the Roman Empire in bringing a dark age upon the FR in depopulating lands and depriving the few descendants of many rights & freedoms that their ancestors enjoyed once the likes of powerful & intelligent monsters enslaved the people who could not flee to the reduced centers of power and the newly displaced who did make it were relegated to the bottom rungs of society. There were great ecological calamities that wrought destruction across the land destroying topography in such a way that the much more frail infrastructures, land works, and structures would have been damaged if not destroyed. Resource trade would have been in disarray because of disrupted transportation networks, destroyed industries, and ruined harvests. What follows is pestilence, disease, famine, and war - truly dark days.
But WotC just blithely ignored that and the very likely outcome that humans would no longer have a dominant hand in controlling the land some 100 years later. What should have followed was the age of the monstrous humanoids with humanity clinging to a few isolated bastions or otherwise prostrating themselves for the protection by the undeniably powerful giants, dragons, and other entities with which bargains of sanctuary can be made. The banners of orcs & goblinoids would wave over many formerly proud human cities. At least, that's my take.
Not saying you are wrong in this, but not agreeing that you are absolutely right either. I say this because we have this viewpoint in our heads that magic went entirely dead, but we very much have examples that it didn't. Much magic in faerun continued to work. People were still able to cast spells. The red wizards under Tam learned to quickly modify their casting ostensibly because of a deal made with a god for information. It would not be hard to believe that some of the teachings leaked from the red wizard organization because A) there were defectors or B) someone managed to get ahold of their notes. In addition, others may have used other similar methods to keep their magics stable.
Of course, there were a LOT of changes written into the campaign setting, so things DID change. In some ways its a bit unfair to say that WotC didn't try to represent this. Now, did I like those changes? Hell no. But they DID make some of these changes occur. For instance, Dambrath became a warrior centered culture based on Malar worship with men at the top. MANY of the countries just fell apart. Calimshan became a place ruled by people who suddenly developed innate elemental power. Chessenta returned to its warrior caste roots. Some places like Sembia were more buffered from surrounding humanoid cultures, but they had their own issues with the shadovar (who still had their own soldiers on veserabs, flying cities, etc... ). The humanoids too would have been less inclined to war, because its much easier to incite war when there is at least a possibility of being magically healed by the tribal shaman/witch doctor.
That being said, we do have a documented ten years where "magic wasn't the greatest". I'm sure someone will come along and quote something that says magic was dead entirely, but we have clear cut cases that that wasn't the state of things. I agree, there should have been a rise in the warrior class for a few generations. Even after that, magic just wasn't as powerful as pre-spellplague (and ostensibly even post second sundering it still isn't, though there are SOME things that are). We should be seeing more places in Faerun where the leadership of a warrior caste has taken root more (for instance, while Rashemen always had a reverence for warriors, I can see there being a lot more power in the huhrong over the wychlaran now... he would be less symbolic and would probably have his own surrounding council of which the wychlaran would be one piece..... similarly, in Aglarond, it would be much more focused on leadership with rangers and such very involved.... in Impiltur, well that's so changed that I have trouble picturing how they went from a shining, knight filled realm to a realm filled with fiends and demon cultists sacrificing humans in just a century, so I'd rather picture it emerging with a young king rising up to refound the country for a third time) |
| SaMoCon |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 11:31:21
If you are talking about the effects of the Spell Plague and loss of many key gods for many generations, an absent and completely overlooked aspect of this is the sudden and irrevocable loss of real power by the civilizations of humans, elves, gnomes, halflings, and to a lesser extent, dwarves. All civilizations used magic to bolster their capabilities and depended upon supernatural powers for their projections of force. We only needed to look as far as the PrC-centered organizations/armies and their dependence on magical powers to see the truth that magic was essential for civilizations to defend themselves and keep order. The sheer number of clerics and other faith based casters whom were suddenly abandoned as well as all surviving arcane casters whom were suddenly powerless would have created chaos and a power vacuum. "Might makes right," would have been the rule of that time period with many opportunistic leaders of bully-boys seizing power thus precipitating a rise of the warrior aristocracy. It would not have taken long for the savage humanoids outside of these civilizations to figure out that the fulcrum of power has shifted in their favor foreshadowing the doom or diminishing of long-standing nations bordering hostile barbarian/inhuman hordes. This should have been more devastating than the collapse of the Roman Empire in bringing a dark age upon the FR in depopulating lands and depriving the few descendants of many rights & freedoms that their ancestors enjoyed once the likes of powerful & intelligent monsters enslaved the people who could not flee to the reduced centers of power and the newly displaced who did make it were relegated to the bottom rungs of society. There were great ecological calamities that wrought destruction across the land destroying topography in such a way that the much more frail infrastructures, land works, and structures would have been damaged if not destroyed. Resource trade would have been in disarray because of disrupted transportation networks, destroyed industries, and ruined harvests. What follows is pestilence, disease, famine, and war - truly dark days.
But WotC just blithely ignored that and the very likely outcome that humans would no longer have a dominant hand in controlling the land some 100 years later. What should have followed was the age of the monstrous humanoids with humanity clinging to a few isolated bastions or otherwise prostrating themselves for the protection by the undeniably powerful giants, dragons, and other entities with which bargains of sanctuary can be made. The banners of orcs & goblinoids would wave over many formerly proud human cities. At least, that's my take. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 28 May 2021 : 02:46:59
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
THREADUS RESSURRECTUS!
So, given the decade since this thread was last touched, has anything official been released about what happened with the Church of Mystra between 1385 and 1480? Since her worshippers were mainly human, we are talking three generations of humans without Mystra. Why would her church even exist at that point on either Abeir or Toril? There may be a cult or two here or there (at most) but she certainly wouldn't have had an organized church when she came back. All of her temples/shrines would have either been abandoned or converted to another deity. The only way that I can see it lasting is if Selune, or more likely Oghma, stepped in and said they were acting as regent for Mystra (kinda like what Lliira did for Waukeen). That way the church would continue in roughly the same form and be there ready and waiting for when Mystra did return.
This is PARTLY one of the reasons why I like my idea that "some gods actually went to Abeir". If there's returning cities and such that never lost the worship of Leira, Deneir, Savras, Mystra, Mask, Lathander, Talos, or ANY of the other gods who are coming back, we can see them quickly possibly "moving in" to recover old temples and such in the past few years. So, maybe the temple in Waterdeep was abandoned.... but as Halruaa returns it sends a representative to Waterdeep to refurbish the place.
The same may be true of places that "transferred" to Abeir but whose gods remained in Toril. There might be a returning of clergy into these returning lands seeking to repopulate the temples.
Some gods leaving to Abeir helps explain how Ao managed to quash the little divine Domain situation. A bunch of title-holders shipping off would leave some open positions across the planet.
quote:
The same question needs to be asked for a LOT of temples
Mystra, Azuth, Auppenser, Savras, Deneir, Eldath, Mask, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Talos, and Velsharoon all disappeared in the years leading up to the spellplague and prior to the start of 4e... and that's just the faerunian pantheon without the various racial pantheons or pantheons outside of Faerun taken into account. Also, with some that disappeared in 2nd/3rd edition (Myrkul, Bhaal, Leira, Iyachtu Xvim, and even in theory Malyk who shows up in MToF) that are or may also be back. Granted, some we were given explanations for (Lathanderites rebadged as Amaunator, Talos supposedly became Gruumsh, Tyr's worshippers started worshipping Torm or Bahamut)
For example, did the former temples of Talos become temples to Gruumsh or Auril or even possibly Istishia? What's happening with them now?
In the case of Mystra its especially interesting though because ALL of her servitor deities except for Velsharoon died following the spellplague's start.... and even "alternate" deities like Deneir whose ethos might have been able to stretch some also seemed to go away. You only get left with like Selune, Oghma, and Lurue.... and I don't see any of those 3 EXCEPT maybe Oghma accepting Velsharoon as a servitor. Nor do I see Mystrans accepting Velsharoon as the new "god of magic". Velsharoon meanwhile becomes an interesting case because 2 of the gods he served (Mystra & Talos) are gone and the last one (Shar) loses the shadow weave and definitely isn't someone that he'd want to serve for his OWN safety (I got my own story for him going though... i.e. Velsharoon was in Abeir and what was in Toril was Mellifleur).
On an aside here, with both Mystra and Helm gone, this is when I felt that the Red Knight might make an effective "goddess of spell and magical strategy".... essentially, when Mystra comes back, this goddess just might be serving both Tempus and Mystra (like Velsharoon had been doing to a degree, so its not an unheard of situation).
Think of how regimented and standardized life must have been like prior to the Time of Troubles for people in Faerun. After all the published crises of the 2nd and 3rd edition timeline, a single day rolls in and takes what last recognizable pieces of Faerun away from everyone for a generation. I can imagine that faith across the board takes on a whole different meaning when the Gods stop talking and one of the only two trade routes leading to where you live gets swallowed by a twenty mile chaos-hole. I'm not sure if any rural faith structures survive without radicalizing to the 4e Primordials or attaching themselves to what life-support the region has to survive on.
However with all of the Chosen showing up across all populations during the transitional period of 4e and DNDnext and wielding exarch-like powers and fleeing from the straight-up-evil-dont-think-about-it Shades for a decade or three, maybe the populace was ready for the gods to come back and to dust off their old ledgers.
Still.. the fact that the gods didn't say a word to their followers for another two years after the Second Sundering ends is maddening. Any serious priests actually running the show in their local area by the time things return to normal Forgotten Realms styled faiths must have been the definition of devout. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 May 2021 : 18:06:47
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Velsharoon meanwhile becomes an interesting case because 2 of the gods he served (Mystra & Talos) are gone and the last one (Shar) loses the shadow weave and definitely isn't someone that he'd want to serve for his OWN safety (I got my own story for him going though... i.e. Velsharoon was in Abeir and what was in Toril was Mellifleur).
Velsharoon survived the initial collapse, but only lived for another forty years or so. I think it’s the 4e FRCS that talks about it. He was mysteriously burned up as part of something (I forget what) that happened in Aglarond, which also allegedly killed the Simbul (she survived it obviously, per Ed’s novels). Meanwhile, the Aglarondans claimed his corpse, which to me says that Mystra dying and the Weave going haywire probably knocked him out of divinity and down to some sort of quasi-god status. He may well have been attempting, together with the Simbul, to somehow resurrect the Weave and Mystra (or do so with him as the new Mystra, using the Simbul as a catalyst). Instead he ends up burning himself to “death” and turning into some sort of vestigial entity until Mystra returns, the Sundering happens, and Ao perhaps restores him to godhood.
My personal homebrew take is that THAT was a much weakened avatar of Mellifleur that was "killed". The reason the body was kept was that when Velsharoon RETURNS from Abeir, he will not ascend to "full godhood" but rather have to roam the world in a "lesser avatar" / manifestation form. Of course, the Simbul doesn't know the reason why to keep the body... she's following orders. That's kind of key to me that EVEN THE CHOSEN don't know the whole story.
As to how Mellifleur showed up, he is noted as having many phylacteries, and my take is that he arranged for one from another crystal sphere to come to realmspace in order to try and reform his godhood (because Velsharoon used one of Mellifleur's prior phylacteries in his ritual to become a god, but said phylactery went to Abeir with the Tower Terrible and a portion of the city of Soorenar which the rest of Toril believed "drowned"). He was going to try and take over in the vacuum of Mystra, but he was stopped.
On Mystra and the other "gods of magic" (Azuth, Savras, Leira, Auppenser, Velsharoon, Deneir, etc...)... the general idea goes "Dweomerheart unlinked from Toril and linked to Abeir"... so it didn't "explode".... so the weave became available to Abeir in a very weak way and had to be built up over a century with the aid of the gods guiding mortals to do many things that humanity didn't understand the basis of (and which ultimately burned up many religious artifacts)...
After 100 years, Dweomerheart begins to rebuild links BACK to Toril... fueled by the destruction of blueflame magic items, a failed ritual by Szass Tam that draws upon the power of the Athora and pours it into Mystra, and the actions of the Torilian people in Abeir who worship her. Some of the gods of magic MAYBE come back as regular deities (for instance, Azuth, Savras, Leira, and Deneir are all listed as "regular" deities in the SCAG). Some come back in "avatar" or "immortal" forms and must work to regain their full god status (such as Velsharoon, Karsus, Auppenser) kind of how we're hearing that Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, and Auril might all be much lesser in form.
To this list, I'd actually not be surprised to see SEVERAL other deities that aren't "magic" deities but that are "returning" back in some kind of "prime-bound" form.... for instance, Mask "riding" in Drasek Riven... it could be interesting to see Helm, Tyr, Eldath, Lathander, Talos, etc... having to regain their position somehow by possibly hunting down their own power sources that they have buried in the realms or performing miracles to regain their worship. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 20:47:09
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Velsharoon meanwhile becomes an interesting case because 2 of the gods he served (Mystra & Talos) are gone and the last one (Shar) loses the shadow weave and definitely isn't someone that he'd want to serve for his OWN safety (I got my own story for him going though... i.e. Velsharoon was in Abeir and what was in Toril was Mellifleur).
Velsharoon survived the initial collapse, but only lived for another forty years or so. I think it’s the 4e FRCS that talks about it. He was mysteriously burned up as part of something (I forget what) that happened in Aglarond, which also allegedly killed the Simbul (she survived it obviously, per Ed’s novels). Meanwhile, the Aglarondans claimed his corpse, which to me says that Mystra dying and the Weave going haywire probably knocked him out of divinity and down to some sort of quasi-god status. He may well have been attempting, together with the Simbul, to somehow resurrect the Weave and Mystra (or do so with him as the new Mystra, using the Simbul as a catalyst). Instead he ends up burning himself to “death” and turning into some sort of vestigial entity until Mystra returns, the Sundering happens, and Ao perhaps restores him to godhood.
As to where Mystra’s worshipers went and who picked up her temples, it’s an interesting question. Some might have drifted to Corellon. I feel like Oghma and Lurue probably got some too. But in large part the temples, especially in cities, likely were just decommissioned (it’s not like they’re a holy place any more), handed off or sold, and are now repurposed or torn down then rebuilt as ordinary/other buildings.
Maybe somebody could shoot it to Ed on Twitter as a question, or otherwise ask him? I don’t have Twitter myself, so I can’t (I despise social media on principle), but learning how the faith of Mystra is rebuilding (and buying/putting together temples/clergy, imagine what happened to the banks that were holding the money for Mystra’s church when it collapsed!), particularly since it would probably have to be from near-scratch, could be interesting if he has thoughts on it. Especially the notion of PCs getting in with the right chance to help rebuild and promote Mystra’s church again.
If nothing else, this sort of thing makes for interesting world building and thinking about to me, I dislike the notion of it being handwaved away. You could legitimately construct a campaign around a group of player characters for various gods being out to promote and rebuild their god’s church and reputation by accomplishing great and heroic deeds. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 19:53:07
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I am trying to use as a model what the Waukeenar did when she disappeared. Now, it is a different situation given Waukeen had actually passed her portfolio over to Lliira but it still kinda shows an array of reactions (some kept the faith, others lost it).
Quite a lot of them lost the faith. Faiths and Avatars discussed how "many" followers and churches turned to other faiths, there was utter pandemonium among the clergy, and when Lliira's prophet showed up to say she'd hold the portfolio in trust, "the Waukeenar temples, already battered by a loss of respect and worshipers, readily agreed" and their entire faith was simply folded into Lliira. Any dissenters moved to Tymora/Lathander/Shaundakul/Beshaba. After she escaped Graz'zt, the Waukeenar who went to Lathander and Lliira returned to Waukeen, but the new Tymorans and Shaundakuns noticeably did not (again, per F&A).
Using that as a basis, it's also worth noting that Waukeen's disappearance was for a mere five years before her church very nearly entirely collapsed even with Lliira to safeguard the portfolio. Really, you could say it did collapse and be pretty accurate, since Lliira's church more or less took over at that point. Even then, there was significant difficulty once Waukeen came back after 10-12 years, because many of her followers didn't leave their new gods to go back to the old one.
Mystra and Azuth and Savras were dead for a hundred years. That is an order of magnitude more. Entire generations have gone by, of humans and half-elves and even an elf generation (ish). And these gods weren't just mysteriously absent with nobody knowing what happened, as Waukeen was. Cyric and Shar and Asmodeus killed them.
So initially you may have the makings of a Waukeenar situation, but from the outset there are going to be different elements. They didn't just go down to the store for cigarettes and never return, and aren't just letting the prayer-phone ring off the hook. I feel reasonably safe in saying that their churches and clergy likely collapsed more quickly than the Waukeenar faith did, especially with no other god stepping in to hold the portfolios in trust.
After a hundred years? They're rebuilding from square one save for the exceptional situations (Halruaa, Silverymoon). Even those exceptions are going to get an almost total overhaul. It's unlikely that many people more broadly worship them unless they're an older elf or a new convert. Believe that they're back and exist again? Sure. But actual clerics, priests, clergy is a different matter.
Anyway, those are just some more rambling thoughts, bouncing off the Waukeen mention.
I am taking that approach with Mystra's. I think I have come up with a reasonable outcome for the temple I am looking at.
On a side note, processing this time jump feels a bit odd. I have over 100 named NPCs, some with rather involved backgrounds and now I am going down the list marking off the ones that it wouldn't normally be possible for them to still be alive. Next will be all the non-humans (ones with long enough life spans to make it to that age) with a question of "did they survive to that point?" Even if they did, the next is a question of would they have retired by then? It is kinda sad, really. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 19:29:54
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Any input is helpful. I am just trying to determine how a Mystran temple would react. I can see wizards going there for advice after magic gets messed up. Once the priests provide the help they can (via the previously mentioned book), what do they do? In 2e, a priest could get back up to level 3 spells (I think it was level 3, may be level 2) if they couldn't reach their deity. I don't think that would apply now since the deity in question is gone so they would be completely without magic. So, you have a group of very faithful people with high willpower. I don't see them just going "well, it was fun while it lasted but I think I will take up farming now". I am trying to use as a model what the Waukeenar did when she disappeared. Now, it is a different situation given Waukeen had actually passed her portfolio over to Lliira but it still kinda shows an array of reactions (some kept the faith, others lost it).
The same question needs to be asked for a LOT of temples
Mystra, Azuth, Auppenser, Savras, Deneir, Eldath, Mask, Helm, Tyr, Lathander, Talos, and Velsharoon all disappeared in the years leading up to the spellplague and prior to the start of 4e... and that's just the faerunian pantheon without the various racial pantheons or pantheons outside of Faerun taken into account. Also, with some that disappeared in 2nd/3rd edition (Myrkul, Bhaal, Leira, Iyachtu Xvim, and even in theory Malyk who shows up in MToF) that are or may also be back. Granted, some we were given explanations for (Lathanderites rebadged as Amaunator, Talos supposedly became Gruumsh, Tyr's worshippers started worshipping Torm or Bahamut)
For example, did the former temples of Talos become temples to Gruumsh or Auril or even possibly Istishia? What's happening with them now?
In the case of Mystra its especially interesting though because ALL of her servitor deities except for Velsharoon died following the spellplague's start.... and even "alternate" deities like Deneir whose ethos might have been able to stretch some also seemed to go away. You only get left with like Selune, Oghma, and Lurue.... and I don't see any of those 3 EXCEPT maybe Oghma accepting Velsharoon as a servitor. Nor do I see Mystrans accepting Velsharoon as the new "god of magic". Velsharoon meanwhile becomes an interesting case because 2 of the gods he served (Mystra & Talos) are gone and the last one (Shar) loses the shadow weave and definitely isn't someone that he'd want to serve for his OWN safety (I got my own story for him going though... i.e. Velsharoon was in Abeir and what was in Toril was Mellifleur).
On an aside here, with both Mystra and Helm gone, this is when I felt that the Red Knight might make an effective "goddess of spell and magical strategy".... essentially, when Mystra comes back, this goddess just might be serving both Tempus and Mystra (like Velsharoon had been doing to a degree, so its not an unheard of situation).
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 18:24:00
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
No, it isn't magical in the least bit. If you don't know already how to cast arcane magic, it won't do you any good. And it doesn't give you the answer. It is just a thaumaturgical research aid that will help an arcane caster get to being able to reliably cast spells in the new environment in a shorter amount of time. Any arcane caster can come up with the same "fix" without the book.
Yeah, in some respects it might be seen as a physics primer that might make notes like "a lot of equations take into assumption that objects fall at a given acceleration because that's what it is on earth, but when you are on a new planet that acceleration speed may chance and you will need to determine what it is and then modify all equations accordingly"
Same might be said of magic WITH the weave where "this constant" is in play due to the weave, and when it ISN'T in play you may need to determine what the NEW constant is for that variable and then adjust all of your things accordingly. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 17:50:44
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I am trying to use as a model what the Waukeenar did when she disappeared. Now, it is a different situation given Waukeen had actually passed her portfolio over to Lliira but it still kinda shows an array of reactions (some kept the faith, others lost it).
Quite a lot of them lost the faith. Faiths and Avatars discussed how "many" followers and churches turned to other faiths, there was utter pandemonium among the clergy, and when Lliira's prophet showed up to say she'd hold the portfolio in trust, "the Waukeenar temples, already battered by a loss of respect and worshipers, readily agreed" and their entire faith was simply folded into Lliira. Any dissenters moved to Tymora/Lathander/Shaundakul/Beshaba. After she escaped Graz'zt, the Waukeenar who went to Lathander and Lliira returned to Waukeen, but the new Tymorans and Shaundakuns noticeably did not (again, per F&A).
Using that as a basis, it's also worth noting that Waukeen's disappearance was for a mere five years before her church very nearly entirely collapsed even with Lliira to safeguard the portfolio. Really, you could say it did collapse and be pretty accurate, since Lliira's church more or less took over at that point. Even then, there was significant difficulty once Waukeen came back after 10-12 years, because many of her followers didn't leave their new gods to go back to the old one.
Mystra and Azuth and Savras were dead for a hundred years. That is an order of magnitude more. Entire generations have gone by, of humans and half-elves and even an elf generation (ish). And these gods weren't just mysteriously absent with nobody knowing what happened, as Waukeen was. Cyric and Shar and Asmodeus killed them.
So initially you may have the makings of a Waukeenar situation, but from the outset there are going to be different elements. They didn't just go down to the store for cigarettes and never return, and aren't just letting the prayer-phone ring off the hook. I feel reasonably safe in saying that their churches and clergy likely collapsed more quickly than the Waukeenar faith did, especially with no other god stepping in to hold the portfolios in trust.
After a hundred years? They're rebuilding from square one save for the exceptional situations (Halruaa, Silverymoon). Even those exceptions are going to get an almost total overhaul. It's unlikely that many people more broadly worship them unless they're an older elf or a new convert. Believe that they're back and exist again? Sure. But actual clerics, priests, clergy is a different matter.
Anyway, those are just some more rambling thoughts, bouncing off the Waukeen mention. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 16:57:30
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
THREADUS RESSURRECTUS!
So, given the decade since this thread was last touched, has anything official been released about what happened with the Church of Mystra between 1385 and 1480? Since her worshippers were mainly human, we are talking three generations of humans without Mystra. Why would her church even exist at that point on either Abeir or Toril? There may be a cult or two here or there (at most) but she certainly wouldn't have had an organized church when she came back. All of her temples/shrines would have either been abandoned or converted to another deity. The only way that I can see it lasting is if Selune, or more likely Oghma, stepped in and said they were acting as regent for Mystra (kinda like what Lliira did for Waukeen). That way the church would continue in roughly the same form and be there ready and waiting for when Mystra did return.
This is PARTLY one of the reasons why I like my idea that "some gods actually went to Abeir". If there's returning cities and such that never lost the worship of Leira, Deneir, Savras, Mystra, Mask, Lathander, Talos, or ANY of the other gods who are coming back, we can see them quickly possibly "moving in" to recover old temples and such in the past few years. So, maybe the temple in Waterdeep was abandoned.... but as Halruaa returns it sends a representative to Waterdeep to refurbish the place.
The same may be true of places that "transferred" to Abeir but whose gods remained in Toril. There might be a returning of clergy into these returning lands seeking to repopulate the temples. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 15:19:56
Any input is helpful. I am just trying to determine how a Mystran temple would react. I can see wizards going there for advice after magic gets messed up. Once the priests provide the help they can (via the previously mentioned book), what do they do? In 2e, a priest could get back up to level 3 spells (I think it was level 3, may be level 2) if they couldn't reach their deity. I don't think that would apply now since the deity in question is gone so they would be completely without magic. So, you have a group of very faithful people with high willpower. I don't see them just going "well, it was fun while it lasted but I think I will take up farming now". I am trying to use as a model what the Waukeenar did when she disappeared. Now, it is a different situation given Waukeen had actually passed her portfolio over to Lliira but it still kinda shows an array of reactions (some kept the faith, others lost it). |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 26 May 2021 : 02:49:05
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
That sounds like you’re writing something that is basically the same as the Nether Scrolls. The Scrolls are a repository of knowledge as well, and a “backup copy” of the Art as set up by Mystra (and to a lesser extent Azuth). Unless the comparison/duplicate aspect is intentional.
The scrolls being called the Skin of the World Serpent yet also being claimed in such ways to the goddess(es) of Magic is always so fascinating to me, especially with all the messy stuff with that god Asmodeus bonded with for a time. Mystra, creator races, hell, coatl, it's all so wonderfully strange.
By the way- I've taken to what the wiki has said on Magic in and after the Spellplague. It basically suggests to me that the fluctuating wild magic across toril meant that all who learned magic after the spellplague hit were learning how to manipulate raw magic (not heavy magic, the netherese superfuel) in ways not done before. When Mystra is partially restored about halfway through the 100 year gap, a new generation of mages has sprung up from the ashes of a significant collapse and rediscovery of Arcana for most average wizards. With her restoration there would have been some subconscious guiding hand as the weave twitched with life beneath everyone's noses. With her fully restored during the events of.. the Herald I believe? Then on Magic would return to the way it was before- seamlessly embracing the skills developed by the Raw mages and enabling them the fullest extent of their own power by connecting them to the newly restored weave.
If everyone born before the second sundering was a Raw Magic manipulator in some way, it is a fun way to explain every class having Flexible Casting in 5e.  Sorry if it's off topic! |
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