| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 06:23:29
If you chop the limbs off a troll do they each grow into a new troll, or do they die as the torso regenerates them?
Can one keep a troll skull as a trophy, or will it rapidly flesh out into a complete (and probably hostile) troll?
I'm interested in knowing how others have resolved these issues. Are there any good references for the topic of troll anatomy? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 17:58:33
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmm... that train of thought made me just realize that trolls HAVE TO have a normal two-sex anatomy, and it also has to be fairly similar to the 'human norm', because trolls CAN mate with other creatures (giants in particular - apparently they all had the same mother... or father... or were cousins... something like that...)
Hmmmm, the whole idea of troll sex.... given that they can try whatever twisted thing they want to do and regenerate from it.... OMG, I think I just vomited a little bit. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 17:48:21
Hmmmm, I wonder, do trolls necessarily have strong "bones". I mean, they are kind of gangly/sinewy. Could it be that their core is a weaker type of cartilage and they rely more on muscle working against other muscle. I don't even know if that's possible... but it made me think. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 21:59:42
Hey I seem to recall trolls do die of old age, not sure what edition it was though. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 18:18:33
Interesting points.
In my mostly HB rules, I am trying to quantify 'soul stuff' (It weighs 21 grams  ), and as part of that I have to conceptualize what splitting a soul would do (using Voldemort as the most notorious modern example). Taking this a step further, my assumption is that sentient beings are little more then animals without their souls, so any loss occurring to ones soul would make a person act more feral (self-serving, with little conscience). All game-theory, mind you.
This would explain why liches tend to be evil - the separation from their soul makes them act with out any thought to others; not precisely evil, but it would be viewed as a sociopath by normal folk (who's souls were intact). I suppose a game-mechanic could be developed around this, where you could relate distance (of the phylactory) to how 'bestial' the lich becomes. This might also be the reason why Liches tend to keep them fairly close - they don't want to become completely feral.
How does this relate to trolls? Simple, really... if the majority of trolls are the product of thousands (millions?) of years of mitosis, then their souls would be practically non-existent, and they'd be a minute step above animals (which most trolls are). That means that the few trolls which are 'born' normally - through reproduction - may be the rare ones we see that wear armor and act as mercenaries, or at least, are able to establish some rapport with other races.
I like the idea of the heart having to do with the Trolls regenerative abilities, but that means that the new head would have no memories of its former life, which is a bit weird (or maybe necessary, given the circumstances?) I might use that, with some tweaking.
Also, while trying to find the word 'Mitosis' (above), I wiki'd reproduction, and it dawned on me that trolls are like plants! They reproduce sexually (sort of) and have fertilized seeds (eggs, whatever), which develop into new (seedlings... trollings?), BUT they can also reproduce with cuttings, and even grafts. Not all cuttings and/or grafts take - I think there are certain hormones (called 'rooting hormones') that help this along - you can even buy the stuff in stores.
So, here is what I am thinking - female trolls can probably do the mitosis thing easier, because they probably have the hormone they need already flowing inside of them. Male trolls can only do it if some outside stimulus is added - as magic was in the Moonshae novels.
Another thing I am considering is the WHY of having females at all, that reproduce normally. Quite simple - cutting HURTS. Plants can reproduce using either method, but I am sure if they could talk they'd be screaming at you to stop cutting off their branches. Still, you would think pain was something a regenerating creature would get used to, and the benefits of building a troll army should outweigh the down-side.
So we must consider another factor: the problem of cloning. Which is the 'real one'? If you were the biggest, baddest troll on the block, and was the leader of your tribe, would you want another, identical YOU around? As demonstrated in many media - Arnold Shwarzenegger in The 6th Day jumps to mind - we see how in most cases, the clone(s) will try to 'steal' the life of the original.
We can also go back to the beginning of my post and my theories about 'soul splitting' - if each split (regrowth from a dismembered body-part) lead to further 'spiritual degradation', then the entire troll race is on a horrific downward spiral into true bestiality. They are barely a culture as it is - with each passing generation, they could be slipping further from being considered 'sentient' at all. It could very well be a social stigma/taboo to purposefully reproduce in that fashion.
And this whole train of thought has given me a wonderful idea for a sub-plot in some setting. What if trolls were once highly civilized (like Krynnish Ogres: Irda), and through magic or whatever they purposely gave themselves the 'gift' of regeneration, which turned into a two-edged sword? They cursed themselves to slowly devolve!
Just my two cents... or five.... or twenty-one... |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 15:42:10
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Cut a worm in half, you end up with two worms.
Thats an old very incorrect legend which doesn't seem to die.
Cut a worm in half and you end up with two halfes of a dead worm and killed it. With a lot of luck the side with the head may life because you din't cut of too much vital stuff and regenerate a bit of its hull.
This works with some worms like the flatworm Planaria, but not with the segmented or roundworms. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 15:02:00
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Cut a worm in half, you end up with two worms.
Thats an old very incorrect legend which doesn't seem to die.
Cut a worm in half and you end up with two halfes of a dead worm and killed it. With a lot of luck the side with the head may life because you din't cut of too much vital stuff and regenerate a bit of its hull. |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 08:02:17
^ Good thinking Ayrik. I actually meant 'spirit' where I wrote 'soul' in that post. A soul can surely be divided (even within itself), but I'm quite sure the same isn't at all true for one's immortal spirit.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 07:36:43
If a soul is unquantifiable it can be divided into infinite parts without losing qualifiable properties. |
| bladeinAmn |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 05:59:31
From the 2e Monstrous Manual:
-female trolls are bigger & more powerful than male trolls.
-their language is a mishmash of human's common tongue, & the languages of giants & goblinoid creatures; I point this out to show trolls are much closer to (demi)humans than they are to worms. IIRC, in an old Rogue-like game (based on 1e D&D) you even had the option to make your character a half-troll.
-in their rituals that determine who'll lead the tribe, the loser's head gets tossed a far distance; the loser has to wait a week till they grow a new head. This leads me to believe the troll's regenerative abilities come from it's heart more than its head (re: pituitary gland) - but always a key in that is its blood, which is used in making regeneration, healing, and antidote potions. However, a seemingly contrary point is written in the combat section, saying a severed troll limb can indeed regenerate to a full troll within the space of one week. This leads me to believe that their was miscommunication among game designers or some such when writing up this entry, or perhaps made the mismatch due to trolls operating on Toril maybe having a different physiology from trolls on Krynn.
-a two-headed troll is the product of a troll mating with an ettin.
(BG2 Spoiler)
Further along, in BG2:SoA, you meet a troll that you can speak to. He tells you his mother sent him to live with these hobgoblins to learn how to cook & stuff, and that they cut off its fingers & eat them, but he doesn't mind b/c his fingers grow back. This shows that there's a clear difference between males & females, and their regenerative powers don't exclusively make for multiple trolls to be born out of severed limbs & digits. Though to be sure, I recall an instance in the game where in battle against one specific troll, it severed itself into two smaller trolls; perhaps it was pregnant.
In my homebrew, trolls can die of old age, as in their advanced age their blood isn't as potent as it was for most of their life, thus their regenerative powers dwindle. And while I allow their severed limbs to still (mindlessly) attack, I don't allow it to regenerate into a full grown troll, as I'm hard pressed to account for where it'd get it's soul from - especially if the troll who lost the limb is still alive. While the trolls do have a 'religious' culture wherein a deity grants their shaman's spells, they still aren't a magic heavy culture (their priests only advance to 7th level, and I've yet to hear of a wizard taking a troll on to be his/her apprentice in learning arcane arts) wherein I could fathom them dividing their spirit unto spawning new trolls. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 04:09:34
quote:
Originally posted by Saxmilian
i recall a line in the Streams of Silver when Drizzt and his companions are facing a horde of trolls that went something like "the pieces had to be burned or would regrow into a new troll, many a wolf had feasted on the flesh of a troll only yo have afully formed troll burst free from their innards..." (not a direct quote. I dont have my copy with me right now to find the page). I always thought why wouldnt trolls just tear a finger free to regrow a fellow troll and take over the realms? I've gone by the assumption that such tactics dont ALWAYS work. A new troll might form, or the limb might wither and rot which prevents most trolls from mutilating themselves...then again, I never came up with a decent ratio of success...
Different authors have handled it differently... I prefer to think that a limb would be reattached or would wither, and that were the only options.
Even if trolls could regenerate from the least little bit, where would the extra material come from? There is only so much material in an arm that can be drawn from before there's nothing left. You could say that an arm would try to grow a troll, but realistically, you'd wind up with a bit of shoulder attached to a very bony arm. |
| Saxmilian |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 02:51:54
i recall a line in the Streams of Silver when Drizzt and his companions are facing a horde of trolls that went something like "the pieces had to be burned or would regrow into a new troll, many a wolf had feasted on the flesh of a troll only yo have afully formed troll burst free from their innards..." (not a direct quote. I dont have my copy with me right now to find the page). I always thought why wouldnt trolls just tear a finger free to regrow a fellow troll and take over the realms? I've gone by the assumption that such tactics dont ALWAYS work. A new troll might form, or the limb might wither and rot which prevents most trolls from mutilating themselves...then again, I never came up with a decent ratio of success... |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 23:04:13
Alright, thanks. That helps me out with something I'm working on. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 20:12:23
Vaprak is the father of ogres, which he begat upon Othea (Annam's Wife), which is how trolls and Giants are related, albeit indirectly (they share Ogres as their 'brother').
Annam + Othea = Giants (including Ettins)
Vaprak + Othea = Ogres
Vaprak + {something else} = Trolls
There is also: Ulutiu + Othea = Giantkin... which makes little sense in regards to the new, higher-importance of Fomorians to the greater D&D setting. This is why I decided their are two types - the planer variety, and the Primal (Prime Material) kind - same as all other giants, IMHO (backed-up by the canon of two tiers of Titans, and two tiers of Cyclops).
Cyclops, now that I mentioned them, should probably be: Othea + Gruumsh... but no-one talks about that.
Also note Eladrin and Elves - fairly obvious that there are ancient 'True' (as in, more powerful) forms of nearly every race existing in the Outer (and inner?) Planes. Strangely, fey trolls (we see one in the Moonshae novels, and it has access to fey-gates) are smaller; perhaps they are 'lessened' in the material world through intelligence, rather then physique. Each (ancient) race is greater in the Planes somehow, but that doesn't necessarily equate to immense size.
Hmph. If Elves can evolve into Eladrin (can they? 4e still confuses me) through the Tier system, does that mean that beings born in the Prime Material are somehow 'stunted'; they are like a larval stage that somehow never fully matures?
Fun to think about, anyway. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 08:18:28
Interestingly enough, the head-cleave producing two heads is the 4e reason Demogorgon has two heads. If memory serves there's a ritual cultists of Demogorgon can preform to transform a creature into a two headed version of itself to honor the prince of demons. Could explain some two headed trolls.
Another troll question, unrelated to anatomy; do trolls still worship Vaprak? I remember reading at one point that he was the patron of ogres and trolls, then the sources got edited to take out the bit about trolls, sayinghe was just the patron of ogres. Though his appearance is still closer to a troll than it is to an ogre. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 07:30:36
The only specific case I can recall was in the Moonshae trilogy , and a troll was cutting off his own fingers to grow new trolls.
IIRC, he had some sort of potent magic helping him - perhaps even divine (or fiendish) aid.
Ergo, as I said earlier, it is possible, but only under specific (rare) circumstances. The troll's natural ability must be boosted with some other type of energy (arcane, divine, psionic, etc). That doesn't contradict the MM's, because the MM's are written with the normal-case-scenario in mind.
I love the idea of the two-headed troll coming about after a good head-cleaving - I will have to use that somewhere. 
(Although I'm fairly certain that canonically it occurs from them cross-breeding with Ettins).
Hmmm... that train of thought made me just realize that trolls HAVE TO have a normal two-sex anatomy, and it also has to be fairly similar to the 'human norm', because trolls CAN mate with other creatures (giants in particular - apparently they all had the same mother... or father... or were cousins... something like that...)
I tried looking in the Vikings Campaign Sourcebook last night, but it wasn't much help (those trolls are VERY different - more like D&D Ogres). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Feb 2011 : 06:41:17
I agree with Wooly — my reading of various MM editions shows that severed troll parts will regenerate, or can be reattached, and can in some species even continue to move and fight until this happens. No mention is made of them growing into new trolls. Though, yes, that idea has been suggested in novels and even exploited in certain modules. |
| Quale |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 12:43:25
I looked in Classic Monsters Revisited (PF) for starvation and old age. It says starvation can end a troll’s life. A full-grown adult troll needs up to half its body weight in food every day. After only a few days without sufficient food, a troll’s regenerative abilities cease
to function. Trolls rarely grow to old age cause weakness is feared in both male and female trolls and once signs of it are apparent (an
older female who can’t hunt, for example) the group immediately abandons or even kills the failing member, usually by drowning.
Also it has an interesting introduction where a doctor has dissected a troll but cannot find a divine spark to grow ten trolls out of it. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 08:27:46
MT, the Nightmare incident I'm talking about was in (how shocking) Night Mare, the one about Mare Imbri. Actually, I think the actual exchange was in Ogre, Ogre, but instead of turning the soul in to the Night Stallion, she kept it, and eventually ended up with her own soul. The girl whose half-soul she took (to get across the Void) grew back too, so it ended up being two souls. The other characters who paid with soul pieces all got the missing haf back over time, too.
Like you, I've no read the latest three or four of those books, but I was up to date at least up to book #27 (I think). Those books are great fodder for lots of game ideas, BTW! I even used Xanth as a setting for a D&D-style game once, where all the players were playing as themselves, and got transported to Xanth. I took ideas for various talent types, and everyone had to pick out of a hat to find out what talent they would have. It was lots of fun, and made for a lot of laughs. Good times.... |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 06:59:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and since starfish were mentioned... I believe (I could be mistaken) that with starfish, they need at least a portion of the central body to be able to grow a new starfish. Cutting all the limbs off of the main body, you have one starfish and some dead starfish limbs. Cut the starfish into five equal portions, you get five starfish.
That sounds similar to some type of flatworm. Cut them in half (cross wise or length wise) and you end up with two worms. Cut the head in half length wise and for a short while you have a two headed worm. Eventually it splits into two worms. I wonder if that's how you end up with a two headed troll? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 05:56:19
I was a big fan of the Xanth series in my youth, and I don't recall any of that. 
And I'm usually pretty good at remembering minute details of books I enjoy. Weird.
I'll have to dig those books out soon and re-read them - the nightmare and soul-trading are striking a VERY distant bell. It sounds vaguely familiar.
I read like the first 10, but didn't read any of the later ones (got bored with it). Speaking of which, I had the final book of WoT in my hands at the airport the other day, but I just couldn't bring myself to part with the $30. Paperback by next year, I am sure.
Then finally some closure.
As for trolls, you guys got me thinking about them in whole new light now - my own setting just gets better and better from all this game/fantasy theory we bounce around here. 
This discussion and the vampire one have me going 'back to the drawing board' on a couple of matters (which is great). I was going to go with the classic bridge troll (more dwarf-like), but I think I can fuse both takes.
Maybe bridge-trolls ask for soul pieces.  |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 02:54:11
MT-- There is also the theory (in Piers Anthony's Incarnations books and Xanth series) that a soul which has been "cut" or torn into pieces can also regenerate, as long as at least half of the soul remains. This happened several times in the Xanth books, in fact, when people gave up parts of their souls at payment for a service, (To ride TRUE Nightmares) and the souls eventually regrew their lost halves. The interesting thing about this is that it happened to BOTH halves of a single soul, so that the Nightmares who received the half in payment eventually ended up with full souls of their own. I would speculate that this is why Manshoon was able to have multiple clones all awaken at once- perhaps the spell or ritual to create a clone also requires tearing off pieces of the original soul to inhabit them! (I think I just found the "secret ingredient" of the clone spells!!) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 01:15:56
I seem to recall something about them being near-immortal as well. I figure they are like Sharks - they keep growing and growing until something kills them (or they die from lack of enough food to sustain such a massive form). There are Giant trolls, you know.
On a fantasy world, they will eventually piss something off enough (probably by de-populating the game over a large area) that something WILL hunt them down and kill them, be it angry humans, dwarves, elves, or even a black dragon (there is canon saying at least one black dragon and several breed of giants chased the trolls out of the trollmoors, hence the newer name 'The Evermoors').
I do not think troll parts can regenerate new trolls, except under special circumstances - such happened in the Moonshaes series (where one troll created an army by cutting off his fingers each night). powerful magics are required to 'boost' the trolls natural healing abilities for this sort of cloning effect to work (else, why would trolls even have sexes?)quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
So are clones, but no one seems to have a problem with that one.
I do.
Only one copy of something should (normally) be allowed - you can't copy a spirit (or soul).
HOWEVER, I theorized about Horcruxes (Harry Potter) being a similar magic to phylactories, and so it is theoretically possible to split a single soul into several pieces (I believe I came up with that whilst thinking abut how Larloch may have several phylactories, and one would have to destroy them all). If we picture the human body - or anybody, for that matter - as a living phylactory (Soul cage, Spirit Snare, whatever), then we can see how something like the Manshoon clones were possible (each having a small bit of the original soul). In fact, it could be this very thing that forces cloned individuals to seek out the others and destroy them; some sort of metaphysical impulse to re-unite its shattered soul. I would say it would also cause madness over time. Considering our two primary examples - Manshoon and Halaster's 'current' condition - I'd say insanity is definitely part of the price one pays for segmenting one's soul.
As for trolls... maybe thats why they are the way they are. Normally they breed just like most races, but under special circumstances (like when they are near wild magic fluctuations, etc..) they can regenerate from pieces, so the spirit of the troll is continually split over and over, until they are stark, raving mad feral creatures.
Perhaps the first trolls were a great and noble people, and they discovered a way to use their natural regenerative abilities to replicate themselves, and cause their own decline in barbarism. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head? Maybe trolls all started out like the Irda of Dragonlance.
And then we have the Deep Spawn. 
Not sure what to do there - new souls? Souless? By reading the Spawn Wars entry on pg.37 of the GHotR, it appears at least some of the dwarfs were going mad as well. That would indicate they were also among the 'short-souled', but I can't imagine the mechanic behind that: Each time the creature spits out another, the others all grow weaker (spiritually)?
It also makes me have to ponder a deeper issue, if having 'less soul' makes you nuts, it would imply that you are shifting toward chaos (and aberrations), rather then evil. That's an intriguing possibility, but one I am not sure I can reconcile with some of my other musings. Ergo, souls can be good, and souls can be bad, but no soul = REALLY bad (as in, Cthulhu-bad). I suppose that makes sense - even fiends love souls.
EDIT: I just thought of another related reference - an episode of the TV show Ugly Amercicans where the wizard regenerates, but because the pieces weren't all kept together he turned into a hundred little men all trying to kill each other (and getting bigger with each kill). Not sure if I want to use that ridiculous show to back up an argument, though.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 00:27:28
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Aren't trolls referred to sometimes as "The Forever People?" Am I making that up? I can't find any reference in a quick run through the books at hand.
Ah, the Forever People. One of Jack Kirby's finest creations at DC.
I'm sure I dropped them into my Realms somewhere. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 22:33:24
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
For what it's worth, on the question of whether or not a new troll grows from a severed limb, I'd be inclined to say no.
The closest the 3.5 Monster Manual comes to saying anything about the subject is this:
quote:
If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.
The 4E Monster Manual says this:
quote:
Their regeneration is so powerful, in fact, that trolls can regrow severed body parts.
So neither edition's core rules on trolls specifically says, and given the context and diction of the other lore given, I think the rules would say if they did sprout clones starfish style. I also have a couple of questions about why the world would not be quickly overrun with trolls once the trolls themselves figured this out, were it true.
None of which is to say, of course, that they can't merrily do whatever you want them to do in your game.
I quite agree with you. However, in the fiction, it's been said more than once that any bit of a troll that remains unattached will grow a new troll. This adds emphasis to the difficult-to-kill aspect of trolls, but pushes believability rather much.
Here's a thought, though: if it is indeed true that trolls regenerate from any little piece, then all trolls could be descended from one original troll!
Oh, and since starfish were mentioned... I believe (I could be mistaken) that with starfish, they need at least a portion of the central body to be able to grow a new starfish. Cutting all the limbs off of the main body, you have one starfish and some dead starfish limbs. Cut the starfish into five equal portions, you get five starfish. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 22:26:42
I suppose you can brand trolls, just like cattle. To tell them apart.
Troll scars must fade over time, just as they would for any other creature. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 22:03:26
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Aren't trolls referred to sometimes as "The Forever People?" Am I making that up? I can't find any reference in a quick run through the books at hand.
Hey a term can be used that is not true.
Trolls by their nature can appear to last forever, appearance is not fact. All source I have seen does indicate they die of old age if not suffering a premature death by acid or fire. Besides all trolls look the same *wink* that one that you killed last week only appears to be still living because, wife, brother, sister, son or daughter shows up. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 21:47:46
I do recall that term from somewhere, CR. I don't remember where. Wikipedia says Forever People are a bunch of superheroes from DC Comics (none of which I've ever read, so it's unlikely I've ever heard about these characters). |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 21:18:17
Aren't trolls referred to sometimes as "The Forever People?" Am I making that up? I can't find any reference in a quick run through the books at hand. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 20:52:15
Trolls can get scarred or maimed. All fire and acid wounds that they sustain are "remembered" by their physiology and show up, even after they remove their scarred extremety or head they regenerate their parts anew complete with exactly the same scars as afore.
So the idea of searing shut the neck after beheading or totally torching its head with fire or acid would make life for such a troll impossible. Living without a head makes it unable to eat.
Trolls that are ravenously hungry are known to eat one of their own limbs for nourishment. So no, trolls don't need to die of starvation.
Another viable way for trolls to die somewhat easily and leave a corpse that makes a fine trophy or target for necromancy is suffocation or drownage. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 20:36:22
A Slayer's Guide to Trolls sounds very interesting (and well thought out) but, alas, my players and I have long been greatly amused with ridiculous-regeneration Gygax trolls. Troll torching is a celebrated tradition, much like kobold punting ... it's just too much fun to take away. I don't wanna nerf my trolls.
My trophy question really boils down to asking whether a piece of (clean) troll bone continues to regenerate. In normal biology the answer is definitely no, yet in D&D a troll can quickly regrow limbs. Are bleached troll bones scattered across the land (leftovers from incomplete burnings, perhaps)?
Trolls are always hungry. Can they die of starvation? |
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