| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 05 Sep 2010 : 04:31:24
I read the part where fey'ri count as elves for all effects and it got me wondering...what about elven prestige classes? What about the elfblades? And, assuming for the sake of argument that it's not a moon-elf exclusive item, how about a "good" fey'ri and Moonblades?
Personally I say yes to the prestige classes, excepting Elven High Mage. I'm not sure about the elfblades, but I say no to Moonblades.
What do all of you think? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Penknight |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 01:06:43
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Oops! you're right, good sir! I got them mixed up for some reason. Call it a blonde elf moment!!   
- Oh, not a problem at all! I've done the same thing myself a few times.  |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 23:08:39
Oops! you're right, good sir! I got them mixed up for some reason. Call it a blonde elf moment!! |
| Penknight |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 21:43:58
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, only one ofthem- the Ruler's Blade- actually kills if not wielded by the right kind of person. The Art Blade casues you to loose ability to use magic, and I forget what the Soldier's Blade does. The others were made for dwarf, halfling, and human owners, I believe. There were five (or was it six?) in all. The soldier's Blade was eventually found by Josidiah Starym after he went into the Underdark through the Twisted Tower to find the Art Blade. (I REALLY want to do the CC write-up on how he got it back and lost Guenhwyvar in the process!)
Actually, you have that backwards. Josidiah Starym went to retrieve the Warblade, but he came back in 674 DR wielding the fabled Artblade.
Here's the history on Josidiah. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 18:41:24
Actually, only one ofthem- the Ruler's Blade- actually kills if not wielded by the right kind of person. The Art Blade casues you to loose ability to use magic, and I forget what the Soldier's Blade does. The others were made for dwarf, halfling, and human owners, I believe. There were five (or was it six?) in all. The soldier's Blade was eventually found by Josidiah Starym after he went into the Underdark through the Twisted Tower to find the Art Blade. (I REALLY want to do the CC write-up on how he got it back and lost Guenhwyvar in the process!) |
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 02:11:28
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Uh, Those are all very unique blades, and one has to meet several requirements to wield any of them. I seem to recall that at least two of them are reserved for the leaders of the army of Cormanthyr. And one is the "Ruler's Blade" of the Coronal! I doubt a fey'ri would ever be allowed that one. Some of the others, perhaps, but only after some VERY distinguished service....
The Srinshee(sp?) has the Ruler's Blade in Avrandor. The others are all still lost I believe. The Elfblades are nearly as picky as Moonblades, if you're not the right race(they are not all wielded by elves) and the right alignment, and have the right class/skills/abilities, or they just plain don't like you....you are in for a world of hurt. |
| Joran Nobleheart |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 01:41:25
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So far as I know, Elaine created moonblades.
Wooly has the right of it. Moonblades were created in the novel Elfshadow.
Ok, thank you! I really enjoyed and enjoy reading over those novels. Must have read them a good ten or twelve times in the last few years. She tells an amazing story!  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 01:39:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So far as I know, Elaine created moonblades.
Wooly has the right of it. Moonblades were created in the novel Elfshadow. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 01:13:58
Uh, Those are all very unique blades, and one has to meet several requirements to wield any of them. I seem to recall that at least two of them are reserved for the leaders of the army of Cormanthyr. And one is the "Ruler's Blade" of the Coronal! I doubt a fey'ri would ever be allowed that one. Some of the others, perhaps, but only after some VERY distinguished service.... |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 00:59:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So far as I know, Elaine created moonblades.
While I wouldn't hand a fey'ri a moonblade, I wouldn't have an issue with creating some other type of elf-specific blade and letting a fey'ri have it.
The Elfblades of Cormanthyr (LEoF, pg 157-159) might work well in this regard. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Sep 2010 : 00:24:56
So far as I know, Elaine created moonblades.
While I wouldn't hand a fey'ri a moonblade, I wouldn't have an issue with creating some other type of elf-specific blade and letting a fey'ri have it. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 19:56:03
That would really be a shame. I'd like to see it happen, actually- assuming there's a good reason, of course. I had an item similar to a Moonblade in one of my campaigns, that was a family heirloom sword that had special powers for the elf of that family who used it, and was even more powerful when using the accompanying mask (it was an Oriental elven clan in a kingdom I created based on feudal Japanese culture, and the items together allowed one to summon the clan's spirit guardian.) |
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 17:54:10
I still haven't read the books pertinent to Moonblades, but I have finished scanning the scroll http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/lore_ec.htm for Moonblade content.
Getting back to the original topic of this thread I feel more justified than ever in saying that even a "good" and truly "noble" fey'ri could never wield a Moonblade. |
| Joran Nobleheart |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 16:34:51
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
New Canon trumps.
While I understand Elaine not being happy, her novels were trumped.
What exactly is the "new canon" position here? Could someone fill me in, please?
I guess I'm not entirely clear on this dilemma. It has to do with Rich Baker's story in Realms of the Elves, which near as I can tell, features a sun elf heir to a noble house searching for the moonblade of his mother's cousin's house (Morvaeril), in the hopes of claiming it for himself, and it ends up in the hands of a half-elf (and is it clearly specified where her heritage comes from?).
What I'm not sure of is whether there's moon elf blood in these houses--are we certain Morvaeril is *definitely* a sun elf house?
Also, we should bear in mind that in a world where people can sling fireballs by making funny finger gestures at other people, exceptions are more a rule than an exception. The way mortals understand magic to work is not necessarily the way magic works: they may see much of the picture, or their understanding might just encompass the tip of the iceberg.
Cheers
Ah, I see. I appreciate your telling me about this, and I actually read that particular story a long while back. I'll not say more on it than that. You're right about it being more of a rule than an exception, and I feel that's the perfect way to put it, really.
By the way, were moonblades specifically Mrs. Cunningham's idea, or was the idea given to her from TSR? Sort of a, "We have this idea for an elven item called a moonblade, and would like you to write about it for us in your next book," or was it her idea from start to finish? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 14:58:36
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
New Canon trumps.
While I understand Elaine not being happy, her novels were trumped.
What exactly is the "new canon" position here? Could someone fill me in, please?
I guess I'm not entirely clear on this dilemma. It has to do with Rich Baker's story in Realms of the Elves, which near as I can tell, features a sun elf heir to a noble house searching for the moonblade of his mother's cousin's house (Morvaeril), in the hopes of claiming it for himself, and it ends up in the hands of a half-elf (and is it clearly specified where her heritage comes from?).
What I'm not sure of is whether there's moon elf blood in these houses--are we certain Morvaeril is *definitely* a sun elf house?
Also, we should bear in mind that in a world where people can sling fireballs by making funny finger gestures at other people, exceptions are more a rule than an exception. The way mortals understand magic to work is not necessarily the way magic works: they may see much of the picture, or their understanding might just encompass the tip of the iceberg.
Cheers
|
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 07:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
New Canon trumps.
While I understand Elaine not being happy, her novels were trumped.
What exactly is the "new canon" position here? Could someone fill me in, please?
Unfortunately I haven't read the pertinent novels yet, but the difference of opinion seems to be implied intent of the author vs printed game mechanics.
As far as I know, the most recent in-print game mechanics are in Magic of Faerun pg 170-171. It says an elf or half-elf (of the same family if the blade is active) of the same alignment as that particular Moonblade may attempt to claim it. Other than it pretty much leaves it to DM discretion.
|
| Joran Nobleheart |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 06:40:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
New Canon trumps.
While I understand Elaine not being happy, her novels were trumped.
What exactly is the "new canon" position here? Could someone fill me in, please? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 04:57:43
New Canon trumps.
While I understand Elaine not being happy, her novels were trumped.
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 17:33:21
So I think strictly-canonically, going by precedent established in Elaine's books about Moonblades, only characters with moon elf heritage can wield moonblades. Pureblood sun elves, wood elves, drow, etc., are SOL.
That doesn't mean, however, that your PCs who lack moon elf descent can't use something similar.
There is plenty of room in the canon for a corrupted moonblade (one whose powers function a little or a lot differently and open themselves to various users of elf heritage) or a previously undiscovered version of the weapon called a "sunblade" that attunes itself with sun elves (not to be confused with the human sunblade, which might actually be a derivative of one particular form of elven sunblade).
Also, feyri (due to their demonic ancestry) might produce new and dark effects by trying to claim a moonblade (this might be what corrupts it in the first place).
Also, as noted above, your elves can be of mixed heritage (possibly without knowing it). Fey'ri are not necessarily *all* sun elf/demon--there might be a little moon elf that got tangled into the mix there, possibly a wayward/abducted heir of a mighty moon elf bloodline.
Lots of options--do what's cool for your game, and don't worry about explaining it too much unless it benefits the story!
Cheers |
| Penknight |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 04:04:00
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
BTW. Are the Moonblades (or at least one of them) stated somewhere? And if not, what mechanics and what kind of powers could they follow/have? Something like Legacy Weapons?
All that debating about the Blades made my curious. :P
Well 2nd Edition stated them as starting with +1 to +4 with at least one special ability. As the current, enabled wielder, passed on (with some debate as to if they went to Arvandor or their spirit entered the blade) adding power to the blade.
That is not two Moonblades will be the same, some gained a plus per transition, some gained another special ability.
The special abilities range from charm person, to fly, to sharpness, dancing, flying, and heal with about 20 more various spell effects.
Yes. And they're located in Elves of Evermeet if you need to find them. It's a wonderful, timeless sourcebook, really. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 03:54:10
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The fact that so few blade are left active, is really what would make it harder at this point- not that the gold elves aren't worthy by blood.
There were not a great many of them made to begin with, but any that were not out and out destroyed can still be claimed even if they were never claimed or their family died out. As per Magic of Faerun the only requirements (game mechanics wise) for a claimant to be excepted are: elf or half-elf, matching good (usually neutral-good) alignment, the ceremony must meet certain requirements (suggestions are in a royal throne room or place sacred to an elven deity),and DM's discretion.
It does also say that claimants who have cowardly or selfish acts must have atoned for those actions in some way.
This is precisely the point I was trying to make. Thanks, IK. |
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 03:07:46
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
BTW. Are the Moonblades (or at least one of them) stated somewhere? And if not, what mechanics and what kind of powers could they follow/have? Something like Legacy Weapons?
All that debating about the Blades made my curious. :P
You can find the 3e interpretation in Magic of Faerūn.
Page 170 |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 02:58:51
quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
BTW. Are the Moonblades (or at least one of them) stated somewhere? And if not, what mechanics and what kind of powers could they follow/have? Something like Legacy Weapons?
All that debating about the Blades made my curious. :P
Well 2nd Edition stated them as starting with +1 to +4 with at least one special ability. As the current, enabled wielder, passed on (with some debate as to if they went to Arvandor or their spirit entered the blade) adding power to the blade.
That is not two Moonblades will be the same, some gained a plus per transition, some gained another special ability.
The special abilities range from charm person, to fly, to sharpness, dancing, flying, and heal with about 20 more various spell effects. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 02:43:45
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
I do see what you are saying Wooly. But just because those sun elves did not have the right stuff, does not mean that it is impossible for there to be a sun elf with all the qualities the Moonblades are looking for. Unless they were programmed at creation to exclude sun elves. Thus , in my campaign, a sun elf could one day come to wield a Moonblade. This would only be a hypothetical situation though as I do not intend to put a Moonblade in play for anyone: PC, NPC, moon elf, sun elf or anyone else.
The only way I would change my mind is a canon source saying the Moonblades were created to only except moon elves, or a canon source to state that sun elves are genetically incapable of being racially tolerant/accepting enough to qualify as a ruler of Evermeet.
All that said, I have no problem with others adjudicating the question differently.
There's a simple *fix* for this. Simply suggest that your character is a distant relative of mixed gold and moon elven blood who then came into possession of the sword. The moonblade didn't have any particular problem with this, so it eventually allowed itself to be wielded by gold elves that it felt were worthy of the blade. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 02:34:49
quote:
Originally posted by HelldoG
BTW. Are the Moonblades (or at least one of them) stated somewhere? And if not, what mechanics and what kind of powers could they follow/have? Something like Legacy Weapons?
All that debating about the Blades made my curious. :P
You can find the 3e interpretation in Magic of Faerūn.
|
| HelldoG |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 01:49:18
BTW. Are the Moonblades (or at least one of them) stated somewhere? And if not, what mechanics and what kind of powers could they follow/have? Something like Legacy Weapons?
All that debating about the Blades made my curious. :P |
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 01:22:49
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The fact that so few blade are left active, is really what would make it harder at this point- not that the gold elves aren't worthy by blood.
There were not a great many of them made to begin with, but any that were not out and out destroyed can still be claimed even if they were never claimed or their family died out. As per Magic of Faerun the only requirements (game mechanics wise) for a claimant to be excepted are: elf or half-elf, matching good (usually neutral-good) alignment, the ceremony must meet certain requirements (suggestions are in a royal throne room or place sacred to an elven deity),and DM's discretion.
It does also say that claimants who have cowardly or selfish acts must have atoned for those actions in some way.
|
| Ionik Knight |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 01:08:30
I do see what you are saying Wooly. But just because those sun elves did not have the right stuff, does not mean that it is impossible for there to be a sun elf with all the qualities the Moonblades are looking for. Unless they were programmed at creation to exclude sun elves. Thus , in my campaign, a sun elf could one day come to wield a Moonblade. This would only be a hypothetical situation though as I do not intend to put a Moonblade in play for anyone: PC, NPC, moon elf, sun elf or anyone else.
The only way I would change my mind is a canon source saying the Moonblades were created to only accept moon elves, or a canon source to state that sun elves are genetically incapable of being racially tolerant/accepting enough to qualify as a ruler of Evermeet.
All that said, I have no problem with others adjudicating the question differently.
On a slightly different note, what pc in their right mind wants to be bonded for life to a weapon that eliminates the possibility of being raised or resurrected? After all as soon as they die part of their soul gets sucked in to power the thing. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 00:54:22
To be honest, I don't know of any besides the wood elves who even TRIED. As to the attempts at the beginning, I'd say it had more to do with the fact that all the gold elf families that tried were in it only for the chance to become the ruler, not that they had any concern for the best interests of the elven people. Many tried and failed, yes, but the same thing happened with a lot of the moon elves who tried, too. Some families lost ALL their heirs in the attempt, and that's not just the gold elves. It may be that the moon elves ARE more adaptable and understanding, but there have been plenty of gold elves who are just as much so. Coronal Eltargrim of Cormanthor was one, and honestly, I can't think of any elf who would have had a better chance of wielding one! The fact that so few blade are left active, is really what would make it harder at this point- not that the gold elves aren't worthy by blood.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 00:31:08
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I can't help but notice that no one replied to my earlier statement. Several gold elf families still have unclaimed Moonblades, so it's not inconceivable that one of them might have a worthy blade-heir among them. Not saying it's likely, but it IS possible. Josidiah was just one example of a possible candidate. And given that his mother was a Moon elf, he might qualify based on that alone, in spite of "technically" being a gold elf. So there's really no reason a good fey-ri could not also.
The reason I wouldn't allow in my campaign is the Moonblades intended purpose of selecting a ruler to unify the elves of Evermeet. Somehow I don't think a fey'ri ruler would be very unifying, even if they were the epitome of fairness, justice, wisdom, and goodness.
Some folks (not me) hold that a "Moon" blade can only be wielded by a worthy "Moon" elf. I differ because I do not believe such selection criteria could ever unify the elves under one ruler...the intended purpose of these relics after all.
The purpose wasn't to unite the elves. The purpose was to select a ruler for Evermeet. And the reason moon elves were favored for this was because moon elves are more adaptable and more likely to get along with other races.
I think if gold elves were capable of wielding moonblades, we would have seen it by now. Especially in the very first drawing of the blades, when the blades were easier to be worthy of.
The purpose of the Moonblades was indeed to select a good/worthy/noble ruler of Evermeet. The purpose of Evermeet was to provide a retreat for all elves. Since the ruler of Evermeet would have to reign over a large segment of sun elves; it seems highly unlikely to me that sun elves would be excluded from the selection process. Thus I would say the reasons pure-blooded sun elves have failed to claim a blade are personal character flaws.
As a disclaimer let me say I've never read the novels that talk about Moonblades. If there is something in those that states moon elves were favored or sun elves were barred please let me know.
BTW I hope you're enjoying the discussion as much as I.
Sun elves were allowed to try. Every one that tried, died. And that was before the blades had ever been wielded -- as they gain more and more powers, it becomes more difficult to be worthy of them. So it they weren't worthy when each blade was a blank slate, it's really unlikely that they'll be worthy further down the line.
Any ruler of Evermeet would have to rule over a number of elves of a different elven subrace. Which would make the better ruler -- one who would try to work with those other subraces, or ones that would proclaim that it's only natural for lesser races to be ruled by them?
Gold elves were never explicitly ruled out, but even the guy who created the blades recommended that only moon elves try to draw the blades. And in the book, knowing that they were likely to die because of this, there were still gold elves tripping all over themselves to try drawing a moonblade.
So we have them called moonblades, we have their creator saying he didn't think gold elves could handle them, and we have no gold elf wielders, despite dozens of attempts on day one. Sounds pretty definitive to me.
Also note that sea elves, dark elves, and green elves were also excluded. Ditto lythari and avariel, and even star elves, if you want to include them. Yet I've never heard any complaints about them being left out... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Sep 2010 : 00:22:24
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty sure all the fey'ri are of gold elf descent, which rules out moonblades, regardless of alignment.
So, Arilyn should never have a moonblade.
As Diffan noted, she's half-moon elf. Her grandfather was the one with the Kingsword. As far has her elven blood is concerned, she couldn't have a better bloodline.
She's half-human too. So his elven blood is as tainted as a half human as a fey'ri. Elaine don't stop of remember this to us in his novels. Just question of point of view and I'm sure that every DM have yours. But, let me ask you something. If Arylin had a Fey'ri mother, the moonblade would accept her?
If not, then you wouldn't accept fey'ri with moonblade in your game in any circunstances.
If so, then Daemonfey can have moonblades.
Particularly, I allow PCs playing good and nobles Fey'ri swing moonblades against her foes.
P.S.: Nice topic!!! Very good debate!
The issue wasn't her human blood. The issue was her moon elf blood -- which is something fey'ri don't have. |
|
|
