| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 16:30:41
No no, it's nothing against marriage as an institution--rather, it's talking about how marriage often dooms characters who get married in a novel. 
This is equal parts regarding FR novels and, to an extent, all fantasy novels (and other literature) in general.
It comes from something rather astute Lady Fellshot said in the Gauntlgrym novel thread, in which she was addressing a point about a certain character's seeming irrelevance after she got married (not being more specific, as that opens the SPOILERS door).
The quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Didn't you get the memo? Female characters in fantasy aren't narratively important after they get married.
The point is a good one, though I think there are a good number of exceptions. I'm thinking, in particular, of Catelyn Stark in Song of Ice and Fire, or Queen Ysandre in the Kusheline series, etc., list goes on--powerful married females who lose none of their usefulness or "narrative importance" based on the fact they are *married*.
On the other hand, the point is totally valid: most "just married" characters completely fade from importance. Why is that?
From a writing standpoint, I think marriage is sort of an "end-state" in a fantasy novel: once you go there, you fundamentally alter the role of the character (who was, up until then, a romantic interest/quarry, and is now something *caught* in a sense), and I don't think many characters (male or female) can necessarily survive that sort of complete and total revision.
(I also posted more on my blog about this, but it's basically an essay, so I didn't want to clog everything here: http://eriksdb.livejournal.com/263370.html)
What say you, astute scribes?
Cheers |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 20:14:57
Even my editor agreed with me when I treated marriage as sometimes an accessory and often mere celebration, never an end. Marriage as an embarkation of "happily ever after" is better left for fairy tales.
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| ZeshinX |
Posted - 29 Aug 2010 : 03:42:33
The television series Dexter is quite an interesting approach to this, given that Dexter is something of an anti-hero.
I can't say anymore for those who may wish to follow the series, since there would be way too many spoilers.  |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 21:42:56
Well said, everyone!
@RLB: The Mummy 2 (Mummy Returns) as well! 
I'm actually planning on a wedding at the end of the trilogy I'm currently outlining . . . but it's not a happily ever after sort of wedding. It really just launches the next trilogy. (Can I ever end a book happily? Hmm . . .)
Cheers |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 14:48:21
Lady Fellshot: Brendan Fraser's third Mummy movie is by no means a classic of the cinema. But one thing I thought it did well was examining and then vehemently rejecting the idea that marriage was or should be the end of the heroes' adventuring careers. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 06:20:18
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Another question, however, to sort of invert the argument: I'm curious as to whether marriage *should* be used as a tool (at least on occasion) to signal the endpoint of an adventurer's career. For example, do you like it when a book/trilogy ends in marriage? If a romance between two characters is an active subplot, then what's wrong with having the end of the series be them finally getting it on . . . er, I mean, getting together.
I'm not saying everytime, or that it should be an assumption--just is it a valid tool?
Cheers
The thing is that "ending with wedding bells" has been used so much and so often that it might have passed beyond the realm of narrative trope and right into cliche territory. From a girl's point of view, it gets downright depressing to be told so repetitively that adventuring ends with wedding bells and babies.
Besides when marriage is used to signal the end of an adventuring career, there's an assumption that leaving the life of running around and killing monsters, robbing despots and overthrowing evil overlords is easy. I find that this rather fails to take into account whatever enemies that a retired adventurer might have left behind and how they might react when they discover that their quarry has children.
There's really no reason the narrative should stop with wedding bells. It just seems that it is far too frequently used as such. Maybe everyone's uncomfortable with the idea of bringing up kids in a nomadic lifestyle or something. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 02:44:30
A reason to end story with marriage ... while I do not think there should be required things like.
The characters have achieved high level and should retire and marriage is the final goal of both.
A time jump is planned and child(ren)take up adventuring with a true blood line. Short lived human families can have some very long lived friends that would be aided more if the character can say I am the Son of (foo) fro the land of (foo).
When writing a trilogy, the 4th book discussing the honeymoon and or settling into domestic life for some wold not have appeal. There also can be child baring segments should the couple have children. Both however could be dealt with with brief descriptions and time jumps. There is no reason that parents can not adventure with their child.
I might be able to come up with a few other reasons a series should end with marriage, however I can also come up with ways to work around the reasons to end the story. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 01:35:41
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I think that in a sense, when you end a story with the victorious male and female leads hooking up, you're giving them a reward for defeating the bad guy. And if the readers like the leads and have been rooting for them, they like that.
It is something of a reward... After all the struggle, then the leads can live a life of peace, without all the conflict that got them to that point. The reward for fighting the good fight is to be freed from the need to fight. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 18:09:10
I think that in a sense, when you end a story with the victorious male and female leads hooking up, you're giving them a reward for defeating the bad guy. And if the readers like the leads and have been rooting for them, they like that. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 15:33:25
Thanks for the examples, dennis! (Though we probably could have done without the reminder of the existence of sparkly vampires. )
In case my own opinion in this thread is unclear, I agree that marriage can and should be used not as an endpoint but as a milestone marker that enhances a character.
Another question, however, to sort of invert the argument: I'm curious as to whether marriage *should* be used as a tool (at least on occasion) to signal the endpoint of an adventurer's career. For example, do you like it when a book/trilogy ends in marriage? If a romance between two characters is an active subplot, then what's wrong with having the end of the series be them finally getting it on . . . er, I mean, getting together.
I'm not saying everytime, or that it should be an assumption--just is it a valid tool?
Cheers |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 06:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I would like someone to pull up an example of heroes for whom romance is a significant subplot, they get married (by default, resolving that subplot), and continue to be compelling thereafter as main, central characters of the story. So we can talk about how that was handled and why it worked.
Hey?
Cheers
In FR, I can only think of Shandril and her husband (forgot the name), Mirt and Asper (they got married, right?), and El and the Simbul who may not have made the sacred vow but practically a married couple in essence.
Outside FR, there are a lot....Here are some:
Queen Aglaranna of the elves in Raymond Feist's Riftwar Cycle novels. Though married to a lord, a human and an Ancient One, who is more powerful than she was, she maintained her sovereign and her husband was simply referred as the Consort, not the King.
Queen Betsy in MJ Davidson's Undead series. Despite her marriage, she continues to be a funny, adventurous, annoying (to the pesky vamps), and extraordinarily fun and bubbly queen of the vampires.
Miranda in Feist's novels. Her marriage to the world's greatest sorcerer made her more involved, complex, and adventurous. Her husband didn't dwarf her roles in the books; instead, their marriage made them a formidable duo. (And I don't know why Feist killed her...Maybe he wants his greatest creation, Pug, to end up miserable at the end of the Riftwar Cycle...)
Miranda Priestley in The Devil Wears Prada. A devil I might like for a grandmother  . She's perhaps one of the greatest role models of women's independence (from men and everything).
Bella in the Twilight Saga. Her marriage to Edward was not a conclusion to her vampy adventures; if anything, it made her role in the series shine more, as her powers were eventually revealed. (Though of course, the battle against the Volturi (that never happened) where she could have made good use of her abilities, was such a big disappointment.)
Marriage is never an end, nor a character's doom. In fantasy and all other genre in literature, I think authors have already veered from that ancient belief, and simply look at marriage more as a celebration of the heroes's love. Heh, some even use it to add more complex elements to the characters. Even in my own books, marriage never has become an end nor a hero's doom.
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| Zireael |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 13:32:29
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
This just struck me, so apologies if it's not very eloquent and much too shirt, but...
By the time of Elminster in Hell, the old mage and the Simbul are pretty much de facto married, and that is pretty darn important to the plot.
Seconded.
@ above: In the Return of the Archmages, we see quite a lot of Khelben/Laeral. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 05:39:15
This just struck me, so apologies if it's not very eloquent and much too shirt, but...
By the time of Elminster in Hell, the old mage and the Simbul are pretty much de facto married, and that is pretty darn important to the plot. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 22:27:31
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Erik, I have been thinking about your question when something came to mine.
In Ed's replies marriage was never required or expected, An elf could have a consort for 700 years and that was acceptable, perhaps even common. Such relationships did not end adventuring, such couple adventure together and sometimes apart depending on their life goals.
Marriage as end of story most likely is a result of Earthly writers providing their own values on when the story ends. As for FR characters ISTR that Blackstaff married one of the Seven Sisters (Laeral) and their story did not end.
Their story did not end, true.
But remember, story does not equal marketable novel(s). Yes, Khelben and Laeral's story is a long one, fraught with adventure, heartbreak, searching and love.
But there was only ONE novel written about Khelben, and that ended with his death. And in it, Khelben and Laeral had already been married for years. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 21:56:53
Erik, I have been thinking about your question when something came to mine.
In Ed's replies marriage was never required or expected, An elf could have a consort for 700 years and that was acceptable, perhaps even common. Such relationships did not end adventuring, such couple adventure together and sometimes apart depending on their life goals.
Marriage as end of story most likely is a result of Earthly writers providing their own values on when the story ends. As for FR characters ISTR that Blackstaff married one of the Seven Sisters (Laeral) and their story did not end. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 19:29:31
Sage, that's poetry right there.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
For us, marriage is the ultimate "RPG campaign experience." 
So in that kind of campaign, what happens when you roll a natural 20?
Nothing bad, I'll tell you that much--possibly naughty, but not bad.
Cheers
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 16:06:29
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the main bias against marriage is the fact that for most, marriage is "settling down". Sure, there's nothing stopping a married couple from continuing to adventure, but for many, marriage is seen as an entirely different kind of adventure: making a quiet, peaceful life and raising a family.
Heh. The Lady K and I have tended to approach this subject in a matter that revolves around regarding marriage as "the ultimate adventure." The great "Undiscovered Country" that we, as intrepid explorers, were lucky enough to find and settle first. Sure, we hit some rough territory now and then, but the challenge of exploring something wholesome, virgin, and vast... beckons us forward, with new surprises and new side-quests [as we tend to call them] around each and every corner. And our love for each other has only strengthened because of this exploration. For us, marriage is the ultimate "RPG campaign experience."
So in that kind of campaign, what happens when you roll a natural 20? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 15:55:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the main bias against marriage is the fact that for most, marriage is "settling down". Sure, there's nothing stopping a married couple from continuing to adventure, but for many, marriage is seen as an entirely different kind of adventure: making a quiet, peaceful life and raising a family.
Heh. The Lady K and I have tended to approach this subject in a matter that revolves around regarding marriage as "the ultimate adventure." The great "Undiscovered Country" that we, as intrepid explorers, were lucky enough to find and settle first. Sure, we hit some rough territory now and then, but the challenge of exploring something wholesome, virgin, and vast... beckons us forward, with new surprises and new side-quests [as we tend to call them] around each and every corner. And our love for each other has only strengthened because of this exploration. For us, marriage is the ultimate "RPG campaign experience." |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 15:51:23
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
If we are talking about TSR/WotC novels here the best example of a married adventuring couple and their relationships would probably be in the old Knight of...books by Roland J Green for the Dragonlance line. Strangely enough I think I am the only one who liked those books. Any comments Sage?
Oh, Knights of the Rose... most definitely. Excellent example, BTW, Jorkens. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 15:17:22
I think the main bias against marriage is the fact that for most, marriage is "settling down". Sure, there's nothing stopping a married couple from continuing to adventure, but for many, marriage is seen as an entirely different kind of adventure: making a quiet, peaceful life and raising a family. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 14:08:32
If we are talking about TSR/WotC novels here the best example of a married adventuring couple and their relationships would probably be in the old Knight of...books by Roland J Green for the Dragonlance line. Strangely enough I think I am the only one who liked those books. Any comments Sage? |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 23:39:50
Clearly I should check back more often...
The big thing about marriage and the retirement of female characters as a side effect is one that comes from older literature. It's something of a joke that all of Shakespeare's comedies end in wedding bells, the prince rescues the princess and happily ever after ensues. Since it's repeated in stories ad nauseum, it's become an "acceptable" way to end a story, particularly those meant for younger readers (fairy tales especially).
One of the things that I've also noticed is that in the more "classic" fantasy literature, Married females who appear and participate actively in the narrative have frequently been married for a while, have grown children and have garnered some clout for themselves in some area.
Taking these two tidbits into a broader context, the disappearance of a newlywed woman from the narrative seems to indicate that she's supposed to get pregnant and raise children. It also seems like this is a character place that is deemed "not relevant" to older models of fantasy stories. Maybe it's because child rearing isn't exactly the best time to go running off to slay dragons and dupe Zhents.
There are exceptions to the standard though (Kate Elliott's Crossroads Trilogy springs to mind, as does Jim C. Hine's Princess books) and I'm seeing it more occur more frequently in more recent releases (thought it might just be limited to what I've been reading). |
| BEAST |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 17:57:47
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also note: Generally speaking, porn has nothing to do with romantic tension and is really a whole 'nother discussion.
Well, that was kinda exactly my point, E. It is an extreme example of the prevailing unwillingness to depict a fuller, prolonged development of relationships, which is what I thought you were talking about, here. Various "artists" choose to zero in on certain specific, narrowly defined aspects of romantic relationships, instead of exploring them in greater depth and duration. And that leaves most of us wanting more.
quote:
One that tends to get sealed pretty fast when we start it, eh mods?
ĦAy, caramba! |
| khorne |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 13:14:47
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I would like someone to pull up an example of heroes for whom romance is a significant subplot, they get married (by default, resolving that subplot), and continue to be compelling thereafter as main, central characters of the story. So we can talk about how that was handled and why it worked.
Hey?
Cheers
Easy. Honor Harrington from David Weber's Honor Harrington novels. Married, got a kid, and still going strong. |
| skychrome |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 22:31:48
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[And it wasn't for the sake of titillation either--I was trying to get across a real emotion in that scene. Friends do kiss friends, after all--at least, in the FR they do.
Oh don't worry, although I do not really fancy romance stuff in novels, this was actually quite a good scene that had nothing cheap about it. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 22:15:16
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I mean, really- don't most lawyers have some sort of "trophy-wife" to schmaltz around town with?
While I understand the perception that might lead to this view being prevalent*, what lawyers, particularly the most successful, seem in the main to have, in my experience, is ex-wives.
Their non-superpowered and non-combative jobs are stressful enough so that few relationships endure the long hours, preoccupied demeanour at home and career-orientated priorities.
I imagine that being both handicapped and the frequent target of murderous psychopath could only compound this problem in the case of Daredevil.
This also has applications in the realm of Realms fiction (see what I did there?). It is likely that most relationships eventually end, particularly ones contracted in haste and excitement, so married characters need not necessary mean an end to conflict or drama.
I'll be the last to praise the series The Last Mythal, but among the few touches of versimilitude in that was the engaged couple who found they had grown apart. Always good to see an alternative to the trite and saccharine cycle of 'boy-meets-girl, will-they-won't-they, something-comes-between-them, problem-solved-by-True-Love and Happily-Ever-After'.
*Indeed, my father's wife could fit the image some people have of a 'trophy wife', seeing as she is younger than him and does not work, spending her time mainly on lunches, shopping, yoga, housekeeping (not housework, mind you, that's what nannies and cleaners are for) and volunteering for her preferred political party. It doesn't make her less of a person, though, given that pursuing a socially accepted Career is not an accurate meter for personal worth. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 21:38:05
Good example, SC. (I'm totally not biased or anything!)
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
(although you could not resist to...er...give her some action with Fox)
Oh I certainly "could" have resisted--I just chose not to.
And it wasn't for the sake of titillation either--I was trying to get across a real emotion in that scene. Friends do kiss friends, after all--at least, in the FR they do.
Cheers |
| skychrome |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 21:15:29
Hi Erik, my five cents on the topic:
I think the becoming irrelevant due to marriage is simply a migration from real world to fantasy settings. Marriage being the end sounds negative but in real life it isnt't. As Faeraer pointed out, it just means a shift in priorities and maturity and I perceive it as positive in real life, but it does not really thrill me in fantasy novels.
Let's take for example your two characters from DoM: the elf priestess and her... hm.. sick husband or fiancee (who dies first I think), do not remember the names. The pure fact of them being a couple instead of single characters made them less interesting for me. Not because of lack of new romance plots (although you could not resist to...er...give her some action with Fox), but because couples and especially the married ones tend to behave more responsible because they have to find a more common denominator for two people now instead of just themselves. Now running around with a broadsword and being permanently in danger of running into a red dragon does not really comply with "responsible behaviour", thus marriages of adventurers tend to be less credible unless you manage to disconnect your real world perceptions from them.
I prefer single characters who are more credible in doing irresponsible or unpredictive things.
If you belong to people however who find it credible that female characters in D&D can also have strength 23 and wrestle down an ogre, then I do not see the dificulty of having an interesting couple of married adventurers doing relevant stuff in a novel.
It is just a matter of reader's perceptions/ability of disassociation if it works or not. I do not see that there is a common method how to resolve this "problem". |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 21:08:38
Off topic to answer AI's question: "woman in a refrigerator" syndrome refers to female characters whose entire purpose for existence is to affect corresponding male characters (usually enrich a backstory or provide motivation) by their (often horrific) deaths. Named after a Green Lantern comic in which the hero's girlfriend was, indeed, murdered and stuffed in GL's refrigerator as a grisly surprise.
Talks about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators
And personally I was always partial to Black Widow as a romantic foil for Daredevil, but she was smart enough to get out of town before the murderous editorial pen could get a lock on her.
Cheers! |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 20:50:59
*blinks innocently* I don't know what you're talking about, sir! But yeah, i get your drift about DD's many wives. I've always wished he would just find a nice stable girl he can come home to and toss the stick aside for a bit. I mean, really- don't most lawyers have some sort of "trophy-wife" to schmaltz around town with? He should, lol! (kidding.) I kind of got disgusted with the re-boot on Spidey, simply because it just made him seem so lame afterwards, living with his Aunt again at age 30-something, no relationship, acting like he was still in high school/college and had no worries (read- responsibilities). It turned him into a total loser yutz, rather than restore the "swinging single loveable dork" of years agone. Pathetic. Some of the stories were good, I admit, but as a character, I had lost a lot of respect for him. And the new villains? Mostly, yick!! (Freak was just dumb, andPaper Doll was just too sad for words....) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 20:32:29
Also note: Generally speaking, porn has nothing to do with romantic tension and is really a whole 'nother discussion.
One that tends to get sealed pretty fast when we start it, eh mods?
Cheers |
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