| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| John Smith |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 00:01:16
IMC, Lucifer was the first ruler of Hell, thrown out by God after their "blow-up". (This was a long time ago...) When Lucifer got bored of running Hell, he decided to freelance and explore the Multiverse, turning control of Hell over to his right-hand, fellow fallen angel, Satan. (Who by the way was "shown the door" by the Arch-Angel Michael). After Satan got tired of running Hell, he too decided to freelance and explore the Multiverse, turning Hell over to Asmodeus, who, by the way, now runs things "down there". They leaked out the "Politics of Hell" (Dragon magazine article) story to cover their tracks. However, Asmodeus still reports to Satan, who in turn reports to Lucifer. [Lucifer is the first EVIL and the most powerful EVIL there is.] This version is rather Roman Catholic in nature but it works for me. Does anyone else use either Satan and/or Lucifer in their campaigns? (And no, they are not the same person. After 12 years of Catholic School, I'm pretty sure they are different.)  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 17:34:09
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
@ Maruluthu Mistrivvin: I realize that most of the lore in the Guide to Hell can be largely ignored, but there are some very interesting tidbits.
it did a good job on adding more detail to their personalities
quote:
Also, if one follows a path of worship with Asmodeus, should they not feel that their master was "wrongly accused" or "cast down" in some way? That's really what I took from the whole thing, that and it provides a way for a LE Devilish "divne/Unholy" conduit for spellcasters.
I don't think that Asmodeus would reveal his past, that he would tolerate the story that somebody had the power to ''cast him down'', not sure, and it's just from LN to LE, he wasn't really an angel
does he grant spells? think Tiamat (or Set) does it for him, that's why they are tolerated, he focused on weakening the planes through disbelief and supports atheists, like in that saying, the greatest trick the devil pulled ...
I totally agree about the adding to the personalities (that was the biggest part I took from that book). As to whether Asmo would reveal his past, I think it's a good possibility he would have something to bring to those who feel exiled or downtrodden to help them get revenge.
As to whether he grants the spells or some other deity grants the spells... I have a problem with ANY deity allowing worship to another being & granting them spells. My viewpoint is that Asmo's true form is a deity on par with Ao, in as much as he doesn't require worship (pre-required worship deity), or he is an Ancient Baatorian. Due to the various contracts throughout the hells, he allows some of his powers to go to other Lords of the Nine, as part of keeping the Ancient Baatorians at bay, whom he despises for some reason (validating my thoughts that Asmo may possibly be an Ancient Baatorian, once their existance is accepted as fact). Ancient Baatorians' powers are little known, and it's perfectly possible they could grant spells to "worshippers" in order to gain even more power through allies.
There are so many theories that I could go into here, but suffice to say I don't accept that deities grant power to any "lesser" beings, be it Lords of the Nine, Demon Princes, the Talisis's Guardinals, the Celestial Hebdomad, or even the Court of Stars. I just can't believe it, myself.
Anyhoo, that's a minor threadjack... Sorry guys.
/d |
| lowtech |
Posted - 07 Mar 2009 : 07:29:33
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
You might also consider looking at Dicefreaks - The Gates of Hell.
I third that-its truly an outstanding "book". |
| Marc |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 19:30:34
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
@ Maruluthu Mistrivvin: I realize that most of the lore in the Guide to Hell can be largely ignored, but there are some very interesting tidbits.
it did a good job on adding more detail to their personalities
quote:
Also, if one follows a path of worship with Asmodeus, should they not feel that their master was "wrongly accused" or "cast down" in some way? That's really what I took from the whole thing, that and it provides a way for a LE Devilish "divne/Unholy" conduit for spellcasters.
I don't think that Asmodeus would reveal his past, that he would tolerate the story that somebody had the power to ''cast him down'', not sure, and it's just from LN to LE, he wasn't really an angel
does he grant spells? think Tiamat (or Set) does it for him, that's why they are tolerated, he focused on weakening the planes through disbelief and supports atheists, like in that saying, the greatest trick the devil pulled ...
|
| Alisttair |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 18:02:03
I think as long as all players at the gaming table are fine with using whatever names for the baddies, be it custom names or those derived from real world religions, is ok. I know a few people in my gaming group who wouldn't like facing Lucifer and would much rather face Orcus or somesuch. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 17:13:29
Well, as I put it above, I am not very fond of the idea that quite a lot of non-Christian deities are being put into a ... say bad perspective D&D-wise because of the use of their names in the Bible et al. While some of them were "demons" (et al in their respective cultures and faiths, not all were as downright "evil" as the D&D cosmology puts them. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 13:53:06
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Hm ... my point was that it is usually assumed that Satan and Lucifer are synonyms of "The Devil" and are not named as such (i.e. The Devil) in the Bible.
Basically, yeah, they are. Those names are listed in the Bible as such: Satan, pretty much in all versions, in all languages; and "Lucifer" in the Latin/Roman Catholic versions.
quote:
Synonyms for The Devil are abound methinks, ain't Asmodeus one of them? ... heck, I'm derailing this thread!?! MAybe it should be moved to off-off topic ... or I just check Wikipedia.
There are lots of various demonic names that are thrown around in the Bible (esp. the Apocrypha and the New Testament), most likely pilfered from other pagan faiths and brought into the lore of the early Jewish and Christian religions.
If it weren't already difficult enough to maintain a strict monotheistic system with the introduction of a single bad god, how difficult do you think it would be to explain away all these other various demons? Methinks it became expedient to explain them away as aspects, avatars, or synonyms of a single evil god: Satan, or SataNAS (much as the Bible god, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are known by sundry titles, such as "King", "Comforter", "Lamb", etc.).
Either that, or they are the one arch-baddy's henchmen (i.e., "angels"). This latter explanation suffers, though, when viewing stories in which the other-named demons figure prominently as some sort of would-be arch-baddy, but not Satan.
At some point, there was apparently a sort of "house cleaning" and the entity Satan rose to the top as the chosen arch-baddy.
Hosever, since the name "Satan" itself is an evolution of a title (Ha-SaTAN, or the Accuser), and apparently was not itself originally a proper given name, then whether you are a real-life believer or not, who can really know what this entity's real name ever was? What if the Satan personage is itself just an aspect or avatar of something/-one else?
This is why I think it's perfectly legit for gamers or lorers (lore-ers, lore-er-ers?  ) to liberally indulge their personal creativity and imagination in the devising of some sort of grand unifying theory of demonology/devilogy/satanology/asmodeology/etc.  |
| GoCeraf |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 05:37:42
I keep the Hells mostly intact, though I use Asmodeus' "read the fine print" creation myth as canon. I'm worried about perhaps adding in any Judeo-Christian references (other than those that are already there, such as the tone and naming schema for the devils), like Lucifer and Satan. I have, thus far, not had to look into that.
I also trying to bring back a lot of stuff that's not in the 3.5 source books, like the older edition devils. I've been a Dungeon or Dragon subscriber, so I've spent a lot of time doing that myself, but I have developed statistics for the Dark Eight. Their absence from the Fiendish Codex II is my only qualm with that duology. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 02:51:58
quote:
Originally posted by John Smith
My version of Hell starts with 1st Edition and takes elements from 2nd and 3rd and 3.5. I like all of the published material from 1st, 2nd 3rd and 3.5. I also like the treatment given to Hell by Dicefreaks' "The Gates of Hell".
I can deal with that. I just worry when I see this topic anywhere, as Sage has said, it can get... messy. I definitely like most everything written on the hells (my favorite lower plane, btw). I reference a number of sources for inspiration, although Planescape is probably the biggest. If one sees S- or L-, it's most likely as an "Aspect" or "Avatar" of Asmodeus. Which is kind of funny in my book, as Asmo himself is an Avatar of another deity. That whole web of lies around himself is wonderful, making the true master of the Nine a true mystery (a preference of mine since I first read Planescape's Hellish materials).
@ Maruluthu Mistrivvin: I realize that most of the lore in the Guide to Hell can be largely ignored, but there are some very interesting tidbits. Also, if one follows a path of worship with Asmodeus, should they not feel that their master was "wrongly accused" or "cast down" in some way? That's really what I took from the whole thing, that and it provides a way for a LE Devilish "divne/Unholy" conduit for spellcasters.
|
| Zanan |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 00:32:55
Hm ... my point was that it is usually assumed that Satan and Lucifer are synonyms of "The Devil" and are not named as such (i.e. The Devil) in the Bible. Synonyms for The Devil are abound methinks, ain't Asmodeus one of them? ... heck, I'm derailing this thread!?! MAybe it should be moved to off-off topic ... or I just check Wikipedia. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 00:21:05
Satan is one of the main characters in the Book of Job (and he is actually called "Satan", it's not a character merely assumed to be Satan). And as Faraer pointed out above (and as was touched on by Beast), he doesn't appear in that book to be quite the same figure as most people now imagine him. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 19:03:16
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
AFAIK, neither Lucifer nor Satan actually make it into the Bible, do they? Just outta interest.
NOTE: I apologize in advance if this steps on any toes, but I'm just trying to answer the question directly.
The Hebrew Bible features various theories of monotheism with a single god and the sources of evil, pain, and suffering. The other religions's gods are at times described as weak and ineffectual, at other times as dead, and at other times as imaginary. Over time, there apparently arose a very conscientious effort to prevent any sort of confusion with other polytheistic systems, which meant that there was no allegation of the existence of a devil or demon. Evil is said to be a form of divine punishment from the one god, even in the form of lesser divine beings sent down to make people miserable on the god's behalf.
Ha-SaTAN, or "The Accuser" or "The Adversary", was apparently an angel sent to identify and accuse people of wrongdoing, in preparation for eventual divine punishment. (You can think of him as a sort of prosecuting attorney for the state, only in religious terms.)
Understandably, this would tend to make him not a very popular sort of fellow in Hebrew literature or legend.
When the southern division of Israel, Judah, was conquered by the Persians, and later occupied by the heavily-Persian-influenced Greeks, some sort of transition took place in the cosmology and basic theistic system. People were no longer thought to simply go to a vague SheOL or Hades afterlife, but were given the option of a sweet Paradise or Elysium, or a hellish Gehenna or TartaROS. Ha-SaTAN became simply "SaTAN": a proper name of an individual personage, and the arch-baddy. The inter-testamental Apocrypha point out an evolving view of this character, as well as other individually named devils/demons. By the time of the Christian New Testament, "SataNAS" was essentially an evil god or foil, being blamed for all that goes badly in the world.
"Lucifer" is a Roman Catholic/Latin translation of an obscure Hebrew reference to a Mesopotamian deity ("HeLEL"), who one of the prophets insulted by claiming the deity had been knocked from the heavens down to Earth. Apparently this made a convenient origin tale for the redactors of the SaTAN character, of a sort. (Question: if the SaTAN character fell from the heavens to become the nemesis of the god character, then why is he described as dutifully working for the god in the Hebrew scriptures, setting humans up for punishment? When did this supposed fall take place: before the rise of man, or after?)
At any rate, the notion of the SaTAN character being revised midstream and blown up into something much bigger and badder is interesting in that it could very well serve as the basis for you guys' alternate cosmologies of Hell in D&D and the Realms. If real-world theologians could evolve the Devil, then why can't you? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 21:33:07
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
AFAIK, neither Lucifer nor Satan actually make it into the Bible, do they?
They do, though not exactly as in later Christian theology or literature. |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 19:07:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I wouldn't put Satan in without the Judeo-Christian god, who hardly fits the heavily polytheist Realms (except perhaps far behind the scenes). I like the way Gary used the Christian trappings in D&D, but adding in the religion or theology behind them is a hybrid that doesn't appeal.
Though it's not something I'd do for a lot of reasons, Ao -- or his master -- could be the Judeo-Christian God. It's about the only way I see to port Christianity over in any degree.
I sorta treat Ao the same way. Though in my campaign, that makes the lord of Hell actually in opposition with the gods as a means of combatting Ao indirectly... since Ao is too powerful to challenge head on. This makes it all the more appropriate for archdevils to try stealing souls and worshippers (whether by infernal pact or other means) away from the gods. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 11:56:54
AFAIK, neither Lucifer nor Satan actually make it into the Bible, do they? Just outta interest. Me - being brought up in "Communist" East Germany - having near to no deeper knowledge about that book and all. Obviously, having an utterly "materialistic" view on the matter puts all the religious stuff going on in this day and age into a very unkindly perspective - with regards to any monotheistic faith.
Anyway, as we are dealing with D&D, the rather lame usage of all sorts of "evil" real world "figures" to describe the Core fiend lords and a lot of "evil" deities (Hecate, lives in one of the Nine Hells) does annoy me too. Hence I rather use synonyms or aliases for them than "discredit" the real world deity/figure it refers to even more.
|
| Faraer |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 10:32:58
A few of the D&D archdevils and dukes of Hell derive from the Bible, but more of them are from the larger sphere of Christian demonology and medieval grimoire lore -- a lot seem to come straight from the Lesser Key of Solomon, but I don't know what Gary's direct sources were. (Gustav Davidson's 1967 Dictionary of Angels: including the fallen angels is still the best single-volume reference on the subject.) The demon lords are made up by Gary or taken from a catholic range of mythological, folkloric and historical references (Hebrew, Mesopotamian, Russian, etc.). |
| Jakk |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 09:19:38
This is interesting stuff. I'm looking for original sources for names of archdevils and demon lords named in various D&D sources; I'm sure that some of them are original creations of E.G.G. and others, but I know that some of them are fallen angels, etc. from Judeo-Christian theology, which is not my strong suit. Can anyone direct me to book/chapter/verse where such entities are mentioned/identified? Thanks! |
| Marc |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 19:53:40
Dispater and Meph, I think they were baatezu from the start.
The Politics of Hell article from Dragon is not D&D mythology and is completely inconsistent with the history of Baator. I like to combine various mythologies but in this case not worth bothering.
I think Lucifer is mentioned as an alias of Beherit, who ruled the 6th layer before Moloch and Baalzebul (even mentioned in Elminster in Hell), destroyed by Asmodeus. Also fallen ''angels'' weren't the first rulers of Hell, the Ancient Baatorians were there first or the law-tainted loths.
The Guide to Hell with Ahriman and Jazirian is a crappy book, where the author didn't do his research well, and ignored a lot of previous lore. Full of Baatezu propaganda. Personally I prefer the myths where Chaos, Good, Evil and possibly Balance have an equal share in the formation of the multiverse, just involving Law is too monolithic and boring. I'd never base the cosmology on the catholicism, not cause it's blasphemous, but it would be too constricting, black and white. Especially not like MT where Abyss has a single ruler, even Mechanus shouldn't be like that imho.
I haven't used Lucifer or Satan, doubt I will, they don't inspire mystery in PCs like other mythological entities. They're too ''mundane''.
They are in my alternate multiverse creation myths though.
One of the earliest races were the helions, fiery-aerial predecessors of the exemplars of law. They had serpentine or humanoid forms (more like shamanic archetypes). There are five ages of the sun, like in the mayan myths, cycles of the death and rebirth of the Phoenix. This is a little similar to Marvel. Also it's connected with the formation of the elements, it happened in the age of the Second Sun, Lucifer represents phosphorus, sulfur his fall. The multiverse is a bit gnostic, the progenitor is the primal force of domination, Ialdabaoth (LE). Lucifer is a concept, representing the occult knowledge (path of power), it's a tool of baatezu corruption. Whether there are any incarnations of it today is unknown. Once in the age of the Second Sun there was a helion, a champion of the Phoenix, who purged that sacred knowledge from a draeden (Ilsensine). After reaching the Source (Ialdabaoth) he realized the futility of it all. After that he fell into the hands of not so primal, but more pure and developed evils ('loths), they dissected him. It's possible that he reincarnated into the opposite of that apathetic form, Lathander.
Satan is the chaotic side/aspect of Set, I'm using the egyptian mythology on this rather than some other semitic, cause it's older. Set wasn't originally evil but was corrupted and is occasionaly possessed by Apep who is imprisoned in the Wells of Darkness (73rd layer of Abyss). |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 18:31:18
Slightly OT but I like the scenario given in 3.5's Fiendish Codex II. The one in which Asmodeus, Dispater, and Mephistoles were all angels/celestials originally (as were some of the devils) who were sent to battle the hordes of the Abyss.
This ends up twisting them until they eventually become the fiends we all know and loathe. It just sounds and feels 'right' to me.
BTW, something else, what's this 'Reconciliation' or whatever it was that involved Asmodeus abdicating the throne for a while, before returning and changing everything around in the Nine Hells? And now he's a god too... say, this sounds sort of like what Lolth did, doesn't it? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 18:27:14
I was bit of a fraud, looking back, but at the time I thought I was doing it for the right reasons.
Amazing how 'hindsight' can make you realize what a jaack@ss you were at certain times.
At least it gave me enough of a footing to actually be able to argue with all those 'door-knockers' that come around. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 18:23:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, I am fortunate enough to not only run a game for people who are woefully ignorant when it comes to the Realms, but woefully ignorant of religion as well. 
I can get anything past them.
Anyway, if you 're-interpret' certain things in the Judaeo-Christian Mythos into D&D terminology, its not so hard, really. There is only one, true 'GOD' (whatever you want to call him - Ao's "boss"), and deities become 'acrhangels' of various power-levels. Hierarchy-wise, it all works out the same - its just a matter of semantics.
Personal Fact: I spent a year training to be a minister when I was 16 - I bet none of you would have ever guessed that.
Not hard to belive at all. After all , many types of "religions" have ministers!  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 18:15:50
Well, I am fortunate enough to not only run a game for people who are woefully ignorant when it comes to the Realms, but woefully ignorant of religion as well.
I can get anything past them.
Anyway, if you 're-interpret' certain things in the Judaeo-Christian Mythos into D&D terminology, its not so hard, really. There is only one, true 'GOD' (whatever you want to call him - Ao's "boss"), and deities become 'acrhangels' of various power-levels. Hierarchy-wise, it all works out the same - its just a matter of semantics.
Personal Fact: I spent a year training to be a minister when I was 16 - I bet none of you would have ever guessed that.
|
| Hawkins |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 18:10:07
You might also consider looking at Dicefreaks - The Gates of Hell. It is a free supplement that details the layers of Hell in depth. I personally try to avoid using Judeo-Christian beliefs in my campaigns since they are fictional worlds in which the universe (or multiverse) was created differently than our own. Also, this can be a point of heated debate, even if all of the participants are Christian (like in my RP group). |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 05:25:33
@ Markus: I like the picture you used for Mechanus. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 04:28:11
Actually, I've managed to marry the D&D Cosmology to the Christian one fairly well - my universe even begins with "Let their be light". Then I have Cthulhu, and Ahriman and Jaziriaan, and then Ptah and Ymir and Chronepsis, etc, etc...
I managed to blend them all together, so that each mythos still 'works' within in own context, and yet is part of the larger whole.
And as for Lucifer coming before Satan - U'Doh! Anyone who has seen Little Nicky can tell you that.
I just don't think Lucifer really looked like Rodney Dangerfield (the rest of hell was kinda cool though).
I have all three of them ruling, and Hades is the same guy as Lucifer. Here is a pic of my cosmology. Note that the whole lower half is consider 'Hell', and the entire upper half is considered 'Heaven'.
I have seven heavens (spread over three planes), Nine Hells (also spread over three planes), Limbo and Nirvana - one 'slice' for each alignment, and Concordant Oposition (The Outlands) for True Neutral.
Asmodeus rules in Baator
Lucifer rules in The Grey Waste
Satan rules in the Abyss
Note that Satan is diametrically opposed to Mount Celestia - the other two 'big bads' don't really oppose the 'good guys' so much.
I also don't use the Blood War <Gasp!> Demons and Devils will usually fight when they see each other, and some higher-ups hold grudges and go after the 'other guy', but no more so then they all go after each other all the time anyway. My version of the Blood War is more like a single conflict amongst an infinite number always taking place.
As you can see, my version of the Great Wheel has been chopped down, which effects any Planescape stuff I want to use, but its fairly simple fitting everything into what I got there.
I also use Fiends and deities from Comics (mostly Marvel), as well as certain movies and shows, and other settings (including novels), so my cosmology is both very crowded and yet still more simplified.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 03:23:25
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I wouldn't put Satan in without the Judeo-Christian god, who hardly fits the heavily polytheist Realms (except perhaps far behind the scenes). I like the way Gary used the Christian trappings in D&D, but adding in the religion or theology behind them is a hybrid that doesn't appeal.
Though it's not something I'd do for a lot of reasons, Ao -- or his master -- could be the Judeo-Christian God. It's about the only way I see to port Christianity over in any degree. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 02:23:18
I wouldn't put Satan in without the Judeo-Christian god, who hardly fits the heavily polytheist Realms (except perhaps far behind the scenes). I like the way Gary used the Christian trappings in D&D, but adding in the religion or theology behind them is a hybrid that doesn't appeal. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 01:33:55
There is a kind of underlying story in Necromancer Games Tome of Horrors products about Lucifer and a few of the arch devils that followed him into exile. They name an alternate plane that Lucifer took over and that is essentially trying to undermine the Nine Hells. I'm not sure if there are any other details on that particular planar structure in any other Necromancer Games products. |
| John Smith |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 01:03:45
To you Darkmeer, the following ............ After spending alot of $$$ on 3rd Edition and 3.5 Edition, I have zero interest in 4th edition. It is only a matter of time unitl 4.5 or 5th edition comes out and then you have to re-buy all of your books. What a waste! Anyways, lest I digress, back to my original article......... My version of Hell starts with 1st Edition and takes elements from 2nd and 3rd and 3.5. I like all of the published material from 1st, 2nd 3rd and 3.5. I also like the treatment given to Hell by Dicefreaks' "The Gates of Hell". |
| John Smith |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 00:55:18
In response to the Sage, I understand that this is a GAME. I would not think of pressing my real-world beliefs on anyone. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 00:37:23
I'm just placing a friendly Mod warning here and now, since this topic looks like it could potentially delve a little too deeply into the often conflicted viewpoints of world religions. So let's try and keep the discussion within a D&D context, and keep the real-world religious coverage to a minimum.
|
|
|
