| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 19:40:42
Has anyone ever run across some good rules for fighting from Chariots?
I was playing Total War: Rome a little bit ago and started a game as the Egyptians...and Chariots rock!
But I'm realizing I can't find anything in D&D (of any version) that puts forth rules for fighting from a Chariot.
I would appreciate any help...as well as mention of cultures in FR besides the Old Empires that might use Chariots still in battle.
Thanks all. |
| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 20:30:37
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Icelander, I have to say I'm always really impressed with your responses. They're always well thought out and articulated, and seem well-researched. Do you have a background in middle ages and earlier history?
Only as a hobby. I'm a lawyer by education.
I did select a focus in Latin and Ancient History between the age of 16-20, rough equivalent to a collage minor in the US, I suppose. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 20:27:38
I saw part of a documentary a while back on chariot combat. The only part I remember was focusing on chariot archers. The idea was to get a large (ie: 15-20, I think) number of two-person chariots running in an endless loop a lot like a modern track field, though obviously somewhat larger, in front of the enemy formations. Those driving toward the enemy would shoot arrows until they turned and no longer bore, then on the back side of the loop they would refill quivers, tend to wounds, and have a minute to rest their arms. Then they swing back around toward the enemy and start shooting arrows again.
The end result from the point of view of the enemy was a constant stream of arrows from the charioteers, while most of the archers remained out of range, and even if they managed to take one out, or wound them, it didn't particularly slow the barrage. And if you had a large number of chariots, a general could set up several of these archery loops all along the battlefield to help kill and unnerve the enemy.
This far removed, I can't remember who the scholar was, or what sources he was siteing in support of his theory, but I do remember the interesting formation.
Icelander, I have to say I'm always really impressed with your responses. They're always well thought out and articulated, and seem well-researched. Do you have a background in middle ages and earlier history? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 16:59:59
In real history, chariots mostly existed in cultures where horses were too small to carry cavalry and/or few people were good at riding them. Before good saddles and stirrups, riding horses into combat was not at all easy.
The leading scholarship on chariots now has them mostly as a conveyance for noble-born heroes to enter the battlefield in style and comfort. In these very early days of warfare, battles often boiled down to individual duels or small clashes of arms between champions of opposite sides and the chariots provided a way for them to reach each other faster than the marching commoners could move.
At the end of the era of the chariot, the development of composite recurve or reflex bows made an archer who could combine a fairly stable platform for shooting with the option of mobility greater than walking actually rather useful. While chariot soldiers remained an elite of high social standing, they became numerous and were used to slaughter and break ranks of common infantry as well as to carry the champions to their duels.
Contrary to many inaccurate presentations in popular history and art, charging into a group of infantry with your chariot is usually not a good idea. It doesn't matter how many scythes or spikes you put on the chariot, the fact remains that two horses* still have to run into the enemy soldiers. And if they are disciplined and stand there to receive it, with spears set and shields interlocked, the horses will shy away. It's extremely hard to train an animal to run into sharp points and seemingly solid barriers. In fact, most animals will not even attempt to learn that lesson.
Chariots were good against infantry that would break when accomplished archers started killing men in the front ranks and then swept down on them in a dramatic charge of chariots. Broken infantry died, disciplined infantry would have lived and slaughtered the charioteers. What made the chariots effective despite that was that in this early era of warfare, infantry was mostly composed of simple farmers conscripted for a short campaign. Not only did they lack equipment, training and experience, but they would often enough have little reason to risk death for the enrichment of some noble they barely knew. It would take professional infantry to stand against such a charge and professional infantry was rare to the point of non-existence at the time when chariots were used on the battlefield.
The moment real cavalry appears in battlefields, chariots were doomed to obsolescence. Cavalry does the same thing chariots did, which is move around the battlefield faster than marching men as well as potentially panic infantry and kill them while they run, but it does it with less capital investment and better strategic mobility (no chariots to lug to the battlefield). Not to mention that in a clash between chariots and cavalry, the cavalry have a huge advantage of maneuverability, speed and less reliance on terrain features.
Both Rome: Total War** and those chariot rules I've seen for D&D make the mistake of trying to have chariots remain a viable choice on a battlefield with professional infantry as well as real cavalry. That's not how they work. They are not an alternate choice, with their own strength and weaknesses, they are a prior technology superseded by new battlefield technologies and tactics.
If a DM wants them to work at all like the tanks they are portrayed as being in Rome: Total War and many other sources, he'd do better to make them fantastic weapons than relate them to real chariots. Replace the horses pulling them with fiendish or otherwise supernatural beasts that can charge into prepared infantry. Maybe even have them be skeletons armoured in spiked and scythed armour?
*Probably not all that large and unlikely to be armoured, as that would cost astronomical amounts and would also all-but negate the mobility advantage of having a chariot in the first place.
**While it has elements of realism, there are also elements of fantasy and/or poor scholarship. Having chariots in an army of Ptolemic Egyptians is an example of pure fantasy and nonsensical military science. The idea is about as sensible as a modern state fielding inefficient steamtanks armed with black powder rockets against main battle tanks. |
| Fingal |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 00:29:09
The old Historical source-book 'The Glory of Rome' has rules for chariot racing. While most of the combat parts are really meant for stealing an advantage over your rival they could definitely be extended to proper combat. Buy it anyway - it's a great book! My first love is Roman history and I'm currently looking at using this as a guideline for a straight campaign set in ancient Rome. There's something about a PC walking the streets of Alexandria or Pompeii that rivals adventures in Waterdeep for me...
Anyways...I digress. The rules aren't 3e of course, but they are fairly simple and it shouldn't be that hard to update them. Hope they help! |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 18:44:56
-The Hamunaptra setting, a pseudo-Ancient Egypt, has rules on chariots and chariot combat, I believe. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 04:10:31
Sword and fist eh?
Thanks for all the help folks! |
| scererar |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 03:14:10
both are actual D&D supplemental source books. |
| Green Giant |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 02:23:51
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Yay! Found this by Tom Costa over at Eric Boyd's place: http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html
Nice stuff...and for 3.5 as well.
-----------------
Updated Feat
Chariot Combat [Fighter, General]
You are skilled in chariot combat.
Prerequisite: Handle Animal 1 rank.
Benefit: Once per round when either of your steeds is hit in combat, you may attempt a Handle Animal check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Handle Animal check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Handle Animal check becomes the steed’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the steed’s regular AC).
This feat originally appeared along with other “chariot” feats in Sword and Fist and has been updated to 3.5E. Additional vehicle combat rules appeared in the Arms and Equipment Guide (and Dragon Magazine #294).
----------
I don't have most of these references sources at my disposal unfortunately. I never bought the Sword and Fist book. Can anyone give me any insight?
Thanks again!
Some of the feats found in Sword and Fist are similar to the Mounted Combat chain feat. Ex. Mounted Combat - Chariot Combat, Mounted Archery - Chariot Archery, Trample - Chariot Trample, Ride-By Attack - Chariot Sideswipe, and Spirited Charge - Chariot Charge. Just substitute Handle Animal for Ride skill. |
| Green Giant |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 02:18:52
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Has anyone ever run across some good rules for fighting from Chariots?
I was playing Total War: Rome a little bit ago and started a game as the Egyptians...and Chariots rock!
But I'm realizing I can't find anything in D&D (of any version) that puts forth rules for fighting from a Chariot.
I would appreciate any help...as well as mention of cultures in FR besides the Old Empires that might use Chariots still in battle.
Thanks all.
Sword and Fist (3.0) has rules of how to handle and fight from a chariot as well as chariot feats. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 02:12:32
Yay! Found this by Tom Costa over at Eric Boyd's place: http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html
Nice stuff...and for 3.5 as well.
-----------------
Updated Feat
Chariot Combat [Fighter, General]
You are skilled in chariot combat.
Prerequisite: Handle Animal 1 rank.
Benefit: Once per round when either of your steeds is hit in combat, you may attempt a Handle Animal check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Handle Animal check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Handle Animal check becomes the steed’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the steed’s regular AC).
This feat originally appeared along with other “chariot” feats in Sword and Fist and has been updated to 3.5E. Additional vehicle combat rules appeared in the Arms and Equipment Guide (and Dragon Magazine #294).
----------
I don't have most of these references sources at my disposal unfortunately. I never bought the Sword and Fist book. Can anyone give me any insight?
Thanks again! |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 01:11:37
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Nobody?
I was afraid of that...
Are there any rules for any sort of moving platform besides horses?
Aventurer's Vault has some information on Vehicles in combat, crashing and ramming, movment, etc.
A Light Chariot is stated out as one of the example vehicles
Is that the AV on Wizards?
Do you have a link?
EDIT: DOH! I have this 4e book! LOL 
I was kinda hoping for earlier sources...but this is cool. |
| scererar |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 01:09:06
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Nobody?
I was afraid of that...
Are there any rules for any sort of moving platform besides horses?
Aventurer's Vault has some information on Vehicles in combat, crashing and ramming, movement, etc.
A Light Chariot is stated out as one of the example vehicles.
Additionally the 3.x Arms and Equipment - chapter 3, covers vehicles in combat, etc.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 26 Nov 2008 : 00:58:41
Nobody?
I was afraid of that...
Are there any rules for any sort of moving platform besides horses? |
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